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JBPuffin
2015-11-20, 11:58 PM
Recently I decided to try and limit my system dabbling; rather than homebrew content for ten or so different systems, I'll simply save what I have and focus on the ones I play, which are - D&D 4e, Magic: the Gathering, and...well, I have a 5e game on hiatus, but that doesn't count :P. So, as the title says, this is "classless" 4e.

What this isn't - a rewrite of 4e, a complete removal of archetypes, some wonky point-buy extraganza, something that uses Essentials content (although if you guys can figure out how to work that, I'm all ears).

The Process

Roll/Select Ability Scores. Choose one to be your Prime Ability Score (PAS) and another to be your Secondary Ability Score (SAS).
Select a Race
Build Your Class - See the below section
Select your skills, feats, and rituals if any, and get your starting gear



That's the standard character creation process, right? Just about, yes, except that third bit...

Building Your Class
1. Choose your Role
Each Role has its own base stats; your Role also determines which "Class" Features you have access to. The Base Stat Blocks are as follows:
• Starting HP: 10+Constitution score
• HP/level: 4
• Healing Surges/day: 6+Con mod
• Armor Proficiencies: Cloth
• Weapon Proficiencies: Simple melee, simple ranged
• Base Starting Skills: 4

• Starting HP: 15+Constitution score
• HP/level: 6
• Healing Surges/day: 8+Con mod
• Armor Proficiencies: Cloth, leather, hide
• Weapon Proficiencies: Simple melee, simple ranged
• Base Starting Skills: 4

Leader
Basic Statistics:
• Starting HP: 12+Constitution score
• HP/level: 5
• Healing Surges/day: 7+Con mod
• Armor Proficiencies: Cloth, leather, hide
• Weapon Proficiencies: Simple melee, simple ranged
• Base Starting Skills: 4

• Starting HP: 12+Constitution score
• HP/level: 5
• Healing Surges/day: 6+Con mod
• Armor Proficiencies: Cloth
• Weapon Proficiencies: Simple melee, simple ranged
• Base Starting Skills: 4


After choosing your Role, you make a bunch of choices. Life's hard some times.
2. Split a +2 bonus among your non-AC defenses (Fort, Ref, and Will) however you like.
3. Train an extra skill or add an additional +1 to any of Fortitude, Reflex, or Will; the bonus to any one defense cannot exceed +2
4. Pick three of the following:

o An extra skill (may only be taken once from this list)
o Proficiency with three martial weapons (any number of times)
o Proficiency with any one implement (any number of times)
o Proficiency with the next level of armor (until you run out; there is no category above 6[plate])

5. Class Features - These are split by Role, and into Halfs and Singles. Each player picks a total of 3 full Features (so you could get 6 halfs if you're a striker and insane...) from the following lists;
• Half-Features (you may take any two from this list; they count as one feature)
o Cantrips, Ritual Casting, Channel Divinity (invoker), Discipline Focus
• Singles
o Arcane Implement Mastery, Spellbook, (Balance of Nature and Wild Shape) – Go together, Primal Aspect, Divine Convenant

• Half-Features (you may take any two from this list; they count as one feature)
o Channel Divinity (paladin), Combat Superiority, Lay on Hands, Font of Life, Psionic Study, Swordbond, Swordmage Warding
• Singles
o Combat Challenge, Fighter Weapon Talent, Divine Challenge, Nature’s Wrath, Guardian Might, Psionic Defense, Swordmage Aegis

• Half-Features (you may take any two from this list; they count as one feature)
o Channel Divinity (cleric ), Healer’s Lore, Combat Leader, Archer Warlord (this one’s weird…), Bardic Training, Skill Versatility, Song of Rest, Words of Friendship, Speak with Spirits, Runic Artistry, Arcane Empowerment, Arcane Rejuvenation, Ritual Casting
• Singles
o Healing Word, Inspiring Word, Majestic Word, Commanding Presence, Ardent Mantle, Ardent Surge, Companion Spirit, Healing Spirit, Rune of Mending, Rune Master, Healing Infusion

• Half-Features (you may take any two from this list; they count as one feature)
o Channel Divinity (avenger), Prime Shot, First Strike, Rogue Weapon Talent, Shadow Walk, Armor of Faith, Barbarian Agility, Rampage, Unarmed Combatant, Unarmored Defense, Inevitable Shot
• Singles
o Fighting Style, Hunter’s Quarry, Oath of Enmity, Beast Mastery (counts as 1˝ choices), Sneak Attack, Rogue Tactics, Eldritch Pact, Warlock’s Curse, Avenger’s Censure, Feral Might, Rage Strike, Monastic Tradition, Seeker’s Bond
• Doubles – Spell Souce. It’s the Sorc’s only feature, so of course it’s more than one feature for cost’s sake. To split it up:
o Half-Features – Scales of the Dragon, Dragon Soul, Unfettered Power, Chaos Burst, Storm’s Embrace, Wild Soul
o Singles – Draconic Power, Chaos Power, Draconic Resilience, Storm Power, Storm Soul, Cosmic Persistence, Cosmic Power


6. Power Selection. First off, do you want to do psionics? If you aren't a striker and wish to do so, you get the Psionic Augmentation feature for your Role and follow instructions for that class. Otherwise, follow your class features' mandates (looking at Wild Shape and Companion Spirit mainly) and pick your powers from among those available to your role. Powers that check for class features for extra effect still check for that, but anything involving an ability score modifier uses your SAS; meanwhile, attack and damage rolls for powers, as well as riders that use the same score as the attack/damage roll, use your PAS.

There are some things to note here:
*Channel Divinity: This one’s a bit tricky. Each character should get two powers – one is decided by the class in parentheses. The other, however, is where things get odd. For all intents and purposes, at least for now, they can just pick their second one. I’m sure it’ll be fine, honest.
*Multiclassing: Honestly, I’m banning this for the default state. You want to allow it, be my guest. As of right now, though, I need to test the waters without complicating things like that.
*Retraining: Much as a player can retrain a character’s power choices, a player can retrain a class feature choice(s) whenever they level up. DM’s rules apply.
*AC Boosting Abilities: I’m just going to note this right now – if you have a striker pick more than one, that’s their choice. They only get so many features, after all…
*Class/Power Source Things: Ignore all mention of these things. PPs and EDs are open to everyone who otherwise qualifies; same with feats and such. Class features trigger off any appropriate power the character has (this has been reflected in the costs of, say, the Sorc's Power class features).
*Essentials: I really don't know what to do with them as of yet. Any ideas?

And that'll be it for now. Reserving posts for FAQs, some sample builds, and just in case people come up with good points and I need to spill over for changes. Thanks to anyone who doesn't TL;DR this :smallbiggrin:.

JBPuffin
2015-11-20, 11:59 PM
Reserved for possible changes/builds.

JBPuffin
2015-11-21, 12:01 AM
Reserved for possible changes/builds/FAQage.

Greased Up Fox
2015-11-23, 01:38 PM
I like the idea.

Hawk7915
2015-11-23, 07:23 PM
I think an issue here is that many roles essentially become "Solved"; i.e. certain options are so powerful that they rise to the top with ease. For instance (and my opti-fu is weak compared to a true system master...)


1. Every Defender is going to take Font of Life and Combat Challenge because early saves, AoO on a shift, and SAS to AoO is too good to pass up and that leaves you two points to buy other traits. I imagine the vast majority of defenders also go for Plate + Swordmage Warding although at least there's an argument for doing something else.

2. Every controller takes Arcane Implement Mastery and Sleep as their first daily, easy day.

3. I imagine most Strikers want Avenger's rerolls, although that role will at least leave some versatility in the implement characters versus Chargers versus Twin-strikers.

4. The vast majority of leaders have every reason to take two healing features which will mess with combat math somewhat.

I know your goal is "everything can do anything" but I do think there needs to be some limits. Every defender gets a mark mechanism, so maybe you choose one of those and can never take two. Same with an extra damage feature, a healing feature, and anything that can penalize saves.

EDIT: Man do Pacifist Lazy-Leaders get a lot better when they can use 4 or 6x "Healer" powers per encounter and always take an enabling power like Direct the Strike or Commander's Strike.

Bruno Carvalho
2015-11-23, 07:49 PM
*Essentials: I really don't know what to do with them as of yet. Any ideas?


Kill it. With fire.

JBPuffin
2015-11-25, 10:28 PM
Kill it. With fire.
I've recently switched my Bard in an ongoing campaign for a Skald...still, sound logic is sound :P.


I think an issue here is that many roles essentially become "Solved"; i.e. certain options are so powerful that they rise to the top with ease. For instance (and my opti-fu is weak compared to a true system master...)


I figured optimizing would crack this thing in two; it's not a concern for me due to how my group plays atm, and the fact that I'd be the one to build their classes, but for DMs concerned about how the system cracks the balance they do have veto power. I will gladly take advice on how to best arrange this system to make it an easier task, though, especially on the powers. Should I make it more point buy to more accurately price individual features? Are there any particular combinations you're concerned about (not power + feature, just feature+feature for now)? Thanks for the feedback, Hawk.

Hawk7915
2015-11-30, 12:35 AM
I'd have to spend a lot of time with my books, but initially my major concerns are...

- Healer's Lore is a half, but is Battle Cleric's Lore? If so that seems too strong and a no-brainer for basically all leaders. It should be a full point, or be banned.

- two healer powers seems mighty strong and is saved from being the default by the fact that anyone who wants Runepriest or Shaman powers kinda has to take the corresponding full point feature which means giving up Battle Cleric's Lore.
EDIT: not sure it's "OP" per se, but a leader having access to so much minor action healing per encounter drastically changes the way a DM builds encounters and alters the value of many different powers and feats. Durable in particular becomes near-mandatory for all parties with such a Leader.

- Font of Life is a small effect but powerful for all Defenders. Seems like a must-pick especially at half a point. Swordmage Aegis may also be too strong for a half point but is saved by plate proficiency being quite expensive.

- In general the incentive to make Dex or Wis your primary is really high since one can always use Melee Training and Born Under a Bad Sign to cover for low Strength or Con (not a feature problem, but an issue to consider).

- EDIT: another issue is that CharOp wise, accuracy boosts are always worth more than damage boosts. As a result I think Prime Shot and possibly Rogue Weapon Talent are undercosted while Beastmaster Ranger and Rage Strike are overcosted.

JBPuffin
2015-11-30, 05:47 PM
I'd have to spend a lot of time with my books, but initially my major concerns are...

- Healer's Lore is a half, but is Battle Cleric's Lore? If so that seems too strong and a no-brainer for basically all leaders. It should be a full point, or be banned.

- two healer powers seems mighty strong and is saved from being the default by the fact that anyone who wants Runepriest or Shaman powers kinda has to take the corresponding full point feature which means giving up Battle Cleric's Lore.
EDIT: not sure it's "OP" per se, but a leader having access to so much minor action healing per encounter drastically changes the way a DM builds encounters and alters the value of many different powers and feats. Durable in particular becomes near-mandatory for all parties with such a Leader.

- Font of Life is a small effect but powerful for all Defenders. Seems like a must-pick especially at half a point. Swordmage Aegis may also be too strong for a half point but is saved by plate proficiency being quite expensive.

- In general the incentive to make Dex or Wis your primary is really high since one can always use Melee Training and Born Under a Bad Sign to cover for low Strength or Con (not a feature problem, but an issue to consider).

- EDIT: another issue is that CharOp wise, accuracy boosts are always worth more than damage boosts. As a result I think Prime Shot and possibly Rogue Weapon Talent are undercosted while Beastmaster Ranger and Rage Strike are overcosted.

Yeah, I think I might need to cave in and make features a more point-buy affair. It'll be more complex, but my friends and I at least could handle such a thing. Any suggestions on the lowest number of points this system will be balanced at (by this I mean the highest costing feature)?

LibraryOgre
2015-11-30, 05:51 PM
Initial thought on this... why shouldn't I choose my prime attribute as Constitution, with my secondary as Intelligence? Con will give me lots of HP, Int will give me bonus skills and, hey, needing those two improves my classes!

JBPuffin
2015-11-30, 09:14 PM
Initial thought on this... why shouldn't I choose my prime attribute as Constitution, with my secondary as Intelligence? Con will give me lots of HP, Int will give me bonus skills and, hey, needing those two improves my classes!

4e good sir (it's even tagged); Int doesn't give extra skills, unless there's a feat somewhere...but I'm pretty sure that's a no. You're right about Con, and it's something I encourage for the defender; the others will want other stuff so your party doesn't suck at all the skills ever. Now Wisdom on the other hand...

Bruno Carvalho
2015-12-01, 09:22 AM
I think a good point to discuss is simply:

"What do you want to do with it?"

And that is linked to the concept of classes in a roleplaying game. Classes are used for two reasons: 1) Niche Protection; and 2) Reducing the complexity. Lets talk a little about both.



Niche Protection ensures that each class will have a distinct "job" to do. It is similar to the classification of "Defender, Leader, Striker, Controller" you already keep. However, even among the same "job", lets say a Leader for example, each class remains with its own niche. A Cleric is a great healer, while the Bard is a quasi-controller, and a Warlord is very offensive.

To get rid of the classes would open all niches to all characters, and that *might* lead to both uber-optimized characters AND the jack-of-all-trades dilemma: one who could do anything, yet suck at everything.

In this way, the Jack-of-all-trades dilemma plagues the Hybrid character presented in PHB III: they got so many restrictions on that class to prevent uber-optimized characters that is very hard to create a Hybrid (save for some very specific builds) that don't suck.

So, with niche protection removal, you may create avenues for either creating dangerously optimized characters and, in the same time, plant many "noobtraps" as one could get powers and traits who simply will bring their efficiency down.


A late disclaimer: Everything I'm talking here (character efficiency, optimization) must be weighted toward the combat system. D&D 4e retains D&D's focus on combat, but most class features deal exclusively on that, while most non-combat applications come from skills, and few class features deals with them.






Class serves as options limitators for a reason. Dealing with a large number of options can create "analysis paralysis" and make the character creation and advancement a chore. The huge number of powers and feats avaiable to each classless character may confound the player and increase the "noobtrap" problem.

Remember that each moving part on a system increases exponentially its complexity, but not always increases it depth. It is depth (the amount of relevant strategical and tactical options
avaiable) you should aim for, not simply complexity (as increasing the options do not means all options added are relevant)

JBPuffin
2015-12-01, 09:03 PM
I think a good point to discuss is simply:

"What do you want to do with it?"

And that is linked to the concept of classes in a roleplaying game. Classes are used for two reasons: 1) Niche Protection; and 2) Reducing the complexity. Lets talk a little about both.



Niche Protection ensures that each class will have a distinct "job" to do. It is similar to the classification of "Defender, Leader, Striker, Controller" you already keep. However, even among the same "job", lets say a Leader for example, each class remains with its own niche. A Cleric is a great healer, while the Bard is a quasi-controller, and a Warlord is very offensive.

To get rid of the classes would open all niches to all characters, and that *might* lead to both uber-optimized characters AND the jack-of-all-trades dilemma: one who could do anything, yet suck at everything.

In this way, the Jack-of-all-trades dilemma plagues the Hybrid character presented in PHB III: they got so many restrictions on that class to prevent uber-optimized characters that is very hard to create a Hybrid (save for some very specific builds) that don't suck.

So, with niche protection removal, you may create avenues for either creating dangerously optimized characters and, in the same time, plant many "noobtraps" as one could get powers and traits who simply will bring their efficiency down.


A late disclaimer: Everything I'm talking here (character efficiency, optimization) must be weighted toward the combat system. D&D 4e retains D&D's focus on combat, but most class features deal exclusively on that, while most non-combat applications come from skills, and few class features deals with them.






Class serves as options limitators for a reason. Dealing with a large number of options can create "analysis paralysis" and make the character creation and advancement a chore. The huge number of powers and feats avaiable to each classless character may confound the player and increase the "noobtrap" problem.

Remember that each moving part on a system increases exponentially its complexity, but not always increases it depth. It is depth (the amount of relevant strategical and tactical options
avaiable) you should aim for, not simply complexity (as increasing the options do not means all options added are relevant)



I want to free up the power model from the class system. Removing roles entirely is insane - characters need some niche, after all, really both in and out of combat - and it's too much work in all honesty to build a classless 4e clone from the ground up, but there are some concepts that don't fit the class system perfectly. Making those easier to build with fewer sacrifices would be nice. Since the group's other DM and I are both fluent with the system, we can help players with making choices and simplifying them some, and we certainly would put in the time and effort to make that happen. Unfortunately, I just don't know enough about it to ensure there's not a glitch somewhere in this little program - hence, putting it before hopefully sharper sets of eyes. There was another guy who did this on the Wizards forums, but I'm pretty sure it's lost to the void now.