Using Confound the Big Folk. What?

[Rubik]

Confound the Big Folk is a tactical feat from Races of the Wild.

The phrasings on Knee Striker and Unsteady Footing are just weird.

"Knee Striker: To use this maneuver, you must first move into a square occupied by a foe at least two size categories larger than you. On the next round, the foe is automatically considered flat-footed against your attacks"

"Unsteady Footing: To use this maneuver, you must first move into a square occupied by a foe at least two size categories larger than you. On the next round, you can use a standard action to attempt to trip your foe without provoking attacks of opportunity."

Is it from the end of my turn to the end of my turn next round? Is it based on initiative (0 back to 0)? What happens if I manifest Synchronicity and use my standard action before my next turn? What if I manifest Anticipatory Strike? What if the larger creature provokes an attack of opportunity? What if I manage to move into its space outside my turn? What if I delay my action?

If I want to use Unsteady Footing, and I have to wait for my next turn without messing with initiative or anything, that means I have to hope that my enemy doesn't move at all, and for some reason either doesn't notice I'm there or ignores me entirely and doesn't try to take me out in the intervening round, which just seems to make that part of the feat practically useless.

So...what's up with that?

[ben-zayb]

Interestingly, your bigger foe moving away does practically nothing to the feats' effects. At worst, you can't make a melee full attack; If you're okay with ranged full attack, that won't even be an issue.

[Snowbluff]

Is it from the end of my turn to the end of my turn next round? Is it based on initiative (0 back to 0)? What happens if I manifest Synchronicity and use my standard action before my next turn? What if I manifest Anticipatory Strike? What if the larger creature provokes an attack of opportunity? What if I manage to move into its space outside my turn? What if I delay my action?
Stop. It says round. Init back to 0 and at the top order again. If you use synchronicity on the next round, you would get the bonus. Not the first round, not the third round.

[Rubik]

Interestingly, your bigger foe moving away does practically nothing to the feats' effects. At worst, you can't make a melee full attack; If you're okay with ranged full attack, that won't even be an issue.Huh. Now that I look at it, it doesn't even say I have to stay in the other creature's space. I can enter the space and then exit it and still trigger both Knee Striker and Unsteady Footing.

Huh.


Stop. It says round. Init back to 0 and at the top order again. If you use synchronicity on the next round, you would get the bonus. Not the first round, not the third round.Using metagame concepts for concrete results just seems weird.

[KillianHawkeye]

A round is a unit of game time that lasts from any point in the initiative order to that same point during the next set of turns. In practice, it usually isn't isn't measured from an arbitrarily chosen initiative value such as initiative count zero.

As an example, a first level wizard casts Summon Monster I. The casting time is 1 round, so he begins casting it on his turn and doesn't finish until just before his initiative comes up in the next round (i.e., one full round later). The wizard designates a location for the monster to appear and it does so, then the wizard's new turn immediately begins and he does whatever he does on his new turn. The Summon Monster spell has a duration of 1 round, so the summoned creature also takes it's turn of actions at the same time as the wizard. It remains on the field of battle until just before the same point in the initiative in the next round (i.e., one full round later) regardless of whether the wizard did anything on his second turn to change his place in the initiative order (or until it is killed or otherwise removed prematurely).

[Snowbluff]

A round is a unit of game time that lasts from any point in the initiative order to that same point during the next set of turns. In practice, it usually isn't isn't measured from an arbitrarily chosen initiative value such as initiative count zero.


Ugh, it says "the next round," not for one round.

An effect that lasts "a round" would got until your next turn (be it a spell on turn or off turn, moving off or on turn).

Let's say you use the effect at point B in time.

Daze spell:
A B C A B C

Confound the Big Folk:
A B C A B C

[KillianHawkeye]

I disagree with your interpretation. You don't have to "ugh" me.

If I tell you that you can win a prize if you call me in the next minute, that minute starts immediately, not whenever your clock changes over.

[Snowbluff]

I disagree with your interpretation. You don't have to "ugh" me.

If I tell you that you can win a prize if you call me in the next minute, that minute starts immediately, not whenever your clock changes over.

There you go again. You're giving an example for a seperate case of different language. Do you have an argument, or are you going to drive us off the point on the post.

[Troacctid]

I believe this is the relevant rule.

For almost all purposes, there is no relevance to the end of a round or the beginning of a round. A round can be a segment of game time starting with the first character to act and ending with the last, but it usually means a span of time from one round to the same initiative count in the next round. Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on.

[KillianHawkeye]

There you go again. You're giving an example for a seperate case of different language. Do you have an argument, or are you going to drive us off the point on the post.

So anyone who disagrees with you lacks and argument or is "driving us off the point?" Nice attitude!

Troacctid understands what I'm saying.

[nedz]

I agree with KillianHawkeye and Troacctid.

I guess how you interpret this depends upon whether you call out your initiatives round by round or just treat them as a rolling series of turns: I use the latter.

To use your example

Confound the Big Folk:
A B C A B C

As for moving out of your square: AoO.

[Snowbluff]

I believe this is the relevant rule.
It straight says it can be either. It's not specific enough a rule to make a ruling when compare to the relatively specific feat.

So anyone who disagrees with you lacks and argument or is "driving us off the point?" Nice attitude!

Troacctid understands what I'm saying.

It's a great attitude, especially with a population fallacy and pointing out a rule that agrees with me. Do you have anything to add for the discussion of the language?

[bekeleven]

Ending Your Movement
You can’t end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless.Here's that rule the designers forgot. Anywhere special I should place it?

[Rubik]

Here's that rule the designers forgot. Anywhere special I should place it?How about right after the prerequisite feat that allows you to share a space with creatures 2+ size categories larger than you?

[BWR]

RAW I have to agree with Snowbluff, and that interpretation makes for all sorts of problems.
As for RAI, I'm not entirely sure but I would assume, and for ease of play would rule, that the feat should be rewritten to say something to the effect that while you are within the space of a creature at least two size categories larger than yourself you may use these abilities.

[bekeleven]

How about right after the prerequisite feat that allows you to share a space with creatures 2+ size categories larger than you?

It doesn't let you share space, it lets you move into or through their space without provoking. Normal: You can move into or through their space (3+) but provoke. No part of either feat lets you end a turn there.

RAW, a creature with 0 reach needs the feat Spring Attack (or flyby attack) to strike with any melee weapon (even reach), since if you stop in their space you're performing an illegal move. There are a few other ways around it, but they're niche, like dipping abrupt jaunt wizard or other swift/immediate movement.

The most graceful rules change to resolve this would allow creatures to end movement in overlapping space and teleport out of the space at the end of their turn*. The most useable rules change is to add the words "within three sizes of you" after the word "creature" and have underfoot combat change that to 2.

This has, I suspect, appeared in at least one dysfunctional thread by now. It's too large not to have. But then, it was pretty recent that I realized some unarmed strike dysfunctions were absent so who knows.

*Edit: I say this is the most graceful because you can already interpret the rules as doing this. That said, neither this nor the one I called RAW are exactly desirable.

[Snowbluff]

I agree with KillianHawkeye and Troacctid.

I guess how you interpret this depends upon whether you call out your initiatives round by round or just treat them as a rolling series of turns: I use the latter.

To use your example

Confound the Big Folk:
A B C A B C

As for moving out of your square: AoO.


RAW I have to agree with Snowbluff, and that interpretation makes for all sorts of problems.
As for RAI, I'm not entirely sure but I would assume, and for ease of play would rule, that the feat should be rewritten to say something to the effect that while you are within the space of a creature at least two size categories larger than yourself you may use these abilities.
This is how I'm leaning concerning the RAI after what nedz said. I'm not sure what's the deal.

It could be
A B! C A B C A B C

Like Rubik said, the RAW answer sounds like nonsense in game:
A B! C A B C A B C

But they use the work "next." Did they mean this?
A B1 C A B C A B C
Like, it starts on your next turn?

Part of my reasoning for the raw answer is that is sounds like they specifying a specific part of the game (like saying "on your turn" versus "for a turn"). If they wanted to make it something different, I would hope they would use something like "at the start of your next turn, the target is flat footed to your attacks for a round."

EDIT:
Bekeleven, this might help. There are some specific rules:
Very Small Creature

]
A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature can move into or through an occupied square. The creature provokes attacks of opportunity when doing so. The use of into implies that they can move in without leaving.

Tiny, Diminutive, and Fine Creatures

Very small creatures take up less than 1 square of space. This means that more than one such creature can fit into a single square. A Tiny creature typically occupies a space only 2½ feet across, so four can fit into a single square. Twenty-five Diminutive creatures or 100 Fine creatures can fit into a single square. Creatures that take up less than 1 square of space typically have a natural reach of 0 feet, meaning they can’t reach into adjacent squares. They must enter an opponent’s square to attack in melee. This provokes an attack of opportunity from the opponent. You can attack into your own square if you need to, so you can attack such creatures normally. Since they have no natural reach, they do not threaten the squares around them. You can move past them without provoking attacks of opportunity. They also can’t flank an enemy. And you can attack at range of 0.

[bekeleven]

EDIT:
Bekeleven, this might help. There are some specific rules:
Very Small Creature
The use of into implies that they can move in without leaving. They can. All they need is spring attack, an anklet of translocation, etc.

And you can attack at range of 0.Yep. As long as you have spring attack, an anklet of translocation. etc.

[Troacctid]

They can. All they need is spring attack, an anklet of translocation, etc.
Yep. As long as you have spring attack, an anklet of translocation. etc.

They don't need any special abilities for it.


Two creatures less than two size categories apart cannot occupy the same spaces in combat except under special circumstances (for example, when grappling, riding a mount, or if one is unconscious or dead).

Creatures two size categories apart can occupy the same space without special circumstances. Half the normal number of creatures can occupy the space as usual (fractions are not allowed). Creatures may occupy the same square if they are three or more size categories different. For instance, a human could occupy one of the squares also occupied by a purple worm.

Example: A human (Medium) fights a cloud giant (Huge). The human occupies a single space. The cloud giant occupies roughly nine spaces. If the human tried to occupy one of the giant’s spaces, up to half as many humans as normal could fit, since the creatures are two size categories apart. Since that only amounts to one-half of a human, the human cannot occupy one of the giant’s spaces without grappling.

Example: A halfling (Small) fights the same cloud giant. The halfling, like the human, occupies a single space. If the halfling tries to occupy one of the giant’s cubes, the normal number of halflings (one) could fit, since the creatures are three size categories apart.

[Rubik]

They don't need any special abilities for it.Not that it matters for Confound the Big Folk, but multiple creatures can occupy the same 5' space if the "space" part of their space/reach is less than 5', or if they're a swarm or mob.