Estimating CR on an Great Wyrm Skeletal Champion Dragon [PF]

[Susano-wo]

Ok, so my wife is the DM, but she has be assist with some book keeping tasks, including figuring out what the CR is on this critter that we players have awakened (sort of, long story:smallamused:). From its size (Gargantuan), and that its a Black Dragon, that puts it as Great Wyrm age, which means it has 26HD. according to the skeleton template chart (and extrapolating for skeletons with more than 20HD), this puts it at CR 10, and Skeltal Champion makes it CR 11.

Does this seem accurate? How much should I take into account its Draconic attack routine VS a humanoid skeleton of the same number of HD?

[Seto]

I know this is Pathfinder, but if you've got access to 3.5's Draconomicon and apply the Skeletal Dragon, it might help you gauge the CR. It's basically a skeleton, but it retains STR, DEX and CHA, and its CR is base dragon's CR x 1,5. (The example of a Mature Adult Skeletal Black Dragon is given, and it's CR 7).

[Susano-wo]

Oh, we have that book--I'll definitely look into it. thanks !:smallbiggrin:

Edit: Though looking at it again, that would probably be too powerful, since the normal CR for a dragon of this size would be 32.:smalleek:

We are level 11.:smallannoyed:

[TheOneHawk]

CR 32 vs level 11 party? Let's look that up in the DMG for a difficulty level. Hrm... Instant evaporation of entire party, no save.

Sounds like a fun fight, you should do it!

[the_david]

Yeah, the CR thing can't be right. It should be somewhat weaker than a regular dragon of its kind as it loses base attack bonus, gains bad fortitude and reflex and has less natural armor. It doesn't lose most of its abilities though. I'd advice you to use the monster creation rules in the bestiary to guesstimate its CR.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary/monsterCreation.html
Alternatively, Pathfinder Unchained has rules for making simple monsters that allow you to just pick a CR and work from there.

[Seto]

Oh, we have that book--I'll definitely look into it. thanks !:smallbiggrin:

Edit: Though looking at it again, that would probably be too powerful, since the normal CR for a dragon of this size would be 32.:smalleek:

We are level 11.:smallannoyed:

Oh, I made a mistake (nothing good happens when you post after 2 A.M. ...). It's CR x 0,5, not x1,5. So a Pathfinder Great Wyrm Black Dragon with the Skeletal Dragon template would be.... CR 19/2 = between 9 and 10.

[Novawurmson]

See how some of its stats match up on this table (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/monster-creation). So, for example, its full attack routine will do approximately:

bite 4d6+19+ 2 claws (2d8+13), 2 wings (2d6+6), tail slap 2d8+19

That's 6d6+4d8+76=21+18+76=115 damage on average (disregarding things like the skeletal champion's bonus to Str). I would strongly suggest treating it more like a CR ~19 encounter unless the party is capable of handling ~115 damage per round. Those attacks will also be at around +32 to hit for primary attacks and +27 to hit for secondary attacks - more evidence that this should be treated like a CR 19ish encounter unless the party's AC is high enough to handle something like that.

[Susano-wo]

Thanks for all the help, guys. I'll take a look at all that and come up with some appropriate stats. (I should have thought of the build a monster from unchained--I have that book, and have been intrigued by it. because it technically wasn't custom, I didn't even think about it:smallbiggrin:)