Medusa's Gaze Question

[Elite Hatter]

It says to negate the petrifying gaze a character, unless surprised, can avert it's eyes until it's next turn. During which time it can't see the Medusa. So the question is this, can a PC even target an opponent they can't see? Logically I think no. But it's a fantasy game so logic is moot. RAI I think it just poses disadvantage. But I'm wondering if your even allowed to declare a target you can't see.

Cause: Many spells depend on a target or space you can see.

[hymer]

It says to negate the petrifying gaze a character, unless surprised, can avert it's eyes until it's next turn. During which time it can't see the Medusa. So the question is this, can a PC even target an opponent they can't see? Logically I think no. But it's a fantasy game so logic is moot. RAI I think it just poses disadvantage. But I'm wondering if your even allowed to declare a target you can't see.

Cause: Many spells depend on a target or space you can see.

The characters averting their eyes effectively suffer the Blinded condition. They can still target the medusa with attacks that do not require line of sight (so weapon attacks still work), but take disadvantage on attack rolls. And the medusa gets advantage on hers against those not looking at her.

[krugaan]

It says to negate the petrifying gaze a character, unless surprised, can avert it's eyes until it's next turn. During which time it can't see the Medusa. So the question is this, can a PC even target an opponent they can't see? Logically I think no. But it's a fantasy game so logic is moot. RAI I think it just poses disadvantage. But I'm wondering if your even allowed to declare a target you can't see.

Cause: Many spells depend on a target or space you can see.

basically it's just like invisibility for the medusa... isn't it?

[hymer]

basically it's just like invisibility for the medusa... isn't it?

The effect is very similar, yes.

[Elite Hatter]

That's what I thought. I just wasn't clear on how "targeting" if you will worked in 5e. In my defense it hasn't come up yet with my group. But they will be fighting a Medusa soon and I was wondering how to rule it.

Like I said, that makes the most sense mechanically.

[Pyon]

That's what I thought. I just wasn't clear on how "targeting" if you will worked in 5e. In my defense it hasn't come up yet with my group. But they will be fighting a Medusa soon and I was wondering how to rule it.

Like I said, that makes the most sense mechanically.

The idea is, using the glimpse you got at her while you were looking and your other senses you should be able to pin point where she is and go to her. However the whole hitting her with a weapon thing is the hard part.

[Elite Hatter]

The idea is, using the glimpse you got at her while you were looking and your other senses you should be able to pin point where she is and go to her. However the whole hitting her with a weapon thing is the hard part.

And none of my players have a sheild, plate armor, or a mirror. So reflecting her gaze isn't an option for them..... unless I stock a room full of mirrors and they're like "wtf DM?" Then see a Medusa 4 rooms and like 2 encounters later and go "Ooooooh... eff" XD

[MaxWilson]

Note that the "avert the eyes" thing is not part of the Medusa's powers--it's something opponents will proactively do in order to avoid being subjected to the Medusa's powers, which implies that it's something you can do against anybody. (It also shows up with Umber Hulks.)

Implication #1: you can probably avert your eyes from a Monk of Long Death in order to avoid being frightened.

Implication #2: Disguise Self (Medusa) is a fantastic no-concentration spell against intelligent, monster-savvy opponents.

[Elite Hatter]

Note that the "avert the eyes" thing is not part of the Medusa's powers--it's something opponents will proactively do in order to avoid being subjected to the Medusa's powers, which implies that it's something you can do against anybody. (It also shows up with Umber Hulks.)

Implication #1: you can probably avert your eyes from a Monk of Long Death in order to avoid being frightened.

Implication #2: Disguise Self (Medusa) is a fantastic no-concentration spell against intelligent, monster-savvy opponents.

Please explain implication #2

[Inevitability]

Please explain implication #2

Monster sees illusionary medusa. Monster thinks illusionary medusa is real, doesn't want to get turned to stone, and averts its eyes. Monster is now effectively blinded.

[krugaan]

Monster sees illusionary medusa. Monster thinks illusionary medusa is real, doesn't want to get turned to stone, and averts its eyes. Monster is now effectively blinded.

well ... blinded to the illusionary medusa, yea; not blind to *everything*. Intelligent creatures will likely be able to figure out the illusion if they're trying to hit the medusa, which probably qualifies as touching the illusion.

Corollary #1: disguise self (medusa) works great until you get hit by one mook, who realizes it's an illusion, and then proceeds to look at you normally. Then all his mook buddies will realize the jig is up, and look you in the eyes while they beat you senseless.

Corollary #2: intelligent medusa should always disguise their mooks as medusas to increase the effectiveness of their own gaze attack.

[Elite Hatter]

Monster sees illusionary medusa. Monster thinks illusionary medusa is real, doesn't want to get turned to stone, and averts its eyes. Monster is now effectively blinded.

Oooooh, I thought you meant a Medusa disguising itself.

Which, while on topic, will her gaze still work if she could create an illusionary front?

[MaxWilson]

well ... blinded to the illusionary medusa, yea; not blind to *everything*. Intelligent creatures will likely be able to figure out the illusion if they're trying to hit the medusa, which probably qualifies as touching the illusion.

Corollary #1: disguise self (medusa) works great until you get hit by one mook, who realizes it's an illusion, and then proceeds to look at you normally. Then all his mook buddies will realize the jig is up, and look you in the eyes while they beat you senseless.

Corollary #2: intelligent medusa should always disguise their mooks as medusas to increase the effectiveness of their own gaze attack.

I'm not so sure about Corollary #1*, but Corollary #2 is awesome. Seeming spell FTW! I may steal that idea.

* For one thing, mook #3 may very well not live long enough for his buddies to realize he's safe from your "gaze attack" instead of deliberately risking your gaze attack to avoid giving you advantage on your melee attack. For another thing, it's not a slam-dunk that physical contact would reveal the illusion, since much of the Medusa's body may be congruent with your own (except for the hair).

And even if it only lasts until the first solid hit of every fight during the hour that it lasts, it would still be a good use of a first-level spell slot.

Your bigger worry is that enemies may not recognize a Medusa and know to avert their eyes. E.g. beasts, maybe goblins and orcs.

[krugaan]

* For one thing, mook #3 may very well not live long enough for his buddies to realize he's safe from your "gaze attack" instead of deliberately risking your gaze attack to avoid giving you advantage on your melee attack. For another thing, it's not a slam-dunk that physical contact would reveal the illusion, since much of the Medusa's body may be congruent with your own (except for the hair).

And even if it only lasts until the first solid hit of every fight during the hour that it lasts, it would still be a good use of a first-level spell slot.

Your bigger worry is that enemies may not recognize a Medusa and know to avert their eyes. E.g. beasts, maybe goblins and orcs.

Ah, that's probably true. Don't the hair-snakes hiss?

There's probably some fun puzzle you could do with Corollary #2. Like, the king's haughty daughter has been kidnapped by the evil wizard she spurned. Angry at rejection, wizard dominated and polymorphed her into a medusa. He keeps her in a "harem" of illusionary medusas (actually yuan-ti or something). In order to rescue her, you need to figure out which of the mass of medusas is actually the princess and capture her without killing her, while not dying or being turned to stone yourself.

[Addaran]

Corollary #1: disguise self (medusa) works great until you get hit by one mook, who realizes it's an illusion, and then proceeds to look at you normally. Then all his mook buddies will realize the jig is up, and look you in the eyes while they beat you senseless.


That shouldn't work. Normaly you guess it's an illusion when you hit it because there's really nothing (illusory wall in a field) If you do an illusion of a yellow wall on a red wall, it would need an investigation to get it, not just hitting it with a sword.
Same with an illusion you aren't watching. If the goblin isn't even looking at the "medusa", he shouldn't get an investigation and even if the illusion stopped, he wouldn't know it.

[krugaan]

That shouldn't work. Normaly you guess it's an illusion when you hit it because there's really nothing (illusory wall in a field) If you do an illusion of a yellow wall on a red wall, it would need an investigation to get it, not just hitting it with a sword.
Same with an illusion you aren't watching. If the goblin isn't even looking at the "medusa", he shouldn't get an investigation and even if the illusion stopped, he wouldn't know it.

something about this bugs me... can't you stare at the medusa's feet and avoid her gaze while still suffering the effects of "blinded"?

[MaxWilson]

Ah, that's probably true. Don't the hair-snakes hiss?

There's probably some fun puzzle you could do with Corollary #2. Like, the king's haughty daughter has been kidnapped by the evil wizard she spurned. Angry at rejection, wizard dominated and polymorphed her into a medusa. He keeps her in a "harem" of illusionary medusas (actually yuan-ti or something). In order to rescue her, you need to figure out which of the mass of medusas is actually the princess and capture her without killing her, while not dying or being turned to stone yourself.

Good point about the hissing. That's probably worth a passive Investigation check for anyone in melee range to realize that it's not a real Medusa, unless you use Minor Illusion to provide the hissing as well.

RE: True Polymorphed princess, hopefully it doesn't take longer than an hour to rescue her or she'll be stuck permanently! Also, indiscriminate application of Fireball (plus Healing Word if needed*) within that hour solves the problem. Eventually she'll turn back into a human and the fake Medusas will die; problem solved. :-P

* Further aside: Healing Word will boost you back from 0 HP to consciousness, and a long rest restores you to full HP, but there's nothing in the rules that requires HP damage to not leave scars. It might be fun to track cumulative damage taken over the course of a character's lifetime. "This NPC has 4000 HP worth of scars." If so, the Princess will not thank you for giving her even 7 HP worth of burn scars, and you'll have to choose another tactic.

[krugaan]

Good point about the hissing. That's probably worth a passive Investigation check for anyone in melee range to realize that it's not a real Medusa, unless you use Minor Illusion to provide the hissing as well.

RE: True Polymorphed princess, hopefully it doesn't take longer than an hour to rescue her or she'll be stuck permanently! Also, indiscriminate application of Fireball (plus Healing Word if needed*) within that hour solves the problem. Eventually she'll turn back into a human and the fake Medusas will die; problem solved. :-P

* Further aside: Healing Word will boost you back from 0 HP to consciousness, and a long rest restores you to full HP, but there's nothing in the rules that requires HP damage to not leave scars. It might be fun to track cumulative damage taken over the course of a character's lifetime. "This NPC has 4000 HP worth of scars." If so, the Princess will not thank you for giving her even 7 HP worth of burn scars, and you'll have to choose another tactic.

Viciously mock everything to death! Psychic scars leave no outward signs, right? Pretty on the outside, damaged on the inside, problem solved.

Hopefully your fireball won't overkill the Level 1 commoner princess with 8 hp! There's always raise dead, right?

If you really want to piss off the princess, the incapacitation method of choice is obviously contagion (slimy doom) and have the sub 10 strength wizard punch her in the face for 1 damage every 6 seconds.

[Malifice]

It says to negate the petrifying gaze a character, unless surprised, can avert it's eyes until it's next turn. During which time it can't see the Medusa. So the question is this, can a PC even target an opponent they can't see? Logically I think no. But it's a fantasy game so logic is moot. RAI I think it just poses disadvantage. But I'm wondering if your even allowed to declare a target you can't see.

Cause: Many spells depend on a target or space you can see.

No, you can't.

I'd allow a fireball etc, with a scatter involved.

[Elite Hatter]

No, you can't.

I'd allow a fireball etc, with a scatter involved.

So I just read Making An Attack in the PHB, it states you must target a creature. So, hypothetically they weren't surprised amd have a chance to look away. When they try to attack, is it disadvantage or treated at having total cover? Since in effect they can't see her as If she did have cover. Or is that to harsh for her challenge rating?

[MaxWilson]

So I just read Making An Attack in the PHB, it states you must target a creature. So, hypothetically they weren't surprised amd have a chance to look away. When they try to attack, is it disadvantage or treated at having total cover? Since in effect they can't see her as If she did have cover. Or is that to harsh for her challenge rating?

Blinded != total cover. Total cover is a physical obstruction.

Unless the Medusa attempts to Hide, her location is known, and she can be targeted with disadvantage per usual. That is my ruling based on PHB 290, and I believe it is RAI, but it's controversial. (See e.g. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?454895-Echolocation-for-All&highlight=echolocation if you want someone to argue with about it.)

[Malifice]

So I just read Making An Attack in the PHB, it states you must target a creature. So, hypothetically they weren't surprised amd have a chance to look away. When they try to attack, is it disadvantage or treated at having total cover? Since in effect they can't see her as If she did have cover. Or is that to harsh for her challenge rating?

They have the blinded condition. It's in the PHB what happens.

[Sigreid]

I'm not so sure about Corollary #1*, but Corollary #2 is awesome. Seeming spell FTW! I may steal that idea.

* For one thing, mook #3 may very well not live long enough for his buddies to realize he's safe from your "gaze attack" instead of deliberately risking your gaze attack to avoid giving you advantage on your melee attack. For another thing, it's not a slam-dunk that physical contact would reveal the illusion, since much of the Medusa's body may be congruent with your own (except for the hair).

And even if it only lasts until the first solid hit of every fight during the hour that it lasts, it would still be a good use of a first-level spell slot.

Your bigger worry is that enemies may not recognize a Medusa and know to avert their eyes. E.g. beasts, maybe goblins and orcs.

A group of fake medusa before the real one....

[Desamir]

PHB 194:

Unseen Attackers and Targets

When you attack a target that you can't see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll. This is true whether you're guessing the target's location or you're targeting a creature you can hear but not see.

When a creature can't see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it.

TL;DR: Even if you can't see the medusa, you can hear her and thus know her location, unless she makes a Stealth check to hide (as an action). Because you know her location, you can attack her, but you have disadvantage on your attack rolls.

[Regitnui]

PHB 194:


TL;DR: Even if you can't see the medusa, you can hear her and thus know her location, unless she makes a Stealth check to hide (as an action). Because you know her location, you can attack her, but you have disadvantage on your attack rolls.

If you're averting your eyes, you're more targeting a square (area) than the Medusa (opponent). So yeah, you can attack, but you can't damage empty air with a sword, hence automatic miss.

[Desamir]

If you're averting your eyes, you're more targeting a square (area) than the Medusa (opponent). So yeah, you can attack, but you can't damage empty air with a sword, hence automatic miss.

Averting your eyes is equivalent to the blinded condition. You have disadvantage on your attack rolls, and attack rolls against you have advantage. You still know the exact location of the medusa, and thus you will never automatically miss unless the medusa is able to take a successful Hide action.

[Malifice]

If you're averting your eyes, you're more targeting a square (area) than the Medusa (opponent). So yeah, you can attack, but you can't damage empty air with a sword, hence automatic miss.

Doesnt matter if you cant see the medusa you can still target it with melee and ranged attacks (at disadvantage). You can hear the hissing of its snakes and the rustling of its robes just fine.

You cant target it with most spells (that require a 'target you can see') or make AoO against it, or indeed any reactions that require you to be able to see the medusa for the trigger (so no parry manouver against the medusa's attacks).

The medusa can attempt the Hide action against an enemy that is committed to looking away from it though. If it succeeds and its foe is too chicken to look up, then it will have to start guessing squares.

[Alejandro]

So what we want to use is a Medusa that can generate a Silence effect :)

[SharkForce]

So what we want to use is a Medusa that can generate a Silence effect :)

or in an environment so loud that everyone counts as deafened.

[Corran]

or in an environment so loud that everyone counts as deafened.
Would an ally of the medusa being a bard playing a....gong count? Just for the additional style...

[MaxWilson]

I wonder how much of the battlefield becomes non-visible to you when you avert your eyes from a Medusa. I think of it like a married man turning his head/averting his eyes from an attractive young lady who isn't his wife--he doesn't want her in his peripheral vision, but he doesn't have to turn his back either. As a DM I'd probably guesstimate that about 90 degrees of your field of view will be blocked.

Thus, a Medusa gives advantage to her allies as well.

[JoeJ]

So what we want to use is a Medusa that can generate a Silence effect :)

You can also avert your eyes downward so that you can only see her feet. That's enough to keep track of her position, but without being able to see the rest of her body you'd still be hampered enough to attack with Disadvantage.

[Safety Sword]

I wonder how much of the battlefield becomes non-visible to you when you avert your eyes from a Medusa. I think of it like a married man turning his head/averting his eyes from an attractive young lady who isn't his wife--he doesn't want her in his peripheral vision, but he doesn't have to turn his back either. As a DM I'd probably guesstimate that about 90 degrees of your field of view will be blocked.

Thus, a Medusa gives advantage to her allies as well.

Your problem with this scenario is that the one giving the stony look is the wife...