Pure Bladesinger vs Pure Eldritch knight [Archive]

EvilAnagram

2015-11-20, 04:28 PM

Eldritch Knight has lower AC, better offensive capabilities, more HP, and worse casting.

Bladesinger has higher AC, worse offensive capabilities, less HP, and better casting.

But let's look a bit closer, Feature by Feature!

We'll assume the BS has 20 DEX, 20 INT.

Color code:
Bad
Not Bad
Good
Very Good
Amazeballs

Bladesinger
Hit Points: As bad as it gets.
Proficiencies: You can get what you need, thanks to Bladesinging.
Spellcasting: Right off the bat, Wizards are awesome. They have full casting and they have tons of spells. Plus, Ritual Casting and a Spellbook. Wizard casting is awesome.
Arcane Recovery: Recovering 10 levels of spells is great.
Bladesong: Boost your AC, increase your speed, gain advantage on Dex saves, and gain a bonus to Concentration saves. Daaaaaamn.
Ability Score Improvements: It's the median.
Extra Attack: A very good ability that you won't get nearly as much use out of as Fighters do.
Song of Defense: That is a very nice ability. It's about as good as the Abjuration ability.
Song of Victory: This actually brings your damage quite close to what a Fighter's is.
Spell Mastery: Shield is free now.
Signature Spells: You are a master mage.

Eldritch Knight
Hit Points: Among the best.
Proficiencies: Totally awesome. You get any weapons or armor, even getting Con saves.
Fighting Style: Great boosts for offense and/or defense. Plus, you get two. But don't get Two Weapon Fighting.
Second Wind: Recover Hit Points as a bonus action.
Action Surge: Oh, yes. This is the perfect nova ability. Or "put together a sweet combo" ability. Having two turns in one is awesome.
Spellcasting: Your casting isn't great, but it's enough to get sweet defensive buffs and offensive cantrips, plus some AoEs. Anything you need to gish.
Blade Bond: Never be without a weapon. Ever.
Extra Attack: Four attacks are better than one.
Ability Score Increase: You get so many of these... oh so many. You get full attack and casting stats, plus decent Con and a couple feats.
War Magic: Cast a cantrip and attack at the same time. Lightning Lure someone, stab them. Booming Blade someone, then stab them. Prestidigitation a giant middle finger at someone, then stab them. And use an Action Surge afterwards. Great stuff.
Indomitable: Reroll 3 saves. Yay. That wasn't a sarcastic yay, I'm just not a very excitable man.
Eldritch Strike: Pretty sweet debuff for your casting.
Arcane Charge: I like teleports. Do you?
Improved War Magic: Very nice. It won't see as much use as War Magic, but it's great.

If you want to lean on your casting more, Bladesinger. If you want to lean on your attacks more, Eldritch Knight.

Of course, it's just about impossible to hit the BS Armor Class, but when you do you get hurt bad. I would probably just spam Fireballs and use War Magic if I were the Eldritch Knight.

Dispelly3

2015-11-20, 04:40 PM

Of course, it's just about impossible to hit the BS Armor Class, but when you do you get hurt bad. I would probably just spam Fireballs and use War Magic if I were the Eldritch Knight.

Bladesinger could just counterspell into oblivion. He would have no choice but to try to hit that Massive AC. Eldritch Knight would run out of Spell slots years before Bladesinger would. Also, if the Bladesinger is a real ****, Blink plus Simulcrum. No chance.

Rajah

2015-11-20, 04:50 PM

How does bladesinger have massive AC? Permanent-shield or something? That's still higher than sword and board eldritch knight?

Dispelly3

2015-11-20, 04:54 PM

How does bladesinger have massive AC? Permanent-shield or something? That's still higher than sword and board eldritch knight?

Regular AC- 17 without magic items (18 with mage armor)

Bladesinging would then bump this up to 22 (+5 from INT)

Shield favored spell would bump this up to 27.

So 27-28 AC without magic items, which is pretty hard to hit through without even counting stuff like Blur, Blink, or Mirror Image.

CNagy

2015-11-20, 05:06 PM

EvilAnagram

2015-11-20, 05:12 PM

Bladesinger could just counterspell into oblivion. He would have no choice but to try to hit that Massive AC. Eldritch Knight would run out of Spell slots years before Bladesinger would. Also, if the Bladesinger is a real ****, Blink plus Simulcrum. No chance.

Ooh! That's a good point!

So you cast a spell, let the BS Counterspell, and follow up with a massive nova of attacks via Action Surge and Improved War Magic! They used up their reaction, so they can't Shield. Or hell, just Action Surge and cast Banishment.

Dispelly3

2015-11-20, 05:15 PM

Ooh! That's a good point!

So you cast a spell, let the BS Counterspell, and follow up with a massive nova of attacks via Action Surge and Improved War Magic! They used up their reaction, so they can't Shield. Or hell, just Action Surge and cast Banishment.

Unless the Simulacrum clone of you was the one to counterspell.

pwykersotz

2015-11-20, 05:18 PM

Unless the Simulacrum clone of you was the one to counterspell.

Bringing up Simulacrum in an argument like this defeats the point of the thought exercise. It's a broken spell, we get it. Maybe try to keep it 1v1.

Dispelly3

2015-11-20, 05:26 PM

Bringing up Simulacrum in an argument like this defeats the point of the thought exercise. It's a broken spell, we get it. Maybe try to keep it 1v1.

If are going to ban something OP that Wizard has, you are going to have to ban a lot of things. Pretty sure a level 20 Eldritch Knight isn't going to have a fun time handling an Ancient Brass Dragon via Polymorph by himself either.

CNagy

2015-11-20, 05:42 PM

If are going to ban something OP that Wizard has, you are going to have to ban a lot of things. Pretty sure a level 20 Eldritch Knight isn't going to have a fun time handling an Ancient Brass Dragon via Polymorph by himself either.

This is basically case in point on how they screwed up the Bladesinger concept in 5e. When you talk about a Bladesinger duel, the two things that don't come to mind are "have your simulacrum fight with/for you" and "polymorph into an ancient dragon". This whole Bladesingers-are-slightly-gish-full-Wizards thing that WotC has going on needs to die in a fire.

EvilAnagram

2015-11-20, 06:20 PM

If are going to ban something OP that Wizard has, you are going to have to ban a lot of things. Pretty sure a level 20 Eldritch Knight isn't going to have a fun time handling an Ancient Brass Dragon via Polymorph by himself either.

Counterspell.

Of course, with the Simulacrum example you're essentially giving the Wizard the ability to have hours of preparation that the Eldritch Knight lacks.

EDIT: Personally, if I were an EK, I'd cast a nasty spell and hope the BS Counterspells it, then attack as bonus action. If it hits, I'd cast Banishment. I figure Disadvantage on a dump stat with no bonuses would work well.

pwykersotz

2015-11-20, 06:31 PM

If are going to ban something OP that Wizard has, you are going to have to ban a lot of things. Pretty sure a level 20 Eldritch Knight isn't going to have a fun time handling an Ancient Brass Dragon via Polymorph by himself either.

Hey, as long as it's 1v1 that's fine by me. I was making a single point, don't extrapolate too far. I never mentioned True Poly.

Dispelly3

2015-11-20, 06:31 PM

Counterspell.

Of course, with the Simulacrum example you're essentially giving the Wizard the ability to have hours of preparation that the Eldritch Knight lacks.

While Counterspell could work, that's a Save DC 19, so definitely not in EK's favor here. Wizard is going to get it off eventually, and chances are he is going to get it off the first time.

Troacctid

2015-11-20, 07:45 PM

They're honestly very different classes. Yes, Bladesinger has a little bit of melee and Eldritch Knight has a little bit of casting, but ultimately, the one is still a Wizard and the other is still a Fighter. Wizards are still not very good at brawling, and Fighters are still not very good at controlling, and if you think either archetype will allow you to play either class as if it were the other, you're probably going to end up playing suboptimally.

Vogonjeltz

2015-11-20, 08:03 PM

Bladesinger would win in every category except maybe survivability, but Bladesinger might even give him a run for his money in that with Perma-Shield and bladesingin. Fighter does have a nice nova, but a level 20 Wizard just has too many broken things. Wish.

If the Bladesinger casts wish to do anything but mimic a lower level spell, his strength drops to 3, he is now taking 1d10 damage per level of any spells he casts, and he has a 1/3 chance of being burned out of further wishes forever.

With 3 he won't even be able to carry his equipment.

Not a great plan.

Bladesinger could just counterspell into oblivion. He would have no choice but to try to hit that Massive AC. Eldritch Knight would run out of Spell slots years before Bladesinger would. Also, if the Bladesinger is a real ****, Blink plus Simulcrum. No chance.

A simulacrum has 1/2 hp, on a wizard that averages to 41+Con mod/2 hp, if we take the assumption that this wizard put all their 5 ASI into int and Dex, then he likely has a con mod no greater than +1 for a total of 51 hp on the naked simulacrum (comes with no gear). It dies in one round of attacks, if it were even allowed to exist in terms of prep time and expense required.

Besides which, why wouldn't the EK just bypass AC by using contests (disarm, grapple, shove) and then simply drowning the Bladesinger, or poison spraying them to death, or casting cantrips that target saves (which the BS has neither proficiency nor a high ability score for...such as poison spray)? The BS could try to counter spell, but then they are wasting their reaction and a 3rd level+ slot on a cantrip, and if they don't counter spell they easily lose the war of attrition having virtually no hp to speak of and suffering 4-48 damage per round (their health max is 102, so we are looking at death within ~3 rounds considering the EK can action surge to attack or cast a cantrip (possibly draws the reaction) and then levels the BS with a lethal spell like hold person (BS also has only a 40% chance of passing a wisdom save)

Corran

2015-11-20, 08:11 PM

If we're talking "more powerful Gish" then it is clearly the Bladesinger. A single-classed Bladesinger has all sorts of break-the-encounter spells and they are built to excel at duels if the contest is meant to be more head-to-head.

Fighting a Eldritch Knight built to kill spellcasters would be a bit of a pain, though. The EK has enough ASIs to get his attack stat and Int up to 20, with room left over for Mage Slayer, Sentinel, and Resilient Wisdom. Plus something else if he is a variant Human. The battle is decided in the first three rounds, as the first round the Eldritch Knight either gets zapped with something awful or gets to take a turn, and uses it to cast Dispel Magic and take a swipe at the Bladesinger with Improved War Magic. He uses his reaction to attempt to counterspell whatever the Bladesinger is casting. In the second round, he attempts to unload with 4 attacks. If one of the attacks hits, he action surges and casts Hold Person, hoping to get the Bladesinger on a failed DC 19 Will save with Disadvantage. If luck shines on him, the Bladesinger fails and the Eldritch Knight takes the rest of his Extra attacks to drive that failure home, punctuating it with a bonus action attack triggered by Improved War Magic. He can try this trick one more time, but if it lands it is decently painful.

It takes 3 rounds to fully deplete the Eldritch Knight's 3rd and 4th level slots. If the Bladesinger isn't nearly dead by then, it'd take sheer luck and/or bad tactics on the Bladesinger's part to give the Knight the win, and it is nowhere near certain even in the best circumstances. At the end of the day, it takes a lot of luck to make up for not having 5th-9th level spells.
I think you meant that if one of the 4 attacks hits during round 2, then at 3rd round he uses hold person (followed up by a bonus attack from improved war magic), and if the BS fails his save against hold person (at disadvantage due to eldritch strike), then he uses action surge for 4 more attacks, so that is a total of 5 attacks landing on the paralysed BS. A good strategy, that wants to profit from the BS lack of hit points.

note: An EK has the same AC as a BS, assuming the EK has a +1 shield (and a +1 armor if the BS has a +1 armor or uses mage armor). Since we are talking about 20 level characters, I think it is safe to assume that the EK will have a better AC than the BS, since he gets the chance to further increase his AC by enchanting his shield.

Troacctid

2015-11-20, 08:25 PM

We're not just talking about level 20 characters, we're also assuming getting there via the full 20-level progression, starting from level 1. Power at level 20 is part of the comparison, but a relatively small part.

Rajah

2015-11-20, 09:33 PM

So the EK does have a chance at defeating a bladesinger in a duel?

Gignere

2015-11-20, 09:35 PM

EvilAnagram

2015-11-20, 09:42 PM

So the EK does have a chance at defeating a bladesinger in a duel?

At different points they have different capabilities. Sometimes the EK has a better chance than a BS, sometimes the BS is on top of the EK, but it always comes down to who's playing them and what spells they've taken.

Corran

2015-11-20, 10:11 PM

Yeah looking at level 20 is incredibly myopic. The bladesinger is not even gishy until like level 18 when he/she can spam cast shield. Before that if you try to Gish you will never make it to 20. I have dropped a level 4 paladin with 22 AC in less than a round. I think a bladesinger with less AC and HP at level 4 and tried to gish would just drop dead.

Whereas an EK is basically a Gish from level 3 onwards.
I really dont think it's the free spam of shield that makes a BS a gish. A good initial AC value along with defensive buffs and a couple castings of shield can do just fine, that is in the AC front. That said, I can understand an argument that would suggest that his few hp dont make him enough of a gish.

Gignere

2015-11-20, 10:57 PM

I really dont think it's the free spam of shield that makes a BS a gish. A good initial AC value along with defensive buffs and a couple castings of shield can do just fine, that is in the AC front. That said, I can understand an argument that would suggest that his few hp dont make him enough of a gish.

I had a player that I allowed to play a Favored Soul, he got a staff of defense and a +1 breastplate. With a shield he was rocking 20 AC, he either spent all the time casting mirror images or was forced to use shield and needed long rests basically after every encounter. He was perfectly analogous to the BS, he is still the only player that died in my game because he wanted to be a gish and ran into melee one too many times. So basically a character that has the AC of an optimized BS all of the buffs and more and can heal, still bit the dust trying to gish. I just don't see how a BS can survive until high levels pretending to be a gish.

BS is best played as a normal wizard staying in the back and maybe go into melee once the party obviously has to upper hand to conserve spells, but why not just spam cantrips. I think what 5E needs is a 1/2 arcane spell caster similar to the paladin/ranger. That class would have made a good BS.

CNagy

2015-11-20, 11:18 PM

I think you meant that if one of the 4 attacks hits during round 2, then at 3rd round he uses hold person (followed up by a bonus attack from improved war magic), and if the BS fails his save against hold person (at disadvantage due to eldritch strike), then he uses action surge for 4 more attacks, so that is a total of 5 attacks landing on the paralysed BS. A good strategy, that wants to profit from the BS lack of hit points.

note: An EK has the same AC as a BS, assuming the EK has a +1 shield (and a +1 armor if the BS has a +1 armor or uses mage armor). Since we are talking about 20 level characters, I think it is safe to assume that the EK will have a better AC than the BS, since he gets the chance to further increase his AC by enchanting his shield.

That would be the most efficient, but every turn you allow the Bladesinger to act is potentially the Eldritch Knight's last round. If I managed to hit on the first attack of a series of 4 (maybe even the 2nd), I would immediately Action Surge, use the other action to cast Hold Person (and hope for luck), then take my remaining 3 attacks and the bonus action attack from Improved War Magic.

I had actually contemplated using a two-handed weapon for damage, but it might be better to use a longsword for the versatile grip. Forgoing a shield means being able to grapple the Bladesinger, and grappling the Bladesinger means that until he escapes and moves away, Mage Slayer will give the Eldritch Knight advantage to saves against his spells and an opportunity to make a reaction attack. The Bladesinger hitting the physical AC of the Eldritch Knight seems like less of a concern than failing a save or suck/die.

I think the most important tactic is that if you can get the Bladesinger to cast Shield, then he doesn't have a reaction left to counterspell. If you can incapacitate the Bladesinger, even momentarily, the Bladesong is over (though he can restart it once.) Tasha's Hideous Laughter is the cheapest source of incapacitation I can think of. Hold Person is the one you want to catch him with.

MaxWilson

2015-11-21, 02:00 AM

So the EK does have a chance at defeating a bladesinger in a duel?

Sure. He just has to win initiative and do his thing before bladesong comes online.

For example, if the EK has Great Weapon Mastery and the Alert and Lucky feats, he has a pretty good chance (at least 75% even if he has only Dex 10) of winning initiative. Then he can cast Magic Weapon IV with his bonus action to improve his weapon to +2. He action surges and attacks eight times, and he dedicates the first two attacks (if necessary) to trying to knock the Bladesinger prone. If he's got +11 to Athletics and the Bladesinger has +11 to Acrobatics, then two attacks have a 75% chance of knocking the Bladesinger prone. Then with his other six attacks, he GWM power attacks vs. the Bladesinger's AC 18 (Dex 20 + Mage Armor; if he tries to Shield, Counterspell). Six attacks at +8 against AC 18 with advantage should hit 4.79 times, for a base damage of 2d6+15. Counting crit damage, he'll do 109.37 damage on average that turn.* Lucky could be used to win initiative, to win the first prone attempt (granting seven attacks instead of six, for 127.59 damage), or to turn a miss into a hit (add another 22 damage).

That all adds up to a pretty fair chance of the fighter winning on round 1, due to Action Surge and his bonus feats. If he doesn't win on round one, then on round two he can action surge again, possibly combined with a Dispel Magic first to bring down the Bladesinger's AC, depending what the Bladesinger did on round 1.

I like archer EKs a lot better than melee ones, but the archer's scenario is harder to analyze because range is a big factor. The key tactics are 1.) exploit the range advantage of longbows over spells (4x or more, unless Meteor Swarm is in play), 2.) run out the clock on defensive spells and bladesong, 3.) plink away for consistent damage, about 19 damage per round using Magic Weapon IV and without action surging. Use your high Dex to Hide if necessary while Bladesong/Blink/etc. wear off. The Bladesinger probably doesn't have a very high Perception. Anyway, the archer EK can't use the same nova strategy as a melee EK due to lower Str and a harder time gaining advantage, although Blindness/Deafness actually works pretty well due to the Bladesinger's weak Con saves.

-Max

* I'm neglecting Great Weapon Fighting because 1.) it's a pain to calculate, and 2.) I don't like it as much as Defense.

Vogonjeltz

2015-11-21, 02:14 PM

cobaltstarfire

2015-11-21, 03:31 PM

War Magic: Cast a cantrip and attack at the same time. Lightning Lure someone, stab them. Booming Blade someone, then stab them. Prestidigitation a giant middle finger at someone, then stab them. And use an Action Surge afterwards. Great stuff.

I have nothing to add, just wanted to express how amused I was by this bit. :smallbiggrin:

andhaira

2015-11-21, 08:01 PM

Bladesingers must be elves though, keep that in mind. At the lower levels that free feat at level 1 from variant humans can give the EK an edge.

Mato

2015-11-22, 01:17 PM

So judging from this thread and my own knowledge, the eldritch knight wins.

Basically the question is which is a better gish, the guy with more hp, better weapons, more attacks, all the ASIs he needs to support his combat/casting/survivability, or the guy that has decent AC and makes a great spellcaster.

And the posts followed that trend exactly. Some people try to make a point that in a world of unlimited time and resources the bladesinger's ritual casting, simulacrums, and wish allows a full-caster to dominate theoretically any challenge includes out stabing people. Others remind them that casting is only half the measurement. And a few of the wise ones ask or explain that the EK favorably tips to the mundane side of the scale and the BS favorably tips to the caster side. There just isn't an 'all' option yet and both sides strongly pull their weight in their respective areas.

And so there is where my own judgement comes in. If I'm playing a gish I want options outside of by highest spell slots, to me it's the entire reason to even playing a gish. As great of a caster as the bladesinger is, it handles very differently from the character's morning to lunch break as 5th's extremely limited slots are quickly ate up over the very much intended prolongation of combat. The EK delivers exceptional combat ability with enough options in his spellcasting to play the role of solving other problems with his slots. Like when you start discounting the days to claim what a caster can or cannot do, the EK can call him self Steve the Fullmetal Minealchemist by using fabricate and you know what? I'm perfectly fine with that. Specially when you don't even need to spend a single slot to perform better in combat than most other classes.

spartan_ah

2015-11-23, 09:09 AM

a more interesting question... blade lock, valor bard and blade singer walk into a bar..... outside a bar, to a duel. who wins?

Gwendol

2015-11-23, 10:50 AM

Daehron

2015-11-23, 10:55 AM

EvilAnagram

2015-11-23, 11:03 AM

Bladesinger wins.

Round 1 -- Phantasmal Force -- image of himself meleeing the the EK.

EK spends the rest of the fight battling an illusion while the BS peels off his HP every round.

Should the EK by some freak of luck beat the spell save DC, Bladesinger re-casts it.

EK gets at best 3-4 swings in on the BS. BS sucks up the damage with his abilities, if the EK hits his 27-28 AC.

BS walks out with a couple bruises.

EK bleeds out.

This is, by far, the worst strategy proposed. Intelligence is a secondary attribute for EKs, and aside from that they have Indomitable. Even if the EK fails the save, the illusion does not disguise the actual location of the BS.

Daehron

2015-11-23, 12:35 PM

This is, by far, the worst strategy proposed. Intelligence is a secondary attribute for EKs, and aside from that they have Indomitable. Even if the EK fails the save, the illusion does not disguise the actual location of the BS.

Bit of a ramble, but here are some thoughts. By raw numbers, it's a toss up. But good tactics on either side will make the difference.

The BS needs to deny the EK chances to swing / hit, while peeling away any uses of Indomitable. By level 3, the BS has that means available - Misty Step plus 40' movement can put them 70' away from the EK and still grant an action (Ray of Frost perhaps to slow the EK).

If the EK is denied opportunities to hit, it is dead. The EK cannot compete as a caster against a wizard.

If the BS is denied opportunities to avoid being hit, it is dead. The BS cannot compete as a fighter against the EK.

I still like spamming PF, it's been useful for me in the past. Maybe it's a 'conjured' python that is grappling / pinning the fighter, once it lands. It's an illusion - there are many possibilities. But if the EK is denied swings - the EK is dead. And there are so many ways to deny the EK a chance to get a hit in.

Fyndhal

2015-11-23, 02:31 PM

At high levels, the Bladesinger can win simply using Foresight, counter-spell and burning slots to absorb damage. The EK has Disadvantage to attack and the BS has Advantage on everything.

At lower levels, it's a much more interesting discussion and I think that a smartly played EK could probably win in the mid levels. At low levels, the EK would have to be unlucky with die rolls to lose.

EvilAnagram

2015-11-23, 03:05 PM

So the EK just stands around while the BS takes ten rounds to cast Foresight? That's an interesting concept of a duel you have there.

Rajah

2015-11-23, 03:52 PM

EvilAnagram

2015-11-23, 04:01 PM

Why would the BS have advantage?

Foresight, which takes a minute to cast, would give him advantage and impose disadvantage on anyone attacking him.

Fyndhal

2015-11-23, 04:29 PM

So the EK just stands around while the BS takes ten rounds to cast Foresight? That's an interesting concept of a duel you have there.

Like Mage Armor, Foresight is something you cast early in the day and leave on. If the assumption is "two naked guys start and have to get prepared then fight" it might take the EK just as long to get into his armor. I was thinking "reasonable wandering encounter."

JoeJ

2015-11-23, 04:51 PM

Like Mage Armor, Foresight is something you cast early in the day and leave on. If the assumption is "two naked guys start and have to get prepared then fight" it might take the EK just as long to get into his armor. I was thinking "reasonable wandering encounter."

If it's a wandering encounter, why are they fighting at all? If one of them a psycho killer who immediately tries to kill anybody they meet?

Forum Explorer

2015-11-23, 07:15 PM

Bladesinger would win a duel, but only because nearly every Wizard subclass wins a duel with any Fighter subclass.

Or in other words, the bladesinger can't out fight the fighter, it depends on it's spells to win the duel like any other wizard.

In general gameplay I imagine the same still mostly holds true. The bladesinger will likely just use spells, and maybe will use autoattacks instead of cantrips. Maybe.

So a better comparison is the Bladesinger to other wizards.

tieren

2015-11-23, 07:26 PM

EvilAnagram

2015-11-23, 07:54 PM

Like Mage Armor, Foresight is something you cast early in the day and leave on. If the assumption is "two naked guys start and have to get prepared then fight" it might take the EK just as long to get into his armor. I was thinking "reasonable wandering encounter."

I was assuming a prearranged duel, any preparation limited to preparing equipment. Assuming they cast buffs beforehand seem extremely unfair. Prior preparation on either side outside equipping your standard gear undermines the purpose in my view.

GraakosGraakos

2015-11-23, 11:41 PM

Assuming it's level 20 (how often do you actually play a game to 20? Really, how many groups take their characters all the way to 20? Or start at 20? Like a 'we're basically the Olympian gods lets have an adventure' style 20 one shot) the EK can deal more at will damage, but the Bladesinger can just whomp him with spells and burn spell slots and flight and reaction teleports and imposing disadvantage and making him think his feet are trying to eat him and turning rocks into subsonic surface to AC missles and blah blah blah.

Both have lots to offer for reasonable levels of play though. I think the most fun version of either of these characters is the EK12/BS8 multiclass, or the EK8/BS12 multiclass. Or, more realistically in play, the EK4/BS6-10, or EK6-8/BS6-8. Lots of slots, tons of fun utility, lots of damage absorption, cool flavor.

Vogonjeltz

2015-11-24, 12:22 AM

a more interesting question... blade lock, valor bard and blade singer walk into a bar..... outside a bar, to a duel. who wins?

Are they dueling each other Good/Bad/Ugly-style or some other group?

It just calls to mind the great picture of a bar-room brawl on 126 of the PHB, love that scene.

Forum Explorer

2015-11-24, 02:27 AM

EK -> Casts Dispel Magic on BS> Action Surge > chop chop chop

It's a good move, and it's not like an EK can't win a fight against a Bladesinger (or a level 20 wizard for that matter), just that the Bladesinger has many more tools for the job that are almost guaranteed success. (Like casting Forcecage with bars, then throwing a cloud kill(s) into the box for unavoidable damage.)

But honestly, I'd say something like a Abjurer would be even better. Or a Necromancer with his gang.

spartan_ah

2015-11-24, 05:56 AM

Are they dueling each other Good/Bad/Ugly-style or some other group?

It just calls to mind the great picture of a bar-room brawl on 126 of the PHB, love that scene.

let's say each one has a duel with a BS. I think the bladelock is out of the game, but a valor bard will give him a run for his money

Rajah

2015-11-24, 08:13 AM

Why is the Bladelock not competitive?

tieren

2015-11-24, 08:46 AM

It's a good move, and it's not like an EK can't win a fight against a Bladesinger (or a level 20 wizard for that matter), just that the Bladesinger has many more tools for the job that are almost guaranteed success. (Like casting Forcecage with bars, then throwing a cloud kill(s) into the box for unavoidable damage.)

But honestly, I'd say something like a Abjurer would be even better. Or a Necromancer with his gang.

EK -> casts dispel magic > Action surge > chop chop chop
BS -> moves away from EK (so they're not both in the cage) > [EK AoO] > casts force cage
EK -> arcane charge > action surge #2 > chop chop chop > [regular action] chop chop chop

MaxWilson

2015-11-24, 09:49 AM

EK -> Casts Dispel Magic on BS> Action Surge > chop chop chop

This is one of the rare scenarios where it might pay for the Bladesinger to cast Mage Armor/Shield as a fourth or fifth-level spell. EKs tend to be relatively bad at dispelling/counterspelling high-level spells.

Forum Explorer

2015-11-24, 03:06 PM

EK -> casts dispel magic > Action surge > chop chop chop
BS -> moves away from EK (so they're not both in the cage) > [EK AoO] > casts force cage
EK -> arcane charge > action surge #2 > chop chop chop > [regular action] chop chop chop

First turn okay.

the Wizard doesn't need to move away, the bars can appear between the EK and the Wizard, so no AoO

To teleport out of a forcecage you have to make a charisma saving throw, likely the worst save that the EK has. It can be done of course, but it's certainly not a guaranteed success, and failure uses up your Action Surge, so that's really costly.

tieren

2015-11-24, 03:22 PM

To teleport out of a forcecage you have to make a charisma saving throw, likely the worst save that the EK has. It can be done of course, but it's certainly not a guaranteed success, and failure uses up your Action Surge, so that's really costly.

EK can use indomitable to get two chances at the saving throw, effectively giving him advantage on the check.

And thats also assuming he didn't use one of his many extra ASi's to take the mage slayer feat and just disrupt the casting with another chop.

Fyndhal

2015-11-24, 03:23 PM

EK -> casts dispel magic > Action surge > chop chop chop
BS -> moves away from EK (so they're not both in the cage) > [EK AoO] > casts force cage
EK -> arcane charge > action surge #2 > chop chop chop > [regular action] chop chop chop

EK -> Casts Dispel Magic BS -> Casts Counterspell (Reaction)

As to not starting with long duration buffs, that's handing a distinct advantage to the EK, since you are not discounting the time it takes them to equip their armor. It's extremely difficult to get an apples to apples comparison with a class that has mostly innate effects to one that is mostly defined by preparation.

tieren

2015-11-24, 03:28 PM

EK -> Casts Dispel Magic BS -> Casts Counterspell (Reaction)

Counterspelling the dispel to keep Mage Armor burns the reaction and prevents casting shield, either way EK is hacking away against a lower AC.

Forum Explorer

2015-11-24, 04:04 PM

EK can use indomitable to get two chances at the saving throw, effectively giving him advantage on the check.

And thats also assuming he didn't use one of his many extra ASi's to take the mage slayer feat and just disrupt the casting with another chop.

Sure, but that's even more resources used up, and the EK still needs to make a 19. If he has no bonus to his charisma, or even a +1, that's still going to be a very difficult roll to make. More often then not, he'll be stuck in the forcecage.

Mage Slayer won't disrupt the casting of Forcecage since it doesn't take Concentration. It just means he gets the AoO no matter what.

tieren

2015-11-24, 04:40 PM

Sure, but that's even more resources used up, and the EK still needs to make a 19. If he has no bonus to his charisma, or even a +1, that's still going to be a very difficult roll to make. More often then not, he'll be stuck in the forcecage.

Mage Slayer won't disrupt the casting of Forcecage since it doesn't take Concentration. It just means he gets the AoO no matter what.

I hear you, we don't need to play out all the permutations [EK casts Leomunds Tiny Hut to wait out forcecage duration].

And I get the EK is buring through precious long rest resources at a quick rate, but I think that would be his style, hit hard and fast with everything he can, the longer the encounter last the more likely the BS will be to get the advantage with his superior spell power.

The Ek's best edge is wizards don't like getting hit with stuff. BS has some ways to avoid that, but perhaps the EK is one of the best counter melee opponents to deal with those ways (multiple attacks to get through AC, ability to dispel, eldritch strike forcing disadvantage on saves, etc...).

pwykersotz

2015-11-24, 06:33 PM

Are we counting Forcecage as a win? It doesn't actually defeat anything by itself. It just delays the encounter by the duration.

Desamir

2015-11-24, 06:39 PM

I hear you, we don't need to play out all the permutations [EK casts Leomunds Tiny Hut to wait out forcecage duration].

Leomund's Tiny Hut takes 1 minute to cast btw.

Seems like the Bladesinger could just cast True Polymorph and turn himself into an Ancient Brass Dragon. If the EK tries to counterspell, the Bladesinger can counter-counterspell.

MaxWilson

2015-11-24, 08:56 PM

Leomund's Tiny Hut takes 1 minute to cast btw.

Seems like the Bladesinger could just cast True Polymorph and turn himself into an Ancient Brass Dragon. If the EK tries to counterspell, the Bladesinger can counter-counterspell.

In which case, why bother being a Bladesinger at all? You could have been a Necromancer instead, to be an Ancient Brass Dragon with 500 bajillion skeleton minions.

Forum Explorer

2015-11-24, 11:37 PM

I hear you, we don't need to play out all the permutations [EK casts Leomunds Tiny Hut to wait out forcecage duration].

And I get the EK is buring through precious long rest resources at a quick rate, but I think that would be his style, hit hard and fast with everything he can, the longer the encounter last the more likely the BS will be to get the advantage with his superior spell power.

The Ek's best edge is wizards don't like getting hit with stuff. BS has some ways to avoid that, but perhaps the EK is one of the best counter melee opponents to deal with those ways (multiple attacks to get through AC, ability to dispel, eldritch strike forcing disadvantage on saves, etc...).

I actually think a different Wizard would do better against an EK. Sure they'll be hit more often, but they'll have more HP to actually be able to take a hit.

Are we counting Forcecage as a win? It doesn't actually defeat anything by itself. It just delays the encounter by the duration.

It's cause you can cast cloudkill into it. And that'll deal something like 300d8 points of damage. Alright, likely closer to half of that, but that's still plenty.

Desamir

2015-11-24, 11:49 PM

In which case, why bother being a Bladesinger at all? You could have been a Necromancer instead, to be an Ancient Brass Dragon with 500 bajillion skeleton minions.

Because after you burn your level 9 slot to kill the EK, you have the option to fight in melee the rest of the day.

That's why Bladesingers are cool--you have something useful to do without burning spell slots, while still having the option to be a fully-functional wizard.

Forum Explorer

2015-11-24, 11:54 PM

Because after you burn your level 9 slot to kill the EK, you have the option to fight in melee the rest of the day.

That's why Bladesingers are cool--you have something useful to do without burning spell slots, while still having the option to be a fully-functional wizard.

Other wizards call those cantrips :smalltongue:

Vogonjeltz

2015-11-25, 03:04 PM

It's cause you can cast cloudkill into it. And that'll deal something like 300d8 points of damage. Alright, likely closer to half of that, but that's still plenty.

Forcecage would have to be the bars version to cast into the space, and cloudkill drifts, which means it would deal 5d8 save for half. We're looking at an average of 10 damage for a 5th level spell slot.

Desamir

2015-11-25, 05:03 PM

Other wizards call those cantrips :smalltongue:

Compare 4d10 (avg 22) to 2d8+20 (avg 29), along with +5 AC and advantage on concentration checks. A Bladesinger is just plain better at at-will combat than other arcane traditions.

Forum Explorer

2015-11-25, 05:22 PM

Forcecage would have to be the bars version to cast into the space, and cloudkill drifts, which means it would deal 5d8 save for half. We're looking at an average of 10 damage for a 5th level spell slot.

There's no reason to not use the bars version in this scenario. As for Cloudkill, it's questionable, but the spell is worded that the fog always moves away from the caster. So a caster could run around the box and keep it inside.

Compare 4d10 (avg 22) to 2d8+20 (avg 29), along with +5 AC and advantage on concentration checks. A Bladesinger is just plain better at at-will combat than other arcane traditions.

Sure, and it deserves to be. But it's not a big difference, and I much prefer the other stuff the other arcane traditions gets.

Malifice

2015-11-25, 08:57 PM

I mean if you are asking like, if the Bladesinger and Eldritch Knight were to have a duel? Bladesinger would win hands down.

I highly doubt its that black and white. Initiative will be important (you need to get your bladesong up and running or youre still... well just a wizard standing next to a Figther with 8+ attacks) and even then an AC of 28 (assuming mage armor, shield, bladesong and int + dex 20) isnt out of the realms of what a 20th level Fighter can hit (+11) asuming he wanted to launch melee or ranged attacks (considering he could use his first attack to almost guarantee knock you prone with shove + athletics +11) 7 attacks at advantage.

Personally if I was the EK, I would attack (forcing the wizard to use his reaction on shield), then shove him on his backside, hit him a few more times, and then action surge a spell on him that he cant counter or mitigate as he's already spent his reaction (ottilukes resistent sphere works - keep him in the sphere for 1 minute until his bladesong ends).

Its not exactly a 'hands down' victory there. Also; the later in the AD the fight happens, the greater the odds of an EK victory.

But to the OP's question, they play very differently. One is a blaster who can help out in close combat in a pinch (his at will cantrip damage is melee orientated and he has the tools to enter melee and survive) the other is a melee tank who has the tools to blast in a pinch.

Gignere

2015-11-27, 12:47 PM

I highly doubt its that black and white. Initiative will be important (you need to get your bladesong up and running or youre still... well just a wizard standing next to a Figther with 8+ attacks) and even then an AC of 28 (assuming mage armor, shield, bladesong and int + dex 20) isnt out of the realms of what a 20th level Fighter can hit (+11) asuming he wanted to launch melee or ranged attacks (considering he could use his first attack to almost guarantee knock you prone with shove + athletics +11) 7 attacks at advantage.

Personally if I was the EK, I would attack (forcing the wizard to use his reaction on shield), then shove him on his backside, hit him a few more times, and then action surge a spell on him that he cant counter or mitigate as he's already spent his reaction (ottilukes resistent sphere works - keep him in the sphere for 1 minute until his bladesong ends).

Its not exactly a 'hands down' victory there. Also; the later in the AD the fight happens, the greater the odds of an EK victory.

But to the OP's question, they play very differently. One is a blaster who can help out in close combat in a pinch (his at will cantrip damage is melee orientated and he has the tools to enter melee and survive) the other is a melee tank who has the tools to blast in a pinch.

I agree initiative will have a huge impact on who wins between an EK and BS. EK should have an edge on initiative due to having the room for the alert feat. However, the EK's actions will not absolutely lock down a BS without some fairly lucky rolls (high to hit and high damage rolls on attacks) even if the EK shoves the BS prone.

If BS wins initiative, he can just plane shift the EK to a plane that is basically inhabitable and instantly kill the EK. EK has no proficiency in Charisma saves and charisma is a likely dump stat. So I will give the edge in this duel to BS, but not because of any BS features. It is all due to the awesome wizard spell list.

EvilAnagram

2015-11-27, 03:15 PM

I agree initiative will have a huge impact on who wins between an EK and BS. EK should have an edge on initiative due to having the room for the alert feat. However, the EK's actions will not absolutely lock down a BS without some fairly lucky rolls (high to hit and high damage rolls on attacks) even if the EK shoves the BS prone.

If BS wins initiative, he can just plane shift the EK to a plane that is basically inhabitable and instantly kill the EK. EK has no proficiency in Charisma saves and charisma is a likely dump stat. So I will give the edge in this duel to BS, but not because of any BS features. It is all due to the awesome wizard spell list.

Any one spell isn't going to stomp an EK thanks to Indomitable. Just like the EK has to anticipate a Counterspell or Shield, the BS has to anticipate Indomitable.

Gignere

2015-11-27, 03:20 PM

Any one spell isn't going to stomp an EK thanks to Indomitable. Just like the EK has to anticipate a Counterspell or Shield, the BS has to anticipate Indomitable.

Even with Indomitable an EK is not likely to make a DC 19 charisma save even with 3 rerolls, needs a 20 to succeed because charisma is a likely dump stat for an EK. This means EK only has 15% chance of making the roll.

EvilAnagram

2015-11-27, 03:41 PM

Even with Indomitable an EK is not likely to make a DC 19 charisma save even with 3 rerolls, needs a 20 to succeed because charisma is a likely dump stat for an EK. This means EK only has 15% chance of making the roll.

If they have an 8 in CHA, it's a 15% chance. If it's a 10 in CHA, it's a 27% chance. If they went with 12 CHA (which is the highest you could reasonably expect), it's a 49% chance. That's not as guaranteed a loss as I'm comfortable with.

Gignere

2015-11-27, 03:57 PM

If they have an 8 in CHA, it's a 15% chance. If it's a 10 in CHA, it's a 27% chance. If they went with 12 CHA (which is the highest you could reasonably expect), it's a 49% chance. That's not as guaranteed a loss as I'm comfortable with.

I can see 10, 12 is not reasonable unless it is rolled. I didn't say guaranteed I just say I think the BS has the edge.

Forum Explorer

2015-11-27, 04:04 PM

I can see 10, 12 is not reasonable unless it is rolled. I didn't say guaranteed I just say I think the BS has the edge.

It depends on the build, and if they are building for the sole purpose of taking on a Bladesinger (or any wizard really). Against a wizard, you likely want a high dex, and ranged attacks so you max DEX. You want a high Int for spells. You don't really need all that high of a strength, wisdom or charisma, so you split them, and dump none of them.

Though if you are building specifically to fight Wizards, go gnome and get magic resistance. :smalltongue:

Gignere

2015-11-27, 04:13 PM

It depends on the build, and if they are building for the sole purpose of taking on a Bladesinger (or any wizard really). Against a wizard, you likely want a high dex, and ranged attacks so you max DEX. You want a high Int for spells. You don't really need all that high of a strength, wisdom or charisma, so you split them, and dump none of them.

Though if you are building specifically to fight Wizards, go gnome and get magic resistance. :smalltongue:

The EK still needs Con I mean what kind of ridiculous point buy are we talking about. I always assume standard array when talking about a forum duel. At most a 27 point buy.

Forum Explorer

2015-11-27, 04:18 PM

The EK still needs Con I mean what kind of ridiculous point buy are we talking about. I always assume standard array when talking about a forum duel. At most a 27 point buy.

Oh, I'm talking about 27 point buy as well. It's something like taking 16, 16, 14, 10, 10, 10 or something like that, I'm away from book, so I can't see how things work out exactly.

Malifice

2015-11-27, 11:45 PM

Even with Indomitable an EK is not likely to make a DC 19 charisma save even with 3 rerolls, needs a 20 to succeed because charisma is a likely dump stat for an EK. This means EK only has 15% chance of making the roll.

The EK also has counterspell. Its a 3rd level abjuration spell.

And he only needs to land one attack to force disadvantage on the action surged spell he casts (again Otilukes resistant sphere is funny).

Gignere

2015-11-28, 12:27 AM

The EK also has counterspell. Its a 3rd level abjuration spell.

And he only needs to land one attack to force disadvantage on the action surged spell he casts (again Otilukes resistant sphere is funny).

The BS also has counterspell. At level 3 you will need to roll to see if you can counterspell the planeshift and the BS can counterspell the EK's counter spell. Even if otiluke's land it isn't like the BS doesn't have either dispel magic or disintegrate to get rid of it. Like I said I think the BS has edge, but the EK does put up a better fight than a warlock.

PoeticDwarf

2015-11-28, 02:06 AM

I figured the martial wizard would win a duel, I meant who is going to be more effective at pure combat. DPR, survivability, combat utility, etc.

Without using spells as wish and true polymorph. The knight is gonna take the bladesinger out with ease.

With most spells, Im not sure who wins, a knight also has fire shield.

If you may use all spells, wizard wins.

Vogonjeltz

2015-11-28, 08:26 AM

The BS also has counterspell. At level 3 you will need to roll to see if you can counterspell the planeshift and the BS can counterspell the EK's counter spell. Even if otiluke's land it isn't like the BS doesn't have either dispel magic or disintegrate to get rid of it. Like I said I think the BS has edge, but the EK does put up a better fight than a warlock.

The Bladesinger presumably has used their reaction to cast shield, if not the EK can just roflstomp their face in with melee attacks, no magic necessary.

EvilAnagram

2015-11-28, 09:32 AM

The EK still needs Con I mean what kind of ridiculous point buy are we talking about. I always assume standard array when talking about a forum duel. At most a 27 point buy.

I mean, with the standard array, you have a 12, 10, 8 to spread between Cha, Wis, and Str, assuming a Dex build. If you're building specifically to fight a BS, rather than to have a character, you'd probably go with Wis, but a 12 Cha is perfectly reasonable.

A human variant can easily start out with a 16, 14, 14, 10, 10, 10 spread out in any way.

A mountain dwarf can start with a 16, 10, 16, 14, 10, 10

High elf can go 8, 16, 14, 16 10, 10

Gnome can do 8, 16, 14, 16, 10, 10

Gignere

2015-11-28, 10:50 AM

I mean, with the standard array, you have a 12, 10, 8 to spread between Cha, Wis, and Str, assuming a Dex build. If you're building specifically to fight a BS, rather than to have a character, you'd probably go with Wis, but a 12 Cha is perfectly reasonable.

A human variant can easily start out with a 16, 14, 14, 10, 10, 10 spread out in any way.

A mountain dwarf can start with a 16, 10, 16, 14, 10, 10

High elf can go 8, 16, 14, 16 10, 10

Gnome can do 8, 16, 14, 16, 10, 10

The wizard have a disable that targets every ability. So that is why I said 10 cha is possible, but not 12.

Forum Explorer

2015-11-28, 01:36 PM

Well 7 ASI's, so let's see,

2 for Feats, which feats can vary

2 for DEX and Int/Con to 20 (depending on race)

3 For Con/Int to 20

So yeah no free ASI's to get boost Cha or Wis to 20. So that's unfortunate. Though if you go with Lucky for a feat, and go gnome, that gives you advantage on those saving throws that target your weak score, and some extra dice to throw at it if need be. They'll be needing a 19 or 20, but their odds aren't as horrible as you were talking about before.

MaxWilson

2015-11-28, 11:13 PM

The wizard have a disable that targets every ability. So that is why I said 10 cha is possible, but not 12.

What wizard disabled targets Strength? What besides Feeblemind (not a full disable) and Symbol (casting time too long) targets Int? Are you thinking of a Phantasmal Force of an iron maiden or something? That seems like an abuse, unlikely to fly with most DMs.

Gignere

2015-11-28, 11:38 PM

What wizard disabled targets Strength? What besides Feeblemind (not a full disable) and Symbol (casting time too long) targets Int? Are you thinking of a Phantasmal Force of an iron maiden or something? That seems like an abuse, unlikely to fly with most DMs.

Grapple with Bigby's. There isn't that many int saves to begin with, so yes Phantasmal Force or Feeblemind, maze is another one that targets int but that is not a full disable and worse than feeblemind. Although feeblemind only disables spell casting but against an EK if you shut down their casting you pretty much have it in the bag. I mean sure they can try and melee you but they only have 1 round to knock the BS unconscious, and with a 1 charisma Plane Shift even with indomitable is a guaranteed win. Anyway I wouldn't target an EK's int or strength. It is really wisdom or charisma.

Vogonjeltz

2015-12-01, 12:39 AM

There's no reason to not use the bars version in this scenario. As for Cloudkill, it's questionable, but the spell is worded that the fog always moves away from the caster. So a caster could run around the box and keep it inside.

I agree, that is questionable. The spell also dictates that the fog moves downhill. So what happens if you cast the spell in a tunnel on an incline? Does it move uphill (and away from you) or downhill (and toward you).

I'd be inclined (eh eh?) to say if there's a downward direction that is going away from you, it goes that way, but if the only way for it to go downhill leads to the casters's face...it goes there.

I'd also rule that the movement only works that way to determine the direction after the initial casting, and that it can't be redirected by moving around the cloud.

Malifice

2015-12-01, 02:39 AM

I agree, that is questionable. The spell also dictates that the fog moves downhill. So what happens if you cast the spell in a tunnel on an incline? Does it move uphill (and away from you) or downhill (and toward you).

I'd be inclined (eh eh?) to say if there's a downward direction that is going away from you, it goes that way, but if the only way for it to go downhill leads to the casters's face...it goes there.

I'd also rule that the movement only works that way to determine the direction after the initial casting, and that it can't be redirected by moving around the cloud.

Seeing as we're using the barred cage, the EK could simply polymorph himself into a bee, fly out of the bars, drop concentration (no action required) and then (if he wanted to) action surge to take another action (Banishment is a 4th level abjuration spell that calls for a Charisma saving throw or be banished to a demiplane for 1 minute and be incapacitated [ending the bladesong]).

Gignere

2015-12-01, 06:47 AM

Seeing as we're using the barred cage, the EK could simply polymorph himself into a bee, fly out of the bars, drop concentration (no action required) and then (if he wanted to) action surge to take another action (Banishment is a 4th level abjuration spell that calls for a Charisma saving throw or be banished to a demiplane for 1 minute and be incapacitated [ending the bladesong]).

Why can't the wizard just counterspell the banishment? Anyway your combo doesn't work since polymorph and banishment are both level 4 spells EK only has 1 level 4 slot.

Gwendol

2015-12-01, 07:25 AM

The EK can teleport out of the cage (or box) using Arcane Charge if he passes the CHA saving throw.

Malifice

2015-12-01, 09:07 AM

Why can't the wizard just counterspell the banishment? Anyway your combo doesn't work since polymorph and banishment are both level 4 spells EK only has 1 level 4 slot.

He could have both. He wins initiative (likely as he has the Alert feat) and he full attacks goading the BS into shield as a reaction with (attack, attack, disarm of focus, disarm of spell components) then hits the BS with otilukes sphere via action surge (Dex save - at disadvantage if one of the attacks hit).

He has a counterspell ready to negate anything the BS throws at him on reappearing. The main point is to negate BS dance number 1. He also snaps the Wizards focus and scatters his spell conponents to the four winds, or simply pockets them while the wizard is in the sphere.

I would be pretty keen on using the second action surge as soon as the BS appears and enters BS dance again. Use counterspell to negate anything he casts at you, and on your turn use action surge again. Use the first action to repeat your full attack on him. The BS is hopefully stupid enough to use shield again. Assuming he does, you then use your second action to hit him with a banishment that he can't counter (he's out of reactions). Cha save at disadvantage isn't pretty for a wizard.

That keeps him busy for another minute and blows his second and last bladesong. Cast mirror image while you wait for him to pop back into existence.

You've now got just the one counter spell left (1 x 3rd and 0 x 4th level slots) though. The BS has wasted the one spell you countered (probably force cage) and both blade dances.

If you lose initiative you just polymorph into a bee (or casts gaseous form) or teleport out of any force cage using your class feature to do so, turning into a bee (or a cloud of mist) if it fails.

I'd be pretty keen on taking alert, resilient wisdom, mage slayer and lucky, then using his other 4 ASI to pump Str and then Int.

Dalebert

2015-12-01, 09:22 AM

Get on Roll20 and let's see this fight! :cool:

Of course any evidence from it would have to be considered highly anecdotal and unscientific.

Desamir

2015-12-01, 11:45 AM

He could have both. He wins initiative (likely as he has the Alert feat) and he full attacks goading the BS into shield as a reaction with (attack, attack, disarm of focus, disarm of spell components) then hits the BS with otilukes sphere via action surge (Dex save - at disadvantage if one of the attacks hit).

You can't disarm a component pouch, it's not a held item.
If the EK won initiative, the wizard hasn't even expended his bladesong yet.
The wizard can Dispel the sphere; not that he'd want to. The EK just gave him one free minute to pick and choose his buff spells.

He has a counterspell ready to negate anything the BS throws at him on reappearing. The main point is to negate BS dance number 1. He also snaps the Wizards focus and scatters his spell conponents to the four winds, or simply pockets them while the wizard is in the sphere.

The EK has to roll a DC 14-DC19 Intelligence check to counterspell anything level 4+.
The wizard can counterspell the EK's counterspell without having to make a check.

I would be pretty keen on using the second action surge as soon as the BS appears and enters BS dance again. Use counterspell to negate anything he casts at you, and on your turn use action surge again. Use the first action to repeat your full attack on him. The BS is hopefully stupid enough to use shield again. Assuming he does, you then use your second action to hit him with a banishment that he can't counter (he's out of reactions). Cha save at disadvantage isn't pretty for a wizard.

The EK can't cast Banishment, he already spent his one 4th-level slot on Otiluke's Sphere (not the best idea).
The wizard wins all counterspell wars.

If you give the wizard one turn, he will True Polymorph into an Ancient White Dragon and win. Counterspells get beaten by Counterspells, Dispel Magic gets beaten by burrowing and high DC checks, and concentration checks get beaten by Resilient (Con) and a +3 modifier.

Malifice

2015-12-01, 12:08 PM

You can't disarm a component pouch, it's not a held item.
If the EK won initiative, the wizard hasn't even expended his bladesong yet.
The wizard can Dispel the sphere; not that he'd want to. The EK just gave him one free minute to pick and choose his buff spells.

The EK has to roll a DC 14-DC19 Intelligence check to counterspell anything level 4+.
The wizard can counterspell the EK's counterspell without having to make a check.

The EK can't cast Banishment, he already spent his one 4th-level slot on Otiluke's Sphere (not the best idea).
The wizard wins all counterspell wars.

If you give the wizard one turn, he will True Polymorph into an Ancient White Dragon and win. Counterspells get beaten by Counterspells, Dispel Magic gets beaten by burrowing and high DC checks, and concentration checks get beaten by Resilient (Con) and a +3 modifier.

1) If your DM rules you can't snatch a worn object from an opponent (such as grab his dagger from its sheath or tear off his belt) leave his game.

2) otilukes sphere is 3rd level. Banishment is 4th.

3) the sphere is immune to magic or any other force acting on it from a reading of it.

4) Assuming an int of +3 and the arcana skill the EK has a pretty good chance of dispelling even high level spells (and is also lucky, leaving aside inspiration)

5) Pretty sure White Dragons are not 'elves' so the EK can't exactly bladesing in dragon form (or alternatively would look hilarious trying to dance around as a white dragon). Do the rules for shapechanging (and common sense) not kinda kick in here? How exacly is the Dragon dancing an Elven dance? I have a hard enouh time doing human dances for gods sake.

Wasting a whole action turning into a dragon (only to be beaten senseless by an action surging fighter 20 as your scaly white 4 legs don't kinda coordinate) would be kinda funny though.

Forum Explorer

2015-12-01, 12:59 PM

5) Pretty sure White Dragons are not 'elves' so the EK can't exactly bladesing in dragon form (or alternatively would look hilarious trying to dance around as a white dragon). Do the rules for shapechanging (and common sense) not kinda kick in here? How exacly is the Dragon dancing an Elven dance? I have a hard enouh time doing human dances for gods sake.

Wasting a whole action turning into a dragon (only to be beaten senseless by an action surging fighter 20 as your scaly white 4 legs don't kinda coordinate) would be kinda funny though.

They don't need to bladesing once they are a dragon. They're a dragon. I'm pretty sure a dragon can take on a level 20 fighter and win. (Also the dragon can still cast shield, so it'll have a high AC too, at least once the EK runs out of counter spells)

Malifice

2015-12-01, 01:14 PM

They don't need to bladesing once they are a dragon. They're a dragon. I'm pretty sure a dragon can take on a level 20 fighter and win. (Also the dragon can still cast shield, so it'll have a high AC too, at least once the EK runs out of counter spells)

Im not persuaded a dragon can take on a EK 20 and win.

The Wizards best chance is with spells.

Forum Explorer

2015-12-01, 01:23 PM

Im not persuaded a dragon can take on a EK 20 and win.

The Wizards best chance is with spells.

Well do the math. I did a similar one with a Balor and a Champion, and the Balor should win, barely. If it doesn't win then the explosion from it's death would take out the Champion.

Dragons are normally tougher, and once you take out the dragon you've got a level 20 wizard who is only short some HP and a level 9 spell.

EvilAnagram

2015-12-01, 01:58 PM

Well do the math. I did a similar one with a Balor and a Champion, and the Balor should win, barely. If it doesn't win then the explosion from it's death would take out the Champion.

Dragons are normally tougher, and once you take out the dragon you've got a level 20 wizard who is only short some HP and a level 9 spell.

Dragons don't resist nonmagical damage, don't have magic resistance, and don't explode when they die. An EK can actually handle one pretty well.

Personally, I'd still take the Alert feat as an EK, attack the first turn. If the Wizard uses Shield during your onslaught, which is pretty reasonable, he's used his reaction. He's still probably been hit, so he'll be at disadvantage when you cast Banishment on him. It targets his dump stat, so the BS has a 0.25-2.25% of passing his save.

If the BS doesn't use Shield, he'll definitely get hit multiple times, and you can Counterspell his Counterspell when you cast Banishment.

Dalebert

2015-12-01, 02:02 PM

This is starting to remind me of the genie fight from Aladdin, the TV movie version with John Leguizamo playing both genies.

EvilAnagram

2015-12-01, 02:48 PM

This is starting to remind me of the genie fight from Aladdin, the TV movie version with John Leguizamo playing both genies.

I can make it more ridiculous! While the BS is banished, use Mold Earth to dig a 15' pit underneath where he was standing, then use Fabricate on the charcoal, salt peter, and sulfur you keep around for exactly this situation to fill the bottom of the pit with gunpowder! You can set it to go off when you lose concentration with a bit of alchemist's fire (can't be Counterspelled).

Wiles Coyote signs are encouraged for this strategy.

Forum Explorer

2015-12-01, 02:58 PM

Dragons don't resist nonmagical damage, don't have magic resistance, and don't explode when they die. An EK can actually handle one pretty well.

Personally, I'd still take the Alert feat as an EK, attack the first turn. If the Wizard uses Shield during your onslaught, which is pretty reasonable, he's used his reaction. He's still probably been hit, so he'll be at disadvantage when you cast Banishment on him. It targets his dump stat, so the BS has a 0.25-2.25% of passing his save.

If the BS doesn't use Shield, he'll definitely get hit multiple times, and you can Counterspell his Counterspell when you cast Banishment.

I assumed the Champion has a magical weapon for my duel, magic resistance doesn't matter for champions, dragons have Frightful presence, and have breath weapons. Dragons also have more HP, more AC, and more attacks.

So I'm genuinely curious, how would you have an EK take down a dragon?

Also, banishment doesn't do much of anything. It just stalls the fight for 1 minute. (The spell specifies a harmless demiplane)

EvilAnagram

2015-12-01, 03:06 PM

Also, banishment doesn't do much of anything. It just stalls the fight for 1 minute. (The spell specifies a harmless demiplane)
See my above post.

As for dragons, I'm AFB, but last time I mathed it out it takes a Fighter roughly five turns to reduce an Ancient Red Dragon to 50% HP going solo. The dragons a True Polymorph can bring into play have less HP, and that's enough damage to fail at least one CON save.

I would also try baiting them into using a reaction to give me a Dispel opening. This could actually work pretty easily since people who just turned into dragons are likely to be pretty sure of themselves.

Of course, I could try a Counterspell when it's cast, then after the BS uses his reaction to counter my counter, I could just Dispel without fearing a Counterspell. Then Action Surge and attack the helpless Wizard. I'd use two 3rd level slots, while he would have used a 7th and a 3rd while getting diced to bits.

Edit: Of course, any time you bring up True Polymorph you're explicitly no longer discussing how well a class can gish, which is pretty obviously the central question OP is asking.

Forum Explorer

2015-12-01, 03:39 PM

See my above post.

As for dragons, I'm AFB, but last time I mathed it out it takes a Fighter roughly five turns to reduce an Ancient Red Dragon to 50% HP going solo. The dragons a True Polymorph can bring into play have less HP, and that's enough damage to fail at least one CON save.

I would also try baiting them into using a reaction to give me a Dispel opening. This could actually work pretty easily since people who just turned into dragons are likely to be pretty sure of themselves.

Of course, I could try a Counterspell when it's cast, then after the BS uses his reaction to counter my counter, I could just Dispel without fearing a Counterspell. Then Action Surge and attack the helpless Wizard. I'd use two 3rd level slots, while he would have used a 7th and a 3rd while getting diced to bits.

It has to be more then 28 damage on a single attack for there even to be a chance to fail the Concentration check. Plus they'll likely have advantage on the check with Warcaster.

Even if you get the opening you need a 14 or higher to break the spell. Not the worst odds in the world, but not great. You don't even get a second chance because the other chance will be blocked by counterspell.

I'm not saying an EK can't win, but he needs to get lucky. The fight is in the Wizard's favor.

(My favorite Wizard tactic? Get a loyal hireling, cast Feeblemind on opponent, survive a turn, cast True Polymorph on loyal hireling to turn him into a Intellect Devourer, have hireling eat brains of opponent. Now your opponent is your loyal hireling.)

EDIT to your EDIT: I've had the stance from way back in this thread that the BS is actually a worse chance to beat an EK then pretty much any other wizard choice (other then Evoker). And that the BS winning would be as a Wizard, not by trying to beat the EK at it's own game. So that's why my tactics are what pretty much any Wizard can do.

EvilAnagram

2015-12-01, 04:12 PM

Snip

Do we have a definitive ruling that you can't use your proficiency bonus with Dispel? And it's a bit odd that you think an EK would only have 16 Int, not to mention that this whole discussion fails to be meaningful when anyone can claim to have the appropriate feats whenever it behooves them to.

Also, I really don't think he has to get that lucky. Sure, the nature of the duel eliminates the Fighter's advantage in renewable resources, but the simple fact is that a quick-witted EK can counter wizard abilities while still piling damage on.

Of course, you still haven't addressed the fact that OP is clearly asking who is the better gish, to which you are shouting, "I turn into a dragon!"

CNagy

2015-12-01, 04:17 PM

Do we have a definitive ruling that you can't use your proficiency bonus with Dispel?

Dispelling calls for an ability check using your spellcasting ability, it doesn't reference a skill with which to have proficiency. So either you would need a spell or effect that gave you proficiency in an entire ability score (none exist, to my knowledge, instead preferring to give advantage to such rolls) or you would need a feat or feature allowing you to add your proficiency specifically to Dispel/Counterspell (of which there exists only the 10th level Abjurer wizard tradition feature.)

Forum Explorer

2015-12-01, 04:32 PM

Do we have a definitive ruling that you can't use your proficiency bonus with Dispel? And it's a bit odd that you think an EK would only have 16 Int, not to mention that this whole discussion fails to be meaningful when anyone can claim to have the appropriate feats whenever it behooves them to.

Also, I really don't think he has to get that lucky. Sure, the nature of the duel eliminates the Fighter's advantage in renewable resources, but the simple fact is that a quick-witted EK can counter wizard abilities while still piling damage on.

Of course, you still haven't addressed the fact that OP is clearly asking who is the better gish, to which you are shouting, "I turn into a dragon!"

The spell specifies Ability Score check which means proficiency isn't added. Also where are you getting 16 from? I'm assuming Int 20 for a +5. Against a level 9 spell, she needs to roll a 14 or better to dispel it. (10+spell level being the DC)

The EK has a lot of tricks, but there's even stuff like just going up against a single Plane Shift that can instant win the fight (and statistically should, even with the rerolls from Indomitable).

Oh I did that way back when, I agree that EK is a much better Gish. When it comes to a fight between the two, the only chance a BS has is to go full wizard rather then try and depend on it's gish stuff to try and compete with the EK.

Desamir

2015-12-01, 05:24 PM

1) If your DM rules you can't snatch a worn object from an opponent (such as grab his dagger from its sheath or tear off his belt) leave his game.

2) otilukes sphere is 3rd level. Banishment is 4th.

3) the sphere is immune to magic or any other force acting on it from a reading of it.

4) Assuming an int of +3 and the arcana skill the EK has a pretty good chance of dispelling even high level spells (and is also lucky, leaving aside inspiration)

5) Pretty sure White Dragons are not 'elves' so the EK can't exactly bladesing in dragon form (or alternatively would look hilarious trying to dance around as a white dragon). Do the rules for shapechanging (and common sense) not kinda kick in here? How exacly is the Dragon dancing an Elven dance? I have a hard enouh time doing human dances for gods sake.

Wasting a whole action turning into a dragon (only to be beaten senseless by an action surging fighter 20 as your scaly white 4 legs don't kinda coordinate) would be kinda funny though.

1. We're not talking about disarming goblins in a home game though, we're talking about PvP, so we'll need to make some reasonable houserules to allow this as an option.

2. Both are 4th level. http://www.dnd-spells.com/spell/otilukes-resilient-sphere

3. The sphere prevents spells passing through it from one side to the other, but not dispelling. Compare to Wall of Force, which specifically says it can't be dispelled. Sphere can also be disintegrated, per the spell text. The Wizard wouldn't waste a spell slot on it, though--he'd rather wait it out and be grateful for the free prep rounds.

4. Dispel Magic requires an Int ability check, no proficiency. The EK would be rolling a +3 against a DC 19 to dispel True Polymorph.

5. Bladesinging would turn off completely once polymorphed. Not that he would need it. I don't see a 20th level fighter having a chance against a CR20 flying dragon. How is the fighter going to action surge against a target that's 40ft in the air?

Vogonjeltz

2015-12-01, 06:11 PM

Of course, I could try a Counterspell when it's cast, then after the BS uses his reaction to counter my counter, I could just Dispel without fearing a Counterspell. Then Action Surge and attack the helpless Wizard. I'd use two 3rd level slots, while he would have used a 7th and a 3rd while getting diced to bits.

Pretty much this. The Bladesinger has access to some higher level spells, but they are going to get murdered by action surging which is vastly superior to bladesinging as a class feature in terms of what it can be parlayed into.

Forum Explorer

2015-12-01, 06:36 PM

Pretty much this. The Bladesinger has access to some higher level spells, but they are going to get murdered by action surging which is vastly superior to bladesinging as a class feature in terms of what it can be parlayed into.

It's a tactic that only has a 35% chance of success. Not awful odds, but more often then not, the EK will be facing off against an angry dragon, and already burned all of their dispels.

Desamir

2015-12-01, 10:11 PM

Pretty much this. The Bladesinger has access to some higher level spells, but they are going to get murdered by action surging which is vastly superior to bladesinging as a class feature in terms of what it can be parlayed into.

I think the fact that Action Surge > Bladesinging is less important than the fact that 20th level Wizard > 20th level anything else.

EvilAnagram

2015-12-01, 10:22 PM

I think the fact that Action Surge > Bladesinging is less important than the fact that 20th level Wizard > 20th level anything else.

Only in theorycrafting, especially since there's a major focus in directly pitting classes against each other in duels (right now we have Bladesinger v. Eldritch Knight, Bladesinger v. Bladelock, and Druid v. Barbarian). The major drawback to playing a wizard is that your spells don't regenerate quickly, and when you ignore that drawback (as you do in duels) the power of the wizard increases greatly.

In actual play, I'd wager that all classes are competitive through 20.

Malifice

2015-12-01, 10:46 PM

Well do the math. I did a similar one with a Balor and a Champion, and the Balor should win, barely. If it doesn't win then the explosion from it's death would take out the Champion.

The Balor does fire damage each time it gets hit, so its not the greatest thing for a Champion to be fighting.

A Tiefling champion would be golden.

Dragons are normally tougher, and once you take out the dragon you've got a level 20 wizard who is only short some HP and a level 9 spell.

The EK just moves outside of 60' and fireballs the dragon back into Wizard form. Thats not an easy conentration check to pass. 8d6 fire (+0 Dex save for half) = a DC 15 (ish) check.

Forum Explorer

2015-12-01, 10:57 PM

The Balor does fire damage each time it gets hit, so its not the greatest thing for a Champion to be fighting.

A Tiefling champion would be golden.

The EK just moves outside of 60' and fireballs the dragon back into Wizard form. Thats not an easy conentration check to pass. 8d6 fire (+0 Dex save for half) = a DC 15 (ish) check.

True. The whole reason for the calculation in the first place was someone complaining that the Balor was too weak, so that's why I did it.

Er, you get a +6 to avoid it. And then you get a plus 14 for the con save. That's a very easy concentration check to pass.

Desamir

2015-12-01, 10:57 PM

The EK just moves outside of 60' and fireballs the dragon back into Wizard form. Thats not an easy conentration check to pass. 8d6 fire (+0 Dex save for half) = a DC 15 (ish) check.

Ancient Brass Dragons are immune to fire. Ancient White Dragons have +14 Constitution saves, as well as 3 legendary saves to reduce the Fireball to half.

Forum Explorer

2015-12-01, 11:00 PM

Ancient Brass Dragons are immune to fire. If wizard chose Ancient White instead for the burrow speed, 3 legendary saves means piddly damage.

You don't get legendary saves (or actions) with True Polymorph. You do get the rest of their stats though.

Desamir

2015-12-01, 11:03 PM

You don't get legendary saves (or actions) with True Polymorph. You do get the rest of their stats though.

You're thinking of Shapechange. True Polymorph gives you everything.

Malifice

2015-12-01, 11:13 PM

So I'm genuinely curious, how would you have an EK take down a dragon?

As a baseline:

Human EK
Alert, Lucky, Resilient [wisdom], Mage slayer, ASI: +5 Strength. +3 Int
S: 20
D: 14
C: 14
I: 16
W: 10
Ch: 10

Saves: Str +11, Dex +2, Con +8, Int +3, Wis +6, Ch +0

Spells: Haste, mirror image, polymorph, banishment, shield, counterspell, dispell magic, ottilukes resilient sphere, magic missile, fireball, protection from energy, stoneskin, lightning bolt

Cantrips: Booming blade, Greenflame blade, fire bolt

Skills [sage background]: Perception, athletics, arcana, two others.

Plate armor, greatsword (likely magical), defence style

Also, banishment doesn't do much of anything. It just stalls the fight for 1 minute. (The spell specifies a harmless demiplane)

It incapacitates the bladesinger (and blows its 1 minute duration), ending his bladesong. Hit him with that, and if he enters bladesong again, toss him in Ottilukes sphere for another minute using the same trick (counterspelling any attempt by him to counterspell it).

This is all somewhat moot as DnD isnt PVP (and the classes are not balanced around it).

Desamir

2015-12-02, 12:05 AM

As a baseline:

Human EK
Alert, Lucky, Resilient [wisdom], Mage slayer, ASI: +5 Strength. +3 Int
S: 20
D: 14
C: 14
I: 16
W: 10
Ch: 10

Saves: Str +11, Dex +2, Con +8, Int +3, Wis +6, Ch +0

Spells: Haste, mirror image, polymorph, banishment, shield, counterspell, dispell magic, ottilukes resilient sphere, magic missile, fireball, protection from energy, stoneskin, lightning bolt

Cantrips: Booming blade, Greenflame blade, fire bolt

Skills [sage background]: Perception, athletics, arcana, two others.

Plate armor, greatsword (likely magical), defence style

It incapacitates the bladesinger (and blows its 1 minute duration), ending his bladesong. Hit him with that, and if he enters bladesong again, toss him in Ottilukes sphere for another minute using the same trick (counterspelling any attempt by him to counterspell it).

This is all somewhat moot as DnD isnt PVP (and the classes are not balanced around it).

I reaaaally don't see an EK being able to solo a dragon. ~300 hit points, AC 20, 3 legendary saves, Frightening Presence, multiattack, breath weapon, flying speed. He will get mauled.

As for the banishment/sphere plan, it has some issues.

Banishment and Otiluke's sphere are both 4th level, you can only cast 1
If you go first, the wizard hasn't used Bladesong yet, so there's no point in incapacitating him
The wizard can upcast Counterspell, meaning the EK has to roll difficult Int checks to counter it

Malifice

2015-12-02, 12:35 AM

I reaaaally don't see an EK being able to solo a dragon. ~300 hit points, AC 20, 3 legendary saves, Frightening Presence, multiattack, breath weapon, flying speed. He will get mauled.

The legendary saves dont come with the polymorph.

Banishment and Otiluke's sphere are both 4th level, you can only cast 1

He can also use darkness as that nulifies most of the Wizards spells (which requires a target you can see). In fact, replace lightning bolt with darkness, and replace haste with hold person. Reduce Con and Dex by 2 and and increase Int to 18.

If you go first, the wizard hasn't used Bladesong yet, so there's no point in incapacitating him

Nah; If I won initiative, I would likely walk up to the Wizard, and shove him prone (athletics +11 vs athletics +0) then hit him 3 times at advantage, likely prompting a shield spell (that I would likely counter). The 'non dancing' Wizard has an AC of (using standard BS builds) 18 and around 100 HP. Three attacks at +11 with advantage vs AC 18 should generate 3 hits (@ 31 points of damage). Would blow a use of lucky to ensure at least one of the three attacks hit (if by some chance all six dice came up less than 7).

I'd follow that up with an action surged hold person + bonus action attack via improved war magic (Your standard BS build needs to pass a DC 18 wisdom save at +6 with disadvantage thanks to EK's eldritch strike). The bonus action attack is an auto crit if the hold person sticks.

The next save is an important save for the Wizard. He needs to pass it or he's in some serious trouble the following round (8 x auto crit attacks with advantage against AC 18, and he's probably already down to 50hp or less).

If he passes it, you rinse and repeat the same likely killing him anyway.

The odds arent great for the EK, but its not an 'insta-gib' by the BS like some suggest.

Desamir

2015-12-02, 01:00 AM

The legendary saves dont come with the polymorph.

Yes they do, you are confusing it with Shapechange.

He can also use darkness as that nulifies most of the Wizards spells (which requires a target you can see). In fact, replace lightning bolt with darkness, and replace haste with hold person. Reduce Con and Dex by 2 and and increase Int to 18.

Darkness takes an action to cast and can be counterspelled. But dragons have blindsight anyways, so the wizard will probably let it happen.

Nah; If I won initiative, I would likely walk up to the Wizard, and shove him prone (athletics +11 vs athletics +0) then hit him 3 times at advantage, likely prompting a shield spell (that I would likely counter). The 'non dancing' Wizard has an AC of (using standard BS builds) 18 and around 100 HP. Three attacks at +11 with advantage vs AC 18 should generate 3 hits (@ 31 points of damage). Would blow a use of lucky to ensure at least one of the three attacks hit (if by some chance all six dice came up less than 7). You mean +11 Athletics vs. +11 Acrobatics? The Wizard has 142 HP with a standard 16 Con build. No shield needed, Wizard just soaks the hits and ends up at ~100 HP.

I'd follow that up with an action surged hold person + bonus action attack via improved war magic (Your standard BS build needs to pass a DC 18 wisdom save at +6 with disadvantage thanks to EK's eldritch strike). The bonus action attack is an auto crit if the hold person sticks.

The next save is an important save for the Wizard. He needs to pass it or he's in some serious trouble the following round (8 x auto crit attacks with advantage against AC 18, and he's probably already down to 50hp or less).

If he passes it, you rinse and repeat the same likely killing him anyway.

Wizard counterspells the Hold Person with an 8th level slot, EK has to roll a DC 18 Int check with a +4 modifier (no proficiency) to counter the counterspell. Wizard soaks one more attack and then casts True Polymorph (or some other broken spell) on his turn. The EK already used his reaction, so he can't Counterspell it, but the Wizard has his own Counterspell back up either way.

There really isn't much the EK can do besides hope he rolls high on those Dispel Magic Int checks (very tough when Frightening Presence grants disadvantage on them). It's just not a very close fight, 9th level spells are too powerful.

Malifice

2015-12-02, 01:28 AM

Yes they do, you are confusing it with Shapechange.

Ah yes. True Polymorph replaces your stats with the critters stat block and stops you from casting your own spells, while Shapechange lets you retain your class features and mental ability scores and spellcasting (albeit only spells that dont require material components as your gear melds with your new form). I always get them mixed up.

Im not sure a Wizard wants to shut his own spellcasting down, or that 3 legendary saves is worth swapping out spellcasting for, but hey.

Darkness takes an action to cast and can be counterspelled.

Only if cast within 60' of the Wizard. Seeing as the EK can (move+teleport) any turn he action surges, getting outside of 60' isnt a problem.

You mean +11 Athletics vs. +11 Acrobatics? The Wizard has 142 HP with a standard 16 Con build. No shield needed, Wizard just soaks the hits and ends up at ~100 HP.

Int 20, Dex 20 and Con 16? Thats all his ASI accounted for, and no feats. That leaves him [assuming High elf] with a Charisma and Wisdom of 10 and a Strength of 8.

Wizard counterspells the Hold Person with an 8th level slot, the EK has to roll a DC 18 Int check with a +4 modifier (no proficiency) to counter the counterspell.

Counterspell is still a third level spell even when cast with an 8th level slot. By RAW reading of counterspell, there is no arcana check to counter a counterspell, even one cast with an 8th level slot (the higher slot of the counterspell just lets you counter more powerful spells without needing to make the check).

Even with a roll required, the EK gets advantage thanks to Lucky. He has a 57.75 percent chance of success.

There really isn't much the EK can do besides hope he rolls high on those Dispel Magic Int checks (very tough when Frightening Presence grants disadvantage on them). It's just not a very close fight, 9th level spells are too powerful.

+6 to Wisdom saves, indomitable and lucky. The wizard has disadvantage on con saves to maintain concentration. He loses concentration and he's down his 9th and 8th level slots.

But I agree, with all his long rest resources (spell slots) intact, the Wizard has the definate edge. As the adventuring day progresses, the EK gainst the clear advantage.

Forum Explorer

2015-12-02, 01:42 AM

Ah yes. True Polymorph replaces your stats with the critters stat block and stops you from casting your own spells, while Shapechange lets you retain your class features and mental ability scores and spellcasting (albeit only spells that dont require material components as your gear melds with your new form). I always get them mixed up.

Im not sure a Wizard wants to shut his own spellcasting down, or that 3 legendary saves is worth swapping out spellcasting for, but hey.

Int 20, Dex 20 and Con 16? Thats all his ASI accounted for, and no feats. That leaves him [assuming High elf] with a Charisma and Wisdom of 10 and a Strength of 8.

+6 to Wisdom saves, indomitable and lucky. The wizard has disadvantage on con saves to maintain concentration. He loses concentration and he's down his 9th and 8th level slots.

But I agree, with all his long rest resources (spell slots) intact, the Wizard has the definate edge. As the adventuring day progresses, the EK gainst the clear advantage.

Both are good. I'd go with Shapechange personally so I could keep spamming Shield when in dragon form.

I'd go with a Con of 14 to get War Caster. Put Charisma at 8 to get a Wis of 12 though.

I don't know why you'd bother countering with a level 8. A level 5 would do almost as good, assuming the spell was ruled that way.

Malifice

2015-12-02, 01:50 AM

Both are good. I'd go with Shapechange personally so I could keep spamming Shield when in dragon form.

One of the few spells you can cast seeing as your gear melds with the new form.

MaxWilson

2015-12-02, 02:43 AM

Yes they do, you are confusing it with Shapechange.

Even Shapechange still lets you have legendary resistance--you just don't get legendary actions or lair actions.

Idle question: if I transform into an adult red shadow dragon and transform a village of hapless NPCs into Shadows, they are under my control per the MM--what happens when I Shapechange into another form? Do I retain control over them while I'm a troll?

Malifice

2015-12-02, 03:31 AM

Even Shapechange still lets you have legendary resistance--you just don't get legendary actions or lair actions.

Idle question: if I transform into an adult red shadow dragon and transform a village of hapless NPCs into Shadows, they are under my control per the MM--what happens when I Shapechange into another form? Do I retain control over them while I'm a troll?

The control is a feature of the shadow dragon form, so no you would lose control.

And gain the ire of more than a few G aligned churches, the local lord and many families no doubt. The Paladins and assasins are a coming.

Flashy

2015-12-02, 03:37 AM

The control is a feature of the shadow dragon form, so no you would lose control.

And gain the ire of more than a few G aligned churches, the local lord and many families no doubt. The Paladins and assasins are a coming.

You know it's gone bad when the Palassasins are coming for you.

Malifice

2015-12-02, 03:46 AM

You know it's gone bad when the Palassasins are coming for you.

I believe the term is 'Avenger'.

:smallwink:

Vogonjeltz

2015-12-02, 06:56 PM

Ah yes. True Polymorph replaces your stats with the critters stat block and stops you from casting your own spells, while Shapechange lets you retain your class features and mental ability scores and spellcasting (albeit only spells that dont require material components as your gear melds with your new form). I always get them mixed up.

Im not sure a Wizard wants to shut his own spellcasting down, or that 3 legendary saves is worth swapping out spellcasting for, but hey.

Desamir's point caused me to re-read True Polymorph, and it occurs to me that there's a flaw in this plan.

True Polymorph specifies (bolding for emphasis): "If you turn a creature into another kind of creature"

Except, strictly speaking, an Ancient Red Dragon isn't a kind of creature, or rather, only the Red Dragon portion is. Ancient is it's age descriptor, and no where in True Polymorph does it allow you to specify or change the creatures age.

Ergo, unless your target is however many hundreds of years old that is required to be Ancient, they would instead be the age appropriate Red Dragon. i.e. like a Wyrmling or whatever.

Thoughts? I don't see anything that actually justifies being able to dictate age as otherwise you could turn someone into a three thousand year old human, instantly killing them from old age.

Osrogue

2015-12-02, 07:34 PM

Desamir's point caused me to re-read True Polymorph, and it occurs to me that there's a flaw in this plan.

True Polymorph specifies (bolding for emphasis): "If you turn a creature into another kind of creature"

Except, strictly speaking, an Ancient Red Dragon isn't a kind of creature, or rather, only the Red Dragon portion is. Ancient is it's age descriptor, and no where in True Polymorph does it allow you to specify or change the creatures age.

Ergo, unless your target is however many hundreds of years old that is required to be Ancient, they would instead be the age appropriate Red Dragon. i.e. like a Wyrmling or whatever.

Thoughts? I don't see anything that actually justifies being able to dictate age as otherwise you could turn someone into a three thousand year old human, instantly killing them from old age.

Alternatively, if you polymorph a forty year old person into a dog, the dog dies of old age and polymorph fails. Maybe they will be proportionately as old in their new form as they actually are?

Gignere

2015-12-02, 07:36 PM

Desamir's point caused me to re-read True Polymorph, and it occurs to me that there's a flaw in this plan.

True Polymorph specifies (bolding for emphasis): "If you turn a creature into another kind of creature"

Except, strictly speaking, an Ancient Red Dragon isn't a kind of creature, or rather, only the Red Dragon portion is. Ancient is it's age descriptor, and no where in True Polymorph does it allow you to specify or change the creatures age.

Ergo, unless your target is however many hundreds of years old that is required to be Ancient, they would instead be the age appropriate Red Dragon. i.e. like a Wyrmling or whatever.

Thoughts? I don't see anything that actually justifies being able to dictate age as otherwise you could turn someone into a three thousand year old human, instantly killing them from old age.

You conveniently left out the second part of the spell description,

,the new form can be any kind you choose whose...

So it can be any kind from Ancient to wyrmling.

Desamir

2015-12-02, 07:48 PM

Desamir's point caused me to re-read True Polymorph, and it occurs to me that there's a flaw in this plan.

True Polymorph specifies (bolding for emphasis): "If you turn a creature into another kind of creature"

Except, strictly speaking, an Ancient Red Dragon isn't a kind of creature, or rather, only the Red Dragon portion is. Ancient is it's age descriptor, and no where in True Polymorph does it allow you to specify or change the creatures age.

Ergo, unless your target is however many hundreds of years old that is required to be Ancient, they would instead be the age appropriate Red Dragon. i.e. like a Wyrmling or whatever.

Thoughts? I don't see anything that actually justifies being able to dictate age as otherwise you could turn someone into a three thousand year old human, instantly killing them from old age.

The only difference between a Wyrmling and an Ancient Dragon for the purposes of True Polymorph is that one is CR1 and the other is CR20. It's a bit of a stretch to assume that 5e forces you to check the life expectancies of every creature you change into. Otherwise, Druid Wild Shape would not work. You'd change into a mouse and instantaneously die.

If that's not enough, you can always write down "650" under the age section of your high elf wizard, problem solved.

Vogonjeltz

2015-12-03, 06:26 PM

You conveniently left out the second part of the spell description,

,the new form can be any kind you choose whose...

So it can be any kind from Ancient to wyrmling.

As I said, allowing kind to mean "age" instead of "typology" (i.e. A red dragon vs a green dragon) allows all kinds of shenanigans. It's no different than saying that you can true polymorph someone into a child or a human well beyond their lifespan.

The only difference between a Wyrmling and an Ancient Dragon for the purposes of True Polymorph is that one is CR1 and the other is CR20. It's a bit of a stretch to assume that 5e forces you to check the life expectancies of every creature you change into. Otherwise, Druid Wild Shape would not work. You'd change into a mouse and instantaneously die.

If that's not enough, you can always write down "650" under the age section of your high elf wizard, problem solved.

Well, the problem is that those are just age differences per the entry on dragons, not actually different creatures per se. The Wyrmling and the Ancient are the exact same creature at different stages of its lifespan. True Polymorph's creature options are presumably only limited to the imagination (i.e. I want to change into a Chinchilla, which isn't stat-blocked anywhere) rather than strictly what is in the Monster Manual. (Unless of course you're also arguing that if it's not stat-blocked then you can't true polymorph a thing into that kind of creature...which I would not agree with).

If one can change a creature into a supremely old or extremely young version, then it would also allow them to do the same thing as an insta-gib fatality from being too old.

CNagy

2015-12-03, 10:00 PM

Desamir

2015-12-03, 11:14 PM

If one can change a creature into a supremely old or extremely young version, then it would also allow them to do the same thing as an insta-gib fatality from being too old.

So you True Polymorph your enemy into a very old dog, it dies, and then (per the description of the spell) they are transformed back to their normal form. Not seeing the problem.

Gwendol

2015-12-04, 02:49 AM

As I said, allowing kind to mean "age" instead of "typology" (i.e. A red dragon vs a green dragon) allows all kinds of shenanigans. It's no different than saying that you can true polymorph someone into a child or a human well beyond their lifespan.

Well, the problem is that those are just age differences per the entry on dragons, not actually different creatures per se. The Wyrmling and the Ancient are the exact same creature at different stages of its lifespan. True Polymorph's creature options are presumably only limited to the imagination (i.e. I want to change into a Chinchilla, which isn't stat-blocked anywhere) rather than strictly what is in the Monster Manual. (Unless of course you're also arguing that if it's not stat-blocked then you can't true polymorph a thing into that kind of creature...which I would not agree with).

If one can change a creature into a supremely old or extremely young version, then it would also allow them to do the same thing as an insta-gib fatality from being too old.

I do think the intention is to allow wizards to at least ballpark the amount of HD dragon they turn into, however it does put into question other similar situations: can you turn someone into an archmage? A drow priestess or mage?

Desamir

2015-12-04, 03:36 PM

I do think the intention is to allow wizards to at least ballpark the amount of HD dragon they turn into, however it does put into question other similar situations: can you turn someone into an archmage? A drow priestess or mage?

It depends if you consider NPC blocks to be valid choices. They have a creature type and a CR, so I'd say yes.

Vogonjeltz

2015-12-05, 03:49 AM

I feel safe in saying the Monster Manual was not written with True Polymorphing Wizards in mind. It doesn't matter if True Polymorph allows you to change the age of something; the designation Ancient Black Dragon (for example) is strictly a game term, not necessarily the in-game designation of the creature. I imagine very few people sit down with the dragon first for a bit of a chat to see where exactly on the age range chart a given individual dragon falls.

The True Polymorphing Wizard is not specifying the age of the dragon he wants to turn into, he is specifying the size. Medium, Large, Huge, and Gargantuan; for dragons, size is naturally a function of age. For high level spellcasters, it is a function of the maximum CR of a creature that they can polymorph into.

Perhaps, but true polymorph would have been written with all the possibilities in mind. Hence the NPC appendix is filled with types of NPCs, not kinds of creatures. By that same token, I agree the character can pick any form and there's a limit on the form in terms of CR (a meta concept), but it doesn't say the caster chooses the size, or age, or any other physical characteristics, only the kind.

Point of fact, it looks like only Alter Self allows the caster to change their physical appearance. Unfortunately that's mutually exclusive with True Polymorph or Shapechange as it requires concentration as well.

So you True Polymorph your enemy into a very old dog, it dies, and then (per the description of the spell) they are transformed back to their normal form. Not seeing the problem.

Interestingly, the spell doesn't say the character would still be alive, it just says if it dies (not from hit point loss) then it reverts. That reversion restores hit points wouldn't make it less dead as one can be dead from causes other than hit point loss (Power Word Kill springs to mind). So this still looks problematic.

I do think the intention is to allow wizards to at least ballpark the amount of HD dragon they turn into, however it does put into question other similar situations: can you turn someone into an archmage? A drow priestess or mage?

For the latter? Absolutely not. That Appendix is for NPC roles, they aren't kinds of creatures at all, they're templates put on kinds of creatures (i.e. They have to be Elves, Humans, Dwarves, etc...).

For the former, as I mentioned, the spell doesn't state anything more than a kind of creature. The age state of that creature is not mentioned and the differentiation between an Ancient and a Wyrm is age-based, that either might fall within the CR restriction doesn't seem to be any more relevant than that an Elvish Barbarian might be within the CR range, the spell still doesn't say the caster gets to specify a change in class any more than they get to specify a change in age.

I admit it is very strictly adhering to the words used in the spell, but then again most all spells were intentionally walked back from their 3.5e counterparts, probably in response to exploitative readings of the language used then.

In any event, Crawford did mention on twitter that it's up to the DM and player to hash out if the character remains under the players control should TP become permanent.

Gignere

2015-12-05, 07:41 AM

Perhaps, but true polymorph would have been written with all the possibilities in mind. Hence the NPC appendix is filled with types of NPCs, not kinds of creatures. By that same token, I agree the character can pick any form and there's a limit on the form in terms of CR (a meta concept), but it doesn't say the caster chooses the size, or age, or any other physical characteristics, only the kind.

Point of fact, it looks like only Alter Self allows the caster to change their physical appearance. Unfortunately that's mutually exclusive with True Polymorph or Shapechange as it requires concentration as well.

Interestingly, the spell doesn't say the character would still be alive, it just says if it dies (not from hit point loss) then it reverts. That reversion restores hit points wouldn't make it less dead as one can be dead from causes other than hit point loss (Power Word Kill springs to mind). So this still looks problematic.

For the latter? Absolutely not. That Appendix is for NPC roles, they aren't kinds of creatures at all, they're templates put on kinds of creatures (i.e. They have to be Elves, Humans, Dwarves, etc...).

For the former, as I mentioned, the spell doesn't state anything more than a kind of creature. The age state of that creature is not mentioned and the differentiation between an Ancient and a Wyrm is age-based, that either might fall within the CR restriction doesn't seem to be any more relevant than that an Elvish Barbarian might be within the CR range, the spell still doesn't say the caster gets to specify a change in class any more than they get to specify a change in age.

I admit it is very strictly adhering to the words used in the spell, but then again most all spells were intentionally walked back from their 3.5e counterparts, probably in response to exploitative readings of the language used then.

In any event, Crawford did mention on twitter that it's up to the DM and player to hash out if the character remains under the players control should TP become permanent.

The word any in the second part of the sentence is what opens up the possibility. When one say any kind of orange, they don't mean just navel, small or old ones, it means all of them are choices. This is how TP is written the only limit is CR, if your reading is true then the use of TP to change an object to a creature will never work on say a 2 Billion year old piece of rock, because nothing in game is 2 B years old, which obviously is not how one should read or interpret the spell.

Gwendol

2015-12-05, 02:19 PM

I agree that NPC statblocks and specialty monsters like Drow Mages are not allowed forms for polymorph.

JoeJ

2015-12-05, 03:53 PM

georgie_leech

2015-12-06, 10:21 PM

Two billion years? Even the primordial gods aren't anywhere near that old.

A rock that's been around since the gods created the world then. Or some other suitably long time frame. You're picking nits with the scale of the example rather than the point being made.

EvilAnagram

2015-12-07, 01:53 PM

Two billion years? Even the primordial gods aren't anywhere near that old.

Why wouldn't they be? We've found rocks on Earth that are that old, and there's no reason that a fantasy realm planet must be much younger than Earth.

Vogonjeltz

2015-12-07, 07:47 PM

The word any in the second part of the sentence is what opens up the possibility. When one say any kind of orange, they don't mean just navel, small or old ones, it means all of them are choices. This is how TP is written the only limit is CR, if your reading is true then the use of TP to change an object to a creature will never work on say a 2 Billion year old piece of rock, because nothing in game is 2 B years old, which obviously is not how one should read or interpret the spell.

No Gignere, it doesn't. The use of "any" or "another" modifies "kind of creature". The word "kind", which in this case is being used in the noun sense, means: a group of people or things having similar characteristics. A close synonym would be any variety of creature.

A dragon is a kind of a creature. Age is not.

An old orange isn't a variety of orange, whereas a Valencia is.

Estrillian

2015-12-10, 03:05 PM

I have noticed that almost every discussion of Wizards eventually turns into argument over Polymorph or Simulacrum :P

Desamir

2015-12-10, 06:12 PM

Interestingly, the spell doesn't say the character would still be alive, it just says if it dies (not from hit point loss) then it reverts. That reversion restores hit points wouldn't make it less dead as one can be dead from causes other than hit point loss (Power Word Kill springs to mind). So this still looks problematic.

True Polymorph can already turn a creature permanently into a rock, so I'm still not seeing the problem.

RAW, the spell has no age limits. The only limitation is CR.

Osrogue

2015-12-11, 01:00 PM

True Polymorph can already turn a creature permanently into a rock, so I'm still not seeing the problem.

RAW, the spell has no age limits. The only limitation is CR.

When CR is a function of age, that is a problem.

Dalebert

2015-12-11, 01:19 PM

I have noticed that almost every discussion of Wizards eventually turns into argument over Polymorph or Simulacrum :P

Yeah, there's an apparent trend in these long threads. Is there any hope of the conversation going back to comparing an eldritch knight to a bladesinger in actual play in a cooperative game and not a duel and taking into account what a particular player's style is and what he wants to be good at? *sigh* Probably not.

Totally narcissist side note--I just made a bladesinger. I wasn't really after a gish particularly. I mostly wanted to play a wizard without having to dip any levels and thus slow access to higher level spells and I just wanted him to be less squishy and I like that he has benefits to maintaining concentration. That I can gish a little is really icing and is turning out to be kinda fun. I don't think they're objectively better than an eldritch knight. I only know that it fits what I wanted to play.

Also, I drew him. :P Click the spoiler if you want to see.

http://i.imgur.com/LetB8R3.jpg

Vogonjeltz

2015-12-11, 05:39 PM

Yeah, there's an apparent trend in these long threads. Is there any hope of the conversation going back to comparing an eldritch knight to a bladesinger in actual play in a cooperative game and not a duel and taking into account what a particular player's style is and what he wants to be good at? *sigh* Probably not.

This was a comparison in discussing the rules legality of a particular Bladesinger strategy, the validity of which impacts decisions on which (Bladesinger or Eldritch Knight) is the more powerful warrior/mage hybrid. That makes it entirely on topic.

Desamir

2015-12-11, 05:41 PM

When CR is a function of age, that is a problem.

It's only a problem if you assume age has mechanical relevance to True Polymorph or Wild Shape. RAW, it does not. Wild Shape lets you turn into a mouse or similarly short-lived animal with no issues. A CR20 dragon is a CR20 dragon, whether it's ancient or adult.

It logically follows that the age of your new form is included in the magic of True Polymorph/Wild Shape. Either that, or Wild Shape does not work. Which seems more likely?

Osrogue

2015-12-11, 06:37 PM

It's only a problem if you assume age has mechanical relevance to True Polymorph or Wild Shape. RAW, it does not. Wild Shape lets you turn into a mouse or similarly short-lived animal with no issues. A CR20 dragon is a CR20 dragon, whether it's ancient or adult.

It logically follows that the age of your new form is included in the magic of True Polymorph/Wild Shape. Either that, or Wild Shape does not work. Which seems more likely?

Very well. I choose to polymorph some hapless victim into a CR 0 baby tarrasque. I'll get there. You are a bit mistaken in your assumption regarding the connection between age and CR.

RAW doesn't say anything about age. That's what makes it vague and annoying when it comes up.

I ask you to name me an adult dragon with a CR of 20 from the MM, then. Well, more specifically, an adult dragon that shares a CR with any of its other ages. There isn't one since there is a clear power difference between all the ages with different CRs.

This leads to the odd situation where a wizard can polymorph into a young dragon, or a adult dragon, but not an ancient dragon. (Is there an age when a dragon stops being adult and becomes ancient? A second?)

When age is mechanically relevant to CR and CR is mechanically relevant to polymorph, then you have a case in which age is mechanically relevant to polymorph. That's the transitive property for you.

Here's the second problem. Polymorph doesn't require a wizard to pick a CR of a creature. It requires the wizard to pick a type of creature.

There are red dragons and blue dragons, but CR 20 is not a type of dragon. Red dragons and blue dragons have various CRs at various points in their development.

There are two possibilities. Either polymorph allows the wizard to select the desired age of the new form, in which case polymorph is affected by age (tell me that any creatures' baby is more than 0CR at birth). This wouldn't really matter much of the spell is used the way it's meant to, but the implications are dangerous. You could choose to polymorph things into younger versions of themselves, (immortality v3) raise baby krakens, and other cheese.

or the wizard does not determine the age of the new form, and the spell just defaults to the (presumably) adult form of the MM. This is when the dragon's multiple CRs per entry becomes problematic. It's not just one CR, but multiple CRs, and the wizard doesn't get to pick which one he wants.

Neither situation is favorable. Whatever the answer is, it doesn't matter much to me. I don't like it much regardless.

Forum Explorer

2015-12-11, 07:26 PM

Very well. I choose to polymorph some hapless victim into a CR 0 baby tarrasque. I'll get there. You are a bit mistaken in your assumption regarding the connection between age and CR.

RAW doesn't say anything about age. That's what makes it vague and annoying when it comes up.

I ask you to name me an adult dragon with a CR of 20 from the MM, then. Well, more specifically, an adult dragon that shares a CR with any of its other ages. There isn't one since there is a clear power difference between all the ages with different CRs.

This leads to the odd situation where a wizard can polymorph into a young dragon, or a adult dragon, but not an ancient dragon. (Is there an age when a dragon stops being adult and becomes ancient? A second?)

When age is mechanically relevant to CR and CR is mechanically relevant to polymorph, then you have a case in which age is mechanically relevant to polymorph. That's the transitive property for you.

Here's the second problem. Polymorph doesn't require a wizard to pick a CR of a creature. It requires the wizard to pick a type of creature.

There are red dragons and blue dragons, but CR 20 is not a type of dragon. Red dragons and blue dragons have various CRs at various points in their development.

There are two possibilities. Either polymorph allows the wizard to select the desired age of the new form, in which case polymorph is affected by age (tell me that any creatures' baby is more than 0CR at birth). This wouldn't really matter much of the spell is used the way it's meant to, but the implications are dangerous. You could choose to polymorph things into younger versions of themselves, (immortality v3) raise baby krakens, and other cheese.

or the wizard does not determine the age of the new form, and the spell just defaults to the (presumably) adult form of the MM. This is when the dragon's multiple CRs per entry becomes problematic. It's not just one CR, but multiple CRs, and the wizard doesn't get to pick which one he wants.

Neither situation is favorable. Whatever the answer is, it doesn't matter much to me. I don't like it much regardless.

And how is that different then transforming it into a baby anything else? Or even something just really weak. You can transform him into an ant without any difficulties. Or for an age based example, a Piercer (Though I would disagree that a baby Tarrasque, if such a thing is even possible, would be CR 0. A baby dragon is something like CR 2)

If it's a physical trait, then I allow it to be added to the spell, within the scope of the spell. You can't amp up your strength, but you can make your muscles more bulgy for example. Or you can make yourself more old looking.

But you can't do individual specific things, like transforming into an archmage (or a drow priestess for that matter) and casting their spells. You can be a drow, but you don't get the specific stuff they did.

Basically, you can transform into a person who looks like the king, but you can't transform into the king and know his magical password to the treasure vaults.

That's how I rule it, anyways.

Desamir

2015-12-11, 07:55 PM

Very well. I choose to polymorph some hapless victim into a CR 0 baby tarrasque. I'll get there. You are a bit mistaken in your assumption regarding the connection between age and CR.

I assume the goal is to make the change permanent, and then raise it as a pet? Even assuming you're willing to wait the centuries it takes to mature, a baby Tarrasque is not listed in the monster manual, and does not have a CR until the DM decides to give it one.

If the DM wants to give the wizard a baby Tarrasque, he is well within his power to do so, but now we're entering homebrew territory. Even allowing for all that, there's still no guarantee that the adult Tarrasque it grows into in 800 years will obey you (and more importantly, won't eat you).

This leads to the odd situation where a wizard can polymorph into a young dragon, or a adult dragon, but not an ancient dragon. (Is there an age when a dragon stops being adult and becomes ancient? A second?)

Is that actually an odd situation? CR is a metagame approximation of power level. True Polymorph is limited by CR because the spell is limited by the casters' own power level (or a multiple thereof). A 17th wizard can transform into a young or adult dragon, but not an ancient dragon, because he's not powerful enough to do so.

When age is mechanically relevant to CR and CR is mechanically relevant to polymorph, then you have a case in which age is mechanically relevant to polymorph. That's the transitive property for you.

There are many things that factor into CR. Age is only one of them (and only for dragons). True Polymorph doesn't care about how the creature got its CR, it only cares about the CR itself.

Here's the second problem. Polymorph doesn't require a wizard to pick a CR of a creature. It requires the wizard to pick a type of creature.

There are red dragons and blue dragons, but CR 20 is not a type of dragon. Red dragons and blue dragons have various CRs at various points in their development.

There are two possibilities. Either polymorph allows the wizard to select the desired age of the new form, in which case polymorph is affected by age (tell me that any creatures' baby is more than 0CR at birth). This wouldn't really matter much of the spell is used the way it's meant to, but the implications are dangerous. You could choose to polymorph things into younger versions of themselves, (immortality v3) raise baby krakens, and other cheese.

or the wizard does not determine the age of the new form, and the spell just defaults to the (presumably) adult form of the MM. This is when the dragon's multiple CRs per entry becomes problematic. It's not just one CR, but multiple CRs, and the wizard doesn't get to pick which one he wants.

Neither situation is favorable. Whatever the answer is, it doesn't matter much to me. I don't like it much regardless.

I'd allow the wizard to select the age regardless. It would seem silly that you could turn a rock into an ogre, and a child human into an adult human, but not an adult into a child, because you can only turn things into adults.

I think both of those possibilities are reading too much into the presumed physics of the spell. The third possibility is that True Polymorph lets you choose a stat block based on CR, irrespective of age, size, or any other quality. That fits the RAW (and probably the RAI) of the spell best.