Erfworld Thread VI: +10 vs Fat Guys From Ohio

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Erfworld (www.erfworld.com) is an online comic about a table top gamer named Parson Gotti that is summoned from our world to the world of Erf, a world based on its own rules that function similarly to a table top game. This makes Parson a valuable player in a game that may very well threaten his life. Does he want to go back to his own world at all, or is this world the perfect place for a gamer such as himself? Is he really dreaming? Will he be there forever? Who knows! What we DO know is that in this world, the pieces are living things, and the stakes cannot be higher. Join Parson on this wild ride filled with real world (or to the Erfworlders - Stupid World) references and puns, gaming homages and glory, fate and chance.

Previous incarnations:
GitP: Erfworld Forum section (Locked) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=47)
Erfworld thread I (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178724)
Erfworld thread II: Finally thinking with portals, over a year later (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=268156)
Erfworld thread III: As the Erf Turns (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=313967)
Erfworld thread IV: In Memory of King Saline (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?374757-Erfworld-thread-IV-In-memory-of-King-Saline)
Erfworld thread V: Baddie Will Not Post In Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?416285-Erfworld-thread-V-Baddie-Will-Not-Post-In-Thread)

Currently we are on page 108 of Book 3.

Also, please SPOILER your comments for the first three posts about an update that has occurred.

[DataNinja]

Parson under Wanda's control? That sounds like a terrible idea. If that happens I give Gobwin Knob one turn (plus the time a enemy needs to arrive) until it falls. Unless Parson pulls a Ossomer there is nothing left to prevent Wanda's bad plans.

One turn seems overly optimistic. I wouldn't be surprised if they ended up having some sort of civil war if Stanley disagrees... And Stanley doesn't have an heir.

[MReav]

Ossomer didn't need one turn and he didn't have any Fate Hax. Granted, I don't think Wanda will let Parson out of her sight but Fate would probably conspire against her in that regard.

[guttering flame]

I don't see how Lilith can possibly overcome the gauntlet Charlie is setting up against her in the Portal room.

[NEO|Phyte]

I don't see how Lilith can possibly overcome the gauntlet Charlie is setting up against her in the Portal room.

That gauntlet is for Parson, not Lilith. As for how, my guess is that if/when Charlie realizes exactly what Lilith is trying to do, he will 'let' her make it to the portal, then hose down portal park with his tripods.

[eschmenk]

I don't see how Lilith can possibly overcome the gauntlet Charlie is setting up against her in the Portal room.

I don't know how Lilith could get past the lock, but Lilith might be able to deactivate a lot of the equipment by disconnecting the cables leading to the equipment. Maybe she could even find a circuit breaker box. That might at least make Charlescomm panic and attack her. OTOH, I'm not sure that she could do it or would know enough to try.

[Killer Angel]

I approve the thread's title. :smallsmile:



Also, please SPOILER your comments for the first three posts about an update that has occurred.

I agree. Let's keep this as "official" rule for this thread.

[-D-]

Boring new comic is boring.

[eschmenk]

So, some good information, then it gets frustratingly vague again.

So, Parson has to actually kill Charlie somehow, rather than just make the necessary plans or order someone else to do it and, but he could use a weapon other than a sword? Yes? No?

[guttering flame]

I like the art in the last two panels :smallsmile:

[Lethologica]

I wonder just how specific the prophecies are.


What's 'Cholly'? (first panel)
Charlie.

[Ravenlord]

Good god, seeing Wanda get a much-needed head-whackin' feels way better than it should.

[Mobius Twist]

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51J0-jQmddL._SX391_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

[Yanagi]

Last panel.

Anybody else look at how the dialogue and the image suggest that the alternative to the sword is the healing scroll Marie is proffering?

[eschmenk]

Good god, seeing Wanda get a much-needed head-whackin' feels way better than it should.

Really? To me, she came out of this rather well, considering.


Last panel.

Anybody else look at how the dialogue and the image suggest that the alternative to the sword is the healing scroll Marie is proffering?

I don't think so. Marie just seemed to be waving the hand that happened to have the scroll in it. She actually pointed to Parson with it two panels earlier and that didn't mean anything. Also in the first panel she is holding it in nearly the same way as she is in the last.

But I think the cloak isn't doing much good. Anyone could see that Marie was having an animated discussion with some people, and with GK's soldiers guarding them, it wouldn't be hard for anyone to figure out who it is.

ADDED: I suppose a tinfoil hat theory would be that Marie could be a traitor and is trying to point out the locations of Parson and Wanda, but that seems far-fetched to me.

[memnarch]

Last panel.

Anybody else look at how the dialogue and the image suggest that the alternative to the sword is the healing scroll Marie is proffering?

In the sense of healing something that's undead could kill it? Perhaps, but I think it's more of a hand gesture. I am wondering if the scroll is more of a "mass healing" thing since it wasn't time to use it when the only target is Maggie.

[ryuplaneswalker]

So, some good information, then it gets frustratingly vague again.

So, Parson has to actually kill Charlie somehow, rather than just make the necessary plans or order someone else to do it and, but he could use a weapon other than a sword? Yes? No?

I am not sure that the last comment about "It doesn't need to be a sword" is meant to be a serious comment about parson having to kill charlie himself, we are seeing that Marie is a little snarky here and there

[Mobius Twist]

I am not sure that the last comment about "It doesn't need to be a sword" is meant to be a serious comment about parson having to kill charlie himself, we are seeing that Marie is a little snarky here and there

Being vague is how predictomancers keep themselves in business.

[eschmenk]

Being vague is how predictomancers keep themselves in business.

...and sometimes authors?

If this goes on too much further, are people going to think it counts as trolling the readers? Do some people already think that?

[NEO|Phyte]

Being vague is how predictamancers keep themselves in business.

It's probably a combination of this, straight up not knowing the details, and the fact that advertising that they don't know the details of a prediction would be bad for business. Take Jillian's monologue to her tamed yellow dwagon during her time as Haffaton's fugitive. All Faq's predictamancer could tell her was that she would be ambushed that one turn. No clue where or when during the turn or by who or why or with what, just that it would happen.

[Mobius Twist]

...and sometimes authors?

If this goes on too much further, are people going to think it counts as trolling the readers? Do some people already think that?

As far as I'm concerned, that's par for the course for any entertainment medium. The average viewer of a high-end ballet performance won't know if some minutia of dance choreography is different from one night to the next or if the dancer stumbled slightly. An actor improvising a line on opening night doesn't stop the show and apologize to the audience if they don't catch on.

Web and print comics are a long-term writing medium unlike a once-off published book, but I feel that the writer doesn't have to know all the details in advance, even if they're being vague from a character's perspective. Sometimes the best stuff comes after analyzing the things you wrote earlier.

[Bobb]

"It's okay Wanda, now you know to follow orders and work for the good of your side. I'll do a little glaring at you after the immediate danger and then you'll be a valuable asset to the team yet again!"


:smallsigh:

[-D-]

"It's okay Wanda, now you know to follow orders and work for the good of your side. I'll do a little glaring at you after the immediate danger and then you'll be a valuable asset to the team yet again!"

Is that you Sarcastro?

[Welf]

Last panel.

Anybody else look at how the dialogue and the image suggest that the alternative to the sword is the healing scroll Marie is proffering?

Or maybe a scroll in general? Parsons till has the scroll from Charley that would send him back to earth. Maybe it can be used in Charley, too? It is interesting that the scroll is in the middle of the last panel, between the three of them.

[Kantaki]

Wanda looks a little bit annoyed in panel six. I don't think she likes what Parson, Jack and Marie have to say. Cheating FATE? You don't cheat FATE! Because it's FAAATE!:smallbiggrin:

I just hope Marie's comment that Parson doesn't have to use a sword doesn't mean he has to kill Charlie directly.

[eschmenk]

Wanda looks a little bit annoyed in panel six. I don't think she likes what Parson, Jack and Marie have to say. Cheating FATE? You don't cheat FATE! Because it's FAAATE!:smallbiggrin:

I thought it was more that Parson and Jack were making her look embarrassingly stupid because they were having no trouble figuring out what she hadn't been able to figure out.

[ryuplaneswalker]

I thought it was more that Parson and Jack were making her look embarrassingly stupid because they were having no trouble figuring out what she hadn't been able to figure out.

Wanda does not need Parson and Jack's help to look embarrassingly stupid.

[Kantaki]

I thought it was more that Parson and Jack were making her look embarrassingly stupid because they were having no trouble figuring out what she hadn't been able to figure out.

I don't know, to me it looks like Wanda is angry that the others - especially Jack - disagree with her. I don't think she likes the fact that one of her Decrypted disagrees with her.


Wanda does not need Parson and Jack's help to look embarrassingly stupid.

Well, yeah, but that it is easy doesn't mean the othes should let her do all the work.

[Kornaki]

Isn't the real point that if fate really insisted Charlie not die, the easiest way would be for one of the other archons in the room to take Lilith out first? Then they'd be rolling in a big pile of schmuckers instead of worrying about losing all their cities. That's like the second best outcome to actually killing Charlie. I don't see why the argument needs to be so complicated.

[eschmenk]

Wanda does not need Parson and Jack's help to look embarrassingly stupid.

I meant that they made her realize that it was happening.


I don't know, to me it looks like Wanda is angry that the others - especially Jack - disagree with her. I don't think she likes the fact that one of her Decrypted disagrees with her.

I don't think she looks all that angry. Compare the same of her eyebrows in the 6th and 8th panels with the 1st and 3rd. I'd say she looks more disappointed and stunned and probably a bit annoyed. To me isn't [it is] more of a "Huh? Wait, how could that be? Oh, that's not good news. This is not going well." I wouldn't be surprised if she is especially surprised and disappointed that even decryped Jack disagrees with her, though, so I agree with what you said about that; I just don't think I'm seeing much anger as such. (Anger might come later, though.)


Isn't the real point that if fate really insisted Charlie not die, the easiest way would be for one of the other archons in the room to take Lilith out first? Then they'd be rolling in a big pile of schmuckers instead of worrying about losing all their cities. That's like the second best outcome to actually killing Charlie. I don't see why the argument needs to be so complicated.

Well, that's basically what Marie said at the bottom of the previous page. Are you asking why Wanda didn't realize that? Wanda believed that if you try to do something that fate doesn't like, it will retaliate, so she had a knee-jerk reaction and didn't think of anything else. Basically, she panicked at the thought of angering fate and didn't think of things like money. She didn't know what fate would do as a punishment, but she thought it would be bad (something more than just keeping GK from killing Charlie). She was wrong, of course, but she didn't know that.

[Imgran]

Well that's what happens when you want to clam up and not let people know what you're thinking. It has a way of turning little mistakes into GREAT BIG HONKING mistakes.

Oh and since no one's mentioned it, Maggy looks so cute in Parson's arms. Childlike somehow.

[Killer Angel]

Any chance that Wanda actually will learn something?

[eschmenk]

Well that's what happens when you want to clam up and not let people know what you're thinking. It has a way of turning little mistakes into GREAT BIG HONKING mistakes.

Yeah, I can understand Wanda taking what Marie had told her too far, but yeah, he [she] definitely needed to let Parson know about Lilith being taken to Charlescomm before going into her trance.


Any chance that Wanda actually will learn something?

Of course! Whether or not she learns the right thing is another matter, though. :smallamused:

[-D-]

Any chance that Wanda actually will learn something?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YME40ObCkVI&index=16&t=11m1s

Parson: Now, Wanda what did we learn from this?
Wanda: Nothing!
Stanley: See? She can learn.

[Bobb]

Is that you Sarcastro?

No! I'm Derismo!


I don't like most people.

[Quild]

I somehow feel sad for Wanda. She was taught something in a wrong way and it came to bite her.
Preventing Lilith from attacking Charlie was the right thing to do if she was right about it going to fail.

But on another hand, I'm not sure it was "patience" with Fate that made her do several of her actions like leading Stanley to attack Faq.

[AgentPaper]

The way I see it, Wanda is a great example of why casters don't generally like to train other casters in their profession. It's like teaching someone how to make explosives. Sure, they can make them with just a bit of training, but ensuring that they learn enough to not be a danger to both themselves and everyone around them takes a lot longer, and might not even be possible with how casters seem to understand their field almost by instinct rather than by conscious thought.

Even worse when you teach someone like Wanda, who is too arrogant to understand that her rudimentary knowledge on any given field isn't everything there is to know about it.

[ryuplaneswalker]

New Comic

FREAKING CLIFFHANGER *Shakes fist*

[Kantaki]

I really hope Lilith's mission is successful. Getting out of Charlescomm alive would be nice too, but it seems rather unlikely.
Oh, well, friday we should know how wrong her little will go. Unless there is a jump to another storyline.

[-D-]

I really hope Lilith's mission is successful. Getting out of Charlescomm alive would be nice too, but it seems rather unlikely.
Oh, well, friday we should know how wrong her little will go. Unless there is a jump to another storyline.


I felt a disturbance, as if thousand readers went "Oh :smallfurious: !"

[eschmenk]

Fixed: [Since she's decrypted], Lilith would [not] need to eat in order to maintain her HP. It looks like she will have a couple of hot buns immediately after pulling the trigger, though.





http://i.imgur.com/RE3zVyE.gif

[DataNinja]

Eventually Lilith would need to eat in order to maintain her HP. It looks like she will have a couple of hot buns immediately after pulling the trigger, though.

Why would she need to eat? :smallconfused: She's decrypted. Don't they have no upkeep? And aren't meals part of upkeep?

[halfeye]

If Lilith triggers a lot of the traps, and the traps kill the other archeons, that counts as Charlescomm killing them not Gobwin Knob, doesn't it?

[Lethologica]

If Lilith triggers a lot of the traps, and the traps kill the other archeons, that counts as Charlescomm killing them not Gobwin Knob, doesn't it?
That's correct.

[eschmenk]

Why would she need to eat? :smallconfused: She's decrypted. Don't they have no upkeep? And aren't meals part of upkeep?

Good point. I was thinking more of the joke than anything else. It's fixed now.


If Lilith triggers a lot of the traps, and the traps kill the other archeons, that counts as Charlescomm killing them not Gobwin Knob, doesn't it?

I think that if she actually fires the RPG and its explosion adds anything to the blast, then GK pays, even if the blast is mostly explosive traps going off. But as long as the damage is exclusively due to the traps, then no.

[Kornaki]

I really hope Lilith's mission is successful. Getting out of Charlescomm alive would be nice too, but it seems rather unlikely.
Oh, well, friday we should know how wrong her little will go. Unless there is a jump to another storyline.


For whatever it's worth, Lilith can't pass through the portal. She's definitely not getting out alive, she can only hope for dying in a blaze of treaty violating glory.

[Douglas]

For whatever it's worth, Lilith can't pass through the portal. She's definitely not getting out alive, she can only hope for dying in a blaze of treaty violating glory.
I'm not entirely certain about that. It's possible that Archons, with all their specialized casting abilities, count as casters for the purpose of portal travel. Failing that, then yes her best hope is somehow arranging to die the death of a thousand cuts at the hands of Charlescomm, hitting Charlie's treasury once for each and every cut.

[halfeye]

I'm not entirely certain about that. It's possible that Archons, with all their specialized casting abilities, count as casters for the purpose of portal travel. Failing that, then yes her best hope is somehow arranging to die the death of a thousand cuts at the hands of Charlescomm, hitting Charlie's treasury once for each and every cut.
She levelled up, I wonder what skills or abilities she got, and whether she got to choose? With her situation, some choices might be very much better than others.

I'm wondering whether with stealth skills she could actually sneak out the long way?

[eschmenk]

I'm not entirely certain about that. It's possible that Archons, with all their specialized casting abilities, count as casters for the purpose of portal travel. Failing that, then yes her best hope is somehow arranging to die the death of a thousand cuts at the hands of Charlescomm, hitting Charlie's treasury once for each and every cut.

I very much doubt it. Lilith seemed convinced that that she could send the dead Archon's body through but she seemed certain that she couldn't go herself. It could be one of those things that units automatically know.

It would seem that if there was an exception for Archons, there probably would be many additional exceptions. We know that Altruist Elves and Lofty Elves can cast healomancy, for example. I doubt that so many exceptions would be allowed.

[Silva Stormrage]

She levelled up, I wonder what skills or abilities she got, and whether she got to choose? With her situation, some choices might be very much better than others.

I'm wondering whether with stealth skills she could actually sneak out the long way?

Can't Archons get dollamancy as a special? She could start creating a whole bunch of mini dolls. They can be completely terrible and worthless but have a BUNCH of them. Then scatter them and have them trigger a bunch of traps for money.

[Douglas]

Can't Archons get dollamancy as a special? She could start creating a whole bunch of mini dolls. They can be completely terrible and worthless but have a BUNCH of them. Then scatter them and have them trigger a bunch of traps for money.
Good idea, but she used the last of her Juice to dispel a Veil.

[eschmenk]

Good idea, but she used the last of her Juice to dispel a Veil.

As I understand the contract, she could have three turns to do something before being in violation of the agreement with Charlescomm.

[Killer Angel]

Fixed: [Since she's decrypted], Lilith would [not] need to eat in order to maintain her HP. It looks like she will have a couple of hot buns immediately after pulling the trigger, though.





http://i.imgur.com/RE3zVyE.gif

her poor, lovely bottom... :smalltongue:

[Quild]

her poor, lovely bottom... :smalltongue:

Considering Lilith's position, I actually was kinda sad that we don't see more of that bottom of her.

On another hand, I think that female were never drawn hyper sexualized in Erfworld.
Despite the stewardess look, archons are quite sober. No opulent chest with wide open cleavage, skirts aren't too short or tight.
Even when Lilith is tortured naked, we don't see anything more than when she's fully dressed.
I like that.

[Landis963]

Considering Lilith's position, I actually was kinda sad that we don't see more of that bottom of her.

On another hand, I think that female were never drawn hyper sexualized in Erfworld.
Despite the stewardess look, archons are quite sober. No opulent chest with wide open cleavage, skirts aren't too short or tight.
Even when Lilith is tortured naked, we don't see anything more than when she's fully dressed.
I like that.

They're the size of Stupidworld children. I think Rob, at least, would find it creepy to draw them as pint-sized sexpots.

[eschmenk]

They're the size of Stupidworld children. I think Rob, at least, would find it creepy to draw them as pint-sized sexpots.

The other thing is that they are supposed to be more professional than the Goyles and Skanks, who are similar (https://wiki.erfworld.com/TBFGK_Epilogue_17), but are vampires and more sexed up. So the Archons are more like stewardesses and the Goyles and Skanks are more like Elvira or Vampira.

[-D-]

They're the size of Stupidworld children. I think Rob, at least, would find it creepy to draw them as pint-sized sexpots.
Looks at Xin's pin ups. Yes... creepy.

That's just dwarfist :P They are essentially, sexy short people.

[Kantaki]

That is not good. If Parson is lucky that explosion was caused by one of Charlie's traps. Otherwise this might mean Gobwin Knob has even more enemies now. Even if not, Marie getting hit by that explosion can't be helpful.

[Kornaki]

That is not good. If Parson is lucky that explosion was caused by one of Charlie's traps. Otherwise this might mean Gobwin Knob has even more enemies now. Even if not, Marie getting hit by that explosion can't be helpful.

I feel like there has to be some understanding that if there's a battle in a city, it's your responsibility to not stand next to the portal and get hit by inadvertent fire. This can't be the first time something like this has happened

[Lentrax]

Well, then again, psychics tend to not be able to predict their own demises.

[eschmenk]

That is not good. If Parson is lucky that explosion was caused by one of Charlie's traps. Otherwise this might mean Gobwin Knob has even more enemies now. Even if not, Marie getting hit by that explosion can't be helpful.

I wouldn't be surprised if Marie thought it would be helpful and that's why she was standing there. "I don't mind sacrificing..." Even on the previous pages, it looked to me as if Marie was intentionally standing closer to the portal than anyone else. Charlie was worried about the ramifications of firing out through the portal. It would look like that's what he did and it looked as if he hurt a neutral MK caster in the process. If at least some of the damage was caused by Charlescomm mines, that would probably officially count as an attack by Charlescomm. I'm pretty sure that she knew more than what she was letting on, even if she didn't know about the explosion, and that most of her talking was just a way to keep Parson occupied.

Now I think we'll find out who Marie brought the healing scroll for. I was already pretty sure it wasn't for Maggie.

Oh, one more thing. I know some people wouldn't be happy with this, but if you look at the artwork, it's possible that Marie positioned herself in order to shield Wanda and Jack. I think Marie could have protected them by manipulating them to move instead, so that is a longshot, but I couldn't absolutely rule it out.

[Killer Angel]

I feel like there has to be some understanding that if there's a battle in a city, it's your responsibility to not stand next to the portal and get hit by inadvertent fire. This can't be the first time something like this has happened

It can't be so usual neither.
We're talking about secret weapons' effects and explosives.

[Gez]

It can't be so usual neither.
We're talking about secret weapons' effects and explosives.

Shockamancy can cause similar effects, and since objects can pass through, nothing we know prevents arrows, sling stones, crossbow bolts, knives, javelins, and other mundane projectiles from being thrown through a portal.

The secret weapons aren't important in that they can shoot projectiles or cause explosions, those things are not by themselves game-changing. It's that they can be used by any humanoid unit, allowing to transform cheap infantry into elite marksmen.

[eschmenk]

I feel like there has to be some understanding that if there's a battle in a city, it's your responsibility to not stand next to the portal and get hit by inadvertent fire. This can't be the first time something like this has happened

This probably never would have happened before because there wouldn't have been a reason to put weapons (secret or not) near the portals before. Until Parson did it, no one thought that anyone would attack through a portal. There might be a stack or two of guards or something like that, but nothing fancy. Parson thought that Charlie built up his portal defenses after Parson started going through the portals, not before.

[halfeye]

Parson thought that Charlie built up his portal defenses after Parson started going through the portals, not before.
Then Parson seriously underestimates Charlie's paranoia.

[eschmenk]

I wouldn't be surprised if Marie thought it would be helpful and that's why she was standing there. "I don't mind sacrificing..." Even on the previous pages, it looked to me as if Marie was intentionally standing closer to the portal than anyone else. Charlie was worried about the ramifications of firing out through the portal. It would look like that's what he did and it looked as if he hurt a neutral MK caster in the process.

I am more convinced that Marie intentionally sacrificed herself now that I reread a previous page (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/107):

...as killing free casters by these means would almost certainly be regarded not only as a violation of the Magic Kingdom's neutrality, but as actual war against it. This could result in irreparable harm to all future strategic operations.

---------------


Then Parson seriously underestimates Charlie's paranoia.

No, Charlie isn't paranoid. He hasn't even been worrying enough about the threats against him. Just below where I took the quote from, he surprised Tondelayo by underestimating the threats against him. (The current page makes it clear that Charlie was wrong.) And that was just after almost being killed by Lilith, which was another example of Charlie being overconfident.

[halfeye]

I am more convinced that Marie intentionally sacrificed herself now that I reread a previous page (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/107):
Who lived through this?

It wasn't Charlies intended machine gun splurge, it was apparently an explosion, of some sort, which maybe took out the machine guns. Though tripods could be mounts for directional explosives.

[eschmenk]

Who lived through this?

It wasn't Charlies intended machine gun splurge, it was apparently an explosion, of some sort, which maybe took out the machine guns. Though tripods could be mounts for directional explosives.

I don't understand the question. We don't know if Marie will live or not, if that's what you meant.

Of course it wasn't the machine guns that caused the damage to Marie. However, the same logic would apply if a different weapon was used. I'm reading that as being foreshadowing, in part because it seemed odd to include that text otherwise.

BTW, I edited my previous comment.

[halfeye]

I don't understand the question. We don't know if Marie will live or not, if that's what you meant.

I mean that that is the important question here, yes we don't know the answer to it yet. Parson probably has plot armour, but Marie? Parson's troops? Maggie? Jack? Wanda?


Of course it wasn't the machine guns that caused the damage to Marie. However, the same logic would apply if a different weapon was used. I'm reading that as being foreshadowing, in part because it seemed odd to include that text otherwise.
Charlie called them "tripods", we've assumed machine guns, but it could be claymore mines on tripods. Machine guns is probably most likely, but the blast would be more direct and probably more effective, from mines. As well as which, if it was mines, it wouldn't be backblast from the RPG, so not GK's treasury loss.


BTW, I edited my previous comment.
Paranoia is a state of being, it is still paranoid if they really are out to get you, it's just justified paranoia. Editing a post after you know it's been answered is annoying.

[eschmenk]

Oh, one more thing. I know some people wouldn't be happy with this, but if you look at the artwork, it's possible that Marie positioned herself in order to shield Wanda and Jack. I think Marie could have protected them by manipulating them to move instead, so that is a longshot, but I couldn't absolutely rule it out.

Ooh! If Marie wanted to be sure she could be decrypted, she would need to shield Wanda. And sure enough, Wanda was directly opposite Marie. Jack might have been hit, actually. It seems to me now that Marie was protecting Wanda with her body.

BTW, part of the reason I think this may have been intentional was that the stuff on this page (https://wiki.erfworld.com/LIAB_Text_37) about Marie and Wanda makes me think that there was some survivor's guilt or something else going on with Marie or maybe Marie thinks that Wanda needs to be protected at all costs.


Charlie called them "tripods", we've assumed machine guns, but it could be claymore mines on tripods. Machine guns is probably most likely, but the blast would be more direct and probably more effective, from mines. As well as which, if it was mines, it wouldn't be backblast from the RPG, so not GK's treasury loss.

Well there was no way it could be GK's treasury's loss anyway because no Charlescomm units were injured. Parson's injuries (and any other GK unit's injuries) should cost Charlescomm, though, unless that blast was strictly the RPG, which seems unlikely. I'm not sure what happened, but I think that some of the mines in the floor went off. In that case, Lilith might be dead.


Paranoia is a state of being, it is still paranoid if they really are out to get you, it's just justified paranoia. Editing a post after you know it's been answered is annoying.

If you want to communicate with other people, you are better off sticking with the dictionary definitions (http://www.tfd.com/paranoia).

1. A psychotic disorder characterized by delusions of persecution with or without grandeur, often strenuously defended with apparent logic and reason.
2. Extreme, irrational distrust of others.

Under those definitions, Charlie isn't paranoid.

I did not know that your comment existed while I was editing my comment. I didn't see yours until I was finished.

Added: BTW, I have no idea what point you were trying to make with your explanation of paranoia. Of course someone who is paranoid might have real enemies; if anything their irrational behavior is likely to create enemies. What would be the point of saying that a paranoid person could have enemies that were out to get them? That's just obvious and doesn't run contrary to anything I said. :smallconfused:

[halfeye]

Under those definitions, Charlie isn't paranoid.
I disagree.

[eschmenk]

I disagree.

OK, fair enough. I am viewing Charlie as more hyper-competitive or maybe obsessed with winning or something like that, although I'm not sure what should be considered to be excessive, given that Erfworld is a game.

[Razade]

If you want to communicate with other people, you are better off sticking with the dictionary definitions (http://www.tfd.com/paranoia).


Under those definitions, Charlie isn't paranoid.

Just an aside but you're -not- better off using a random internet dictionary on what Paranoia is. You're better off using the DSM-IV or the ICD. The ICD lists these as criteria for "Paranoia" with anyone having three or more capable of qualifying.

excessive sensitivity to setbacks and rebuffs (*Ding!*) - See: Every interaction with Parson post Chapter One.

tendency to bear grudges persistently, i.e. refusal to forgive insults and injuries or slights (*Ding!*) - See: Every interaction with Parson post Chapter One.

suspiciousness and a pervasive tendency to distort experience by misconstruing the neutral or friendly actions of others as hostile or contemptuous (*Ding!*) - The entirety of Charlscomm being designed as a Fortress of Solitude, the Heavy NDAs, the list goes on. Charlie is, if nothing else, a shrewd and mistrusting person.

a combative and tenacious sense of personal rights out of keeping with the actual situation (*Ding!*) Rule 16 "Of the few things more important than money, Charlie's attention is the most scarce and valuable. Spend it wisely."

recurrent suspicions, without justification, regarding sexual fidelity of spouse or sexual partner (*Buzz*) - Giving this one a pass since we don't know how Charlie feels about his Archons messing around with others. He doesn't seem to mind since it's on the payment method though the cost could easily be because he'd rather people not. It's a quibble. It doesn't count at the best of times however.

tendency to experience excessive self-importance, manifest in a persistent self-referential attitude; (*Ding!*) - If there's one thing about Charlie that we know for an absolute fact is he's a narccicest, Charlescomm is named after him and he is under the assumption he is the smartest there is on Erf. This is Charlie to a T.

preoccupation with unsubstantiated "conspiratorial" explanations of events both immediate to the patient and in the world at large. (*Buzz*) - This one is another facet we haven't seen from Charlie, not yet at least. Still a not yet doesn't count as a soft pass.

Five of seven! That's a pretty poor scoring.

[Porthos]

New Erf is up.

...

Did ANYONE guess that? Like anyone at all? :smallconfused:

EDIT:::

Adding spoilers

Though, now that I think about it the "Condition Brown" bit makes me wonder if he is actually shapeshifting*/changing his look in Erfworld as much as his mental projection does in his thinkagrams. Now that the shock is wearing off, I almost think that HAS to be the answer.

* Or at least his Signamancy is highly variable.

Unless I am totally missing something here (and I probably am).

[Lizard Lord]

The ICD lists these as criteria for "Paranoia" with anyone having three or more capable of qualifying.


Five of seven! That's a pretty poor scoring.

How is five poor scoring when you only need three?

[Razade]

How is five poor scoring when you only need three?

Poor as in, against the idea he's not paranoid.

[Porthos]

Charlie, Charlie, Charlie. You really should know better than to say something like you did in those panels about Fate. And then trying to figure out what was "the pawn" that could put you in the dark.

:elan:: I mean, really, didn't they teach you anything in Carnymancy school about that sort of thing? You practically begged for that to happen. :smallwink:

[Lizard Lord]

New Erf is up.

...

Did ANYONE guess that? Like anyone at all? :smallconfused:

EDIT:::

Adding spoilers

Though, now that I think about it the "Condition Brown" bit makes me wonder if he is actually shapeshifting*/changing his look in Erfworld as much as his mental projection does in his thinkagrams. Now that the shock is wearing off, I almost think that HAS to be the answer.

* Or at least his Signamancy is highly variable.

Unless I am totally missing something here (and I probably am).

It kind of makes sense, in an Erfworld sort of way, that Charlie would have the signamancy of multiple different "Charlies". We now have Charlie's Angels, Charlie Brown, and Charles Xavier. I wonder how many more they can bring in.

[Porthos]

It kind of makes sense, in an Erfworld sort of way, that Charlie would have the signamancy of multiple different "Charlies". We now have Charlie's Angels, Charlie Brown, and Charles Xavier. I wonder how many more they can bring in.

That's a very good point. One that I've already seen brought up on the Erfworld forum.

As for other Charlies, Charles de Gaulle has been brought up over there (as well as Charlie the Tuna from the Starkist Tuna TV commericals). Both have made some sort of appearance I think via Thinkagrams.

Then there's Charlemagne as an obvious one (would be conquerer of most of the known world). Plenty of other Charlies out there, I would think.

EDIT::::

Charles Manson works as well given the cultlike hold he has over his followers.

[Legato Endless]

So are the cards themselves a cheat, a normal carny tool, or has Chuck successfully branched out into predictamancy?

[Porthos]

So are the cards themselves a cheat, a normal carny tool, or has Chuck successfully branched out into predictamancy?

Well, he is a bit of a dabbler. But I got the impression that it was the archon who was doing the predictamancy there, not Charlie.

Actually, I just re-read it and you're right. It WAS Charlie. My bad. So either branching out a bit or using it as a Carnymancy tool, I guess.

=====

Speaking of which, Tower would not exactly a great card to get as a predictamancy tool if it was upright if this site is anything to go by (http://www.biddytarot.com/tarot-card-meanings/major-arcana/tower/):

Tower Upright: Disaster, upheaval, sudden change, revelation.

(and Wikipedia seems to broadly agree with that interpetation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tower_(Tarot_card)))

Sure, depends on the rest of the cards, but, well, we all saw what happened, no?

[Douglas]

I'm guessing some critical part of Charlescomm's power grid goes through the portal room area and just got damaged by Lilith's RPG. That exterior shot looks like a total power outage for the entire city. Should be a nice big batch of chaos for Lilith to take advantage of.

[Porthos]

I'm guessing some critical part of Charlescomm's power grid goes through the portal room area and just got damaged by Lilith's RPG. That exterior shot looks like a total power outage for the entire city. Should be a nice big batch of chaos for Lilith to take advantage of.

Yes, the city is in an, ahem, brownout right now. :smallredface:

(technically it's on auxiliary/emergency power and not a brownout [which is a dip in power], but the description was too much to pass up. :smallredface:)

[DataNinja]

So, Lilith is a little, red, haired girl, right? :smalltongue:

[Tokay]

New Erf is up.

...

Did ANYONE guess that? Like anyone at all? :smallconfused:

EDIT:::

Adding spoilers

Though, now that I think about it the "Condition Brown" bit makes me wonder if he is actually shapeshifting*/changing his look in Erfworld as much as his mental projection does in his thinkagrams. Now that the shock is wearing off, I almost think that HAS to be the answer.

* Or at least his Signamancy is highly variable.

Unless I am totally missing something here (and I probably am).

I'm pretty sure "condition brown" means Charlie just crapped himself.

[Quild]

I'm pretty sure "condition brown" means Charlie just crapped himself.

And the tie is simply a coincidence?

[Kareasint]

I think Porthos is correct. Charlie's Signamancy appears to change depending on what is going on around him.

Lilith might actually pull this off now due to a loss of power and the resulting chaos.

[Killer Angel]

Archon: "Then why are we worried?"

......

Charlie: "Another question?"

[Fjolnir]

Current Charlie references: Charlemange, DeGalle, Charlie(Angels), The Tuna, Charles Ergen (Founder of Dish Network), Xavier, and Brown

[-D-]

Just an aside but you're -not- better off using a random internet dictionary on what Paranoia is. You're better off using the DSM-IV or the ICD. The ICD lists these as criteria for "Paranoia" with anyone having three or more capable of qualifying.


Applying DSM-IV to a fantasy setting, in which the setting/narration can conspire against you to force you to do something, and has an elaborate practice built around diving setting's intention (*Bzzzt*).

Unless you can prove that our world has an equivalent of Erfworld Fate, the comparison isn't equivalent. Because in Erf it's rational to fear bad things will happen to you unless certain set of events is in motion (Fate) and the world can balance itself to make sure your score will be equal to your loss (Numbers).

[ryuplaneswalker]

Current Charlie references: Charlemange, DeGalle, Charlie(Angels), The Tuna, Charles Ergen (Founder of Dish Network), Xavier, and Brown

So what are the chances that one of Charlie's experiments with the dish has given him perspective that he is just in a game world, and he has gone completely insane..and is attempting to destroy everything.

Thus we have a "Crisis of Infinite Chucks"

[eschmenk]

Just an aside but you're -not- better off using a random internet dictionary on what Paranoia is. You're better off using the DSM-IV or the ICD. The ICD lists these as criteria for "Paranoia" with anyone having three or more capable of qualifying.

I think you would be better off leaving such things to the professionals to interpret. In any case, I disagree with you about several of the items.


If there's one thing about Charlie that we know for an absolute fact is he's a narccicest, Charlescomm is named after him and he is under the assumption he is the smartest there is on Erf. This is Charlie to a T.

Charlie apparently was the smartest there was on Erf until Parson came along. Now that Parson is there he sees that Parson is a threat that needs to be eliminated. It's taking a while to realize just how big of a threat Parson is, but that's to be expected.

Charlie doesn't seem all that different than the way Bill Gates used to be or the robber barons of years past. They weren't nice people and they caused a lot of harm, but it wasn't a matter of clinical paranoia.

[MReav]

Current Charlie references: Charlemange, DeGalle, Charlie(Angels), The Tuna, Charles Ergen (Founder of Dish Network), Xavier, and Brown

I like to imagine
back before he became attuned, Charlie was a boozing, drug snorting womanizer. So Charlie Sheen/Harper.

[Chromascope3D]

Charlie is actually a fat guy from Ohio. :smalltongue:

[Ninjadeadbeard]

Good grief!

[Godskook]

excessive sensitivity to setbacks and rebuffs (*Ding!*) - See: Every interaction with Parson post Chapter One.

Charlie has not, since start of comic, been "excessively sensitive" to anything. So *Buzz*


tendency to bear grudges persistently, i.e. refusal to forgive insults and injuries or slights (*Ding!*) - See: Every interaction with Parson post Chapter One.

Who does Charlie have a "grudge" against? Not anyone I can think of. He's largely dispassionate about his behavior. Yes, he wants Parson either dead or on his side, but that's nothing personal. Its purely a function of Parson's fate to -kill- Charlie. And despite this fate, Charlie can -still- forgive insults and injuries from Parson. So again, *Buzz*


suspiciousness and a pervasive tendency to distort experience by misconstruing the neutral or friendly actions of others as hostile or contemptuous (*Ding!*) - The entirety of Charlscomm being designed as a Fortress of Solitude, the Heavy NDAs, the list goes on. Charlie is, if nothing else, a shrewd and mistrusting person.

Everyone actually is out to get Charlie, *CLEARLY* a case of paranoia.

As for distorting/misconstruing/mistrusting, when has Charlie ever been wrong in his assessment of someone's personality?(Not exact actions, -personality-)

All and all, *Buzz*


a combative and tenacious sense of personal rights out of keeping with the actual situation (*Ding!*) Rule 16 "Of the few things more important than money, Charlie's attention is the most scarce and valuable. Spend it wisely."

This entire point relies on "out of keeping with the actual situation", and what Charlie thinks are his personal rights have never been out of keeping with the actual situation within the context of the comic because he gets his -every- right in -writing-. The only 'rights' he could possibly be wrong about are morally-religious(i.e., according to the Titans) ones, but on that front, even the comic has done quite poorly giving us any reason to think he's outside his 'rights' in how he behaves.

Another *Buzz*. I'm sensing a pattern...


tendency to experience excessive self-importance, manifest in a persistent self-referential attitude; (*Ding!*) - If there's one thing about Charlie that we know for an absolute fact is he's a narccicest, Charlescomm is named after him and he is under the assumption he is the smartest there is on Erf. This is Charlie to a T.

He's actually not a narcissist. Yes, he thinks he's -one of- the smartest person on Erf, but that's not a mental disorder if its -true-, which as far as we can tell, it is. That's like calling Stephen Hawking a narcissist for believing he's -one of- the smartest people on Earth.

And *Buzz*


Five of seven! That's a pretty poor scoring.

I count 0/7

[Razade]

I think you would be better off leaving such things to the professionals to interpret. In any case, I disagree with you about several of the items.


Are...you a professional? I suspect not considering your first instinct was to go off an online dictionary definition. Perhaps the criticism should be lobbied at yourself before you send it anyone else's way.


Applying DSM-IV to a fantasy setting, in which the setting/narration can conspire against you to force you to do something, and has an elaborate practice built around diving setting's intention (*Bzzzt*).

Unless you can prove that our world has an equivalent of Erfworld Fate, the comparison isn't equivalent. Because in Erf it's rational to fear bad things will happen to you unless certain set of events is in motion (Fate) and the world can balance itself to make sure your score will be equal to your loss (Numbers).

Erfworld doesn't seem to be 100% alien to our own world and if Charlie is in fact The Wizard as all the signs point to with all the Wizard of Oz references then he is or was in fact Human and thus Human laws apply to him. Regardless of that, I was responding to someone who was likewise applying real world definitions to a fictional setting. Not only that but saying real world things shouldn't effect a clearly fictional place is not a solid defense or we'd be stuck discussing very little.

[-D-]

Erfworld doesn't seem to be 100% alien to our own world and if Charlie is in fact The Wizard as all the signs point to with all the Wizard of Oz references then he is or was in fact Human and thus Human laws apply to him. ... Not only that but saying real world things shouldn't effect a clearly fictional place is not a solid defense or we'd be stuck discussing very little.
Yes it is. It's not starfish/xenomorph alien alien, but its pretty alien. Here are some examples:

* In Erfworld, there is a concept of Duty which compels you to act in your side's best interest.
* If you have right position, you can command anyone to do anything, up and including having sex with them. Regardless of their consent.
* The suns changes position in the sky if you step through a hex, for laughing out loud.
* The night sky is dark red.
* Actions are predetermined and constrained by mechanics of Fate.
* There is a caste of people that can divine chance of something happening.
* There is a caste of people that can extract and transfer knowledge between minds.
...

This isn't your run of the mill fantasy setting. There are weird laws afoot and not taking them into account, makes your comparison to real world, really, really weak.
Charlie's problem isn't that he is paranoid, its that he isn't paranoid enough.

Also Charlie being from Earth is fan theory at best, epileptic trees at worst. It's possible, but so far, I'd put more faith in that Charlie is Parson's dad (*respirator* Parson. I am your father).

[Stegyre]

I count 0/7
+1

I think even more could be added: so much of Razade's analysis strikes me as terribly, terribly off.

[eschmenk]

Are...you a professional? I suspect not considering your first instinct was to go off an online dictionary definition. Perhaps the criticism should be lobbied at yourself before you send it anyone else's way.

I wouldn't have given the same advice to all nonprofessionals, if that was what you were assuming.

[Alex Knight]

Hm. One aspect of Signnamancy here....Charlie Brown is Fate's chewtoy in Peanuts. It's always against him.

[Zalabim]

I like to imagine
back before he became attuned, Charlie was a boozing, drug snorting womanizer. So Charlie Sheen/Harper.

We know that Charlie has had issues with hero(ine) flowers in the past. it's amazing that he's still alive.

[Killer Angel]

We know that Charlie has had issues with hero(ine) flowers in the past. it's amazing that he's still alive.

To be fair, he's not exactly a picture of health...

[MReav]

We know that Charlie has had issues with hero(ine) flowers in the past. it's amazing that he's still alive.

The only reason he's still alive after that is through judicious application of Carnymancy

[halfeye]

The only reason he's still alive after that is through judicious application of Carnymancy
Are we sure he's alive?

[The Glyphstone]

Are we sure he's alive?


Lilith read his status as 'alive, but physically incapacitated'. He's on Carnymancy-driven life support, but not dead.

[thereaper]

New Erf is up.

...

Did ANYONE guess that? Like anyone at all? :smallconfused:



Apparently, Wrecan did (http://forums.erfworld.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7771&sid=e7a195ab2542471bd28fbc8244c460b1&start=140#p145367). On April Fools Day, no less.

What I find interesting is that

the only time Charlie Brown successfully kicked the football (albeit noncanonically, because it was on a tv show instead of the strips) was when he cheated by doing it while invisible.

It would certainly explain why Charlie always cheats.

[DataNinja]

What I find interesting is that

the only time Charlie Brown successfully kicked the football (albeit noncanonically, because it was on a tv show instead of the strips) was when he cheated by doing it while invisible.

Well, actually, in one of the Sunday strips... (http://www.gocomics.com/peanuts/1999/10/24)
We'll never know...

[DataNinja]

Just thought I'd put this here. Relevant Signamancy much? :smallbiggrin:

http://cdn.hitfix.com/photos/5792488/RejectedPeanutsSpecials_featured_photo_gallery.png

[memnarch]

I don't see the large bag; I think Lilith did it! :smallsmile:

[Fjolnir]

She had to ditch the bag in the update where she gets DDoS'd but she no longer has the rifle that was slung on her back or the pistol either, and the member of fox force that tripped the trap is through the portal, which is more than good enough.

[Killer Angel]

Horray for Lilith!!! :smallsmile:

...so yeah, the tripods are machine guns.

The art is excellent.

[memnarch]

She had to ditch the bag in the update where she gets DDoS'd but she no longer has the rifle that was slung on her back or the pistol either, and the member of fox force that tripped the trap is through the portal, which is more than good enough.

I think Lilith had more, but there is the bag on the page (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/110) where the rocket is fired.

[Tokay]

I just looked back through the archives. Before the (D?)DoS attack Lillith had a bag of weapons and an "either-net" which contained a dead member of Fox Force Five and some other stuff. During the attack they took away the net, but not the bag.

Also, I don't think the corpse she just threw through the portal was a Fox Force member, just a regular archon with high enough clearance to be down there.

[Douglas]

The giant net full of Fox Force members and loads of stuff that she's hauling around here (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+3/103) was taken from her. She kept the bag of weapons hanging from her shoulders, visible as still with her as recently as aiming the RPG (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+3/110). It's not completely clear, but it seems to me that Parson put higher priority on getting the guns than the bodies when he gave Lilith her orders, and she's smart enough to notice and act on a distinction like that. If she's swinging the body through the portal now, she should have already tossed the bag through.

[virgileso]

Is this somehow not counting as material harm?

[Kantaki]

Is this somehow not counting as material harm?

What? Throwing a dead body through the Portal? I don't think so. It passes the Portal without problem and even if not it's not a Charlescomm unit anymore.



Lilith's mission was successful. That's good. Now all she has to do is to find a way out. Or to make Charlie loose some Shmuckers.

[eschmenk]

Also, Lilith is injured. I doubt the RPG would have hurt her from that distance, so I think some of Charlie's traps went off, which should be good for GK's treasury. (IRL, Lilith would have injured her legs firing the RPG like that, but I don't think we are supposed to think of that.)

[Spojaz]

My patented always-wrong prediction -

That heavily guarded magic rectangle is not the portal. It is a plane of destruction or something very similar. Charlie's capital site is not the heavily defended fortress he lives in, but a heavily trapped, recently acquired, nearly-unoccupied secondary site, as capitals always have the portal room, and charlie would want that as far from himself as possible.

Nobody from Charlescomm ever has to go to the magic kingdom, he telecommutes to meetings. Charlie is arrogant enough to think he would never need an escape route, would never be able to use it anyway, and nobody else matters enough to need one. Charlie wouldn't leave a backdoor like that open at all. Especially after the battle for Jetstone.

The explosion in the magic kingdom did not come from the attack in the fortress. Instead one of the archons in the real capital set off some of the traps surrounding the real portal, which could be blamed on Parson. Charlie has always been a few steps ahead of everyone else, I don't think that has changed.

[Chromascope3D]

My patented always-wrong prediction -

That heavily guarded magic rectangle is not the portal. It is a plane of destruction or something very similar. Charlie's capital site is not the heavily defended fortress he lives in, but a heavily trapped, recently acquired, nearly-unoccupied secondary site, as capitals always have the portal room, and charlie would want that as far from himself as possible.

Nobody from Charlescomm ever has to go to the magic kingdom, he telecommutes to meetings. Charlie is arrogant enough to think he would never need an escape route, would never be able to use it anyway, and nobody else matters enough to need one. Charlie wouldn't leave a backdoor like that open at all. Especially after the battle for Jetstone.

The explosion in the magic kingdom did not come from the attack in the fortress. Instead one of the archons in the real capital set off some of the traps surrounding the real portal, which could be blamed on Parson. Charlie has always been a few steps ahead of everyone else, I don't think that has changed.

That wouldn't explain why all that junk sloughed through the portal into the MK at the same time that Lilith blew up the room. Also, I feel the sheer mental gymnastics required to predict this exact plot turn and then set up contingencies for it would probably be too great for even Charlie to handle, or at least, it couldn't be handled in a way that didn't feel cheap.

[virgileso]

What? Throwing a dead body through the Portal? I don't think so. It passes the Portal without problem and even if not it's not a Charlescomm unit anymore.No, all of the damage to level 40 to open that hole to the portal chamber, the loss of power to the entire city, the theft of his guns, etc.

[Douglas]

No, all of the damage to level 40 to open that hole to the portal chamber, the loss of power to the entire city, the theft of his guns, etc.
I think they're having only damage to units count for the treaty, and no units were harmed.

Seems like a plot hole, considering that Section 4, Part I, subsection a states:

Neither Party shall attempt to cause, either directly or through agents or other contracted parties, any material harm to the units, cities, property, or other assets of the other Party.

[runeghost]

My patented always-wrong prediction -

That heavily guarded magic rectangle is not the portal. It is a plane of destruction or something very similar. Charlie's capital site is not the heavily defended fortress he lives in, but a heavily trapped, recently acquired, nearly-unoccupied secondary site, as capitals always have the portal room, and charlie would want that as far from himself as possible.

Nobody from Charlescomm ever has to go to the magic kingdom, he telecommutes to meetings. Charlie is arrogant enough to think he would never need an escape route, would never be able to use it anyway, and nobody else matters enough to need one. Charlie wouldn't leave a backdoor like that open at all. Especially after the battle for Jetstone.

That doesn't match up with the presence of the slot machines. If what you're suggesting were true, then the slot machines would only be there to deceive us, the readers, which I really doubt is the case.

[Hawk7915]

We haven't seen the Stanley since she fired ze missile ; with no treasury left, GK may very well have just lost several cities for causing "material harm" to the city. Otherwise yes, plot hole.

[eschmenk]

We haven't seen the Stanley since she fired ze missile ; with no treasury left, GK may very well have just lost several cities for causing "material harm" to the city. Otherwise yes, plot hole.

It wouldn't be a plot hole if Charlescomm simultaneously caused as many or more instances of material harm to GK. GK was going to have to pay a value equivalent to the minimum, which was 500,000. Charlescomm was going to have to pay one half of its treasury, which was 167,000,000. Obviously, Charlescomm was going to be paying more per instance than GK would.

In any case, we know that Charlie was planning to claim Lilith (and presumably additional stuff) if GK couldn't pay, and since she's still dressed in red, that must not have happened.

[Hawk7915]

It wouldn't be a plot hole if Charlescomm simultaneously caused as many or more instances of material harm to GK. GK was going to have to pay a value equivalent to the minimum, which was 500,000. Charlescomm was going to have to pay one half of its treasury, which was 167,000,000. Obviously, Charlescomm was going to be paying more per instance than GK would.

In any case, we know that Charlie was planning to claim Lilith (and presumably additional stuff) if GK couldn't pay, and since she's still dressed in red, that must not have happened.

But the transfer happens "automagically". Now maybe Charlie has a way to rig the system and get what's most useful to him (casters, Parson, cities closest to tactical goals)...but now he's off-dish and can't pull any shenanigans.

It's also possible, of course, that Lilith tripped a bunch of traps or the burns from the rocket count as Charlsescomm causing "material damage", and the money is a wash or ends up in GK's favor. Just saying, it's also possible that this is a Pyrrhic victory for Parson because Charlescomm automagically claims Seizemore and two cities or something.

[Douglas]

If damaging the building and other non-unit objects were going to count for the treaty, we would have seen that back when Lilith forcibly broke into and ransacked the armory (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/102).

[Hawk7915]

If damaging the building and other non-unit objects were going to count for the treaty, we would have seen that back when Lilith forcibly broke into and ransacked the armory (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/102).

Huh, good point. I guess some retconjuration is in order...or maybe as an escaping prisoner causing material harm to the city in the pursuit of freedom gets a pass but attacking units doesn't?

[eschmenk]

I was going to add this to my previous comment, but Hawk replied first:

I admit that it does seem odd that Liliith wasn't concerned about causing harm to GK when she fired the RPG. I suppose it's possible that the grenade counts as a portable Charlescomm dirtamancy trap, so the damage would wind up being Charlescomm damage rather than GK damage. That seems like a bit of a stretch, but I couldn't rule it out. But anyway, it could all count as Charlescomm damage. :smallconfused:


But the transfer happens "automagically". Now maybe Charlie has a way to rig the system and get what's most useful to him (casters, Parson, cities closest to tactical goals)...but now he's off-dish and can't pull any shenanigans.

Apparently, it's somehow possible for it to be both automatic and for the other side to have a choice. The conditions for a breach of confidentiality say that the payment is done automatically in Section IV, Part III:

Proscriptive magical enforcement of confidentiality is not applied to the agreement, but breach of this Part by either Party shall automagically incur a penalty.

But it also says that the other side chooses the city to be transferred in Section IV, Part VI, Paragraph 3:

The penalty for general breach of confidentiality under Section 4 - Part III "Confidentiality and Disclosure" shall consist of the transfer of one (1) city from the Party which committed the breach to the other Party. The choice of city is left to the compliant party.

So maybe a window pops up in front of the ruler and asks "What do you want to take" and displays a list of assets? :smallbiggrin:


ADDED:
And I'm still behind...


Huh, good point. I guess some retconjuration is in order...or maybe as an escaping prisoner causing material harm to the city in the pursuit of freedom gets a pass but attacking units doesn't?

Yes, I think that could be it, too. But it's odd that damage to units does count.

[Douglas]

I admit that it does seem odd that Liliith wasn't concerned about causing harm to GK when she fired the RPG.
She was concerned, and specifically thinks about the possibility while searching for a good place to target, but her concern is focused only on the possibility that the explosion might harm Charlescomm personnel.

[eschmenk]

She was concerned, and specifically thinks about the possibility while searching for a good place to target, but her concern is focused only on the possibility that the explosion might harm Charlescomm personnel.

Yes, that's what I meant.

The more I think of it, the more I think that the damage to the armory might not count as material harm, though. It didn't damage things, other than cosmetically. The city could be just as easily defended, despite the damage. To be material harm, it would have to cause consequences and not be easily repairable. But that's the sort of think lawyers get paid big bucks to argue over.

ADDED:

Huh. On Monday's page, Charlie guessed that Lilith might cause "material damage" trying to breach 40. But he said that she would fail and Parson would try to get her, so he wouldn't have claimed her. So maybe he would refuse to take her and take other assets worth 500,000 and continue to use her as bait. (He told Tondelayo (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/107) that he would claim Lilith after Parson tried to invade.)

Also the floor traps were shockomancy traps (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/107). If that means that they were electrical traps, they might not have exploded. I guess we will have to wait and see what sort of automagic payments are made.

[Hawk7915]

It's been several months so I give it 50-50 odds of retconjuration happening, BUT...we also have a lot of story left to tell, and for Parson and Co to get such a huge win here (millions of schumckers, guns, new archons, and a pile of invaluable intel on Charlie) without some sort of catch just doesn't feel right. I mean, I guess Charlie not dying could be the catch and I'm sure he'll take these losses poorly but I still think we're going to see a key character or city (or both!) suddenly sporting Charlescomm livery.

[halfeye]

It's been several months so I give it 50-50 odds of retconjuration happening, BUT...we also have a lot of story left to tell, and for Parson and Co to get such a huge win here (millions of schumckers, guns, new archons, and a pile of invaluable intel on Charlie) without some sort of catch just doesn't feel right. I mean, I guess Charlie not dying could be the catch and I'm sure he'll take these losses poorly but I still think we're going to see a key character or city (or both!) suddenly sporting Charlescomm livery.
That's not what I'm expecting when we get a complete resolution to what's just happened. Money yes, lots of it. However, not enough to cripple Charlie financially. Guns, even a fired RPG launcher, yes, but not half so many as Charlie has left. Maybe one new archon for the loss of Lilith, but that's about the full extent of it. For the deficit side, Parson wounded, Marie killed, Wanda killed (because otherwise the other deaths don'r matter) (which would mean no new archon, and maybe a continuing story with Lilith, I like Lilith so I wouldn't mind that too much), Sizemore maybe wounded maybe killed, but if he lives, now attuned to the pliers, which in his hands do Dirtamancy not Necromancy. Some grunts dusted, which ought to cost Charlie, but since they're theoretically dead already maybe won't. I think there's a non-null risk that Charlie has croaked, though where that would leave us for opponents I don't know.

[The Glyphstone]

How would they get a new archon to replace Lilith if Wanda dies?

[halfeye]

How would they get a new archon to replace Lilith if Wanda dies?
Yeah, I saw that myself, and edited it, before spotting your post.

Sorry about that.

I'd like to see Lilith ongoing, don't know what she could do to get out of Charlescom territory in three days. If Charlie croaked, would the whole place and all his archons dust?

Actually, that might be a good way to limit Parson. Wound everybody around the portal, some to death, then croak Charlie, before anyone else died, so there's no treaty payout for the deaths.

[eschmenk]

For the deficit side, Parson wounded, Marie killed, Wanda killed (because otherwise the other deaths don'r matter) (which would mean no new archon, and maybe a continuing story with Lilith, I like Lilith so I wouldn't mind that too much), Sizemore maybe wounded maybe killed, but if he lives, now attuned to the pliers, which in his hands do Dirtamancy not Necromancy. Some grunts dusted, which ought to cost Charlie, but since they're theoretically dead already maybe won't.

I don't think Wanda could be hurt. Marie had (I think intentionally) placed herself so that she was blocking all debris that would have hit Wanda. Sizemore is in Spacerock, so how would he be wounded? We'll have to see if the Charlie pays for the damage to the GK units or not.

Marie is probably dead and probably would be decryped by Wanda. If Charlescomm damage is what killed her, it might turn some MK casters more against Charlie.

[halfeye]

I don't think Wanda could be hurt. Marie had (I think intentionally) placed herself so that she was blocking all debris that would have hit Wanda.
Well, we don't know that yet, it's possible, but Wanda is so overpoweful that it would make it easier to tell an interesting story with her gone.


Sizemore is in Spacerock, so how would he be wounded?

Oops. I didn't remember where he was.


We'll have to see if the Charlie pays for the damage to the GK units or not.

Marie is probably dead and probably would be decryped by Wanda. If Charlescomm damage is what killed her, it might turn some MK casters more against Charlie.
If Wanda lives, the only possible units lost are decrypted, which is why I call her overpowerful.

Charlie is similarly overpowerful, so wipe out both and you leave things more or less as they are (supposing Parson lives, which seems inevitable). If Charlie lives, then GK's money worries are over, but they have to fight Charlie, which comes down to diplomacy, and diplomacy is hard to draw.

[eschmenk]

Well, we don't know that yet, it's possible, but Wanda is so overpoweful that it would make it easier to tell an interesting story with her gone.

We don't know what yet? The artwork showed that no debris were heading toward Wanda because Marie was blocking them. Do you mean that the artwork wasn't supposed to show that or do you mean that we can't know if Marie was intentionally protecting Wanda? Or do you think that Marie will get knocked down and some debris will still hit Wanda?

ADDED:
I don't think it would be easier to tell an interesting story with Wanda gone. It would pretty much amount to a retconjuration, for one thing. Wanda is supposed to have some important role to play in the future according to what Marie told Janis (https://wiki.erfworld.com/LIAB_Text_37) and apparently Wanda. I doubt that Marie would have been wrong about that.

BTW, I think that Charlie will be nearly as potent as ever once he gets hooked back up to the arcendish and has a chance to make some repairs. He may even be more of a threat to GK because he'll be less overconfident.

[The Glyphstone]

For that matter, I strongly suspect that Wanda will die at some point, only to have the Arkenpliers spontaneously decrypt her via attunement, making her a separate side in truth.

[Aquillion]

Actually, that might be a good way to limit Parson. Wound everybody around the portal, some to death, then croak Charlie, before anyone else died, so there's no treaty payout for the deaths.Except that if they defeat Charlie's side and capture his capital, they get his treasury, don't they? He might have a contingency for that, but perhaps not, since it's not clear he anticipates his own death or cares what happens afterwards.

[halfeye]

Except that if they defeat Charlie's side and capture his capital, they get his treasury, don't they? He might have a contingency for that, but perhaps not, since it's not clear he anticipates his own death or cares what happens afterwards.
Yeah, but as in the case of queen Bea, if he ups and dies of his own doing, it all goes, city, archons, treasury, gems cache, the lot. All that's left is a capital city site that can be claimed, but the city is empty if it's claimed. If I've remembered it right.

[Douglas]

Yeah, but as in the case of queen Bea, if he ups and dies of his own doing, it all goes, city, archons, treasury, gems cache, the lot. All that's left is a capital city site that can be claimed, but the city is empty if it's claimed. If I've remembered it right.
No, only forces in the field outright disappear. Bea deliberately promoted everything to field units and moved them out before suiciding.

Cities become "neutral", which essentially means they sit and do nothing except when attacked. This was explained back in book 1 when Parson wondered what would happen to Gobwin Knob if Stanley croaked on his Faq-seeking mission.

[SZbNAhL]

No, only forces in the field outright disappear. Bea deliberately promoted everything to field units and moved them out before suiciding.

Sorry to take us a little off topic here, but there's something that's always annoyed me about that scene: Bea clearly likes and trusts Don King of Transylvito. Don has in his service a moneymancer - a unit which appears to specialise in transferring money. Bea needs to get rid of all of her money quickly. Why not, instead of wasting it all, simply ask Don to borrow Ben for a turn and send Transylvito her treasury? As we later saw, Don really could have used the money, and it's not like she had something better to do with it.

[halfeye]

We don't know what yet? The artwork showed that no debris were heading toward Wanda because Marie was blocking them. Do you mean that the artwork wasn't supposed to show that or do you mean that we can't know if Marie was intentionally protecting Wanda? Or do you think that Marie will get knocked down and some debris will still hit Wanda?

It depends what the stuff was that came through the portal. Though it's very unlikely, it could be water, in which case Marie is a bit wet but everyone is alright, the way Charlie was talking, it's probably an explosion, or machine gun fire, and either of those can kill through a persons body.

We won't know until we get an update about Parson's group.


ADDED:
I don't think it would be easier to tell an interesting story with Wanda gone. It would pretty much amount to a retconjuration, for one thing. Wanda is supposed to have some important role to play in the future according to what Marie told Janis (https://wiki.erfworld.com/LIAB_Text_37) and apparently Wanda. I doubt that Marie would have been wrong about that.

I read that story as a flashback to the time Parson was called to Erfworld, and Wanda being important at that (now passed) time, so to me it says nothing about what will happen to Wanda in the future.


BTW, I think that Charlie will be nearly as potent as ever once he gets hooked back up to the arcendish and has a chance to make some repairs. He may even be more of a threat to GK because he'll be less overconfident.

Diplomacy will make for a dull comic, all talking heads, no fighting.

[gooddragon1]

I actually speculated on the erfworld forums about this:

https://static.erfworld.com/comic/Book%203/86/Erf3_086_900_web.jpg

Some of the things that came up:
Is it okay to harm her because she's a prisoner?
Is a punch insufficiently damaging?

[Yuki Akuma]

A prisoner is, in many ways, treated as a unit of the side holding them prisoner. You can torture a prisoner all you like without it counting as an attack on the prisoner's original side.

Taking her prisoner would count as causing Gobwin Knob material harm, but Charlsecomm didn't take her prisoner. Jetstone did.

[eschmenk]

No, only forces in the field outright disappear. Bea deliberately promoted everything to field units and moved them out before suiciding.

LIAB Prologue 22: (https://wiki.erfworld.com/LIAB_Prologue_22)

I have spent most of the treasury and gems promoting all garrison units to full and sending them out of the city.
Unless that was different in the printed book, I took that to mean that she was promoting everyone all the way to warlord (not just field) just to use up her treasury so that GK couldn't benefit from it. But yes, it also allowed them to be out of the capital so they would disband rather than possibly being killed and decrypted.


It depends what the stuff was that came through the portal. Though it's very unlikely, it could be water, in which case Marie is a bit wet but everyone is alright, the way Charlie was talking, it's probably an explosion, or machine gun fire, and either of those can kill through a persons body.

We won't know until we get an update about Parson's group.

No, we know what the artwork showed (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/111). The artwork showed debris from an explosion. It obviously was not water, so did you even mention that? Charlie didn't say anything, except for "Good grief," (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/112) so why would you say "the way Charlie was talking, it's probably an explosion, or machine gun fire?" You couldn't have concluded either one just from "Good grief." We know that the machine guns couldn't have fired at the portal (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/113), so why did you act as if that could have happened? We can see that the debris were not passing through Marie, so why did you act as if that might be happening? The story we were shown may not have been the story that you wanted to see, but we were given artwork that showed that Wanda was not being injured. Why pretend otherwise?

If you really want to hope that Wanda is killed, you could hope that something happens in the future, like, for example, Marie falls down and the Archons open the vault doors and shoot through the portal, but nothing like that has happened yet, assuming that what we were shown is accurate.


I read that story as a flashback to the time Parson was called to Erfworld, and Wanda being important at that (now passed) time, so to me it says nothing about what will happen to Wanda in the future.

That's obviously the wrong way to read the entire page, if that's what you meant by "story". The page described Janis meeting Marie during the battle at Spacerock, right when Sizemore was about to start digging the tunnel between the portals. We can tell that it was not a flashback because Marie and Janis were talking about things that had just happened, were happening currently, and were about to happen in the immediate future (https://wiki.erfworld.com/LIAB_Text_37).

That said, the text did refer a back to when the scroll to summon Parson was made a couple of times, but that was only for a few paragraphs. The way I interpreted things, the text indicated that Marie still thought that the things involving Wanda were still unfinished during the battle at Spacerock, just as she had thought earlier. I'm thinking that she meant something much more important than what Wanda has been doing lately.


Diplomacy will make for a dull comic, all talking heads, no fighting.

There is no reason to think that it would just be diplomacy if both Charlie and Wanda live, nor that the story would become dull. There is already a truce between GK and Charlecomm, yet I don't think it's been very dull. Also, don't forget that there is more than two sides in Erfworld.

[hajo]

something that's always annoyed me about that scene:
Bea needs to get rid of all of her money quickly.
Why not, instead of wasting it all, .. send Transylvito her treasury?
it's not like she had something better to do with it.
Getting rid of the money was not the main point.
Bea (https://wiki.erfworld.com/LIAB_Prologue_22) wanted her troops gone, to deny GK more decrypted.

Garrison-units are cheap, but have no move.
So, to send them out into the field, she needed
to promote them to full units, and pay for that.

Maybe she could have disbanded them all,
but that might have taken too long.
(Also, heartless / not noble, etc.)

[NEO|Phyte]

Maybe she could have disbanded them all,
but that might have taken too long.
(Also, heartless / not noble, etc.)

How could it have taken too long, she is literally the one that decides when their turn ends.

As for the moneymancy stuff, hard to say why that didn't come up, likely because plot required transylvito to be running on fumes.

[Legato Endless]

How could it have taken too long, she is literally the one that decides when their turn ends.


Maybe. Turns end on their own even without an order eventually.

I think the real issue is whether you can mass disband units, or whether it's an individual order. If it's the latter, then Bea probably couldn't disband everyone. An absolute ruler executing someone is simple enough. A ruler executing everyone is almost certain to trigger a rebellion as they're endangering the side. And rebel units are almost certainly immune to disbanding.

That's also probably why Bea didn't tell her warlords what she intended, lest they stop her.

[eschmenk]

As we later saw, Don really could have used the money, and it's not like she had something better to do with it.

I think the explanation could be that Bea simply didn't know that Don needed the money. Transylvito had been wealthy until Don King started propping up Jillian and it seemed to surprise everyone that he went so overboard doing that. Talking about money would have probably seemed gauche to her, so she probably would have been reluctant to ever bring up the subject. King Stately expected to be able to borrow from Don King during the battle for Jetstone, so he didn't seem to be aware of Don King's money troubles, either.


Garrison-units are cheap, but have no move.
So, to send them out into the field, she needed
to promote them to full units, and pay for that.

What does "full unit" mean? I used google to search the transcripts on the wiki, and the only place that phrase was used referred to the repatriation of fugitives (https://wiki.erfworld.com/Hvs.tCF_9). When Jil was a fugitive (https://wiki.erfworld.com/IPTSF_Text_46), the text said, "If Jillian could manage to stack up with any regular unit from her side, then she would be considered 'rescued' and would be a Faq field unit once more." That might imply that "full" and "field" are equivalent, but it seems that being a fugitive is a very different thing than being a garrison unit.

Now I think that when Bea said that she "promot[ed] all garrison units to full," she meant to field units, but not further, but I'm still not sure about that. Since she said that she spent "most" of her treasury and gems, not "as much as possible,"I'm leaning toward the idea that she wasn't particularly trying to burn through her treasury. At a minimum, she meant to get garrison units out of the city to be disbanded, though.

[NEO|Phyte]

Her primary concern had been keeping her units out of Gobwin Knob's reach, emptying the treasury to similarly deny the resources was likely a (relatively) happy side effect.

[AgentPaper]

I doubt the Don would have accepted her money even if she offered. He would have refused it, and tried to talk her out of what she intended to do, and perhaps even succeeded.

Which is probably exactly why she didn't try, and didn't talk to him aside from a letter sent after it was too late for him to respond. She had decided that she needed to commit suicide, and generally people who have decided that don't try to talk to people who might convince them otherwise.

[memnarch]

Huh, I guess I never thought of it, but seeing blood drip from a small head scratch would be gross when worse injuries than that don't do anything like it at all.


Kalashnikov == Кала́шников for those who have to look it up like I did.

[Killer Angel]

Huh, I guess I never thought of it, but seeing blood drip from a small head scratch would be gross when worse injuries than that don't do anything like it at all.


Kalashnikov == Кала́шников for those who have to look it up like I did.

Yeah, the sound effects are great. :smallbiggrin:

And I've the impression that very soon the treasury will receive some cash...

[eschmenk]

Huh, I guess I never thought of it, but seeing blood drip from a small head scratch would be gross when worse injuries than that don't do anything like it at all.


Kalashnikov == Кала́шников for those who have to look it up like I did.

At first I thought that Jack had blood on his clothing, but it's just red from the GK uniforms showing through him. The same is true with Parson (red color only).


Yeah, the sound effects are great. :smallbiggrin:

And I've the impression that very soon the treasury will receive some cash...

Yes, it may be quite a bit more, actually. Marie seems to be expecting more injuries, so that probably means that the Archons will shoot at Lilith and also hit someone in the MK. (It might not be anyone from GK, though.) There seemed to be additional broken things in the vault area that Lilith could [EDIT: toss] through through the portal, so it wouldn't be surprising if the Bonnie opened the vault doors and ordered the other Archons to open up on Lilith.

GK had only 88,000 in its treasury (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/098) before Lilith caused the material harm. I wonder what Charlie got for the other 412,000.

Marie knew that she was going to be hurt, so that pretty much confirms that she was intentionally protecting Wanda with her body. She's still staying between Wanda and the portal at the bottom of the page, even though Wanda is far to one side.

[halfeye]

In spoilers because the GItP site has been up and down at least a couple of times today.

So now we know, no fatalities this side of the portal.

I shall be interested to see where the plot goes from here.

[Killer Angel]

I shall be interested to see where the plot goes from here.

I predict machine guns fire grinds through MK

[tonberrian]

Yes, it may be quite a bit more, actually. Marie seems to be expecting more injuries, so that probably means that the Archons will shoot at Lilith and also hit someone in the MK. (It might not be anyone from GK, though.) There seemed to be additional broken things in the vault area that Lilith could through through the portal, so it wouldn't be surprising if the Bonnie opened the vault doors and ordered the other Archons to open up on Lilith.

GK had only 88,000 in its treasury (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/098) before Lilith caused the material harm. I wonder what Charlie got for the other 412,000.

Marie knew that she was going to be hurt, so that pretty much confirms that she was intentionally protecting Wanda with her body. She's still staying between Wanda and the portal at the bottom of the page, even though Wanda is far to one side.

My bet? Gobwin Knob.

[Lethologica]

My bet? Gobwin Knob.
Man, I hope not. The implied value of the gems under GK makes it pretty darn valuable.

[eschmenk]

My bet? Gobwin Knob.

Actually, I'm not sure, but I think Charlie would probably get to choose based on Charlie saying that he would claim Lilith after Parson invaded, but Lilith will be killed before he does, so the choice will be taken away from him. I also doubt that Rob would really want to assign a Shmucker value to cities and units. OTOH, if GK lost the city of GK, that might have some interesting consequences. I'm not sure how Stanley would react.


Man, I hope not. The implied value of the gems under GK makes it pretty darn valuable.

I guess it might depend on the value of the city or units or whatever are calculated. If the gems inside the volcano were counted in the city's value and there were too many gems, then GK wouldn't be chosen. OTOH, if the cash you get for razing it were used instead, Charlescomm might get several of GK's cities.

[archon_huskie]

Kalashnikov == Кала́шников for those who have to look it up like I did.

Thanks! But what does it mean? I wonder.

[DataNinja]

Thanks! But what does it mean? I wonder.

It's a type of Russian rifle.

A brand which was used to shoot Doc Brown in back to the future. Doc Brown, who appears in panel four of this comic.

[memnarch]

It's a type of Russian rifle.

A brand which was used to shoot Doc Brown in back to the future. Doc Brown, who appears in panel four of this comic.

Ooo, good eye. Perhaps that's one of the bystanders that gets hit when the Archon tripods open fire?

[Zalabim]

He may not have gotten anything besides the money just yet. Charlie might have a pop up window asking him what unit/assets he wants to claim to make up the difference, which he might not be able to select while he's knocked offline like this. Either way, it's definitely a sword hanging over GK right now, so it's probably the subject in the next page or two.

[archon_huskie]

It's a type of Russian rifle.

A brand which was used to shoot Doc Brown in back to the future. Doc Brown, who appears in panel four of this comic.

Thank you! great eye!

[eschmenk]

He may not have gotten anything besides the money just yet. Charlie might have a pop up window asking him what unit/assets he wants to claim to make up the difference, which he might not be able to select while he's knocked offline like this. Either way, it's definitely a sword hanging over GK right now, so it's probably the subject in the next page or two.

Yes, I was thinking that Charlie depends on having tons of information while he makes decisions, so he might wait to be reconnected to the arcendish before making any decisions. If he's smart, he'll take any remaining GK goblins twolls. That would hurt GKs ability to copy the guns.

In addition to the heavy machine guns mounted on tripods, it looked like two of the Archons were carrying RPKs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RPK) (light machine guns based off the Kalashnikov design). I think they were told to "get on the vault doors." Maybe they will be the ones to open fire rather than the tripods if the idea is to shoot Doc Brown with a Kalashnikov. Here is a link (http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Back_to_the_Future) for anyone not remembering the scene from the movie. I think Doc Brown in the comic was dressed more the way he was in Back to the Future 2, but I might have forgotten him dressing that way in the original movie.

[Marcelinari]

Yes, I was thinking that Charlie depends on having tons of information while he makes decisions, so he might wait to be reconnected to the arcendish before making any decisions. If he's smart, he'll take any remaining GK goblins. That would hurt GKs ability to copy the guns.

I don't think GK has any gobwins whatsoever. The tribal system works as if each tribe was an independent side, and the gobwins appear to have pledged their loyalty to Charlie (as of Binding Arbitration). The Hobgobwins as well. As you can see (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/18), when Vurp turned, the other Hobs turned instantly - as if the tribe had switched it's allegiances to Charlie. Without any natural allies, it's impossible to pop more. Not to mention that if Gobwin Knob had any more gobwins or hobgobwins, the Juggle Elves (being elves) would have refused to form an alliance.

[eschmenk]

Sorry, I was conflating the Twolls with the Gobwins. (Not enough coffee, I guess.) I'm assuming that the Twolls' fabrication abilities would allow GK to duplicate the guns Lilith threw through the portal. If Charlie took all the Twolls, GK probably couldn't fabricate the weapons. That could be wrong if some of the Juggle Elves have natural fabrication, but I doubt their quality control would be very good. GK could pop more Twolls, too, but loosing their existing Twolls would probably slow them down.

But yes, you are right. GK has no Gobwins or Hobgobwins anymore.

[Mobius Twist]

Sorry, I was conflating the Twolls with the Gobwins. (Not enough coffee, I guess.) I'm assuming that the Twolls' fabrication abilities would allow GK to duplicate the guns Lilith threw through the portal. If Charlie took all the Twolls, GK probably couldn't fabricate the weapons. That could be wrong if some of the Juggle Elves have natural fabrication, but I doubt their quality control would be very good. GK could pop more Twolls, too, but loosing their existing Twolls would probably slow them down.

But yes, you are right. GK has no Gobwins or Hobgobwins anymore.


Twoll's fabrication is implied to be strictly of a non-magical capacity. We've seen Zhopa make a picnic basket, Bogroll make an armor breastplate, and some other minor, non-magical stuff.

Dollamancy is what was involved in making the guns, and so long as Ace Hardware still walks and talks, he'll be the one to do the reverse engineering on the guns.

[Yuki Akuma]

Fabrication is Natural Dollamancy.

That said, if guns are magical weapons, Twolls probably can't Fabricate them.

Although if you'll remember, Bogroll was the one who put together Parson's sword from the three Stupid Meal prizes.

[eschmenk]

Maybe the Twolls could at least fabricate the parts, then Ace makes the gun work? The production rate might be much greater than what Ace could accomplish by himself. :smallconfused:

[Bird]

Part of the reason that guns are such a big deal may be that they aren't magical weapons.** Ace already knows how to make a magic item that fires a projectile, but guns presumably aren't limited in the ways that shockamancy bracers are. Guns likely don't require the same juice to construct, don't have whatever the natural limitations of shockamancy are, etc.

That said, even if they're non-magic, I see why you'd still want a good dollamancer to make guns. In stupidworld, guns require a much higher degree of precision to craft properly than baskets or chairs. Twolls may just not be skillful enough to get the job done.

So, maybe Ace will train some twolls personally. Or maybe, as eschmenk suggests, they can be used to fabricate some of the materials--but Ace will be responsible for the precision work.

(**Of course, there's nothing I can see to stop someone from making magic guns if they wanted, just as you could make a magic sword. A gun you never have to reload would be useful. I can't remember--do we know if quivers of arrows run out in Erfworld? I'm guessing that bottomless quivers are a function of having the archery special?)

[NEO|Phyte]

I can't remember--do we know if quivers of arrows run out in Erfworld? I'm guessing that bottomless quivers are a function of having the archery special?)

Ammo is a thing, one of the text updates during the battle for spacerock had the decrypted archer warlady using a hobgobwin to recover arrows for her. I think it was a hob anyway, it was someone.

[eschmenk]

Ammo is a thing, one of the text updates during the battle for spacerock had the decrypted archer warlady using a hobgobwin to recover arrows for her. I think it was a hob anyway, it was someone.

You are probably thinking of Lady Sylvia and a Hobgobwin named Fud (https://wiki.erfworld.com/LIAB_Text_39), although the arrows were really for Captain Archer. But yes, the arrows were a limited resource there.

[stsasser]

How close to the 30 full turns expiration of the Declaration of Non-Agression are we?

If Charlescomm takes GK, are The Tool and his Juggle Elves close enough to recapture it before it can be garrisoned effectively?

[DataNinja]

New one is up. (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/115)

Well, guess we know what 'material damage' is.

[Stegyre]

Seems pretty obvious what Charlie has chosen as his spoils, as I know what I'd choose in his position.
Parson

[-D-]

Seems pretty obvious what Charlie has chosen as his spoils, as I know what I'd choose in his position.
Parson
That could be interesting, but seems iffy. Why build all those characters?

If that happens - Parson takes the gun and shoots everyone there, causing more than 160 mil worth of damage. We know he can disobey orders.

Personally, I see Wanda as better prize. Ability to decrypt Archons would make Charlie a way more formidable threat. And Wanda was set as the villain all this time. Opposite is - Charlie gets parson sticks him in an air tight vault or summarily executing him?

Point is moot anyway: It's possible that Parson, Wanda and Tool have more than 500,000 Shmuckers worth.

[Killer Angel]

well, we all knew that signing that contract was a bad idea...

[Quild]

Seems pretty obvious what Charlie has chosen as his spoils, as I know what I'd choose in his position.
Parson

We don't know how unit's values is calculated. Considering his high upkeep, Parson may be worth more than what Charlie could claim.

He's probably going to claim Lilith.
Maybe casters?

[AgentPaper]

I expect him to claim key units in the GK army, who can sit around for a bit and gather intelligence on their operations at worst, or get attacked by unknowing soldiers and allow him to rack up even more claims at best.

[eschmenk]

Under the contract, Charlie isn't allowed to have any units who are near GK cities. It would seem to me that he would immediately be in violation if he claimed any GK units without simultaneously claiming any nearby GK city. Of course the units in MK wouldn't be near a GK city, so he could claim them. Units out in the field wouldn't have any reason to attack Charlescomm units. It's not as if Parson had ever told them to do so.

[Hawk7915]

It'll be interesting to see how this goes. My assumption for both Titanic fairness, Schmucker's value, and drama purposes, is that Charlescomm can't claim anything that would just end the side - no Parson, Wanda, Stanley, or Jetstone. I'm also curious if he can claim decrypted units. Probably since they can be captured/turned. My bet is he claims the entire retinue of troops and casters that GK has in the Magic Kingdom: Jack, Maggie, Sylvia, and all those troops. This gives him two shiny casters with massive amounts of intel plus a sizeable army inside the MK. Also maximizes the drama for Parson (losing his best friend and a woman who loves him). This is foreshadowed by Parson noting that Jack is "the only person he's ever been able to talk strategy with" - losing him is a really massive loss. He may also claim Lilith (but if that happens I bet she suicides in response). Curious if he can claim gear/artifacts too - like the guns, or Parson's bracer. As I feared, this is going to be bad, possibly catastrophically bad, for our heroes.

[eschmenk]

As I feared, this is going to be bad, possibly catastrophically bad, for our heroes.

Marie isn't panicking, so I assume things are going according to her plan. Of course, her plan is rather sparse, but since she isn't panicking, I won't. :smallsmile:

[AgentPaper]

Under the contract, Charlie isn't allowed to have any units who are near GK cities. It would seem to me that he would immediately be in violation if he claimed any GK units without simultaneously claiming any nearby GK city. Of course the units in MK wouldn't be near a GK city, so he could claim them. Units out in the field wouldn't have any reason to attack Charlescomm units. It's not as if Parson had ever told them to do so.

Hm, what if he takes a city but none of the units in or around it?

[Yuki Akuma]

Hm, what if he takes a city but none of the units in or around it?

Then they'll immediately take it back from him because GK will have units in its garrison and Charlescomm won't.

[Killer Angel]

Then they'll immediately take it back from him because GK will have units in its garrison and Charlescomm won't.

Taking an entire Charlie's city...wouldn't it be a further, enormous violation of the contract by GK? :smalltongue:

[DigoDragon]

Marie isn't panicking, so I assume things are going according to her plan. Of course, her plan is rather sparse, but since she isn't panicking, I won't. :smallsmile:

This is my stance as well. Its' not over until Marie panics. :smallbiggrin:

One thought that might save Parson here with the contract debt~
Lilith does something to provoke one of Charlie's archons to shoot her, canceling the debt, before Charlie plugs back into the grid. Maybe She get a veil to look like Parson?

[memnarch]

This is my stance as well. Its' not over until Marie panics. :smallbiggrin:

One thought that might save Parson here with the contract debt~
Lilith does something to provoke one of Charlie's archons to shoot her, canceling the debt, before Charlie plugs back into the grid. Maybe She get a veil to look like Parson?

Another option for Parson could be
Sticking his head through the portal and getting shot at while Lilith screens.

[eschmenk]

This is my stance as well. Its' not over until Marie panics. :smallbiggrin:

One thought that might save Parson here with the contract debt~
Lilith does something to provoke one of Charlie's archons to shoot her, canceling the debt, before Charlie plugs back into the grid. Maybe She get a veil to look like Parson?

Yeah, I think Yogi Berra said that it's not over until the fat lady panics or something like that. :smallamused:

Unfortunately, Lilith unfortunately doesn't have much juice left and she doesn't have the advantage of starting out with something that looks similar. Archons are good at detecting veils, anyway.


Another option for Parson could be
Sticking his head through the portal and getting shot at while Lilith screens.

That probably would be very risky . Just poking his head in and withdrawing quickly probably wouldn't work. Charlie didn't want the Archons to open fire unless they were certain that Charlecomm could claim the body (allowing Wanda to decrypt Parson would defeat the purpose of killing him). It might count as an invasion and if so it would cost GK another 500,000 worth of whatever Charlie wants if it didn't work.

Marie might be able to be veiled as Parson and go in, but that would be pretty much suicidal. She would probably have have to go far enough to convince the Archons that she would fall inside Charlescomm. (Marie pretty much refused to do it without a veil.)

It might annoy the MK, but I wonder if it would be worth it to try to decrypt the Archon there. I don't know how much she would know about things.

In addition to the normal reasons that trying to get someone to shoot at you with machine guns would seem risky.

[HalfTangible]

... Is there a reason that Charlie couldn't press a claim on Stanley?

[Douglas]

I would guess that a Ruler is counted as having the value of his entire side for such things, and is thus far beyond the 400-something thousand Shmuckers worth that Charlie can demand.

[Killer Angel]

Another option for Parson could be
Sticking his head through the portal and getting shot at while Lilith screens.

Wasn't "Hero complex plus death wish" a wrong psycological evaluation by Charlie? :smalltongue:

[Zalabim]

I think part of the changes everything nature of the guns is that they can shoot through portals into the MK. Charlie is stockpiling weapons that can be used to take over ALL of Erfworld, MK inclusive. That knowledge should turn some heads. I'm hazy on it now, but I think the reason Parson was able to get soldiers into the MK is because the Decrypted are made by a caster. The guns may allow any unit to break in.

[NEO|Phyte]

I think part of the changes everything nature of the guns is that they can shoot through portals into the MK. Charlie is stockpiling weapons that can be used to take over ALL of Erfworld, MK inclusive. That knowledge should turn some heads. I'm hazy on it now, but I think the reason Parson was able to get soldiers into the MK is because the Decrypted are made by a caster. The guns may allow any unit to break in.

Parson got decryped into the magic kingdom because corpses aren't people. They were brought in as bodies, then decrypted inside the magic kingdom.

[Welf]

Interesting that Carneys can sense the feelings of people around them, or at least if they believe in them. He probably uses the arkendish to amplify his ability to sense and create this feeling in his archons.
I don't think Charley would claim Parson, unless he can instantly disband him or send him back with the carnymancy scroll. There has been some debate if it is even possible to disband to Parson, and the scroll isn't nearby. Parson as CC unit would be in perfect position to assassinate him, especially as warlord who can command the archons and other units. Charley can overrule any warlord, but it would still be a risk.
I don't think Stanley can be taken as unit, because it is such an obvious killer move that it would have been ruled out in the contract. But that is just circumstantial evidence.

[eschmenk]

I think part of the changes everything nature of the guns is that they can shoot through portals into the MK. Charlie is stockpiling weapons that can be used to take over ALL of Erfworld, MK inclusive. That knowledge should turn some heads. I'm hazy on it now, but I think the reason Parson was able to get soldiers into the MK is because the Decrypted are made by a caster. The guns may allow any unit to break in.

Well, Charlie did something. The damage from the RPG went through the portal. According to the artwork, that included debris from the explosion. It appears that the machine guns can fire through the portal, too, based on what Charlie said and Parson's speculation.

A more worrying possibility, though, is that it's not the guns and RPGs that were changed; it's the portal itself. If that's the case, perhaps even live Archons could go through the portal. If so, Lilith could get out, but Charlie definitely could take over the entire MK. Perhaps he could modify the other portals, too, and invade anywhere with a large army of Archons once he secured the MK.

I'm not clear on why Parson's toy soldier golem was able to go through Charlescomm's portal. I would have thought that there would be protections against being able to send armies of golems through portals. Could the fact that the golem went both ways signify that there was something unusual about Charlescomm's portal?

I don't think that simply holding a magic item would allow anyone to pass through any portal. It would be much too easy to equip an entire army with easily made magic items.


Interesting that Carneys can sense the feelings of people around them, or at least if they believe in them. He probably uses the arkendish to amplify his ability to sense and create this feeling in his archons.
I don't think Charley would claim Parson, unless he can instantly disband him or send him back with the carnymancy scroll. There has been some debate if it is even possible to disband to Parson, and the scroll isn't nearby. Parson as CC unit would be in perfect position to assassinate him, especially as warlord who can command the archons and other units. Charley can overrule any warlord, but it would still be a risk.
I don't think Stanley can be taken as unit, because it is such an obvious killer move that it would have been ruled out in the contract. But that is just circumstantial evidence.

Well, Charlie wouldn't promote Parson to being a Chief Warlord and would probably keep him locked up. (I'm assuming that if you capture the other side's Chief Warlord, they don't automatically become your side's Chief Warlord.) Charlie wanted to capture Parson during the battle for GK. I wouldn't be surprised if he would still like to do that.

I'm a bit concerned that Charlie might have learned enough while he was inside Lilith's head that he could decrypt Parson. I know Charlie wanted to have Parson killed only if he could claim the body. The main reason would probably be that he wouldn't want Parson decryped by Wanda, but I wonder if he would like to try to decrypt Parson using the arkendish.

[DigoDragon]

A more worrying possibility, though, is that it's not the guns and RPGs that were changed; it's the portal itself. If that's the case, perhaps even live Archons could go through the portal.

Such knowledge getting out would probably not be good for Charlie's already faltering PR. Information is a commodity in Charlie's business so... maybe Parson can sell his silence for a lower bill?



I'm a bit concerned that Charlie might have learned enough while he was inside Lilith's head that he could decrypt Parson. I know Charlie wanted to have Parson killed only if he could claim the body. The main reason would probably be that he wouldn't want Parson decryped by Wanda, but I wonder if he would like to try to decrypt Parson using the arkendish.

Though wouldn't that be Bosley-fying in his case? :smallbiggrin:

[Analytica]

Charlie wants Parson since he is a completely unique asset.

If Parson goes to Charlie, he will have a gun. And he will have to turn to Charlescomm.

You know who else is at Charlescomm? Vurp, who knows about but previously could not tell (despite wanting to) Parson about what actually happened between Stanley and Saline IV, namely how exactly a unit can betray and usurp its ruler.

I think this is what Fate is planning.

[-D-]

Charlie wants Parson since he is a completely unique asset.

If Parson goes to Charlie, he will have a gun. And he will have to turn to Charlescomm.

You know who else is at Charlescomm? Vurp, who knows about but previously could not tell (despite wanting to) Parson about what actually happened between Stanley and Saline IV, namely how exactly a unit can betray and usurp its ruler.

I think this is what Fate is planning.

Your idea is nice but doesn't explain the Chekov's healing scroll. But, that won't happen. Charlie will either put Parson in an incinerator (remember the get the body talk) or order him to retrieve the return scroll from MK and sends fat ass back to Ohio (or wherever).

However, Parson seems to be able to disobey orders, if he wishes to. My guess is that Parson gets claimed, takes his gun and shoots everyone currently present from GK in the arm. This causes Charlie to lose 160 mil Shmuckers and so GK can have whatever Charlie took from them.

[The Glyphstone]

Parson can only disobey orders because of the Duty mechanic, when it's better for his side to ignore a bad order. I can't see any way that causing his 'new' side' to lose a bunch of money would be to its benefit, so Duty wouldn't allow him to do so.

[Landis963]

Parson can only disobey orders because of the Duty mechanic, when it's better for his side to ignore a bad order. I can't see any way that causing his 'new' side' to lose a bunch of money would be to its benefit, so Duty wouldn't allow him to do so.

Except he can do mental gymnastics that normal Erfworlders wouldn't think of. For instance: "I'm going to willfully misinterpret each and every order I can to Charlescomm's detriment, so therefore it would be better for Charlescomm if I wasn't on their side." And that's what I came up with off the top of my head, it would be much, much worse once Parson really put his mind to detaching himself from Charlie.

[NEO|Phyte]

Parson can only disobey orders because of the Duty mechanic, when it's better for his side to ignore a bad order. I can't see any way that causing his 'new' side' to lose a bunch of money would be to its benefit, so Duty wouldn't allow him to do so.

He can also disobey orders out of sheer ignorance, like that time he figured out he has to go physically visit assorted prop buildings to make them function better.

[The Glyphstone]

He can also disobey orders out of sheer ignorance, like that time he figured out he has to go physically visit assorted prop buildings to make them function better.

Was he given a direct order to do that?

[DigoDragon]

Was he given a direct order to do that?

I think doing an "inspection" of the city was giving the city a warlord bonus or something. But all he had to do was walk the city perimeter for the bonus. Making the buildings functional was an added project he did.

[DataNinja]

I think doing an "inspection" of the city was giving the city a warlord bonus or something. But all he had to do was walk the city perimeter for the bonus. Making the buildings functional was an added project he did.

No, he was supposed to inspect them. Ordered, in fact.

Relavant page. (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%202/14)

[Douglas]

As I understand it, Parson was ordered to do something but did not understand what was actually required to fulfill the order. He did what he thought he was supposed to, and learned only after the fact that he'd been supposed to do more.

This example demonstrates that Parson can disobey an order through ignorance, but not necessarily through deliberate defiance. In fact, it includes an example that orders he does understand are compulsory, when Stanley orders him to slap himself.

[-D-]

This example demonstrates that Parson can disobey an order through ignorance, but not necessarily through deliberate defiance. In fact, it includes an example that orders he does understand are compulsory, when Stanley orders him to slap himself.
It's unlikely, but remember this is the guy that can break the curse filter of Erfworld*. He isn't 100% subject to Erf's rule. He also seems able to imagine a demise of his Ruler, which in Epilogue 06 (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%201/169) Maggie and Sizemore found impossible.


"If I took a brick and threw it," Parson said, still looking over the edge, "and I hit Stanley smack in the middle of his forehead from here, what would happen?"

There was silence. A chilly little breeze picked up. He glanced at Maggie, who kind of looked like she was choking on a piece of fish but didn't want to bother anyone with her problems. In other words, her usual expression, only more so. Sizemore only looked fascinated at the implications of the question. "Would he croak?" Parson asked.

Sizemore cleared his throat. "You wouldn't be able to throw it. He's your Overlord."


So if Parson becomes CC property, and is ordered to go fetch the return scroll. He could either order Archons to fire on GK infantry through the portal or start shooting GK troops himself in hopes of getting money back or getting decrypted.

*Yeah, I know curse filter was for meta reasons.

[smuchmuch]

If Parson turns to CC he will be surounded by tons of Gk decrypted units out of CC turn so it's more of a condemnation of death.

But I think, if Charlie indeed claims a GK unit ( if the "contract penalty" clause do works that way), that he'll take Wanda instead.
I mean he gets a master class croakmancer (in which he already had personal interest since the prequel thing) with a second arkentool, all of the decrypted units, Parson is imediatly surounded and can be baged and his mathamancy artifact can be recuperated... That seems honnestly the best move here. And then he could even have her decrypt Parson.

[Cazero]

All this talk and nobody mentionned Loyalty yet.
If Charlie claims Parson, Parson's Loyalty to CC will be abysmaly low, he will fear for his very life, and he will turn back to GK immediatly for the cost of zero shmuckers.
If Charlie were to claim a 'named' unit, it would be Wanda. She isn't loyal to sides but to Fate, and she is really bad at understanding Fate.

[Coidzor]

[SPOILER]If Parson turns to CC he will be surounded by tons of Gk decrypted units out of CC turn so it's more of a condemnation of death./SPOILER]

The GK units all have leadership as part of safely functioning in the Magic Kingdom and Parson is a Warlord unit, so both parties are capable of choosing not to engage. It's only unled units that auto-engage enemy units, IIRC.

[ryuplaneswalker]

All this talk and nobody mentionned Loyalty yet.
If Charlie claims Parson, Parson's Loyalty to CC will be abysmaly low, he will fear for his very life, and he will turn back to GK immediatly for the cost of zero shmuckers.
If Charlie were to claim a 'named' unit, it would be Wanda. She isn't loyal to sides but to Fate, and she is really bad at understanding Fate.

Charlie however is a smart person and should know that Wanda is a Pox upon whatever side she infests so it is in his best interest to have her far away where she causes other people harm.

[AgentPaper]

Charlie however is a smart person and should know that Wanda is a Pox upon whatever side she infests so it is in his best interest to have her far away where she causes other people harm.

Does he actually know her that well? Hell, even most people close to her don't know the extent of how badly she's messed things up in the past.

[eschmenk]

I think we haven't been told the specifics of a couple of important things. Some of the assumptions people are making may be wrong.

1) We don't know if Parson's loyalty works in the same way as for other units. His loyalty is imposed by the Summon Perfect Warlord Spell, not by normal Erfworld rules. He might not act like any other unit.

2) We don't know how claiming units as payment works. Would claimed units become prisoners? Switch sides? Be automagically transported elsewhere? I expect Jack to explain that to Parson, but he hasn't done that yet.

3) We don't know how Charlie could use Weirdomancy or Turnamancy to alter either of the other two.


Does he actually know her that well? Hell, even most people close to her don't know the extent of how badly she's messed things up in the past.

He was inside her brain. He hacked the eyebooks. He must know that she attuned to an arcentool, so he would know that he needs to keep an eye on her. So, yes, he would know her very well.

[Mando Knight]

Does he actually know her that well? Hell, even most people close to her don't know the extent of how badly she's messed things up in the past.

I think Charlie would know it better than anyone else on Erf.

[DigoDragon]

Can Charlie claim equipment? He might want his guns back before a side that doesn't like him gets a hold of the secret to make their own (or a counter to them).

[smuchmuch]

Charlie however is a smart person and should know that Wanda is a Pox upon whatever side she infests so it is in his best interest to have her far away where she causes other people harm

He can alway either disband her or get rid of her some other way later.
In the short term if he 'claims' her (assuming it works this way), all decrypted units get into his control, including all the decrypted archons he wanted so bad to get his hands on and he gets an extra chance to get his gun back and parson artifact if he can use the decrypted around to kill/capture him. That'd be way worth taking the risk of having Wanda on his side for a litle while.

Besides as we've seen, Charlie is not alway that great a juge of character. (proof, him expectng Parson to jump through the portal)


2) We don't know how claiming units as payment works. Would claimed units become prisoners? Switch sides? Be automagically transported elsewhere? I expect Jack to explain that to Parson, but he hasn't done that yet.

I would assume switching sides but point.


Can Charlie claim equipment? He might want his guns back before a side that doesn't like him gets a hold of the secret to make their own (or a counter to them).

How'd that work, though ?
I mean the guns we're already his anyway, unless 'reclaiming' them imediatly teleport them out of Parson hands and into his tower, they'll remain stolen if Parson doesnt hand them back.

[ryuplaneswalker]

In the short term if he 'claims' her (assuming it works this way), all decrypted units get into his control, including all the decrypted archons he wanted so bad to get his hands on and he gets an extra chance to get his gun back and parson artifact if he can use the decrypted around to kill/capture him. That'd be way worth taking the risk of having Wanda on his side for a litle while.

We don't know any of that for sure, and ordering Wanda to "kill Parson" may end up backfiring horribly since we have seen Wanda not take easy shots against a target she has been ordered to do so against.

[Aquillion]

We don't actually know that the Decrypted would all follow Wanda if the turned. Most probably would, but Lilith indicated pretty clearly that either her loyalty to her side or her hatred for Charlie overrode her loyalty to Wanda -- there was a conflict, but she ended up telling Parson the truth.

[DataNinja]

New Comic (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%203/116)

Well... Looks like Charlie is getting his flowers beamed straight into his brain. And he's not aware of anything else while he does that.

[Quild]

I didn't thought that it would be that hard to pay what was asked for.
And I wonder what the "decline" option would have triggered.

As expected, Charlie claimed Lilith among the other things.
But Gobwin Knob... I did not saw that coming.

[Killer Angel]

Not so easy, to gain some time, if you have a ringing bell in your head... :smallamused:

[DigoDragon]

How'd that work, though ?
I mean the guns we're already his anyway, unless 'reclaiming' them imediatly teleport them out of Parson hands and into his tower, they'll remain stolen if Parson doesnt hand them back.

Dunno. Probably just involve Parson throwing them back through the portal. Guess we'll see how Parson wiggles out of this one.



I didn't thought that it would be that hard to pay what was asked for.
And I wonder what the "decline" option would have triggered.

As expected, Charlie claimed Lilith among the other things.
But Gobwin Knob... I did not saw that coming.

Gobwin Knob makes sense. Take away the city that Parson felt most like home here in Erf in order to demoralize him a bit. :3

[halfeye]

So Charlie is currently a junkie? That explains his attitude somewhat, paranoid still but chemically induced rather than native. Olive Branch got off very lightly.

[Marcelinari]

Parson seems to be under a time constraint and fairly invasive distraction, so I can more than understand why he's not thinking straight. There might be a neat trick to get some of that money back, though. Offer Charlie a good deal (Unaroyal, Orgchart, Warchalking, their inhabitants, and all the gems, plus maybe another small city or two), and intersperse it with unled stacks of infantry in otherwise Gobwin-Knob held cities. Maybe some twolls, too. Then watch those unled stacks autoattack the now-enemy units around them, bringing in a cool 5 mil for every combat engaged. The problem of course being that it's a counteroffer, and it's Charlie's prerogative to review and potentially reject it if he sees the trick.

This is also a good opportunity to find out how much Parson himself is 'worth'. That should bring some perspective to the current negotiation.

[Hawk7915]

Man Charlie's offer is actually shockingly reasonable. Clearly he has an angle and emotionally Parson is clearly unwilling to toss away Maggie or Lilith but he could have done so much worse for an initial offer. Was expecting Jack, Sizemore, and Ace in the mix.

[Legato Endless]

Heh, Garden Channel.

Oh Ace. You've finally got a new boss who totally appreciates your capabilities, but you're still considered the most expendable caster of the group.

[Anteros]

It's unlikely, but remember this is the guy that can break the curse filter of Erfworld*. He isn't 100% subject to Erf's rule. He also seems able to imagine a demise of his Ruler, which in Epilogue 06 (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%201/169) Maggie and Sizemore found impossible.



I think they were just incredulous he would suggest it, rather than it being impossible to think about. If it were impossible to imagine the demise of your own ruler you wouldn't have people breaking sides, or betrayals. They seem capable of imagining the scenario once he suggests it...they're just surprised he would do so.




Heh, Garden Channel.

Oh Ace. You've finally got a new boss who totally appreciates your capabilities, but you're still considered the most expendable caster of the group.

I think it's less that he's expendable, and more that Parson doesn't have much emotional attachment.

[Aquillion]

Man Charlie's offer is actually shockingly reasonable. Clearly he has an angle and emotionally Parson is clearly unwilling to toss away Maggie or Lilith but he could have done so much worse for an initial offer. Was expecting Jack, Sizemore, and Ace in the mix.I think that the point. He deliberately made a reasonable-seeming offer that he knew Parson would reject for emotional reasons in order to force him to parley.

[Mando Knight]

This is also a good opportunity to find out how much Parson himself is 'worth'. That should bring some perspective to the current negotiation.

The spell that summoned him cost 500k Shmuckers (http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+1/5), when including casting services.

[-D-]

I think they were just incredulous he would suggest it, rather than it being impossible to think about. If it were impossible to imagine the demise of your own ruler you wouldn't have people breaking sides, or betrayals. They seem capable of imagining the scenario once he suggests it...they're just surprised he would do so.

A valid point. It still strikes me that Parson thought of that scenario way too fast. He's been taking theoretical thoughts about killing his Ruler after about a week? So far, people seem to take a lot of time to actually decide and deposit their leader.

[ryuplaneswalker]

Man Charlie's offer is actually shockingly reasonable

Yes, which is why it is a complete trap.

[ThirdEmperor]

I dunno, the trap seems to be in refusing it. Don't forget the experiment where Charlie sent Parson cash and got him to send it back to find out why. Charlie will gamble.

[Quild]

I think that putting Gobwin Knob in the balance is not reasonable. Considering the wealth (gems) that lies underneath, this city is Worth a lot in mid/long term.

[Lethologica]

Win/win for Charlie. But then, it's easy to get a win/win when your opponent is in debt up to his eyeballs, so I think we're overthinking this.

[DigoDragon]

Win/win for Charlie. But then, it's easy to get a win/win when your opponent is in debt up to his eyeballs, so I think we're overthinking this.

Charlie's specialty is setting himself up for a Win/Win. Parson's counter specialty is thinking outside the box to find a third option that takes away some of that win. :D

[Chives]

I'm not so sure it's a reasonable offer. After all, Maggie does know a great deal of thinkamancy that he (currently) can't access via the dish. If he knows for sure that she's a part of the great minds conspiracy the deal gets even better for Charlie.

[NEO|Phyte]

Especially if he figures out about Maggie's feelings towards Parson.

Also, this update gives us some notable insight as to what the 'Dish does. Specifically, it seems to augment the extra 'senses' that seem to be native to Erfworld, and quite likely also allows access to ones a unit wouldn't normally have. Though it's hard to say how much of that is natural dish network and how much is from Charlie's tinkering.

[SZbNAhL]

If he knows for sure that she's a part of the great minds conspiracy the deal gets even better for Charlie.

Maybe this would actually make her the best unit to give him. Aren't all the conspiracy members altered somehow to have Loyalty to the Great Minds over Loyalty to their side?

[Chromascope3D]

So, I'm sure this has probably been discussed to hell and back, but, considering that the only two other Stupidworlders that we know of (Dorothy and Charlie) both attuned to Arkentools, what does everyone think is the likelihood of Parson finding and attuning to one as well?

[NEO|Phyte]

I don't think Charlie was a stupidworlder, it was theorized for a while, but I'm fairly certain that it's fairly debunked by this point.

[eschmenk]

The idea that Charlie is a stupidworlder may have a chicken and egg problem. As far as we know (https://wiki.erfworld.com/IPTSF_Text_66), Charlie invented the summon perfect warlord spell. I don't think that's ever been stated definitively, but I'm pretty sure that we haven't ever seen any evidence that there was a way to summon a stupidworlder before he did that.

[Legato Endless]

Maybe this would actually make her the best unit to give him. Aren't all the conspiracy members altered somehow to have Loyalty to the Great Minds over Loyalty to their side?

My interpretation was more that because Loyalty is natural thinkamancy, Thinkamancers can game the system better because they understand that loyalty isn't as straightforward as is commonly believed. Wanda is also a good example of unit who can go pretty off the rails because she vows loyalty to a concept whose precepts she doesn't really understand.

[ryuplaneswalker]

New Comic

Oh, nice play by Charlie

[-D-]

New Comic

Oh, nice play by Charlie
This is probably end of book 3.

Also I feel like Rob wrote himself into a corner and wasted two books of character building.

[super dark33]

My bet is parson will go through the portal and shoot Lilith.

[Ravenlord]

Marie's scroll is still in play, though - she predicted there'd be additional injuries. So something is still bound to happen. Maybe Parson will turn the moment he steps through the portal, possibly while getting shot?

[Killer Angel]

wait, i am confused.
What happened to the "parley" thing?
Why is Parson in Neo - mode, ready to attack in first person? :smallconfused:

That said, kudos to Lilith! :smallsmile:

[-D-]

Marie's scroll is still in play, though - she predicted there'd be additional injuries. So something is still bound to happen. Maybe Parson will turn the moment he steps through the portal, possibly while getting shot?
I don't know, I get the sense of finality from the pages. Like it's the end of the book. Perhaps scroll isn't meant to be used right now. I wonder if Parson would order Archons to fire at every unit, but Charlie is on the dish so he could disband him or worse. Besides Charlie would need a lot of damage done to get to claim processing and even then, he gets could file out claim after claim to deplete 300mil+ shmuckers he has in his hoard.