Pathfinder: Necromancers zombies and liches oh my

[arixe]

So i need some advice on the undead. First what classes make good necromancers in a war setting. Two what undead would make good noble casts like litches and vampires. Three good spells that mask or lower the effect of these weaknesses. Besides desecrate and such. Finally im having difficulty coming up with a good rank stucture for both sides.

[noob]

Wizard is perfectly right thanks to simulacrum for having massive amounts of wizards to control the undead.

[Psyren]

In Pathfinder, your best bets for the "undead creator" sort of necromancer are going to be Oracles and Clerics, followed by Wizards, Arcanists and Sorcerers. Gravewalker Witch can also do a little necromancy.

Ghost is going to be your most powerful form of intelligent undead but they tend to be tied to a location. Liches and Vampires are staples but there are a lot of choices out there, like Ghouls of Leng.

[arixe]

@noob What pathfinder books are these in? And those stats do sound like a good general arch mage feel

[Psyren]

What pathfinder books are these in? And those stats do sound like a good general arch mage feel

If you're speaking to noob, they aren't - dread necro is 3.5

[noob]

If you're speaking to noob, they aren't - dread necro is 3.5

Yes I made an horrible error.
But it can be very easily updated to pathfinder and it will be way more balanced than a wizard.
You will not see a dread necromancer say to you "Thanks to the 50 balors I gated as well as teleport you can not defeat me"

[arixe]

I do like the undead lord as far as clerics they are way to powerful at the lower levels. Im not a big fan of clerics. Im surprised the wizard has no necro archetype. Ghosts are well a good mid boss but as a general i doubt ill make one.

[arixe]

@noob i cant even. I understand 3.5 is very exploitable but i usally let players police them them selves. But i remember quite a few who exploit "glitches" lol

[noob]

The wizard gating 50 balors is perfectly valid in pathfinder since they have the spell gate(Ask your balor to gate another balor you see it is not forbidden because it is conjuration calling).
And teleportation even if limited in range still is awesome for fleeing.
Then they can create simulacrum.
All those wizard stuff I spoke off is 100% base pathfinder manuals.
Overall for having a crazily powerful wizard in PF you do not need to think a lot.
PF third party White Necromancer can do necromancy without being evil.

[Psyren]

Balors don't have gate (you're thinking Solars) and their summon ability was nerfed to where they can't summon another balor, whatever they summon has to be CR 19 or lower, plus a summoned demon can't use its own summon ability anyway so at most you'd end up with 2, not 50. Simulacrum meanwhile is subject to GM adjudication.

All of this is moot anyway, the guy wants to build a necromancer, not a chain-gating conjurer.

[noob]

I forgot they removed spellcasting from balors and pit fiend.
Gate is calling and not summoning and so gated stuff can gate stuff(if they have the power).
Also you could gate a wizard of your level(The restriction is "extraplanar")
In the end the interest is that with a lot of wizards you can control a lot of undead.

[arixe]

Negative energy beings are also a possibility lol even if they are ridiculous i mean a giant undead shark lol

[noob]

Do you want negative energy undead sharkelemental?(that is the next step after giant undead sharks)

[arixe]

I think its called a night tide? Maybe lol its been a while sense ive looked at them but they are super powerful

[Florian]

@arixe:

If you want an undead "social ladder" consider some differences:
- Self-created undead like liches
- Spawned undead ranging from vampires to ghouls
- Death-triggered undead like allips
- Created undead, from zombies to skelletal champions

[arixe]

@Florian I like that but are there any other undead in the self made tier? Because my noble / leader teir would include emancipated vampires and such im avoiding mummies for obvious reasons.

[Florian]

@Florian I like that but are there any other undead in the self made tier? Because my noble / leader teir would include emancipated vampires and such im avoiding mummies for obvious reasons.

That's a difficult question.
Liches are easy to classify, as there is a clear cut path to attain that goal.
There're other self-created undead where we're not given the information on how exactly they achieved their goal, for example the undead druids encountered on the Worldwound AP.
With other, like the Graveknight, we lnow it is an attainable goal, but again, we don't exactly know how.
Then there the borderline cases when the person in question was never alive at all, like with the india-styles vampire.

[arixe]

Interesting. Ill have to take that into consideration. Could lead to some interesting cast issues. Lol i imagine undead politics would be compelx.

[Aldrakan]

@Florian I like that but are there any other undead in the self made tier? Because my noble / leader teir would include emancipated vampires and such im avoiding mummies for obvious reasons.

Surprisingly rare, though presumably some ghosts could qualify as "self-made", as could a Worm That Walks - both of these are more a matter of the willpower or circumstance than a deliberate transformation.

Edit: Oops, a worm that walks is also not technically undead.

Probably worth noting that skeletal champions and juju zombies retain class levels and if made through Create Undead (some Golarion-specific book adds this option) the spell gives no direct control over them. Their power depends on the person they were in life, which could distort where they end up in an undead hierarchy. (Presumably they don't retain the soul of the person, but they're otherwise basically a cut-price lich.)

Oh the sharklike undead thing is a nightwave, the strongest kind of nightshade, a series of intelligent "undead" where it's unclear if they were ever alive in the first place. All of them make a nice accompaniment to more conventional undead.

[arixe]

@Aldraken thank you i looked up nightshade and they are crazy good upper hierarchy undead with their ability to emenate a aura of desecration. As for ghosts i do think they make a very very powerful undead even more so then liches at higher hd. Idk ghosts just seem like a undead that are afixed to a place person or object thus making it difficult for them to have a political/military role

[Florian]

@Aldraken thank you i looked up nightshade and they are crazy good upper hierarchy undead with their ability to emenate a aura of desecration. As for ghosts i do think they make a very very powerful undead even more so then liches at higher hd. Idk ghosts just seem like a undead that are afixed to a place person or object thus making it difficult for them to have a political/military role

I would be careful with death-triggered undead like ghosts.
They cam seem to be clear amd reasonable, but actually, they aren't, as they are created by massive trauma.

[Psyren]

@Aldraken thank you i looked up nightshade and they are crazy good upper hierarchy undead with their ability to emenate a aura of desecration. As for ghosts i do think they make a very very powerful undead even more so then liches at higher hd. Idk ghosts just seem like a undead that are afixed to a place person or object thus making it difficult for them to have a political/military role

FYI, there is a ghost ruling an entire nation in Golarion, so they most certainly can have political roles. His purpose is to prove that his rival, who vanished without a trace centuries ago, is truly dead, which no one has been able to do. So he sticks around running the place. He is extremely powerful, one of the strongest non-deity entities in the entire setting if not the strongest.

[arixe]

Oh... The more you know ^^ thanks ill add it to my roster

[arixe]

So new question for internet collective what are good arch type for undead and why said arch type is good and possible down sides too.


Spacifically id like good arch types that make skeletons and zombies strong and threating

[Florian]

So new question for internet collective what are good arch type for undead and why said arch type is good and possible down sides too.


Spacifically id like good arch types that make skeletons and zombies strong and threating

That would be a good job for an Occultist with the Necromancy implement.
Their undead use a bit different rules, like having 1/2 hp of the Occultist, share his BAB and use his level as basis for to hit/damage bonus and such.

[Aldrakan]

When you say archetypes do you mean skeletal champions and juju zombies with class levels and which class archetypes are best for them, or variant undead for regular skeletons and zombies? If the former I think you'd be better off just looking at what classes are better before diving into archetypes.

For the second, it depends on the purpose. Bloody skeletons can be very good if you expect to use them in fights you win, as unless the enemy is throwing around a lot of positive energy or is taking actions mid fight to sprinkle them with holy water they'll come back to life after being killed. To throw against players burning skeletons are a good basic choice.
For zombies the obvious choice is the fast zombie. Oh no, it loses DR 5 slashing! In exchange for not being staggered so it can make full attacks, gets an extra attack when it does, and gets +2 Dex.
The main way to get more powerful skeletons and zombies is of course just to use corpses with better HD, more natural attacks, and higher Strength.

As for class archetypes, well anything that switches them to using Char, as it's effectively Con.
Eldritch Scion magus for example. The downside is before 8th level they have to burn through their arcane pool points to use spell combat, though if you're looking at an enemy for the players to fight this lack of longevity is less of a concern.
The gravewalker witch archetype has some neat tricks, including increasing the turn resistance of nearby undead.
Not an archetype, but a Juju mystery oracle can get the Spirit Vessels revelation to control 6 hd/level of undead and any they create will have max HP.

[ElderLucian]

For vampires I would take a look at DSP's Lords of the Night book.