Wish - the end game breaker.

[Nibbens]

So, my players were discussing hypotheticals yesterday on how to deal with a lich that is giving them a lot of problems in game (She ain't no joke). Eventually the idea popped up, mostly as a joke:

"We should just wish for her and her phylactery to appear before us while we're on the celestial plane."

I'm usually a permissive DM and like creative solutions. While "The wish spell only brings her but not her phylactery" is a perfectly legal response here, (due to the partial fulfillment clause), as is "It brings neither of them" (Because of the reverse intentions clause), I'm not particularly fond of such a cop out.

What would your response be in this situation?

[Florian]

As Wish mostly duplicates a spell of 8th or 7th levels or lower, and that stuff is way outside the power of most spells, well, welcome, simulacrum of a lich

[Snowbluff]

As Wish mostly duplicates a spell of 8th or 7th levels or lower, and that stuff is way outside the power of most spells, well, welcome, simulacrum of a lich

This. The simulacrum would know the location.

[khadgar567]

This. The simulacrum would know the location.

sorry but hello forceful teleport on positive plane the moment simulcarum appears pcs have first hand knowledge on lich( despite being limited) but hey they know the idiot first hand so teleport to liches location and roll the initiative

[ericgrau]

Teleport object is a 7th level spell and requires that you have the object. Discern location is an 8th level spell which is blocked by mind blank and requires that you must have touched the object at least once. So this effect is beyond the power of an 8th level spell and what a wish could do.

The only spells I could quickly find that could get an object to you or you to an object when you haven't seen it before are legend lore and vision, which is based on legend lore. The spell gives vague clues about the object that will help the player learn more about it. Once they learn detailed information about it another casting gives its location.

So give the players clues on how to learn about the phylactery. What object it is, its history, etc. Once they get more detailed intel they can wish again to find out where it is (or use that info to hunt it down without magic). Once they find it and touch another wish would let them find it at any time in the future. If they find it, touch it and tag it with some object or mark and the lich never removes it, I'd let them teleport it to themselves at any time with a wish.

[avr]

That sounds a lot like gate, a 9th level spell which wish can't reliably duplicate. Possibly 2 castings of gate. Giving the wisher simulacrum instead as suggested seems a reasonable compromise.

[Snowbluff]

sorry but hello forceful teleport on positive plane the moment simulcarum appears pcs have first hand knowledge on lich( despite being limited) but hey they know the idiot first hand so teleport to liches location and roll the initiative

Uh, would that get rid of the lich get a will save (the strong save on casters)? And nothing would keep it from teleporting itself out. And nothing would keep it from rejuvenating itself from the phylactery.

[Aharon]

At least for the lich, that's perfectly legal, using one of the safe applications - Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.

Once they have the lich, they just have to defeat him to get him to tell them the location of the phylactery.
The near-TO solution Tippy sometimes mentions is placing them on a plane with extremely slow time, so that when a round is over for the lich and he can use his own wish to be transported back, millenia or even millions of years have passed.

[Psyren]

So, my players were discussing hypotheticals yesterday on how to deal with a lich that is giving them a lot of problems in game (She ain't no joke). Eventually the idea popped up, mostly as a joke:

"We should just wish for her and her phylactery to appear before us while we're on the celestial plane."

I'm usually a permissive DM and like creative solutions. While "The wish spell only brings her but not her phylactery" is a perfectly legal response here, (due to the partial fulfillment clause), as is "It brings neither of them" (Because of the reverse intentions clause), I'm not particularly fond of such a cop out.

What would your response be in this situation?

By RAW they could try to summon the lich (who would get a will save AND SR, so this is likely to fail if they are going after the boss.) But they can't get the phylactery that way, that is where their Wish would potentially go too far.

But if their strategy feels too easy to you, yet you want to do something for them, be creative; remember that Wish doesn't have to be an all-at-once deal. Game Mastery Guide, "Deferred Results":


Rather than denying a particularly powerful wish, such as for the throne of a kingdom, the wish can be granted over an extended period. The wish subtly reshapes reality, guiding the wisher through seeming coincidence, good fortune, and the timely appearance of helpful NPCs. Success is not assured unless the PC takes advantage of her opportunities.

In other words, you can simply respond "Your Wish has been granted."(Or if they cast it themselves, something more subtle, like "As you finish speaking, you feel a resonance in the aether, as though the universe has acknowledged your request.") But then nothing seems to happen (neither the lich nor her phylactery appear), and the PCs eventually go back to their base of operations to make other plans.

Instead of granting their wish the conventional way they'd expect, you've instead set up a series of coincidences that will lead to that outcome, but only if the players follow the breadcrumbs properly. A disgruntled or fearful associate of the lich may contact the PCs with a desperately scribbled note, or they may come across the lich's former mentor or a powerful rival. One or all of them may experience a vision in their sleep that night that reveals some person or item that the lich holds particularly dear, or possibly the location of said phylactery. Over the course of multiple sessions, the PCs can get a hold of it, or some other trap, with the Wish intervening to grant impossibly good luck/timing or keeping the lich's awareness focused elsewhere. Eventually, the players would get the big showdown in Celestia that they wished for, but only if they performed all the steps properly. Mistakes along the way might lead to the lich showing up with a demonic army in tow, or just the lich and not the phylactery, or the battlefield might be Nirvana or even Hell instead of Celestia etc.

The point is that you have a lot of leeway to let their actions matter without cutting your campaign off at the knees.

[nedz]

Even assuming it works there is nothing to stop the Lich using one also.
I wish we were all transported to the Negative material plane.
Sure the party all get saves, but one might fail.

Cue: the parties next wish (They do have more than one, yes ?)

This is called a wish war and they can be hilarious.

[Nibbens]

Wow, thanks for the responses guys! My players are mostly just spitballing ideas - they don't often get to do high level games so now that they have power, they're thinking through all their options. lol.

Nevertheless, I try to be prepared for anything, and fresh ideas always help.


Even assuming it works there is nothing to stop the Lich using one also.
I wish we were all transported to the Negative material plane.
Sure the party all get saves, but one might fail.

I like this! Definitely adding this to the idea pool. lol.


Deferred Results

This is a good one to know about. I wasn't previously aware of this. Good call!


legend lore and vision

While incredibly good and underused IMO my party has actually been throwing around the Vision spells to get more and more knowledge about the BBEG (Luckily I had prepared for this some time ago - resulting in a hilarious interpenetration at the time - but that's a tangent for another thread). While I've no problem with the vision spell - it's already been such a powerful (and unique) info gathering tool at the players disposal, I'd rather not "use the same trick twice," if you get what I mean. Thanks tho!


simulacrum

Strangely enough, this is a possibility that I hadn't thought of. Reading now...
Truthfully, other than Hubris, I can't think of any reason why the Lich wouldn't have a number of Simulacrums to help with the control of undead, etc, and to spread more havoc. I don't think the PCs have wrapped their minds around the fact that they can be in multiple places at one time too. lol. This could be a good shock/wakeup call to them. lol.

This deserves some thinking about. Thanks!

[BWR]

Unless players specifically say they are emulating a specific lower-level spell, I don't use that version of the wish.
Other than that, I'm kind of old school wish and say you can try for anything but be prepared for the unexpected. Try Tippy-like shenanigans with loops or wish-traps and you should be ready to have it fail spectacularly. In general, if the Wish serves to move the story along without automatically invalidating important issues, I usually let it go through without a hitch.
In this case, since the lich is not necessarily rendered helpless as a result of the actual wish, I'd probably let it go through (though the lich may very well have spell resistance, contingencies or other counters or mitigation effects ready or in place, like already having used a Wish in advance to counter the next Wish used against her).

[Sacrieur]

This is why I've removed wish and variants out of my games.

[Endarire]

What force is granting this wish? That may make a major difference in fulfillment.

[Psyren]

What force is granting this wish? That may make a major difference in fulfillment.

Indeed, Game Mastery Guide mentions that too:


Types of Wishes: One of the first boundaries to set is whether or not all wishes are created equal, and have similar constraints. Treating all wishes the same has the virtues of consistency and simplicity, and helps keep your game under control. Having a hierarchy of wishes gives fodder for the story in your game, letting PCs alter their local reality with their wishes, but leaving the option of seeking out higher powers to grant the wishes spoken of in legends. A suggested hierarchy is wishes from spells or magic items, followed by miracle, wishes granted by artifacts and relics, wishes granted by powerful outsiders like the efreet and djinn, and finally those wishes bestowed directly by gods and other entities beyond mortal ken.

It then mentions that evil outsiders are the most likely to twist wishes, and gives rough examples of what makes a good wish and a bad wish.

[nedz]

What force is granting this wish? That may make a major difference in fulfillment.

That's the 2E rule — which I could explain — but it's not a thing in 3.5 by RAW. Nothing to stop a DM running with the old rules, but the players ought to know upfront.

[BWR]

That's the 2E rule — which I could explain — but it's not a thing in 3.5 by RAW. Nothing to stop a DM running with the old rules, but the players ought to know upfront.

This is PF and Psyren's quote was from a PF source.

[Spore]

What force is granting this wish? That may make a major difference in fulfillment.

The way the spells Miracle and Wish are differentiated it makes me feel like the Wizard creates the effect out of the force that allows them to do all other arcane stuff (be it Mystra's weave or any other magical network) while clerics plead their patron god for it.

Sure, wish is one of the most powerful arcane effects one can create but that doesn't mean a greater power has to be behind it. Maybe the wizard is just that good. I however like the addition of some d20 roll to determine how good the character can word and shape their wish. For simplicity's sake I'd go for a Concentration check (d20 + CL + Int mod) with a varying bonus determined by the DM depending how simple or complicated the wish is.

[Nibbens]

What force is granting this wish? That may make a major difference in fulfillment.

The simple answer to this is "themselves." The party Wizard and Sorcerer have access to Wish, and the Party Cleric has access to Miracle. The only player who doesn't have access to the dern thing is the Pally. lol.


It then mentions that evil outsiders are the most likely to twist wishes, and gives rough examples of what makes a good wish and a bad wish.

Must read now. lol.