Jedi v.s Avatarverse Benders

[ArlEammon]

The Jedi Force Users v.s Elemental Benders. . . I'm curious as to what, in your opinion is most useful/best, and why? How powerful, for example, would a Sith like Darth Sidious be against Ozai? This isn't a specific verse though, it's based on power levels.

[Yora]

Jedi powers seem to be much more versatile. But from what's seen in the movies their overall power level seems to be considerably lower. Airbenders are probably just as fast and agile when it comes to dodging thing. Their weak telepathic powers are probably the biggest advantage the Jedi have. But when it comes to shoting fire and lightning, firebenders seems to very much outclass the sith. And as long as they are dealing with rock or water, earth and water benders have no competition from Jedi either.

Jedi mind control powers seem to be very subtle and I don't think could be used to mind control any experienced bender. They all have way too much mental discipline. (Even the crazy ones).

Jedi have the advantage of being allrounders, but in any specific discipline other than telepathy, I don't see them getting anywhere close to benders.

[Reddish Mage]

Seriously? Just in the movies Yoda could lift a starfighter, boulders would not be a problem. The sustained lightning attack of the Emperor is a lot more than anything we ever seen from a fire bender, and that includes during Souzin's comet. If we bring in the Expanded Universe Legends, Jedi and Sith have used the force to bring down stardestroyers, shift planets out of orbits, and create world-destroying force storms.

Also are we bringing in the weapons Jedi wield? Because lightsabers and durasteel starfighters are unlikely to be bendable even by the best metal benders, while they outclass anything benders have.

It isn't even close.

[GolemsVoice]

Yoda and the emperor are among the most powerful Jedis of their generation, though. I don't think they are a good standard for the average Jedi.

[The Fury]

Also are we bringing in the weapons Jedi wield? Because lightsabers and durasteel starfighters are unlikely to be bendable even by the best metal benders, while they outclass anything benders have.



I'm not especially well-versed in Star Wars stuff, though I remember Spoony mentioning that while Jedi and Sith can deflect projectiles with their lightsabers, they can't do anything about a flamethrower. Or gouts of flame from a Firebender.

As for Metalbending, it's admittedly not super-clear as to what makes a metal un-Bendable and the rules given break down pretty rapidly if you analyze them too much, that said the only metal we know Metalbending doesn't work on is platinum. So I'd hazard that Metalbenders actually could bend durasteel, which I guess is also what the casing on a lightsaber is made out of?

[The Glyphstone]

Depends on if platinum is just too hard to Bend, or if it has some sort of mystical/mythical significance that makes it resistant to being Bent. But considering platinum is only slightly harder than iron, it must be the latter. Assuming the rules have any consistency, which apparently they don't. The avatar wiki just says 'highly purified' metals cannot be Bent.

[Reddish Mage]

I'm not especially well-versed in Star Wars stuff, though I remember Spoony mentioning that while Jedi and Sith can deflect projectiles with their lightsabers, they can't do anything about a flamethrower. Or gouts of flame from a Firebender.

As for Metalbending, it's admittedly not super-clear as to what makes a metal un-Bendable and the rules given break down pretty rapidly if you analyze them too much, that said the only metal we know Metalbending doesn't work on is platinum. So I'd hazard that Metalbenders actually could bend durasteel, which I guess is also what the casing on a lightsaber is made out of?

I don't recall who Spoony is, but I think you are referring to an internet commentator.

Darth Vader absorbs Han's blaster fire in Episode V, so I don't think flames shouldn't be a problem.

As far as "average" or "typical" Jedi. We haven't actually seen this thing you are speculating about from the movies. The novels, RPGs, cartoons, and video games all tend towards giving Jedi greater powers. For example, Darth Maul survives getting cut in two. Even the Prequels shows a greater level of Jedi powers then the original, with Anakin surviving in the middle of a lava pit quite awhile even after losing his legs and catching fire (the Palpatine didn't show up instantly you know), Yoda can fly, and I seem to recall Count Dooku was quite adept at lightning too, and Obi-Wan was quite adept at tossing around General Grievous.

And I believe both the Clone Wars Cartoons and the New "Rebels" cartoon is cannon.

[Forum Explorer]

Jedi have the advantage big time. Their light sabers can deflect the boulders, ice, and lightning, and they are quick enough to avoid most of the rest. They can use force push/pull to disrupt the stance of the benders, and force leap to get close. Their precog abilities will also make it easy to dodge their opponents attacks. And once they get close, it's an instant kill.

The average jedi would certainly lose against someone like Aang or Troph. But that's average against exceptional. An equivalently exceptional Jedi is where I'd put my money on.

[Ramza00]

Way too many things we do not know to make any real arguement where one side is better than another, or its a tie, or its situational on the enviroment and what is the level of the benders/jedi fighting each other.

I am not trying to kill catgirls :smallyuk: (at the thought of getting too much science in my fantasy system and loosing the fun and mystery.)

I am just trying to get the DM/Original poster to explain what transparency are between the interactions of 1 world's magic with the other world's form of magic.

What is the transparency with the Force and Bending

What interactions do we have with force and bending (which is chi based) in this crossover universe?
I ask for both universes use a form of "eastern" philosophy for their forms of magic. I would qualify both forms of magic as some form of chi manipulation. All objects even inorganic non living objects have chi, but living objects especially sentient objects can learn to manipulate their own chi and the universe chi and thus cause change in the chi of other things

Taking this from wookipeida (once again yuk, I hate too much nerdrage and wikis on how magic works)


The principles of the Force resonate with those of some real-world religions, including the Shinto religion of Japan, Buddhism, Taoism, and certain Celtic druidic concepts. The Force also bears a close similarity to the Chinese notion of qigong, or "chi," and the splitting of the Force into light side and dark sides echoes the concept of yin and yang in Eastern philosophy (though this is not a perfect translation, as the dark side is considered a force of evil by the Jedi, and this moral duality is not the same as the Eastern concept). Along with the concepts of yin and yang, the concept of a ubiquitous Force parallels the real-world concept of a "Tao" or "way," which is said to flow everywhere in the universe. The concept of the Force also borrows heavily from Hindu theology, which also expresses a belief in a unifying Brahman energy that composes and is a composite of the Universe (and by extension, God), and can be used for either good or bad. In fact, this is particularly similar to the concept of the Potentium and the Unifying Force in that while the power can be perverted for evil, it ultimately leads only to a conclusion that is good.


Questions about the Jedi powers

What are the list of jedi powers? Only movies? Only Prequels? How about EU (now Star War Legends if I understand the term)?
What mind powers do the Jedi have to influence the benders? What is the normal range? Do you need a specific trigger like them seeing specific movements or sounds? Can manipulating your own chi break this influence/control and in effect give more talented benders a way to disrupt suggestion, charm, and domination?

Questions about bending

What are the bending environments? 1 Location or many? Individual based bending, or can your team work together and have greater effects due to cumulative output like you see in the avatar universe.
How do lightsabers work? (Please correct me if I get the details slightly incorrect) In the star war universe lighstabers are pure plasma (a form of gas where the electrons are not bound to orbit atoms, aka a form of chemical instability) and this plasma is contained in a magnetic field. The magnetic field provides perfect order preventing the chaos of the plasma from affecting things outside the field. This causes the blade itself to emit no heat but if a person moves the hit close enough that the blade's magnetic field is now disrupted and intersecting material then the plasma's fast moving electrons are now able to destabilize physical matter such as earth, water, air, etc. Now once the blade leaves the material it destabilizes the state of change transition stops and the thing does not catch on fire due to the magnetic field instantly restabalizing the wound and cauterizing the body/matter. The matter tries to "return to the rules of order, similar to how in Fullmetal Alchemist once a transistion is done the matter will now interact under normal rules of physics (this is the part of what causes rebound, but not the entire set of circumstances that causes rebound.) Now the lightsaber blade itself has no mass, but when you interesect solid or liquid matter you are now having the opposite effect of newton's 2nd law and most provide enough force and torque via the hilt to finish the cut or the matter since you must disrupt the magnetic field of which all atoms generate with the magnetic field of the lightsaber. If you do not provide enough force to disrupt the lightsaber's blade magnetic field you are unable to cut anything and the blade stops with solid and liquid matter, but with matter of the state of being of air you just move those air molecules around the blade similar to how a wing moves air above and below the wing when an external force (aka the hilt and the user) pushes the wing through the air.
Why am I asking these science questions about a fantasy universe and a scientific fantasy universe? Because firebending is the manipulation of plasma with your chi!!! So can you maniuplate the plasma that is contained in the lightsaber or does the magnetic field stop it, or resist it (aka you need enough skill or chi to disrupt the magnetic field of the blade). I am asking this for if a firebender can manipulate the plasma in the lightsaber magnetic field he can short circuit lightsabers causing the plasma to damage the hilt and destroy the weapon. The firebender could also enhance his bending for he has a continuous fire source once a single jedi is slain. He does not have to use his own chi to start a plasma chain reaction, instead he must merely direct the already existing plasma to interact with other matter and to start the buring fire (aka directing the effects of the fire with his own chi). Depending on the details of how sozin's comet actually worked (since its not really clear on how it worked, is it manipulating plasma via the comet entering the atmosphere and generating a tail and this reverberates in the nearby world, or is it just enhancing chi of the planet and adding more "fire style" chi to the existing planet) a lightsaber may effectively be a miniature version of sozin's comet, it being as good if not more powerful than sozin's comet. Now when plasma hits material matter it can cause items to combust and burn, but the actual plasma effect is measured in fractions of a second, the destabilized matter is what most people see for that is measured from seconds to hours vs the actual agent of change which is firebending.
Can you make a ruling on how does waterbending work with lightsabers? If the water just returns to water vapor ( water stuck in an state of flux for its suspended in the air) any non novice water bender, aka the medium to talented waterbenders can just restabalize the state of matter which is water and switch it back to liquid form or ice form, thus the jedi have no effective defense for the sword just passes through yet they can restabalize the attack and cut/pierce the jedi or trap the jedi and restrict their movements.
Are earth benders just going to do traditional tactics of throwing rocks, and not do any battlefield control unless they have a formation with multiple people? Or will they control the environment similar to benders with actual names such as Toph and Kuvira?
What form of defenses if any can airbender's do with jedi and vice versa? Is telekinesis in the Jedi universe actually manipulating air, and causing air to generate a force and a vector to push stuff towards or against you? Is telekinesis instead just instilling a vector and inertia in solid or liquid matter?


I am not trying to be a pain in the ass who is driving the DM/Original Poster crazy but these are the type of stuff we need to know to guess on which of those two groups are more effective/more powerful/more useful etc.

We need to understand how one group powerset can interact with the other for effectively that is the question you are asking isn't it?

-----

On another note I love 3.5 psionics, and my belief that system makes more sense than 3.5 vancian casting and what I saw of 4.0, I have not looked into 5.0 rules for D&D.

Oh in my opinion you should always just assume transparency for the sake of simplicity between magic and psionics in D&D

[Reddish Mage]

Ramza, plasma is not just fire, and is not automatically bendable. Benders in Avatar world tend to be rather limited to certain forms of their element anyway.

There isn't an exhaustive list of Jedi powers but here is a pretty expansive list

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_power

This is why, given the EU, there is just no contest.

Even with the narrow number of works considered "official cannon" by Disney, there is enough material showing numerous Jedi able to manipulate very large and heavy objects (and people). Jedi are capable of superfast movement, superfast reflexes, seeing the future, defying gravity, and I haven't even got to the cartoons.

[Kyberwulf]

I don't think we ever really see "normal" Jedi. You usually just see named ones. Unless you count episode two, where there was that arena full of them. They seemed to die like flies though. I think "Jedi" have this one though. Most Jedi are trained for combat. Whereas most Benders are just trained to use bending, I wouldn't say for combat, but for more general practices.

You are going to have to specify either Cannon or non-cannon stuff. Either way though. Most of the Special Force powers don't count though. You need to be exceptional with the Force to be able to do them. Not all Force uses can use all Force powers, with the exact same proficiency. Same with bending.

[ArlEammon]

I don't think we ever really see "normal" Jedi. You usually just see named ones. Unless you count episode two, where there was that arena full of them. They seemed to die like flies though. I think "Jedi" have this one though. Most Jedi are trained for combat. Whereas most Benders are just trained to use bending, I wouldn't say for combat, but for more general practices.

You are going to have to specify either Cannon or non-cannon stuff. Either way though. Most of the Special Force powers don't count though. You need to be exceptional with the Force to be able to do them. Not all Force uses can use all Force powers, with the exact same proficiency. Same with bending.

Hmm. . . well, let's see, Force Lightning seems like it would be useful against water benders, lol.

[Ramza00]

Ramza, plasma is not just fire, and is not automatically bendable. Benders in Avatar world tend to be rather limited to certain forms of their element anyway.

I am in complete agreement that the things they do in the EU universe is insane. In 1991 they were having force users destroying planets on the most talented users, same year one person dominated at least several hundred people over a 1 km area without line of sight and 1995 collected individuals work as a team were throwing starships across light years instaneously. The first real EU book was 1991 with heir to the empire. But those were special people and not the average Jedi or With.

Fire is a chain reaction of microseconds or a sustained continuous change reaction of longer periods. This causes an exothermic reaction which can cause a change of a state of nature like solid to liquid, solid to gas, or to plasma,. This can also cause electrons from atom A to be so excited that the normal electron orbital area of electrons from atom A expand and it can expand so big that atom B and atom A overlap and the electrons go to the more sensical orbit determined by attraction and electrical charge. This can change the observable properties of the matter that we can see, and if not enough leads to plasma.


Now some of the properties of exothermic reactions fall under other bending like water bending or earth/magmabending but plasma and traditional exothermic reactions that lead to oxidation are fire bending base.

Maybe I am missing your point are you trying to tell me that plasma aka lightningbending and blue fire (well not technically blue fire but the invisible fire that is even hotter than blue fire which rapidly cools when it intersects with matter and then turns to blue->red->orange->yellow) is not plasma?

I may not be understanding your point?

Regardless of the physics and chemistry my intention is not a science debate but just the OP to make a decision and handwrave and better narrow the parameters of the discussion.

[Yora]

Seriously? Just in the movies Yoda could lift a starfighter, boulders would not be a problem. The sustained lightning attack of the Emperor is a lot more than anything we ever seen from a fire bender, and that includes during Souzin's comet.

No it doesn't. What do we see the Emperor do with his lightning? He is zapping Luke continuously for two or three minutes and Luke is only in such pain that he is on the ground in pain, but has no injuries and is able to walk away from it when it stops. Azula shots single zap at Aang and he's basically dead instantly. When Zuko is able to use his special power of deflecting a bolt, it still hits him as bad as Luke was from being continuously fried.

And Yoda slowly lifting an X-Wing doesn't look impressive compared to what average earthbenders are regularly throwing around. Not to speak of the actual grand masters.

From what is on the screen, there really is no competition. If you bring in such nonsense as Dark Empire or The Force Umleashed that violate what's in the movies,those would have to be compared to displays of the Avatar State.

[AvatarVecna]

No it doesn't. What do we see the Emperor do with his lightning? He is zapping Luke continuously for two or three minutes and Luke is only in such pain that he is on the ground in pain, but has no injuries and is able to walk away from it when it stops. Azula shots single zap at Aang and he's basically dead instantly. When Zuko is able to use his special power of deflecting a bolt, it still hits him as bad as Luke was from being continuously fried.

And Yoda slowly lifting an X-Wing doesn't look impressive compared to what average earthbenders are regularly throwing around. Not to speak of the actual grand masters.

From what is on the screen, there really is no competition. If you bring in such nonsense as Dark Empire or The Force Umleashed that violate what's in the movies,those would have to be compared to displays of the Avatar State.

While I totally agree that average Jedi stuff doesn't compare to average Bender stuff, I want to point out that even the Avatar State can pale in comparison to some of the ridiculous BS pulled off in the EU...or even just TFU.

[GloatingSwine]

Depends on if platinum is just too hard to Bend, or if it has some sort of mystical/mythical significance that makes it resistant to being Bent. But considering platinum is only slightly harder than iron, it must be the latter. Assuming the rules have any consistency, which apparently they don't. The avatar wiki just says 'highly purified' metals cannot be Bent.

Avatar is an early industrial world, their metals generally have high amounts of silicate impurities. The presence of those impurities is what lets an earthbender manipulate the metal. (That's actually directly shown when Toph first figures out how to do it, and is the reason that Toph specifically is the person who does, because she's Earthbender Daredevil)

[cobaltstarfire]

Jedi have the advantage big time. Their light sabers can deflect the boulders, ice, and lightning, and they are quick enough to avoid most of the rest. They can use force push/pull to disrupt the stance of the benders, and force leap to get close. Their precog abilities will also make it easy to dodge their opponents attacks. And once they get close, it's an instant kill.

The average jedi would certainly lose against someone like Aang or Troph. But that's average against exceptional. An equivalently exceptional Jedi is where I'd put my money on.

How exactly are you going to hit a boulder with a lightsaber and not end up getting hit by the two pieces that are still coming, and the burning hot slag coming off of it? What of a large torrent of water that doesn't really care that a lightsaber got in its way? Pressurized water can tear ligaments, dislocate joints, and in general just pound you into dust. Fire isn't really something you can deflect with a lightsaber either.

The high mobility a Jedi has via leaping and such isn't really much of an advantage unless they're going up against a fire bender, as the other three have been shown pretty often increasing their speed in one way or another with the help of their element.

I'm not even convinced that force pushing from an average Jedi will seriously throw a bender out of form, earth and fire benders may be susceptible if they're weaker, but if they have a good powerful stance it may take a little more than a little force push to break them. An Air or Water bender is going to go with the flow and adjust, not break down just because something pushed them around.


I think it really depends on the element and the type of Jedi in the long run if we are talking folks of equal/average skill.

[Reddish Mage]

I may not be understanding your point?

Regardless of the physics and chemistry my intention is not a science debate but just the OP to make a decision and handwrave and better narrow the parameters of the discussion.

And I'm saying that bringing in the scientific properties of lightsaber into an argument that firebenders should be able to bend it based on the fundamental nature of fire-bending is bending plasma, is standing over a catgirl and stomping all over her with metal boots while saying you arent doing anything.


what I'm not seeing is a good argument that Jedi are weaker or on equal footing. I've seen some intimation that there is such a thing as a "typical" Jedi, and that they lack all sorts of powers, but I don't know where this data on typical Jedi is coming from, and how we are supposed to know what their powers are.

Also, it's a good point that "typical" benders are not the super-martial artists we see, and many benders don't use their skills for combat ever (whereas Jedi have long served as a sort of elite police force, then as super-elite military commanders/one person commando units).

[Kyberwulf]

For most of the Bender's move sets. They have this weird little thing where they have to dance. Which gives the Jedi ample time to get out of the way what's going to happen. They have some pretty quick reflexes. I don't think Benders really have the same level of speed or reaction time. I know there where some instants where wiggle a toe or thumb or nose... worked, but those where very rare, and usually named individuals.

Aside from that, couple problems I see in most of these "Jedi" vs. Threads. In most cases, Jedi can't use the force to harm another living creature. I mean they can, but that is seen as a perversion of the force. Even force pushing is against the rules. The only time I can remember someone doing it was in the Anakin vs. Obi fight. That was Anikin doing it first, and Obi countering it. I really wish people would use Sith or fallen Jedi for these fights. They wouldn't have a problem with perverting the force, and those guys would win these fights so much easier.

The second problem I see is when they use the force to lift something heavy, it takes them out of the fight. Because the they have to concentrate on what they are doing. Sure Yoda lifted that Xwing, but it took a lot of concentrating to do so.

Also, I think there isn't any slag when a Lightsaber cuts through stuff. It's usually cut cleanly. The only time I remember it not doing that was when Qui Gon used it on the blast doors. He didn't seem to worried about the slag.

[Prime32]

Couldn't a waterbender short out most lightsabers fairly easily?

[lurkmeister]

Depends on if platinum is just too hard to Bend, or if it has some sort of mystical/mythical significance that makes it resistant to being Bent. But considering platinum is only slightly harder than iron, it must be the latter. Assuming the rules have any consistency, which apparently they don't. The avatar wiki just says 'highly purified' metals cannot be Bent.
According to Avatarverse lore, what metalbenders bend in metal is not the metal itself, but rather impurities within the metal. I'd hazard that platinum is metalbending-proof, then, because metallurgical techniques are such that there aren't enough impurities within that metal to, well, bend it.

Which raises an interesting question about if you apply a different universe's metallurgy. For example, would an extremely refined steel be bendable?

As far as the OP goes, I'd say benders. Force-wielders' main powers are telekinesis, mind control, greater athletics, and (for the Sith) lightning projection. Benders match Force-users' athletics, naturally, and their techniques are fluid enough to match Jedi and Sith move for move. But lightsabers aren't designed to deflect the types of projectiles benders would hurl, and there are some interesting contingencies that would have to be explored: lightning-bending is actually control over a plasma, which is what a lightsaber blade's made out of. It may actually be possible for a lightning bender to bend a Jedi's lightsaber blade, is what I'm getting at here.

[Maethirion]

I'd give it to the Jedi almost entirely based on the slight pre-cog they're supposed to have. The ability to know when a strike of any kind is coming, and from where is just too big an advantage.

[Tvtyrant]

Going to give this one to Benders based on numbers. There are like a few thousand jedi amongst trillions of civilians? Tatoine had one potential Jedi on it total in the first movie.

By comparison there is a bender for maybe every third person? Avatars crappiest benders could drown the Jedi in bodies.

[Kyberwulf]

A trillion Civilians? There Hardly seem to be that many. Also, they all aren't benders. At most I say there is a couple million people on Bender Planet. I think there is a very small portion of that are actual benders.

[MLai]

If the fight involves an average Jedi, with average battlefield precog, average force dash, and an average lightsaber... the fight goes to the Jedi.

Any bender short of a named prodigy who knows what to expect, will not survive a technique involving a Flash-like burst of speed followed by a swing of a vorpal blade.

[Tvtyrant]

A trillion Civilians? There Hardly seem to be that many. Also, they all aren't benders. At most I say there is a couple million people on Bender Planet. I think there is a very small portion of that are actual benders.

100% of the air bender nation, thousands at least in each of the others.

And thentrillion civilians is star wars, with a population of the old republic of 100 quadrillion funneled into a few thousand jedi.

[Seppl]

there are some interesting contingencies that would have to be explored: lightning-bending is actually control over a plasma, which is what a lightsaber blade's made out of. It may actually be possible for a lightning bender to bend a Jedi's lightsaber blade, is what I'm getting at here.According to Iroh's description of lightning bending in the episode "Bitter Work", it is a bending of electric charges (or as he puts it: positive and negative energy). The lightning is the result of the bender separating different energies and then providing release. The bender does not control the lightning directly. The lightning redirection technique he shows later in the same episode is also described as a redirection of energy rather than a bending of the lightning bolt itself.

[Forum Explorer]

How exactly are you going to hit a boulder with a lightsaber and not end up getting hit by the two pieces that are still coming, and the burning hot slag coming off of it? What of a large torrent of water that doesn't really care that a lightsaber got in its way? Pressurized water can tear ligaments, dislocate joints, and in general just pound you into dust. Fire isn't really something you can deflect with a lightsaber either.

The high mobility a Jedi has via leaping and such isn't really much of an advantage unless they're going up against a fire bender, as the other three have been shown pretty often increasing their speed in one way or another with the help of their element.

I'm not even convinced that force pushing from an average Jedi will seriously throw a bender out of form, earth and fire benders may be susceptible if they're weaker, but if they have a good powerful stance it may take a little more than a little force push to break them. An Air or Water bender is going to go with the flow and adjust, not break down just because something pushed them around.


I think it really depends on the element and the type of Jedi in the long run if we are talking folks of equal/average skill.
You don't cut them down the middle, but move and cut the part of the boulder that would hit you.

I said Ice, not water, but when have we ever seen a water bender use that much force? Admittedly I didn't watch all of avatar, but the combats I did see with water bending seemed more like hitting someone with a 'snake' of water with all the force of a really heavy whip. When they were actually trying to hurt each someone they seemed to prefer ice (or maybe that was location cause they were in the arctic, I don't know)

I don't remember them being able to maintain that speed, they could use it, sure, but only as a travel method. In combat (barring the final fight) they stayed at normal speeds.

The show does make some effort to say that the stance they are in is important. I imagine being violently flung through the air (hard enough to destroy a robot at least) would be enough to break said stance.

Thing is, ordinary people like Jet and Sokka are able to compete with and even defeat benders. Even an airbender like Aang had trouble with a group of mundane, if highly skilled archers.

Every Jedi we see is able to deflect laser beams fired from a short distance away. There are very few examples of an ordinary humans getting the best of any Jedi in a fair fight.

[Seppl]

I said Ice, not water, but when have we ever seen a water bender use that much force? Admittedly I didn't watch all of avatar, but the combats I did see with water bending seemed more like hitting someone with a 'snake' of water with all the force of a really heavy whip. When they were actually trying to hurt each someone they seemed to prefer ice (or maybe that was location cause they were in the arctic, I don't know) They use it occasionally, there are many examples of waterbenders using big gushes of water to wash people or equipment away (a nice, non-lethal move, optimal for a kids show:smallwink:). These moves seem limited by the availability of water, as a lot of times we only see Katara using what water she carries around with her. Though they do not consistently use it even when water is plenty.

I don't remember them being able to maintain that speed, they could use it, sure, but only as a travel method. In combat (barring the final fight) they stayed at normal speeds. I think that was exactly the point, cobaltstarfire wanted to make. Jedi, too, seem to use their super-jumping and super-speed mostly for positioning during a fight, not in order to actually accelerate their lightsaber swings. That is exactly what skilled benders do. Aang uses it all the time as part of his airbending style. Waterbenders surf around on water and ice they bend beneath their feet. Earthbenders give themselves a push for jumping higher. Firebenders have been known to fly on firejets but it is unclear if that can be done under normal conditions or if it is something that can only be done under a comet or by super-prodigies like Azula.
Thing is, ordinary people like Jet and Sokka are able to compete with and even defeat benders. Even an airbender like Aang had trouble with a group of mundane, if highly skilled archers. Those archers were not mundane. They may not be using the "magic" of their world but no archer in the real world could even come close to doing anything like they do. Also, if I remember correctly, Aang was not really fighting, but trying to run away while searching for frogs.


I think the biggest confusion in this discussion stems from the different skill gaps:
In Star Wars a Jedi master is more skilled than an ordinary Jedi but not by a huge margin. A layman might not even be able to tell the difference. They can mostly do the same things, being better at being a Jedi means mostly being able to do more of these things at once, and doing them on a slightly bigger scale or faster.

In Avatarverse an ordinary bender is not much different from a common soldier except he brings his own weapon. The skill gap to a master level bender is huge. A bending master compared to an ordinary bender looks like a Jedi master compared to a normal person. Which is probably the reason for this thread:smallbiggrin:

Ordinary Jedi beat ordinary benders, it is not even close. But I could totally see a bending master keeping up even with a master Jedi in terms of movement and reactions on the battlefield. Which brings us back to discussing their weapons of choice. It seems that the Jedi are bringing a knife to a gunfight. Usually they compensate by their superb skill at blocking and dodging. But, as has been pointed out, you cannot really block a wall of fire/water/stone/air coming at you. Master level benders have shown the ability to manipulate their element at a distance, they can and will attack from multiple angles at once. In the case of an earth bender you cannot even trust the ground beneath you, we have seen earthbenders sinking people into the ground or throwing them away (or most often, just toppling people, because kids show). The duel of the masters probably goes to the benders.

[Kyberwulf]

I disagree. Being a Master Jedi isn't just two more pegs up from a normal Jedi. One of the reasons it's so hard to pin down exactly how to judge the power level of a Jedi, is because every Jedi is different. There are certain things you have to be able to do to become a Padawan. Then from there you have to be learn so much more. Some people never leave that stage. Jedi Knights are a huge step up from there. Again, you need certain abilities, but this is where the power difference comes into play. Every Jedi seems to excel in certain aspect of the Force and lack abilities in other. Being a Jedi Master means you have, well, mastered certain aspect of the Force, on top of that. You need to be a Master at one of the forms of Saber combat, if not more.

The reason the power difference seems to be so negligible, and also why the Jedi are the worse people to have in a Vs. other debate. They are trained to restrain themselves, to not use the force as a tool. They can never really show the true power of the force...well not in a flashy destructive way.

I think the Force would be a better choice to have. You don't have a lot of the flash of throwing elements around. It seems to be better at getting you out of a Sticky Situation. *eat's Ice Cream* I figure if you can control yourself. Which is the reason most people who use the force for selfish means gets "corrupted". Once you lose the idea of a "light" side, and a "dark" side. You can just do what the force wants you to do, and use it to do what you want. Once you get that down, you can do so much more with the force then just be a one trick pony.

The problem with Bending is you pretty much have to chose a type. Then your stuck with that, as far as I know. Each Bending type has a Strength sure. Each one also has a weakness.

I just want to add, that since the Canon changed for Star Wars. Force Abilities have pretty much been reset. We don't have a lot to go on, on what Force users can do anymore.

[Mato]

Benders win.

The short story is watch the prequal films where the Sith let gravity do the work and Yoda gets crowning moments of achievement for simply holding stuff up. Even in the original it takes Yoda a significant amount of time to lift the X-wing and even in the no longer canon EU where moving things like small space ships out of a star there is still a large concentration delay to even moving small objects. Comparatively, with a stomp of an earthbender's foot they can send several man sized boulders up through the air several dozen feet without a second thought, and the more skilled a bender becomes the less movement is needed for any action.

And remember, for as big as those rocks are. Earthbending can be countered by any other form such as a firebender's flames are so intense they can blow a thrown bolder to pieces and a Jedi has nothing but a force shield to protect them selves from it and that only exists in the non-canon EU & games and still remains extremely limited. Even Bobba Fett's tiny gauntlet can get the job done.

But for me the biggest thing is the amount of fridge logic. Like if the force can choke someone slowly to death or shoot electrical charges that take several seconds (or even minutes) to kill, why can't they just cut off the blood supply to the brain or shoot a prolonged current of power across their heart? The answer: fridge logic.

Water benders bending the water in your blood, air benders sucking the oxygen out of your lungs, earthbenders mashing rocks together so fast it turns into magma, or even a firebender power his house with lightning and creating flame jets are all displayed usages. Ty Lee's pressure point skills becomes the default training program of terrorists, the difficulty of countering metalbending and movement around tall buildings led to the meteralspiderman police force. Avatarverse is aware of how their created material can be cleverly exploited and they followed through with it on screen.

So I'm sure you can think of some great scenarios that'd prove how great a Jedi could be, but unfortunately for you the Jedi can't and after a generation of dealing with the Jedi the Avatarverse would have commercialized the force to a point where a guy has to brag about how far ahead he can foresee the stockmarket changes just to try and get a job interview over his competition.

[Kyberwulf]

Except it takes time to bend things. Time in which the Jedi can dodge pretty easily. None of the things flying seem to be travel at instantaneous speed. Most of the other bending things you mention, can't be done by normal benders.

Also, the whole Force Choke, and Force Lightning not killing people fast enough. It's because that is what they are designed to do. Force choke and Force lightning are tools for intimidation and torture.

[Bobb]

Jedi win.


Average Jedi beats average airbender.

Master jedi beats master airbender.

Ultimate level jedi beats ultimate level Avatar.



99% of all benders can only bend one element, yes?

[Iku Rex]

Warning: Post may contain headcanon. EU may not apply.

The way I see it the main jedi power is precognition. They can see things before they happen. Everything else is insignificant party tricks in comparison.

The jedi will win by choosing a future where he is the winner.


(And yes, this means that fights between force users are basically about out-precog-ing the other guy. Force powers and skill with a lightsaber can sometimes give you a move your opponent doesn't have access to, which is an advantage. But primarily the battle is won by whoever sees further into the potential futures and makes an appropriate future happen. For prophecy scale precognition fights this can get ... convoluted.)

[druid91]

Darth Vader absorbs Han's blaster fire in Episode V, so I don't think flames shouldn't be a problem.

Depending on the source. What happened there was the fact that one of Vaders hands is literally indestructible. As in 'survived falling into the death stars reactor core before it exploded' indestructible.


Depends on if platinum is just too hard to Bend, or if it has some sort of mystical/mythical significance that makes it resistant to being Bent. But considering platinum is only slightly harder than iron, it must be the latter. Assuming the rules have any consistency, which apparently they don't. The avatar wiki just says 'highly purified' metals cannot be Bent.


Well if you watch the scene in TLA, when Toph first metalbends. She notices impurities in the metal.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnFyo1A2QGk

So it's not the metal itself that's being bent, but flaws in that metal.


Jedi have the advantage big time. Their light sabers can deflect the boulders, ice, and lightning, and they are quick enough to avoid most of the rest. They can use force push/pull to disrupt the stance of the benders, and force leap to get close. Their precog abilities will also make it easy to dodge their opponents attacks. And once they get close, it's an instant kill.

The average jedi would certainly lose against someone like Aang or Troph. But that's average against exceptional. An equivalently exceptional Jedi is where I'd put my money on.

Firstly, I don't see how the lightsaber can DEFLECT a boulder. It can't. No more than Luke could deflect the bits of machinery Vader was throwing at him on cloud city.

Not to mention that it's an established lore point that you either get reliable precog or fantastic physical powers. Force Precognition depends on NOT muddying the waters by throwing superpowers around, hence why the Jedi, who put more stock in precog, aren't known for the crazy magic. But the Sith, who aren't known for precog, are known for crazy magic. This is also why the prequels made a plot point of the jedi not being able to see clearly. It wasn't Palpatine using his own powers to pull the wool over everyone's eyes. He forced them into a situation where their physical prowess's were more important than precognition, combined with his own sith meddling the flow of the force became harder than ever to read.

So basically you either choose A.) Impressive Physical Prowess. or B.) Reliable Precog.

You get one OR the other. Not both.

[Traab]

Warning: Post may contain headcanon. EU may not apply.

The way I see it the main jedi power is precognition. They can see things before they happen. Everything else is insignificant party tricks in comparison.

The jedi will win by choosing a future where he is the winner.


(And yes, this means that fights between force users are basically about out-precog-ing the other guy. Force powers and skill with a lightsaber can sometimes give you a move your opponent doesn't have access to, which is an advantage. But primarily the battle is won by whoever sees further into the potential futures and makes an appropriate future happen. For prophecy scale precognition fights this can get ... convoluted.)

I think this is a big point. That being said, it is possible to overwhelm the jedi. They cant precog their way out of a building sized wave of stone and earth heading right for them. There are limits to what they can handle. If the jedi can get in close, the bender is royally boned. That lightsaber will go right through any defense any bender can create and carve a straight line right through them. And unless said bender opens up with the massive large scale attack from all sides move they ARE capable of, but rarely open the fight with, the jedi can precog and dash his way through regular attacks till he closes the gap.

[Bobb]

Depending on the source. What happened there was the fact that one of Vaders hands is literally indestructible. As in 'survived falling into the death stars reactor core before it exploded' indestructible.

Vader's glove, was that also indestructible? :smalltongue:

[druid91]

Vader's glove, was that also indestructible? :smalltongue:

Yes. (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Glove_of_Darth_Vader)

Yes it was.

[Bobb]

Yes. (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Glove_of_Darth_Vader)

Yes it was.

Huh, thanks for teaching me some new Star Wars lore. :smallwink:



That source does say the blaster bolt deflecting abilities of his gloves were redundant due to his force powers. Force dissipation is a canon power.

[Kyberwulf]

Except it is both Physical and Precog.. When they are on Dagaboh. That is what Yoda is teaching him. How to fight using precog. Then in Cloud City, you can see the Huge jump Luke does to get out of Freezing Pit. Things like Metal bending or blood Bending don't count. As far as I am away not every bender can do it. It's rare.

[Seppl]

Still, being able to see possible futures a second or two in advance does not mean you can reliably dodge a wall of fire. You would just know in advance how screwed you are.

[Kyberwulf]

You can still move the fire with the force. Force push the wall. The Fire and Water aren't impenetrable like the rock. If Air Bending can stop Water and Fire bending. Then the Force could too.

[cobaltstarfire]

Except it is both Physical and Precog.. When they are on Dagaboh. That is what Yoda is teaching him. How to fight using precog. Then in Cloud City, you can see the Huge jump Luke does to get out of Freezing Pit. Things like Metal bending or blood Bending don't count. As far as I am away not every bender can do it. It's rare.

Blood Bending is rare, Metal Bending by Korra's time is probably better describe as uncommon, and that may be more because it's a fairly new area of bending that isn't taboo like blood bending is.

I suppose that's another question that must be asked, what "era" of Bender are we talking here?

[Seppl]

You can still move the fire with the force. Force push the wall. The Fire and Water aren't impenetrable like the rock. If Air Bending can stop Water and Fire bending. Then the Force could too.
Probably. Which brings us back to just comparing the amount of telekinesis both sides can do. It has been said that Jedi masters hold back and are therefore hard to gauge. Which is true. But this does not hold for Sith nor for Jedi fighting Sith. We have to assume that the abilities shown in the fights Yoda vs. Dooku and Yoda vs. Palpatine are approximately the maximum output of master level force users. Those feats are impressive, they far surpass what any run-of-the-mill bender or even skilled benders (first season Zuko, Dai Li agents and the like) can do. But the stuff that true masters like Pakku, Bumi and Iroh or prodigies like Katara, Toph and Azula can throw around? That seems a bit more impressive. Not by much but still significantly more. And they can do so a bit more casually than a Jedi. Yoda is visibly strained and busy while stopping the pillar from falling in his fight against Dooku, allowing the latter to escape (why did Dooku not just strike down Yoda back then?). Same in the fight against Palpatine when stopping the pods. Master benders also need to concentrate on moving such masses but not to the same degree as a Jedi.

[lurkmeister]

According to Iroh's description of lightning bending in the episode "Bitter Work", it is a bending of electric charges (or as he puts it: positive and negative energy). The lightning is the result of the bender separating different energies and then providing release. The bender does not control the lightning directly. The lightning redirection technique he shows later in the same episode is also described as a redirection of energy rather than a bending of the lightning bolt itself.
Fair point.

Here's another interesting thought: Waterbenders are shown to control their element through every common phase of matter. Does that imply that Avatarverse's hydrokinetic control over phase changes is extensible to the more uncommon phases of matter (that water can be)?

[Lizard Lord]

I think it would all depend on the specifics. Without the specifics it would be too hard to tell.

[Jayngfet]

The idea of a firebender calling forth a wall is pushing it.

Ozai could probably do it, but he's fire lord. The most we ever see average guys do is quick bursts. Likewise most earth benders aren't Toph. Most water benders aren't Katara. Aang was a prodigy child even with just air and thus can't be taken as the measure for the average airbender.

If the bender gets a fire wall, the force user gets lightning that can break through it because they're forcing a much more fast and intense heat through a smaller area. It's just simple logic and power scaling.

[Seppl]

Here's another interesting thought: Waterbenders are shown to control their element through every common phase of matter. Does that imply that Avatarverse's hydrokinetic control over phase changes is extensible to the more uncommon phases of matter (that water can be)?
There is such a thing as lavabending which is a specialized form of earthbending. Or according to behind the scenes material a mold of earthbending and firebending. It seems to be a rare talent, though, and not necessarily coupled to skill with earthbending, but more of a natural potential to mix bending styles: The Avatar can do it, otherwise we only ever see two other lavabenders. One of them is confirmed to be of mixed Earth Kingdom and Fire Nation heritage.
During the flashback scenes in "The Avatar and the Firelord" we also see Firelord Sozin bending "heat" (or maybe it is supposed to be hot air or smoke) the same way that Iroh redirects lightning.



The idea of a firebender calling forth a wall is pushing it.

Ozai could probably do it, but he's fire lord.Aang's first firebending master (forgot his name) does it. I guess that means that all highly skilled firebenders could do it but he is the only firebending master in the show who is not related to the royal family.


Likewise most earth benders aren't Toph. Most water benders aren't Katara. Aang was a prodigy child even with just air and thus can't be taken as the measure for the average airbender.Yeah, the structure of the show makes it kind of hard to gauge a moderately skilled bender. Most of the time we see total mooks, wunderkind prodigies, or old masters. Legend of Korra showed more everyday applications of bending and featured less super-benders. But I have not seen it in a while (and except for seasons 3 and maybe 4 I do not really want to rewatch it) and cannot remember the powerlevel of bending in that show.
I do remember, though, that TLOK introduces quite a few additional bending moves that could make life pretty difficult for a Jedi:
Lightningbending now seems a more common skill that many firebenders can perform with proper training. So is metalbending and Toph's "sonar" for earthbenders. There are more combustionbenders and bloodbenders out there (and the bloodbenders do not even necessarily need a full moon) than the singular examples from ATLA. There is the lavabending I mentioned above but that seems to be rare. Extremely spiritual airbenders can gain the permanent(!) ability to fly, how would a Jedi beat that? They can also enter the spiritworld and if I remember correctly, take people with them.Overall, benders of Korra's era have refined the bending arts. They have not increased the amount of stuff an average bender can manipulate but they have a lot more fine control. A common bender has a much wider set of moves than during Aang's time and may even perform tasks that were formerly exclusive to masters of the art. Masters are able to do things that were unheard of or just being discovered during ATLA.

[Dire Moose]

In most cases, Jedi can't use the force to harm another living creature. I mean they can, but that is seen as a perversion of the force. Even force pushing is against the rules.

Luke Skywalker force-choked a couple of Jabba's guards in Return of the Jedi.

[GAZ]

The worst bender beats the worst Jedi. The worst a bender can be is still a not-awful martial artist with ranged attack because that's how bending works. The worst Jedi can be is very weak in the force and just barely capable of not cutting their own hands off with a light saber because they're diplomats, advisers, or clerks.

The average Jedi beats the average bender. The average bender is a mook in the Fire Lord's army or the Triple Threat Triad or something similar. The average Jedi cuts down mooks all the time. They'll be able to deflect element attacks and could return telekinetic throws of similar quality, then move in at enhanced speed and light saber it up for the win.

A strong Jedi beats a strong bender for basically the same argument as above scaled up.

The best bender beats the best Jedi. Without the EU, Palpatine is canonically the strongest force user we've seen. And honestly, his force lightning pales in comparison to lightning bending in on-screen effects. A fully realized Avatar is the best bender. The Avatar has picked up bigger things than Palpy or Yoda have. The Avatar has bigger, stronger, longer ranged attacks on offense and the triple combo of air bender senses, earth bender senses, and spiritual connection on defense. I think that's match for reading the force.

[Reddish Mage]

Luke Skywalker force-choked a couple of Jabba's guards in Return of the Jedi.

Obi wasn't shy about pushing around General Grevious.

A lot of the analysis on the supposed weakness of Jedi is based on the movies where the effects are few and far between. The cannon included cartoons and maybe some manuals and the effects here are pretty detailed and impressive.

Yes, the force unleashed and various EU media is truly ridiculous pwnage, but all the Jedi need is to be quicker and throw a light saber straight and fast (or use a blaster, they do that sometimes) rather than use flowing wushu.

Not to mention, Jedi have starships, and clone trooper armies in the New Republic Era. If we are talking army vs army confrontation with full equipment, the Jedi are light years ahead.

[Bobb]

The best bender beats the best Jedi. Without the EU, Palpatine is canonically the strongest force user we've seen. And honestly, his force lightning pales in comparison to lightning bending in on-screen effects. A fully realized Avatar is the best bender. The Avatar has picked up bigger things than Palpy or Yoda have. The Avatar has bigger, stronger, longer ranged attacks on offense and the triple combo of air bender senses, earth bender senses, and spiritual connection on defense. I think that's match for reading the force.



Even allowing for 90% of SW badass characters being removed from the comparison (because they would easily beat any Avatar) you have to realize a few things.


1. Palpatine's power did not come from violence. His strength was in manipulation, subterfuge, and stealth. Palpy would convince the Avatar to fight his wars for him.

2. Palpatine was a spent force by the time he is seen in the movies. He never focused on combat and needed it exactly twice in his on screen appearances.

3. The movie canon is that the jedi aren't what they used to be, many secrets lost to time and neglect. If we're taking the low point of a universe's offerings vs the best of all time in the other universe, judging on a cage-match with a politician on one side and a war machine on the other the second category had better win.



And I for one do not accept that all the EU is to be discarded in the rankings. They are, after all, part of SW.

[Flickerdart]

Force Choke seems to be instant victory - it can be done across huge distances, requires a much quicker and simpler motion than magic kung-fu, and can't be dodged.

[Traab]

I still dont think it requires anything too fancy, force sprint towards the bender, dodging through precog ability then stab them right in the face. Just because benders are CAPABLE of massive attacks, doesnt mean they generally use them without there being a specific reason. A fire bender might be able to create a wall of flame barreling down on a person, but they are more likely to start off with the usual punching a fireball at their enemy move. Same thing for earth benders or any other really. Same thing for jedi, sure they might be capable of crushing a building in their telekinetic grip, but they arent going to do that in a death match until its made apparent that they have to. Instead they will stick with charge, swing, win. And thats all they will likely need to do to win.

[The Glyphstone]

Do Jedi ever actually do that, though? The only example I can think of for Jedi attacking at a run is during the arena scene in Ep2. Every other time they just seem to advance at a walk while deflecting enemy projectiles with their lightsaber, until they are close enough to start jumping around like pogo sticks.

[Traab]

Do Jedi ever actually do that, though? The only example I can think of for Jedi attacking at a run is during the arena scene in Ep2. Every other time they just seem to advance at a walk while deflecting enemy projectiles with their lightsaber, until they are close enough to start jumping around like pogo sticks.

Mace windu certainly wasnt ambling along when he charged at jango fett, deflecting blaster shots till he could chop his head off. It may not have been at his fastest possible sprint, but he was definitely moving faster than a stroll. Even the darth maul fight had a solid amount of switching between run and walk.

[GAZ]

Even allowing for 90% of SW badass characters being removed from the comparison (because they would easily beat any Avatar) you have to realize a few things.


1. Palpatine's power did not come from violence. His strength was in manipulation, subterfuge, and stealth. Palpy would convince the Avatar to fight his wars for him.

2. Palpatine was a spent force by the time he is seen in the movies. He never focused on combat and needed it exactly twice in his on screen appearances.

3. The movie canon is that the jedi aren't what they used to be, many secrets lost to time and neglect. If we're taking the low point of a universe's offerings vs the best of all time in the other universe, judging on a cage-match with a politician on one side and a war machine on the other the second category had better win.



And I for one do not accept that all the EU is to be discarded in the rankings. They are, after all, part of SW.

Why and how do 90% of Star Wars badasses beat any Avatar? We've seen the Avatar flood cities, topple buildings, fight volcanoes, wear away mountains, and shift land masses. All of that stuff is more bigger and more impressive than the Senate boxes or Luke's x-wing, the top force movement feats from the current canon. The canon that states that Palpatine is the most powerful ever. The books never fail to mention that Darth Sidious is the utmost Sith of all time, explaining how he's mastered all known force techniques and even inventing new ones.

The EU is not officially part of Star Wars anymore. It sucks because I used to read all of those books back in the day. I basically had the Official Guide to Characters memorized at one point. But ever since Disney bought the property Exar Kun, Naga Sadow, Darth Revan, and the such are basically alternate universe fan fiction of the highest quality.

You "need to realize" that Palpatine's greatest power was his power, not his chicanery. It was only the fact that he had so completely mastered the dark side that allowed him to conceal himself and infiltrate the Republic's power structure in the first place. Darth Sidious was an evil space wizard, not a politician. His strength wasn't spent by the time of the movies, it was ever increasing. That's why he looks more decrepit in RotJ than RotS, because he and the dark side are even more closely intertwined. And he was good enough at it to match the Jedi Council's singular light saber combat specialist - Mace Windu - after having to start the fight outnumbered and unprepared.

The Emperor is the best Star Wars has and he's not enough to beat the Avatar.




Obi wasn't shy about pushing around General Grevious.

A lot of the analysis on the supposed weakness of Jedi is based on the movies where the effects are few and far between. The cannon included cartoons and maybe some manuals and the effects here are pretty detailed and impressive.

Yes, the force unleashed and various EU media is truly ridiculous pwnage, but all the Jedi need is to be quicker and throw a light saber straight and fast (or use a blaster, they do that sometimes) rather than use flowing wushu.

Not to mention, Jedi have starships, and clone trooper armies in the New Republic Era. If we are talking army vs army confrontation with full equipment, the Jedi are light years ahead.

A thrown saber can be deflected by any element and a blaster bolt (Really? So uncivilized.) could be stopped by earth or water bending.

[Seppl]

Mace windu certainly wasnt ambling along when he charged at jango fett, deflecting blaster shots till he could chop his head off. It may not have been at his fastest possible sprint, but he was definitely moving faster than a stroll. Even the darth maul fight had a solid amount of switching between run and walk.Still, no super-speed during fights. Someone quickly running at them with a sword and dodging their projectiles is definitely something that a bender can and will react to. Only the mooks keep standing around during fights. The skilled benders are jumping around, dodging and blocking just as much as even the most skilled Jedi during the prequels. Probably even more, with the exception of Yoda. It is never explained how they have those superhuman reactions and athletic abilities but they just do.

Both sides are pretty much wuxia. But one brought a powerful and versatile ranged weapon, the other one a sword. A Jedi would probably be comparable to someone like Jet, Zuko (when he goes swordfighting) or Suki. Able to keep up with the best benders in terms of martial arts but ultimately defeated when the benders see that they have to get serious.

[Peelee]

Depending on the source. What happened there was the fact that one of Vaders hands is literally indestructible. As in 'survived falling into the death stars reactor core before it exploded' indestructible.

True. However, energy absorption is a force power.

[Flickerdart]

Both sides are pretty much wuxia. But one brought a powerful and versatile ranged weapon, the other one a sword. A Jedi would probably be comparable to someone like Jet, Zuko (when he goes swordfighting) or Suki. Able to keep up with the best benders in terms of martial arts but ultimately defeated when the benders see that they have to get serious.
Jet, the Blue Spirit, and Suki don't tend to bring telekinesis, precognition, and unblockable laser swords to the table.

[Bobb]

@ GAZ, when I say 90% of badasses I am referring to:

Darth Nihilus, who has scoured planets of life remotely, using the force.

Naga Shadow, who has moved stars into each other's orbit.

Cade Skywalker, who has resurrected the dead.

People like that. Most characters nowadays can pull star destroyers out of orbit.



The Emperor is the best Star Wars has and he's not enough to beat the Avatar.

He's not enough to beat up the Avatar in a fistfight. But he has mind blanked thousands of people and would best the Avatar in any contest that was not an immediate slugfest.


Again, saying the discarded EU is not valid anymore is subjective.


Frankly, the obscene power levels shown by Jedi are a point for the Avatar verse for good storytelling and grounded reality. But people need to stop pretending absolute mastery over one of the four elements is as good as the highest level of telekinesis plus precognition. I know which one I would choose.

[GloatingSwine]

The best bender beats the best Jedi. Without the EU, Palpatine is canonically the strongest force user we've seen. And honestly, his force lightning pales in comparison to lightning bending in on-screen effects.

It's difficult to compare given that lightning in Avatar is used to kill whereas Palpatine seems primarily intent on causing pain with it. He takes a long time to kill people with force lightning because making them suffer is the point.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

For most of the Bender's move sets. They have this weird little thing where they have to dance. Which gives the Jedi ample time to get out of the way what's going to happen. They have some pretty quick reflexes. I don't think Benders really have the same level of speed or reaction time. I know there where some instants where wiggle a toe or thumb or nose... worked, but those where very rare, and usually named individuals.
Yeah no, the M. Night movies do not count as main-line Avatarverse canon. Canon bending manipulates elements in unison with a bender's movements. This is pretty obvious from every single bender's performance in the series, but the point at which they most clearly demonstrate this is when Aang begins learning waterbending. Even his tai chi movements (arguably the most "dance"-ful of the martial arts in Avatar) correspond one-to-one with the bending he performs. He pulls his hands, the water pulls with him.

[GloatingSwine]

Shyamalan's version of Avatar is the worst thing to happen to a franchise ever.

Worse than the existence of Jar Jar Binks, Michael Bay's Transformers, and the end of Mass Effect 3.

It's a crime against filmmaking and against the Avatar name.

[Jayngfet]

He's not enough to beat up the Avatar in a fistfight.

He probably is. TCW Palpatine is shown to be incredibly agile and dangerous in a fight. He prefers not to do it but he was able to fight Maul and Opress at the same time, and they were both powerful Jedi slayers in and of themselves. It was a stupid fight that was clearly rushed in, but it's still technically canon.

[Lvl45DM!]

EU isn't canon anymore. Doesn't count at all.

Like in all fights, you can't pick one side or the other without taking into account the environment, the fighters, the motivations the knowledge each combatant has of the other.
Fighting an airbender on a mountain or in the trees, a waterbender in the ocean or in the arctic, an earthbender surrounded by rocks or a firebender in an area with lots of heat really changes the equation.
Imagine the Jedi rushing at a water bender in the arctic only to run into a pool of water and then being frozen completely solid, or fire coming at him from every direction.

By the same token the earthbender who puts up a wall of rock and then gets stabbed through it by a laser sword or an airbender pushing the Jedi off a tree only to have them force jump back up and Maul them would be screwed.

Short answer: They are evenly matched enough to require more information

[Jayngfet]

The two TV series are still canon. So everything occurring within them is still canon. Meaning yes, Palpatine can outfight the Avatar and every other bender hand to hand.

[Lvl45DM!]

The two TV series are still canon. So everything occurring within them is still canon. Meaning yes, Palpatine can outfight the Avatar and every other bender hand to hand.

Pfft Benders can, but don't fight hand to hand.

What's his range? Aang moved an ocean and Korra moved mountains in the Avatar state, both from very far away.
Average Earthbenders were shooting rocks 100s of feet into the air to take down Appa, admittedly with 2 of them doing the shooting. Toph launched herself and 2 others even further to land on blimps. And the whole Team Avatar were blasting spirits 100s of feet away unison in the LoK season 2 finale. Did we ever see Palpatine match that range?

[Jayngfet]

Pfft Benders can, but don't fight hand to hand.

What's his range? Aang moved an ocean and Korra moved mountains in the Avatar state, both from very far away.
Average Earthbenders were shooting rocks 100s of feet into the air to take down Appa, admittedly with 2 of them doing the shooting. Toph launched herself and 2 others even further to land on blimps. And the whole Team Avatar were blasting spirits 100s of feet away unison in the LoK season 2 finale. Did we ever see Palpatine match that range?

Distance matters not. A sith lord can choke out people across planetary distances instantly, and that's just in the second movie.

You're trying to find hard limits on a concept that by design doesn't care about scale or range.

[Seppl]

Distance matters not. A sith lord can choke out people across planetary distances instantly, and that's just in the second movie.
Then we need more details about the scenario. If the combatants start too far away from each other, force choke becomes a trump card. If they start in bending range, the choke could probably be interrupted. And what is the availability of bendable materials anyway? Especially waterbenders rely on an element that is not readily available everywhere and cannot be carried around in huge quantities. On the other hand, a featureless earthen plains would be very advantageous for an earthbender as the Jedi would not have any safe ground to move on.

Also, the interaction of bending and the force has to be defined. I understand that Jedi have some resistance to force powers or are able to employ counter-moves, which is why they do not just force push each other, correct? In the bloodbending episode it is implied (but not spoken outright) that humans also have a certain resistance to being bent, which is why it takes very powerful waterbenders to bloodbend at all (bending the water in flowers seems to be much easier) and in a bloodbending duel the more powerful bender can bend the other one. Could a Jedi resist bloodbending? Can a bender resist force choke? Or could a bloodbender counter it by bending their own throat?
Clarification: I am not calling for a bloodbender vs. Jedi duel. Bloodbending is just too special to be representative in a Avatarverse vs. Jedi thread. I just use it to illustrate my point about the interaction of the two magic systems.

[Kyberwulf]

Well I think there are three questions being asked. One, Which is better. I think the Force is better, because it isn't so limited. Discounting the Avatar, everyone seems to be able to only do one type of bending. Whereas the Force has far more versatility. Depending on your training and your natural ability, means you can only get better. You have more schools of abilities to draw from, so to speak. While some abilities need concentration to maintain, almost all of your abilities are activated at instant speed. Elemental Bending, while useful, means your pretty much a one trick pony. You need time to start your moves, and concentration to keep them going.

The second question is, Who would win in a fight. A Jedi Force User, or a Bender. This is very important. As I have stated before. Specifying a Jedi Force user, means you have specified a Warrior with a certain code he has to follow. Rules that have to be obeyed. Otherwise he isn't a Jedi anymore. While I think the Jedi would still win versus a bender, it also means he is limited in what he can do with the Force. That isn't a limitation that most benders don't have, save the Air Benders usually.

Thirdly, I assumed he wants to know who would win in a fight between two Highly powered and trained Users of the Force and bending. I think this is a no brainer. Once you take off the limitations of the Jedi's way of teaching. You can use the force to it's fullest potential, in both Offense and Defense. When that happens, you get people Like Star Killer. It's game over for Benders.

I Have some problems with people using the Avatar for these fights. First off, the Avatar isn't just a bender. He is the spiritual embodiment of a long line of Benders. So it isn't just one person. Secondly, people assume that the Avatar would never lose a fight. In his non Avatar state. Aang is losing all the time. The only reason he survives is because he has friend to help him, and the fire nation didn't want to kill him so he couldn't be reincarnated. Any named Force user vs. Aang would probably win easily. He just isn't that competent. I assume it's the same for Korra. And finally, Avatars can lose. They can also die in fights. Otherwise the only Avatars you see when they talk to Aang would all be old. Being an avatar doesn't make you invincible.

[Reddish Mage]

What are the restrictions on using the force for Jedi anyway? Also, the nature of the versus, if we assume both sides are going all out and thus lose ideas about peaceful resolution and compunctions about killing, may render that null and void.

[Flickerdart]

Let's set up a situation, just so we have specifics to play with.

A bender of any one element (let's say Zuko as a teenager - a powerful but not legendary firebender) and a Jedi Knight (let's say Kyle Katarn - a ready example of the extent of the Force's many powers) are transported to our favourite "rows of stone pillars" map (http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Wulong_Forest) where Aang fought Ozai. They are placed outside of sight range - let's say 100 metres apart. A small river flows parallel to a line drawn between their starting positions, another 100 metres to the side and also out of sight. They know that there is another person somewhere among the pillars, but not who, what their powers are like, how dangerous they are, etc. All they know is that the person is hostile. It is currently late afternoon, and the moon (once it rises) is half-illuminated.

They are equipped with iconic equipment for their respective sides - the bender and Jedi are both wearing regular cloth only, and the Jedi has a single-blade lightsaber and no robotic prosthetics or blaster.

Thoughts?

[Reddish Mage]

Let's set up a situation, just so we have specifics to play with.

A bender of any one element (let's say Zuko as a teenager - a powerful but not legendary firebender) and a Jedi Knight (let's say Kyle Katarn - a ready example of the extent of the Force's many powers) are transported to our favourite "rows of stone pillars" map (http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Wulong_Forest) where Aang fought Ozai. They are placed outside of sight range - let's say 100 metres apart. A small river flows parallel to a line drawn between their starting positions, another 100 metres to the side and also out of sight. They know that there is another person somewhere among the pillars, but not who, what their powers are like, how dangerous they are, etc. All they know is that the person is hostile. It is currently late afternoon, and the moon (once it rises) is half-illuminated.

They are equipped with iconic equipment for their respective sides - the bender and Jedi are both wearing regular cloth only, and the Jedi has a single-blade lightsaber and no robotic prosthetics or blaster.

Thoughts?

First thought, Kyle Katarn, at certain points in his career, is not adverse to force choking.

[Anteros]

Zuko, and most other benders seem to prefer fighting in melee range. I'm pretty sure they would get destroyed easily.

Someone like Aang or Korra who likes to fight from a distance might have a better shot.

[Traab]

Correct me if im wrong, but arent most fire benders straight line fighters? Meaning, they punch and launch a fireball in a straight line, kick and launch a vertical line of fire in a straight line, hurl a lightning bolt, once again, in a more or less straight line. If thats the case, then barring any mass destruction techniques, i really dont see kyle having a problem dodging the attacks and working to close the gap.

[Kyberwulf]

For the most part, Jedi aren't suppose to use the force to harm a living creature. They aren't suppose to use it willy nilly. Only as a last resort. Which is why Qui Gonn was seen as a sort of rebel. Which was picked up by Obi wan. Then Picked up by Anakin. Also Picked up by Luke. Which is why they use the force more then they are suppose to use it. They can use it to boost their abilities to not die.

Also, when Luke used the force to choke the guards. He wasn't really a Jedi Knight. His training wasn't complete until he faced the emperor. When he faced that anger, hate and fear. He let go of it. That's when he truly became a Jedi Knight.

I think it matters completely, the experience, the motivations and restrictions of people. Otherwise it's not really the characters in the fight. Just a comparison of abilities.

[The Glyphstone]

I believe 'serious' versus thread forums refer to that as 'bloodlust on/off'. Or possibly Character Induced Stupidity, I've never been entirely clear where they think one stops and another begins.

[Kyberwulf]

I forgot to mention, Jedi's can and do kill. In defense of themselves or innocents. They aren't saints. They aren't beholden to any laws and restrictions that normal people are. They Only have to watch out for using the force in a negative way, and giving into their passions.

[Forum Explorer]

What are the restrictions on using the force for Jedi anyway? Also, the nature of the versus, if we assume both sides are going all out and thus lose ideas about peaceful resolution and compunctions about killing, may render that null and void.

To stay calm, in control, and to allow wisdom to rule over personal desires. Effectively, don't use the force in anger. Which kinda extends to don't use the force as a weapon because generally in combat you are angry at your opponent (some Jedi could/would use the force as a weapon anyways though)

While people kinda focus on the military role the Jedi Knights played, that wasn't their primary purpose. They were supposed to be mediators and diplomats, providing a neutral and wise perspective and authority on a conflict. `

[Kato]

While people kinda focus on the military role the Jedi Knights played, that wasn't their primary purpose. They were supposed to be mediators and diplomats, providing a neutral and wise perspective and authority on a conflict. `

Yeah, we've seen how well audiences liked Jedis as diplomats in the prequels :smalltongue:
I mean, by having them fight mostly robots they got around the "Jedi should not kill (lightly)" rule. Kin of convenient, really.

Though, as I'm only somewhat familiar with the EU, I have no idea what an "average" Jedis power is. I mean, as often, people go about discussing the feats of Palpatine, Anakin, Obi-Wan, or people from EU legends who were even more powerful.But can your run-of-the-mill Jedi move planets? Shoot lightning? How combat ready is s/he even?
Of course then we can't compare them to the Avatar either but need some normal bender who, frankly, is only slightly more powerful than any human, I guess. Which means the Jedi win :smalltongue:

Merely from my point of view, if we exclude EU things, and claims without back up from the canon (Well, Vader, I am somewhat curious what you would do if I fired that Death Star at you, if the Force is so much more powerful), matches are rather even between the top fighters. Yes, Jedi are shown to be formidable but they clearly have limits. They are not immortal or invincible, and sufficiently skilled opponents are a threat to them, be they humans or droids or whatever. (Okay, this is EU, but Boba comes to mind) Benders are top Tier humans, the Avatar even somewhat beyond that. And the greatest feats the Avatars perform are on a larger scale than any canon Force powers shown. (We really don't need to discuss which lightning is more powerful when one moves mountains and islands)

But as often, both groups/opponents have skills that should one-shot the enemy, so it's down to "who shot first", a discussion I don't think can be settled peacefully. (Well, if we take Jedi, they of course would not shoot first. But possibly hit first)

[Jayngfet]

Then we need more details about the scenario. If the combatants start too far away from each other, force choke becomes a trump card. If they start in bending range, the choke could probably be interrupted.

One problem there though.

To hit a jedi with any kind of interrupting attack you either need something so focused a lightsaber can and will parry it(lightning shots, stone bullets, ect), or something so heavy you need to throw your whole body into it for multiple seconds of being choked with flawless form.

Even then if we're playing interruptions, a force push is faster and can interrupt any kind of bending stance faster and with greater ease and range of power. Luke Skywalker shows zero problem hitting three guys at once with a push and ending that fight right there and at that point he was still under trained in comparison to an "average" jedi.

At long range, force is a trump card. At melee range, a lightsaber trumps any weapons a bender can bring. At mid field they may have a chance depending on the specific type of bender and their fighting style, but that's at best even and realistically still at a disadvantage given that jedi can and do use the force for super speed, even as Padawans and even in the films, even in the films and would still just either close to melee range or back up to long range for an easy kill.

[Anteros]

I believe 'serious' versus thread forums refer to that as 'bloodlust on/off'. Or possibly Character Induced Stupidity, I've never been entirely clear where they think one stops and another begins.

Ha. That's because the line moves to wherever favors the character they want to win the most.

[ben-zayb]

I believe 'serious' versus thread forums refer to that as 'bloodlust on/off'. Or possibly Character Induced Stupidity, I've never been entirely clear where they think one stops and another begins.

That's what I've been waiting for someone to point out: Parameters. Are characteristic morals on/off? Are the characters (probably unchacteristically) bloodlusted? How far apart from each other are they when the fight starts? What does the battlefield look like? Are character/plot/writer -induced stupidity on?

[Traab]

That's what I've been waiting for someone to point out: Parameters. Are characteristic morals on/off? Are the characters (probably unchacteristically) bloodlusted? How far apart from each other are they when the fight starts? What does the battlefield look like? Are character/plot/writer -induced stupidity on?

Normally in a death battle you go with fighting for the kill, using powers they have, or are demonstrated to have access to. In the case of jedi that makes things complicated as there are a number of powers that a jedi COULD use if they were to give into their anger and such, and you could make an argument for a jedi going for the kill to be giving into their anger, but then its a sith versus bender argument. But then, it could also be like the superman arguments where people point out that superman is more than capable of speed blitzing his way to victory against pretty much anything other than the Flash, yet he almost never does so. So in death battles he doesnt use his inherently obscenely superior speed to insta win his fights. Argh, that makes my head hurt, whatever.

Im going to work with this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBNdwJnaDz4) and say that going by what zuko uses there, an average jedi should be able to win. His attacks are straightforward, telegraphed, and relatively easy to dodge. His big move at the end takes so much wind up time as to be only useable in a tight confined area with nowhere to go. The level of agility and speed I will put as roughly equivalent. We see similar acrobatics all the time from jedi. The only issue is closing the gap. If the jedi can do that, and I have no reason to think they cant, then he wins. There is no defense against a light saber to the face in the avatar verse. Toph at her metal bending best would still get sliced right through. Water air or fire benders wouldnt even be able to attempt to block and have it work.

[Kyberwulf]

Benders are hardly top teir humans. Sure they got some training. That doesn't mean they are top teir. By saying that they are, Top tier human. You are saying they are all as adapt as Toph, Aang, and every other prodigy bender there is out there. As far as I know, if you have a little bending ability, you are called a bender. Cletus the Slack-jawwed bender, can be a thing.

Jedi's are screened from either birth, to childhood. They are trained in nothing but controlling their powers, until they are old enough to be chosen by a Jedi to train even further. They aren't allowed to sit around. They are constantly being tested, and the physical bodies are being honed. By the time they reach Jedi Status, they are extremely well trained physically. The have a near Spartan level physicality.

Yes some non Jedi where able to take down Jedi. I am not disputing that. It happens. Qui Gonn even said so. Mai Ling, The Kyoshi Warriors, Master Piando, and even Sokka -_- where able to defeat Benders. On a regular basis. Now imangine that they have the Force.

I have a problem with people referencing the power of the Force in the movies. I maintain that you never see the power of the Force, because it never really needs to be used in that way. In the first trilogy, the Jedi are gimped because during the time of the Separatists, the Sith have clouded the force to the Jedi. They weren't really at the Height of their powers. The Sith where still moving around in secrecy, so they couldn't use it to their fullest either. In the Original Trilogy, they never really needed to use the Force.

You never see the Force used in a way that it can be fully expressed. To see the true power of the Force, you would have to go back in time to the Sith v Jedi wars thousands of years before. Again, that is all non-cannon though.

[cobaltstarfire]

There is no defense against a light saber to the face in the avatar verse. Toph at her metal bending best would still get sliced right through. Water air or fire benders wouldnt even be able to attempt to block and have it work.

Yeah there is that, the lightsaber on its own is pretty unbeatable.

But that bothers me slightly, like the only reason the Jedi might win is because his tool can't be blocked, only dodged. Or rather give one to a trained swordsman from the avatarverse, and they may also stand a good chance of beating most benders so long as they play their cards right. I suppose a more normal person couldn't close the gap as easily as a Jedi could, but a weapon that can easily cut through almost anything gives a huge advantage.

The lightsaber makes it hard to really compare a Jedi Vs a Bender, but at the same time you can't take the Jedi's lightsaber away since it's one of their most important and defining tools.

[Traab]

Yeah there is that, the lightsaber on its own is pretty unbeatable.

But that bothers me slightly, like the only reason the Jedi might win is because his tool can't be blocked, only dodged. Or rather give one to a trained swordsman from the avatarverse, and they may also stand a good chance of beating most benders so long as they play their cards right. I suppose a more normal person couldn't close the gap as easily as a Jedi could, but a weapon that can easily cut through almost anything gives a huge advantage.

The lightsaber makes it hard to really compare a Jedi Vs a Bender, but at the same time you can't take the Jedi's lightsaber away since it's one of their most important and defining tools.

There are some techniques that an experienced bender, especially one who knows what he is fighting against, could use. Its basically a more dangerous swordsman in close range. You may not be able to directly block the weapon itself, but you can block his arms and impede his ability to swing till he bypasses that. Toph for example would do well at creating lots of chest high walls the jedi has to jump over or dodge around to break up his forward momentum, that and find ways to take the ground out from under him and mess with his footing. A firebender might learn to make every close in attack a choice in MAD by sending out a blast right in front of the jedi, making him decide if going for a kill is worth being badly burned. You get the idea. It would be harder, oh my yes, so much harder than blocking some standard (or even great) swordsman, but its not impossible. The problem is that in a death match you dont get advance notice about your opponent, so the odds of the bender figuring out he cant block a saber before it cuts him in half are pretty low. I could see toph or korra creating a wall of earth or water to try to block the jedi on incoming, then being stabbed right through it and dying with a look of shock on their face.

[Jayngfet]

To be absolutely fair, a wall of earth isn't hard to do, per se. We see the kids in the soccer match manage on the fly to do something similar so it's not a difficult technique once you've got it down.

But that's just defensive. You're only defending and can't counterattack, simply because your entire strategy is just putting stuff between you and your opponent.

[Reddish Mage]

Why must the Jedi close the distance when they could simply throw the lightsaber, or move the bender to them?

Of course, we've seen Jedi run at breakneck speeds right at the beginning of Episode 1 so they could close distance virtually instantly,

I have to agree the lightsaber, while extremely deadly, is not a game changer. These fights tend to come down to who is faster, hardier, or has stronger attacks, and, notwithstanding that the Jedi usually act pretty human in the movies, they have moments when they far exceed even legendary wushu-like benders and martial artist of Avatarverse on every level.

Really, its more the medium of live-action at fault. The benders of the movie totally suck. Clone Wars Jedi vs Benders....no contest.

[cobaltstarfire]

Why would you use benders from that monstrosity for this kind of comparison?

[Lvl45DM!]

I'm gonna ask it again. What is the range of the force?
In the movies they only ever use the force at a range comparable to an average bender's average range, somewhere between 20-40 metres.
But the way everyone is talking seems to indicate that Force users can reach any distance or much further than a bender can. I havent watched any of the TV shows so are there any scenes that show a Force user going further than that?

Also I dont know who Kyle Katarn is but end of series Zuko, who is 16, was a shockingly powerful bender. He has sent forth destructive waves of fire as well as simple bursts, like in Zuko Alone or his break dancing move in his Agni Kai with Azula, has Firebended without moving to break through Katara's ice wall in Winter Solstice and if Kyle shoots any lightning at him he's gonna have a bad time. Zuko's swords also augment his power acting as focii increasing his range the speed of the fireballs and their heat, again Zuko Alone. His charged shots can blow through boulders bigger than a man, as seen in Crossroads of Destiny.
Also it might just be the wuxia setting but Zuko has always been able to jump...really far. So he has mobility, range, area of affect and can breathe fire or increase the heat if he's being force choked.

[Anteros]

Vader chokes a guy through a phone call, so the range is pretty good.

[GloatingSwine]

I'm gonna ask it again. What is the range of the force?
In the movies they only ever use the force at a range comparable to an average bender's average range, somewhere between 20-40 metres.
But the way everyone is talking seems to indicate that Force users can reach any distance or much further than a bender can. I havent watched any of the TV shows so are there any scenes that show a Force user going further than that?


Admiral Ozzel gets choked out from at least several rooms away via video screen.

IIRC there's a case where one of the other Star Destroyer captains gets choked out from the next ship over in Jedi as well.

[Reddish Mage]

Why would you use benders from that monstrosity for this kind of comparison?


Since the remainder who still think Jedi are pretty weak and slow are apparently looking at the life action movies rather myopically. The movies have plenty of moments of incredible power displays (choking and seeing across vast distances, absorbing blaster fire, making a precise shot from a starfighter traveling at fighter speeds with eyes closed....that sort of thing), however people are saying things like "Jedi are weak and slow and don't use the force in battle" so they clearly must be remembering certain parts of the movie and not others.


I'm noting that live-action often has less powerful-looking characters than cartoons. If you are going to ignore the canonical Star Wars cartoons then you should be fair and only use the Last Airbender movie as a comparison.



I'm gonna ask it again. What is the range of the force?
In the movies they only ever use the force at a range comparable to an average bender's average range, somewhere between 20-40 metres.
But the way everyone is talking seems to indicate that Force users can reach any distance or much further than a bender can. I havent watched any of the TV shows so are there any scenes that show a Force user going further than that?

Also I dont know who Kyle Katarn is but end of series Zuko, who is 16, was a shockingly powerful bender. He has sent forth destructive waves of fire as well as simple bursts, like in Zuko Alone or his break dancing move in his Agni Kai with Azula, has Firebended without moving to break through Katara's ice wall in Winter Solstice and if Kyle shoots any lightning at him he's gonna have a bad time. Zuko's swords also augment his power acting as focii increasing his range the speed of the fireballs and their heat, again Zuko Alone. His charged shots can blow through boulders bigger than a man, as seen in Crossroads of Destiny.
Also it might just be the wuxia setting but Zuko has always been able to jump...really far. So he has mobility, range, area of affect and can breathe fire or increase the heat if he's being force choked.

Kyle Katarn is the protagonist of a series of Star Wars videogames. He starts off as a Rebel mercenary but becomes a Jedi like his father before him and kicks major Sith and Imperial butt.

He has access to the full array of Jedi and Sith powers (labeled as such in the games), partly because he struggles between the light and dark side of the force.

The problem with excluding the EU, is that the various Jefi game with characters like Kyle Katarn is where many of us get out ideas of what Jedi can do.

The videogames are more or less consistent with the movies, but the first thing you notice with animation is that the effects are more superhuman and the force gets used in very dramatic ways a lot more often.

[dancrilis]

I'm gonna ask it again. What is the range of the force?

Lightyears (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9DZF7Hx2zM).
And yes that is canon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_canon#List_of_Star_Wars_canon).

However Palpatine is not a Jedi (and does seem in a league of his very own) so perhaps should not be included for this.

Normal Jedi vs good Benders - probably 50/50 (same with good Jedi vs top range Benders, and most top ranked Jedi vs fully realised Avatars - but bring Sith into it particularly Palpatine or Vader and just the range they have for active harmful powers makes this a non-contest).

[Kyberwulf]

I don't think you should bring the Avatar into this at all. He is a Very special circumstance. Like, There isn't really an equivalent in the Star Wars Universe.

[Kato]

I don't think you should bring the Avatar into this at all. He is a Very special circumstance. Like, There isn't really an equivalent in the Star Wars Universe.

Yeah, I mean, the avatar is a bender who is meant to bring balance to the elements. It's not like there has ever been some prophecy about a person who was meant to do the same to the force, and who seemingly was born purely due to that power. I mean, it must be some kind of Force messiah or something :smalltongue:

[cobaltstarfire]

Since the remainder who still think Jedi are pretty weak and slow are apparently looking at the life action movies rather myopically. The movies have plenty of moments of incredible power displays (choking and seeing across vast distances, absorbing blaster fire, making a precise shot from a starfighter traveling at fighter speeds with eyes closed....that sort of thing), however people are saying things like "Jedi are weak and slow and don't use the force in battle" so they clearly must be remembering certain parts of the movie and not others.


And those people are making poor arguments, that isn't any reason to use Avatar Movie as the baseline for bender capability at all, because it is a poor representation of what benders can do and I'm sure you, me, and everyone else in this thread knows that. Just like most of us know that suggesting that Jedi are weak or slow is also a poor representation of a Jedis capabilities.

[gomipile]

I'm noting that live-action often has less powerful-looking characters than cartoons. If you are going to ignore the canonical Star Wars cartoons then you should be fair and only use the Last Airbender movie as a comparison.


That would be an invalid comparison, as most people consider the Star Wars live action films to be the most canonical source, while The Last Airbender live action film isn't canonical at all except to itself.

I would be almost okay with it, though, if only the live action film had accurately portrayed most of the characters. As things stand, though, if you talk "Jedi" most people think the live action films, and if you talk elemental "benders" most people think of the two Nickelodeon animated series.

[ThinkMinty]

Firebenders have been known to fly on firejets but it is unclear if that can be done under normal conditions or if it is something that can only be done under a comet or by super-prodigies like Azula.

General Iroh II does it in Legend of Korra using less fire and more mobility than Azula did. Comit Power'd Ozai was more explosive with it, where this guy had the precision to rocket around the air disabling and commandeering biplanes without even having a parachute with him. So...it's an advanced technique, but it can be done. Dude ended up fire-flying well enough to qualify as a flying ace as far as the standards of being a flying ace (shooting down five enemy aircraft) go.

Anyways...yeah, the rules for transparency and weaponry need to be accounted for before the question has a meaningful answer. As far as how to go about that, use the Death Battle protocols, in that transparency is a two-way street and canons use the same level of restriction.

As for how I think it would go, average Jedi beats an average bender, master bender beats master Jedi, and Avatar pulls something out of their ass to beat an arch-tier Force User because the avatar's plot armor is, intrinsically, that thick.

[Traab]

And those people are making poor arguments, that isn't any reason to use Avatar Movie as the baseline for bender capability at all, because it is a poor representation of what benders can do and I'm sure you, me, and everyone else in this thread knows that. Just like most of us know that suggesting that Jedi are weak or slow is also a poor representation of a Jedis capabilities.

Yeah, but I think the point was, "If you are only going to use the live action jedi films, then we need to do the same for avatar" To basically demonstrate how lame of an argument it is. Not meant to seriously limit the argument to movie verse.

[Kyberwulf]

The problem with the Avatar, is that he isn't just one Bender. He is, what a thousand benders? All there thoughts memories skills and abilities. All rolled into one package. There isn't something like that in almost any canon anywhere, to put it another way. You would need to have a Long line of Force users who are all REALLY good with the force, just sitting inside someone's head.

Even with all that power. Even with all that skill. Even with all that experience. The Avatar can still lose. You can see that from some of the other Avatars that talk to Aang. So, you don't get any real victory points for bringing him up. Nothing I have seen from the Avatar indicates any special defenses. He mostly just throws stuff in the way of on coming traffic. He isn't psychic. He doesn't have impenetrable shields. He isn't super humanly fast or strong.

The main problem I see for the Avatar, is that as long as a Force user can see him. He is vulnerable to being force choked. He is vulnerable to being force pushed.

[cobaltstarfire]

Yeah, but I think the point was, "If you are only going to use the live action jedi films, then we need to do the same for avatar" To basically demonstrate how lame of an argument it is. Not meant to seriously limit the argument to movie verse.

I think the point is just a bad point. The live action Jedi are awesome, I've never seen anything other than the movies and read a few books, but they do really crazy stuff all the flips and hopping around like a flea, being very fast, better than human reflexes, extreme mentally acuity, good at improvisation. This isn't shown as much in the original trilogy, but all of the Jedi we see in it are past their prime, or haven't yet reached it.

Live action Benders from what I've seen are not in any way impressive, but a lot of what they can do in the cartoons could have been done with the level of CGI available.

I think both ends of the VS debate should use whatever is both canon, and most representative of the abilities of each. Though from my perspective, if we're talking about just agility and reflexes I feel that Jedi and Benders are fairly even leaning towards the Jedi (since the average fully fledged Jedi have that mini-prescience thing going on). And in terms of powers, they both have a lot of things in their kit some of them similar, though the Lightsaber gives the Bender something like a razors edge to survive.

I guess in the end I think a Jedi probably would win most of the time, though a Bender will put up a good fight, and depending on the bender may occasionally win depending on time and location. (this mainly plays on the assumption that they both know how the other operates, so the Bender knows the dangers of the lightsaber, ect and the Jedi knows the dangers of something as simple as a puddle of water, or the earth/air)

[Lvl45DM!]

You would need to have a Long line of Force users who are all REALLY good with the force, just sitting inside someone's head.

Or someone literally conceived by the force maybe? Or the son of that guy with the voices of the greatest Jedi ever in his head?


He doesn't have impenetrable shields. He isn't super humanly fast or strong.


Airbenders are always super fast by decreasing airpressure and yes the Avatar state does make you super strong and tough. Korra takes punishement that has knocked her out in previous episode in the Avatar State but kept on going and ripped rocks out of a wall, and lifted a big dude in a chair up over her head.

Not that it REALLY matters, just saying.


The main problem I see for the Avatar, is that as long as a Force user can see him. He is vulnerable to being force choked. He is vulnerable to being force pushed.

Well with Airbender there's probably a work around to being choked, Aang demonstrated the ability to take in alot of air at once and all bending styles require somefocus on breathing. They could last long enough to throw a hit that would distract the Jedi.. And pushing...in the cartoons that I have watched people have run through force pushes and dodged them with enough strength and speed, something benders do have aplenty. I also have never seen a Jedi use the force in two different ways at once or even one after the other, even in the Clone Wars cartoon (not the CGI one never saw it). They use it one way, throwing a thing or or jumping or whatever.
Benders meanwhile can attack and defend simultaneously, Create a rock wall and shoot rocks from it without compromising its integrity, create a water or air globe and shoot blasts from it.
But every Jedi that force chokes, crushes or doesnt anything like that remains almost entirely still during the manuever.

So they do that force choke, the bender with his breathing essentials lasts long enough to throw one hit at the Jedi, and the Jedi either dodges and loses the choke, or gets hit and probably loses the choke in addition to being on fire, blasted away, crushed by a rock or impaled by ice.



OK SCENARIO IDEA

2 Jedi and 2 Sith, vs a WaterBender with Crane Swords, A FireBender with dual dao an Earthbender with Hammers and an Airbender with a glider staff. 2 fights one with no knowledge of each other and a rematch with total knowledge. Location is the Rocky Pillars map from Aang vs Ozai. All four combatants start 50 feet from each other.
Sticking to what is currently Canon for both. So no EU. But the benders can't use the specialized disciplines, like lightning or Metal bending.

[Chen]

Thing is there's the standard plot induced stupidity involved in all the Jedi feats we see. Yoda lifted an X-Wing out of the swamp and managed to stop that giant pillar from crushing Obi-wan at the end of episode 2. If he can produce that much force, forget force choking someone, it'd be ridiculously easy to just force break-someone's-neck (or pretty much every other bone in their body). Even if you weren't just applying that force as an impulse to something directly, if you can lift a 5 ton X-wing in ~3.5 seconds (see https://what-if.xkcd.com/3/ for estimate) you should be able to move a 100kg person with practically no effort. You could raise them 50m into the air in about a quarter second. Hell just the acceleration of that could possibly just kill them outright (~160 Gs) or at the very least cause them to black out (since you're accelerating upwards and driving blood away from the brain).

[Kyberwulf]

Well, you should have just said 4 sith.. apperently. In a Versus battle being a Jedi is a Moot point. Secondly All of the benders are now weaponless. Since the Siths will just rip the weapon out of there hands. Each one will easily just Force Crush all the benders necks...

[Forum Explorer]

Well with Airbender there's probably a work around to being choked, Aang demonstrated the ability to take in alot of air at once and all bending styles require somefocus on breathing. They could last long enough to throw a hit that would distract the Jedi.. And pushing...in the cartoons that I have watched people have run through force pushes and dodged them with enough strength and speed, something benders do have aplenty. I also have never seen a Jedi use the force in two different ways at once or even one after the other, even in the Clone Wars cartoon (not the CGI one never saw it). They use it one way, throwing a thing or or jumping or whatever.
Benders meanwhile can attack and defend simultaneously, Create a rock wall and shoot rocks from it without compromising its integrity, create a water or air globe and shoot blasts from it.
But every Jedi that force chokes, crushes or doesnt anything like that remains almost entirely still during the manuever.

So they do that force choke, the bender with his breathing essentials lasts long enough to throw one hit at the Jedi, and the Jedi either dodges and loses the choke, or gets hit and probably loses the choke in addition to being on fire, blasted away, crushed by a rock or impaled by ice.


In the EU there was a scene were some Jedi apprentices were being force choked by a Sith Force ghost. One of the apprentices used the force to manually move air in and out of their lungs. An airbender could likely do something similar.


Thing is there's the standard plot induced stupidity involved in all the Jedi feats we see. Yoda lifted an X-Wing out of the swamp and managed to stop that giant pillar from crushing Obi-wan at the end of episode 2. If he can produce that much force, forget force choking someone, it'd be ridiculously easy to just force break-someone's-neck (or pretty much every other bone in their body). Even if you weren't just applying that force as an impulse to something directly, if you can lift a 5 ton X-wing in ~3.5 seconds (see https://what-if.xkcd.com/3/ for estimate) you should be able to move a 100kg person with practically no effort. You could raise them 50m into the air in about a quarter second. Hell just the acceleration of that could possibly just kill them outright (~160 Gs) or at the very least cause them to black out (since you're accelerating upwards and driving blood away from the brain).

You've misunderstood the whole 'Size matters not' thing. Moving a person with the force, and moving a giant spaceship takes the exact same amount of effort and gets the same result. The Force isn't a literal force of kinetic energy that the Jedi unleash with a specific max or minimum power.

[Chen]

You've misunderstood the whole 'Size matters not' thing. Moving a person with the force, and moving a giant spaceship takes the exact same amount of effort and gets the same result. The Force isn't a literal force of kinetic energy that the Jedi unleash with a specific max or minimum power.

Yeah well they ****ed that up considering they showed it took a ton more effort for Yoda to move the giant pillar in Episode 2 than the X-wing in Episode 5.

Course if the whole "size doesn't matter" thing were true it'd be even worse since they could just pickup a mountain or something and drop it on people.

[Kyberwulf]

I would like to posit, the movie Last Airbender is Canon. And as such, we see how lame Airbending is in real life compared to the Cartoon show.

[Kato]

Yeah well they ****ed that up considering they showed it took a ton more effort for Yoda to move the giant pillar in Episode 2 than the X-wing in Episode 5.

Course if the whole "size doesn't matter" thing were true it'd be even worse since they could just pickup a mountain or something and drop it on people.
I don't see how the "size (or mass) doesn't matter" could be true. Yeah, jedi ignore the laws of physics, but then what limits them? Why would Palpatine need a peace moon if he could just blow up a planet, since "size doesn't matter"?


I would like to posit, the movie Last Airbender is Canon. And as such, we see how lame Airbending is in real life compared to the Cartoon show.
The movie goes against half the things in he cartoon. It's impossible to consider both canon. That's like accepting all existing contradicting EU stories are canon. (Which is a kind of big problem with it).

[Bobb]

In the EU there was a scene were some Jedi apprentices were being force choked by a Sith Force ghost. One of the apprentices used the force to manually move air in and out of their lungs. An airbender could likely do something similar.

So only 75% of benders are instantly defeated by a common force power.

[Chen]

Wait how does that make any sense? If your throat is crushed, how is the air getting into your lungs? It's not like they're using the force to stop your diaphragm (in which case moving air manually WOULD work).

[Kyberwulf]

It's not just the issue of Crushing throats. You can just ... force break peoples bones. Force push people into the air, then Force pull them down into the ground. There is a reason why they are trained for so long before they are allowed to go out being Jedi. It's so they won't accidentally kill people while trying to save them. It's the reason why control is so stressed by the Jedi Masters.

[Chen]

I was talking about the quote that mentioned some apprentices used the force to manually move air into their lungs while being force choked. That just doesn't make any sense unless they also used the force to open a hole in their trachea's below where they were being choked.

[GloatingSwine]

I would like to posit, the movie Last Airbender is Canon.

Them's fightin' words.

[Forum Explorer]

Wait how does that make any sense? If your throat is crushed, how is the air getting into your lungs? It's not like they're using the force to stop your diaphragm (in which case moving air manually WOULD work).

I think it is physically holding the lungs/or diaphragm closed. Or maybe a mental compulsion telling you that you can't inhale. The story in question didn't exactly go into the physiological details, just that they were choking, and manually moving air worked.


It's not just the issue of Crushing throats. You can just ... force break peoples bones. Force push people into the air, then Force pull them down into the ground. There is a reason why they are trained for so long before they are allowed to go out being Jedi. It's so they won't accidentally kill people while trying to save them. It's the reason why control is so stressed by the Jedi Masters.

Pretty much. Jedi have a lot of option on how to kill someone, including just using the force to control their lightsaber while safely behind cover and having it murder their opponents (Again EU, but it's a reasonable extrapolation from what we see them do.)

[Reddish Mage]

I posit the new movie will show the overwhelming power of the force in a canonical display of awesomeness that settle this discussion.

It's all right there in the title.

[Kyberwulf]

I doubt it will. Luke wasn't very flashy, and I don't know if there is adequately trained people. At most it's gonna be One sith guy, luke and I assume someone is gonna be picked up as an apprentice. If they do make it Starkiller quality shenanigans. That wouldn't feel very organic.

Does anyone else feel it's disingenuous to call the prequel episodes, Jedi in their prime? I mean, supposedly the Dark side is the stronger side because it's shrouding the Jedi's ability to access the Force? So aren't we seeing the Watered down versions of Jedi?

[Epinephrine_Syn]

A trillion Civilians? There Hardly seem to be that many. Also, they all aren't benders. At most I say there is a couple million people on Bender Planet. I think there is a very small portion of that are actual benders.

As a side note, I was reading along to this, and right at the bolded bit I saw something different (http://icons.iconseeker.com/png/fullsize/futurama-vol-1/bender-1.png), and now I can't stop thinking about it.

Speaking of, the consensus I'm reading is Jedi Win V Benders, but how much would that change if there was a Bender Bender?

[Dragonexx]

I'm just gonna leave this here...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxBay3iaKnU

[Seppl]

I'm just gonna leave this here...Fascinating. This is almost a 1:1 rendition of everything that has been said in this thread.

So, how much better would a Jedi master be than our prodigy parawan in a fight? I still maintain that the actual difference in combat proficiency between masters and lower ranked Jedi is not that big. Rank amongst the Jedi is about other things than being good in a force duel. Much to Anakin's annoyance in episode 2.

[Drascin]

Honestly, it depends on starting range. At close range, Ty Lee was an extremely credible threat to prodigy benders, including the Avatar outside of Avatar State, and pretty much any Jedi is faster stronger and more agile than Ty Lee was physically, and has a more decisive method of damage (a lightsaber). I don't think a lot of benders would have a chance against a Jedi that was in semi-close range.

At longer range, benders get a better advantage, due to the refusal of most Jedi to use things like blasters or force chokes, while average benders appear to have precisely zero moral quandaries with throwing a wave at someone and drowning them.

[TeChameleon]

I probably shouldn't get involved in this, but I can't quite resist.

I'm rather wondering why everyone (even those who think that the Jedi would lose, oddly enough) is ignoring what happened to the Jedi Order; i.e. Order 66. The Jedi Order in very nearly its entirety was slaughtered by a surprise attack by Clone Troopers. And before that they were dying in droves to Battle Droids. Y'know, 'Roger roger' and all that.

Because of that, I'd kind of posit that Starkiller-type shenanigans are less 'the Force Unleashed' and more 'the developers' extended Force-powered power fantasies'. What is actually shown on-screen (even counting the Clone Wars cartoon) doesn't really support the idea that the average Jedi is an unstoppable telekinetic precognitive murder machine.

That being said, the major difficulty that we're running into is that we really have no way of knowing (aside from maybe what we can tentatively infer from Order 66 and the statements made on-screen about the Battle Droids killing many Jedi) what exactly an average Jedi, or for that matter, an average bender, can do. Every single one we see on screen is either a mook, an old master, an antagonist, or a protagonist. And there just aren't that many conclusions we can draw from that. The mooks by their very nature are going to be dropping like flies, the old master is going to be just that, and both the an- and pro-tagonists are going to be 'special', by virtue of plot armour if nothing else.

Maybe evaluate them against one another's mooks? How well would a lone Jedi fare against a dozen firebending mooks or Dai Li agents? How well would a bender of any variety do against a dozen Stormtroopers?

[Seppl]

Maybe evaluate them against one another's mooks? How well would a lone Jedi fare against a dozen firebending mooks or Dai Li agents? How well would a bender of any variety do against a dozen Stormtroopers?Two total curbstomps for the lone heroes. Firebending mooks have similar abilities as the Star Wars battle droids that are cut down by the dozens. Stormtroopers are legendary in their incompetence, especially in regard to hitting moving targets or dodging anything.

However, two remarks:
1. Dai Li are not mooks. The earthbending mooks guarding the palace are not Dai Li. I think we only ever see Dai Li fight seriously on two occasions: Defending their headquarters under the lake and defending Azula during the eclipse. Both times they are able to at least hold their own against Team Avatar for a while. In fact, I would say, they are a pretty good representation for (maybe slightly above) average benders. Their style is just a lot less flashy than the usual earthbending, going for fine control instead of sheer power.

2. Even the greenest Jedi adept is a deadly one-man-army. A firebending mook (and all other bending varieties are similar) is just a regular guy who can shoot a small fireball when he performs a little dance for a second or two. I do not think anybody has any doubts about the outcome if these lowliest practitioners of their respective arts meet in battle.

[Kyberwulf]

Again, I say this. The problem I have with that video.. it's a Padawan vs. an AVATAR. Who also, in the video, lost until she got the god mode turned on. The culmination of many lifetimes of masteries of various Elemental types. That would be like me saying, who would win in a fight, Starkiller vs. Katara at the end of season two.

The Avatar is hardly just a Bender. The equivalent would be a Force user, who had access to 1,000 years of other Prodigy Force Users abilities and Experiences.

And yes, there is a Huge difference between a Padawan and a Jedi Master. Otherwise Yoda wouldn't be held in such High regard. It's like saying who is better. A grunt fresh out of Boot, or a Combat vet special op who has seen more then a couple tours.

The whole Order 66 thing to me is questionable. In that apparently, during that time, the Force was being muddled by Darth Sideous.

[MLai]

And yes, there is a Huge difference between a Padawan and a Jedi Master. Otherwise Yoda wouldn't be held in such High regard.
In terms of what actually happens on screen, not really. Look at all the action scenes which Asoka found herself in during that 30-mins-long vid... Fighting enemy force users without giving ground, dodging plasma miniguns from an attack aircraft while sprinting along a gantry... Those are the same things a Jedi Master would be doing in her place, with no more or no less competence.

The only time her Padawan status would be apparent is if she squared off against a named enemy who is narratively stronger, at which point she'll suddenly lose competence points and job to her opponent as required by plot.

Yoda is held in high regard because he's wise, not because he's a green jumping bean with a lightsaber. F U Lucas. You ruined Yoda. All the fanbois who actually liked that scene in AotC should be ashamed of themselves.

[Kyberwulf]

I guess that being the case, I don't even see why they should even bother with Padawans in the first place. Just go straight from Jedi Preschool to sitting on the Jedi Council. Skill, knowledge and experience account for nothing. All that matters is appearance.

[GloatingSwine]

Yoda is held in high regard because he's wise, not because he's a green jumping bean with a lightsaber. F U Lucas. You ruined Yoda. All the fanbois who actually liked that scene in AotC should be ashamed of themselves.

Well he was in the middle of ruining everything else...


(I maintain that the only reason people think RotS is the least worst is that AotC lowered our expectations so far...)

[Forum Explorer]

Well he was in the middle of ruining everything else...


(I maintain that the only reason people think RotS is the least worst is that AotC lowered our expectations so far...)

I think it's because the absolutely god awful romance was toned down and less god awful.

[Reddish Mage]

I probably shouldn't get involved in this, but I can't quite resist.

I'm rather wondering why everyone (even those who think that the Jedi would lose, oddly enough) is ignoring what happened to the Jedi Order; i.e. Order 66. The Jedi Order in very nearly its entirety was slaughtered by a surprise attack by Clone Troopers. And before that they were dying in droves to Battle Droids. Y'know, 'Roger roger' and all that.

Because of that, I'd kind of posit that Starkiller-type shenanigans are less 'the Force Unleashed' and more 'the developers' extended Force-powered power fantasies'. What is actually shown on-screen (even counting the Clone Wars cartoon) doesn't really support the idea that the average Jedi is an unstoppable telekinetic precognitive murder machine.

That being said, the major difficulty that we're running into is that we really have no way of knowing (aside from maybe what we can tentatively infer from Order 66 and the statements made on-screen about the Battle Droids killing many Jedi) what exactly an average Jedi, or for that matter, an average bender, can do. Every single one we see on screen is either a mook, an old master, an antagonist, or a protagonist. And there just aren't that many conclusions we can draw from that. The mooks by their very nature are going to be dropping like flies, the old master is going to be just that, and both the an- and pro-tagonists are going to be 'special', by virtue of plot armour if nothing else.

Maybe evaluate them against one another's mooks? How well would a lone Jedi fare against a dozen firebending mooks or Dai Li agents? How well would a bender of any variety do against a dozen Stormtroopers?

See this setup nicely encapsulates all the errors made about Jedi. Yes, Order 66 shows that Jedi, even the great skilled, are attacked from behind when not expecting it by trusted allied while their senses are muddled, are capable of being killed...even Obi and Yoda came close, although the EU story is that Obi-Wan survived because Cody missed on purpose.

Similarly the Avatar would be killed immediately from an unexpected light saber to the back.

The story that Jedi drop from droids is not the only thing we know about Jedi. We know each one is a highly trained one-to-two man army that get sent to quell entire planets. We know that the Trade League was in fear of learning that two Jedi were on their ship. We know that 10,000 Jedi was all the army the Republic used to keep the peace over the entire Galaxy prior to the Clone Wars.

We don't need Starkiller-level tricks for Jedi to take out benders. It is pointed out numerous times that "average benders" aren't even mook level, they aren't even combat trained.

The notion that typical Jedi Knights simply aren't all that impressive, which is why combat-trained but otherwise unexceptional benders could take them on, is being constantly advanced, the same argument, that Jedi represent the peak of individual capability augmented by superhuman abilities sent on impossible missions,said again and again. It's getting tiresome at this point.

[Forum Explorer]

I probably shouldn't get involved in this, but I can't quite resist.

I'm rather wondering why everyone (even those who think that the Jedi would lose, oddly enough) is ignoring what happened to the Jedi Order; i.e. Order 66. The Jedi Order in very nearly its entirety was slaughtered by a surprise attack by Clone Troopers. And before that they were dying in droves to Battle Droids. Y'know, 'Roger roger' and all that.

Because of that, I'd kind of posit that Starkiller-type shenanigans are less 'the Force Unleashed' and more 'the developers' extended Force-powered power fantasies'. What is actually shown on-screen (even counting the Clone Wars cartoon) doesn't really support the idea that the average Jedi is an unstoppable telekinetic precognitive murder machine.

That being said, the major difficulty that we're running into is that we really have no way of knowing (aside from maybe what we can tentatively infer from Order 66 and the statements made on-screen about the Battle Droids killing many Jedi) what exactly an average Jedi, or for that matter, an average bender, can do. Every single one we see on screen is either a mook, an old master, an antagonist, or a protagonist. And there just aren't that many conclusions we can draw from that. The mooks by their very nature are going to be dropping like flies, the old master is going to be just that, and both the an- and pro-tagonists are going to be 'special', by virtue of plot armour if nothing else.

Maybe evaluate them against one another's mooks? How well would a lone Jedi fare against a dozen firebending mooks or Dai Li agents? How well would a bender of any variety do against a dozen Stormtroopers?

From a surprise attack from those who they thought were their allies, while they were in the middle of battle. Oh, and it came from thousands of clones. There aren't many who can survive that sort of attack.

Yes, battle droids can kill Jedi. They only out number the Jedi some 10 000 to 1.

If the benders had a massive numbers advantage, I'd say you have a point. As is it's actually more impressive that this is how much force is needed to kill the Jedi, and even then there were survivors.

[Reddish Mage]

I probably shouldn't get involved in this, but I can't quite resist.

I'm rather wondering why everyone (even those who think that the Jedi would lose, oddly enough) is ignoring what happened to the Jedi Order; i.e. Order 66. The Jedi Order in very nearly its entirety was slaughtered by a surprise attack by Clone Troopers. And before that they were dying in droves to Battle Droids. Y'know, 'Roger roger' and all that.

Because of that, I'd kind of posit that Starkiller-type shenanigans are less 'the Force Unleashed' and more 'the developers' extended Force-powered power fantasies'. What is actually shown on-screen (even counting the Clone Wars cartoon) doesn't really support the idea that the average Jedi is an unstoppable telekinetic precognitive murder machine.

That being said, the major difficulty that we're running into is that we really have no way of knowing (aside from maybe what we can tentatively infer from Order 66 and the statements made on-screen about the Battle Droids killing many Jedi) what exactly an average Jedi, or for that matter, an average bender, can do. Every single one we see on screen is either a mook, an old master, an antagonist, or a protagonist. And there just aren't that many conclusions we can draw from that. The mooks by their very nature are going to be dropping like flies, the old master is going to be just that, and both the an- and pro-tagonists are going to be 'special', by virtue of plot armour if nothing else.

Maybe evaluate them against one another's mooks? How well would a lone Jedi fare against a dozen firebending mooks or Dai Li agents? How well would a bender of any variety do against a dozen Stormtroopers?


From a surprise attack from those who they thought were their allies, while they were in the middle of battle. Oh, and it came from thousands of clones. There aren't many who can survive that sort of attack.

Yes, battle droids can kill Jedi. They only out number the Jedi some 10 000 to 1.

If the benders had a massive numbers advantage, I'd say you have a point. As is it's actually more impressive that this is how much force is needed to kill the Jedi, and even then there were survivors.

That is a better point that, in a scenario that put the Jedi against THE ENTIRE AVATAR WORLD with nothing but their lightsabers we would have to bring in EU or something from the Clone Wars series (again canon) to say for sure the Jedi would win...but if the Jedi have their full resources: ships, tropedos, thermal detenators, blasters, clone trooper army with flying air to ground assault and orbital weapons, it is no contest.

On the other hand, a droid army vs benders, is also no contest. Regardless of whether Star Wars metal is "pure" or refined enough to not be bendable, the droid's technology is thousands of years ahead including shields, heavy assault vehicles, air to ground...and that's not even counting orbital bombardment.

Although it's hard to imagine the droid's as objects of terror: fear us roger roger ::click:: ::click::

[Dragonexx]

Yoda is held in high regard because he's wise, not because he's a green jumping bean with a lightsaber. F U Lucas. You ruined Yoda. All the fanbois who actually liked that scene in AotC should be ashamed of themselves.

At the risk of turning this into another bull**** flame war, I ask why one can't like both sides of the character. Yoda was stated to be a "great warrior" anyways in V.

[Xondoure]

The Avatar state absolutely manhandles any Jedi. Master versus master would be interesting. Anything else and the Jedi almost certainly win. Why? The Avatar's air shield is going to keep out any sort of ranged attack, he can probably easily redirect a blaster bolt with fire bending, and assuming transparency with the force, the Avatar's own mastery of the elements inside and around his body will prevent things like force choke. Which basically leaves stuff like Aang's compressed earth railgun fire to turn the Jedi into paste considering lightsabers have a much harder time deflecting things that aren't blaster bolts.

The force was never really intended to be a planet leveling force, that stuff is just power creep in its purest form. The whole point of the force, in my view, is the subtle control over destiny that it exerts. When twisted to the dark side, you get Darth Sidious orchestrating the fall of the Republic. Not by destroying planets with the force a la deathstar, but with the subtle manipulation of hearts and minds. The twisting of fears that turns Anakin into Darth Vader, and brings the Jedi Order to its decapitated knees. When its the "light side" (never actually called that, just the force, and the dark side of) you get Luke Skywalker, always just where he needs to be to turn the tide of a war whose outcome seems inevitable.

Yes, they also have superhuman reflexes, precog to dodge and deflect blasters, and impressive telekinetic strength with unbeatable blades. Master benders, however, are arguably just as talented as the Jedi at reading their opponents attacks and knowing what they're about to do next. Just look at Bumi's description of neutral jing, or Toph's entire schtick to see it in action. At that point, it's whether the benders can avoid getting hit by lightsabers, which seems possible given they're at least as mobile as the Jedi. and whether they can land a hit of their own, which also seems possible given that lightsabers are not meant to block attacks such as a giant wall of water, or pressurized air that can't be easily parried.

That said, average benders would be cut down like flies. It takes serious training to go toe to toe with precognition, although we know even in universe for Star Wars it can be done.

[Anteros]

At the risk of turning this into another bull**** flame war, I ask why one can't like both sides of the character. Yoda was stated to be a "great warrior" anyways in V.

Only the internet deals in absolutes. :smallbiggrin:

[Traab]

Only the internet deals in absolutes. :smallbiggrin:

That line ticked me off more than most of the prequels combined. The sheer level of illogic involved in obi wan saying that just drove me nuts.

"Oh, ONLY a sith deals in absolutes?"

"Thats right!"

"Welcome to the club then darth obi."

[TeChameleon]

From a surprise attack from those who they thought were their allies, while they were in the middle of battle. Oh, and it came from thousands of clones. There aren't many who can survive that sort of attack.

H'okeh... er, not trying to pick on you, Forum Explorer, you just made a statement that I wanted to respond to directly.

Anyhow, something about that statement bugged me a bit, and I went and took a look at what was actually shown of Order 66 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCuUIkEtJjo) in the movie.

Ki-Adi Mundi (the Jedi Master... on the Council, no less... who looks a bit like a conehead)- we never see more than 7 troopers on-screen when he was killed. And he just stood there and looked at them for nearly three full seconds while they pointed their guns at him and made nonsensical clicky noises with them (seriously, what were those clicky noises supposed to be, in-universe? I get that for the audience they were audio shorthand for 'these troopers are pointing their guns with the intent to cause harm', but they were in mid-battle, so the clicks wouldn't be them disengaging their safeties, and blaster rifles don't have slides or hammers... uhm... what was even clicking?). Oh, and there weren't more troopers off-screen- we had a long establishing shot that showed them on a bridge, and those seven troopers were all that were anywhere near Ki-Adi Mundi, aside from an indistinct shape that could have been a vehicle of some kind, but even if it was an armed vehicle, it clearly did not fire while the Jedi Master was being killed. Oh, and if anyone feels like being pedantic, there was also an AT-TE on-screen, but it exploded before Order 66 was issued. He deflected roughly three blaster bolts, taking out one clone, and then went down.

Aayla Secura (Twi'lek Jedi Master)- didn't even have time to look startled before getting shot in the back by roughly a half-dozen troopers (we never see more than about five on-screen shooting)... despite there clearly being hundreds behind her in the establishing shot. I guess the Clone Troopers don't believe in overkill..? Aside from the fact that they kept on shooting her long after she was dead..? Uhm... whatever.

Plo Kloon (Jedi Master, also on the Council, wore a breather mask)- shot down by a single *-wing (or whatever you call those Clone Fighters), without anything else around. This despite having gotten out of far worse situations than that, usually with a win, before that point >.<

Stass Allie (Jedi Master, Council member, looked basically human except for really bright purple eyes)- two clone troopers that were riding speeder bikes alongside hers dropped back and blew her away with all of four shots each. No visible reaction from her (well, aside from dying, obviously), despite there once again being a good few seconds between them dropping back and opening fire.

... having watched that through again, the Jedi appear to have suffered a massive case of plot-induced stupidity. In every case we saw, their deaths made almost no sense (and why didn't any droids join in on the shooting of the Jedi? They just kind of... stopped firing... when Order 66 was issued). But, well, that's what we've got to work with.

Please note, I'm not really counting video-game Jedi feats; they suffer from a fairly serious case of Gameplay and Story Segregation (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GameplayAndStorySegregation) (warning: TVTropes link). I mean, we don't take First Person Shooters as being seriously representative of what a single soldier can do; if you compare movie Jedi with game Jedi, there's some stuff that's pretty clearly exaggerated on the part of the game Jedi (for example, the sheer number of foes they can take on simultaneously, and for that matter, the amount of punishment they can take).

As a side note, to clear up a misconception: if you are a bender, you are a martial artist. Full stop, no exceptions. That's the way that bending works. Even the lowliest Firebending mook is a proficient practicioner of the Northern Shaolin style of Kung Fu. Those guys running the mail in Omashu? Hung Gar-style Kung Fu fighters (and apparently have some sort of superhuman strength, based on what's shown for Earthbenders...).

*shrug* I'm not even sure who I think would win, necessarily- it depends incredibly heavily on who's in play and where they're at. I just get a bit tired of the 'Jedi are an all-powerful beatstick' mentality that often pops up in these vs. matches.

[Dragonexx]

I've always thought it was the sheer shock at soldiers they trusted betraying them.

[Seppl]

On the other hand, a droid army vs benders, is also no contest. Regardless of whether Star Wars metal is "pure" or refined enough to not be bendable, the droid's technology is thousands of years ahead including shields, heavy assault vehicles, air to ground...and that's not even counting orbital bombardment.
Wait, what? When you started with "no contest" I was sure that the next sentence would be something about how pathetic the droids are. They use pre-Napoleonic tactics; they are slow and bad at shooting; blaster bolts travel slow and do not actually do that much damage; even the comic relief army in episode 1 did reasonably well against them. And you say they not only have a chance but it is not even a contest when you pitch these guys against a semi-modern steampunk army with humongous mecha that can level a small city block in one shot? The only thing they have going for them is airpower, because Avatarverse only has double decker planes. The droids may have sci-fi technology but any advantage they might have (as I said, the combat value of a blaster does not seem that impressive) is squandered by major stupidity and incompetence on their parts. On the other hand, most Avatarverse military leaders are pretty competent in both, strategy and tactics (though most of them are bad at politics and diplomacy).

[Traab]

I've always thought it was the sheer shock at soldiers they trusted betraying them.

It was this plus, as im pretty sure was established in the films, palpatine had been clouding their senses for so long while masking his rise to power that they were fighting half blind basically. Their ability to sense danger, their precog skills, which is connected to being able to see the future which palpatine REALLY didnt want happening, caused this to work. Several of the jedi never even knew it was happening till they died. Those that DID figure it out were still shocked and caught way off guard. These jedi had fought alongside the clones for potentially years by now. They had made friends and comrades with them, saved each others lives in many cases. Then BANG a switch is flipped and they murder the jedi.

[Kyberwulf]

Regarding Order 66. It wasn't just the shock of the Clones betraying them. It was also the death of so many Jedi. It wasn't just the Jedi who died on screen. It was the death of almost the entire order as I understand it. I think there is a handful of Jedi left after that. If you watch Yoda, he looks like he is physically being assaulted when he is almost killed. It's not just the Muddling of the Force, or the Shock of Betrayal, or the death of so many Jedi. It's all of those combined that made them so easy to kill.

Regarding the Avatar and benders in general. I think it's being blown out of proportion as well. You guys are attributing Precog level reaction and super human level Skills, and physical abilities to them. I think its because the nature of the Medium of the show. Of course they look fast and strong. It's a cartoon. It's made to look cool. I think it's a bit disingenuous to claim that Jedi aren't capable because of the Medium, then saying Benders are because of their medium. I personally don't think the Benders are any more faster or skilled then normal humans. Granted they aren't slouches. I would say they aren't any better their real life counterparts. The Move Last Airbender, I think more accurately ascribe the capabilities of "real" life benders.

On bender's martial arts. Just because they know martial arts. It doesn't equate Jet Li, Bruce Lee, level of skill or training. There are crappy Martial Artists that are still call Kung fu Practitioners.

[MLai]

It was this plus, as im pretty sure was established in the films, palpatine had been clouding their senses for so long while masking his rise to power that they were fighting half blind basically..
This is BS. If the Jedi were so half-blind, then how did they survive in a battlefield up until that point, deflecting blaster bolts coming from the entire droid army? Obi Wan didn't look the least bit "blinded" while casually deflecting bolts all movie long.

Some Jedi were shot in the back, and you can excuse that as their long-term precog being "clouded". But Mr. Conehead Jedi was staring right at the 7 troopers aiming rifles at him. His split-second precog was surely working, just as Obi Wan's was. How come he went down like a chump?

It's all Narrativium. Jedi can be just as incompetent as a mook when plot requires it. There's nothing concrete which truly elevates a Jedi above a skilled bender that plot cannot excuse.

[Kyberwulf]

You didn't read my posts. The Jedi where dying and it was affecting other Jedi. A lot of them where confused. They knew their friends where dying. They didn't know how or why. Yoda only survived because he never trusted the clones in the first place. That part in the movie wasn't sequential. It was all happening at the same moment.

[MLai]

You didn't read my posts. The Jedi where dying and it was affecting other Jedi. A lot of them where confused. They knew their friends where dying. They didn't know how or why. Yoda only survived because he never trusted the clones in the first place. That part in the movie wasn't sequential. It was all happening at the same moment.
My point is it doesn't affect their battlefield point-precog. Jedis were also dying left and right in the arena battle in AotC, but that didn't affect other Jedi, right next to them. The Jedi aren't some sort of hive mind which suffers psychic backlash like Tyranids.

When Yoda spoke of the Force being clouded, he was specifically referring to prophecy powers, not whether Jedi can still deflect blaster shots.

[Kyberwulf]

Ah yeah, Cause they KNEW why they where dying. They where mentally prepared for that. It wasn't just the prophecy power of the force. It was the force in general. I think you are purposely tying to troll Mlai.

[Bobb]

It's all Narrativium. Jedi can be just as incompetent as a mook when plot requires it. There's nothing concrete which truly elevates a Jedi above a skilled bender that plot cannot excuse.

Yeah, we've got some turds because not all movies are perfect.

Case in point, M. N. Shamedman's Avatar, where earth benders can be imprisoned by putting walls around the ground. The same ground used as the main weapon of earth benders.

[Talakeal]

Speaking of, the consensus I'm reading is Jedi Win V Benders, but how much would that change if there was a Bender Bender?

He's fifty percent bender!

[Kyberwulf]

Well, the Avatar:the Last Airbender movie, is still Canon. and shows how awesome bending would be if it where real.

[MLai]

Well, the Avatar:the Last Airbender movie, is still Canon. and shows how awesome bending would be if it where real.
You're the only one trying to troll here, LMAO.

[Seppl]

Regarding the Avatar and benders in general. I think it's being blown out of proportion as well. You guys are attributing Precog level reaction and super human level Skills, and physical abilities to them. I think its because the nature of the Medium of the show. Of course they look fast and strong. It's a cartoon. It's made to look cool. I think it's a bit disingenuous to claim that Jedi aren't capable because of the Medium, then saying Benders are because of their medium. I personally don't think the Benders are any more faster or skilled then normal humans. Granted they aren't slouches. I would say they aren't any better their real life counterparts. The Move Last Airbender, I think more accurately ascribe the capabilities of "real" life benders.

So, you are saying, we should just make stuff up, instead of using the primary sources?

[TeChameleon]

M. Night Shamallamadingdong's "Avatar: The Last Time We Let This Idiot Touch One of Our IPs" can't be canon along with the original animated series, given that it's a botched rehash of the first season. So yeah- ignored.

Avatarverse benders clearly have some superhuman abilities beyond their elemental manipulation- waterbenders have healing, earthbenders have demonstrated clearly superhuman strength (with the most extreme example that comes to mind offhand being Toph's holding up of the entirety of a rather large building in the episode 'The Library'), and airbenders have demonstrated some spectacularly superhuman agility- the only ones that don't seem to have some sort of secondary non-elemental ability are the firebenders, at least as far as I can recall. And all of them have shown wuxia-level wire fu leaps and flips, easily the equal of any Jedi seen, whether they were live-action or animated.

This is a very, very close fight; neither side can defend themselves adequately against the other outside of dodging- the Jedi have their precognition, but the benders have the advantage of range. Lightsabres cannot block fire streams, air blasts, water whips/jets, or boulders the size of minivans; and nothing the benders can muster is likely to even slow down a lightsabre, with the possible exception of Toph's starmetal, which... never actually got used for anything that I can remember :smallconfused: (yes, I know Sokka's sword was made out of the stuff, but Toph kept a chunk too, and that's what never really got used for anything that I can recall) And in any case, that's not too likely to come up, since it's quite rare, and Joe Q. Random earthbender is probably not going to have access to any.

To be totally honest, this really looks like a game of rocket tag to me- whoever shoots first, 'wins', and even that's not a guarantee that they won't be taken out too.

... unless firebenders actually can bend ligthsabre blades, in which case the Jedi are totally hosed :smalltongue: (note: not something I consider likely, just something I found slightly amusing)

[Kyberwulf]

You can't ignore canon material just because you don't like it. Otherwise Jedi's can ignore canon material, and use EU shenanigans. The movie was an attempt at bringing Benders to real life. Wither you like it or not. I maintain that the appear to have superhero level athleticism, due to the nature of the medium it's in. It's a Cartoon, based off anime. By it's very nature it's going to flashy and realistically disproportional. I mean it's also logical inconsistent. With general practitioners going from it looking taking skill and focus to perform correctly. They go from that to them pretty much just throwing water balloons around. By the end of it, they aren't bending the elements. They are casting spells.

Also, Benders don't have distance advantage. Force Pushes, Force Pulls, and force chokes can be done at range too. Since the level of experience, skill or training matters not. All Jedi, once they are done in Jedi Preschool apparently now have the same powers and skill sets as Mace Windu, Master Yoda, Anakin, The Emporer, Darth Maul. That latter three are pretty important. Since most of the time they use the Force on their enemies. They almost seem almost nonchalant, almost blase about how difficult it is to use the Force for offense. Not only that, throwing around elements isn't the same as throwing them at light speed. It takes time to perform the motions, time for the elements to start moving, time for the elements to travel the distance to The Jedi. Which Jedi seem to dodge that kind of stuff pretty easy.

[GloatingSwine]

You can't ignore canon material just because you don't like it.

The movie directly and specifically contradicts events of the actual canon.

It is not canon, it is dismissed as a source.

[Kyberwulf]

It happens all the time. It happen so much in Star Wars. Do I have to mention the Prequel Trilogy. What is canon now, is canon. It happened. You say it contradicts actual events. I say it updates canon.

[GloatingSwine]

It happens all the time. It happen so much in Star Wars. Do I have to mention the Prequel Trilogy. What is canon now, is canon. It happened. You say it contradicts actual events. I say it updates canon.

I say you're wrong, and since I'm right, you are wrong.

[Kyberwulf]

Only sith deals in absolutes.

[Traab]

Only sith deals in absolutes.

So Kyber admits to being a sith. Now it all becomes clear.

Anyways, back to mlai, you are picking single portions of the explanation and declaring that since that one part isnt enough to explain it all, then the whole thing is wrong. It was a combination of everything, clouded precog, the shock of betrayal, the shock of feeling THOUSANDS of fellow jedi dying across the galaxy, all of that together is why only a bare handful of jedi managed to survive. As was said, the jedi dying at the arena didnt cause this because first off, they knew where their fellows were, secondly, they werent dying by the dozens or hundreds every second, thirdly, they werent betrayed by trusted comrades en masse.

[TeChameleon]

You can't ignore canon material just because you don't like it. Otherwise Jedi's can ignore canon material, and use EU shenanigans. The movie was an attempt at bringing Benders to real life. Wither you like it or not.
... the movie being an attempt at bringing Benders to real life does not mean it was a successful attempt. Just because it exists does not mean it is an update of canon. And even if you want to argue that the live-action movie is more recent than the original animated series, thus the current canon... The Legend of Korra is more recent than the live-action movie and ignores it utterly, so canon is re-aligned with the original animated series.

The Avatar: The Last Airbender live-action movie was pathetic rubbish, please stop trying to use it as evidence supporting the supposed 'weakness' of Benders. It's just trollish. It's like someone using the Star Wars holiday special to argue that Star Wars is lousy. Star Wars is not lousy, it's one of the best Space Opera ever made, and the existence of garbage bearing the Star Wars label does not diminish that.


I maintain that the appear to have superhero level athleticism, due to the nature of the medium it's in. It's a Cartoon, based off anime. By it's very nature it's going to flashy and realistically disproportional. I mean it's also logical inconsistent. With general practitioners going from it looking taking skill and focus to perform correctly. They go from that to them pretty much just throwing water balloons around. By the end of it, they aren't bending the elements. They are casting spells.
Much to absolutely no-one's surprise, I'd tend to disagree with you on Bender's apparent athleticism being an artefact of their medium. Non-Benders, even highly skilled and athletic ones, like Suki, do not show the same level of wuxia-esque wirefu. Suki tends to rely more on Jackie-Chan-esque freerunning-style shenanigans to get around, despite clearly being shown to be the equal of an average Bender in combat (please bear in mind that I am going off memory here; if I am shown to be wrong on this point, I will do my best to accept it gracefully).

And even if you compare Benders strictly to animated Jedi, their apparent abilities in terms of agility and whatnot are roughly equal.

And I'm not sure what you're saying with that last statement; I don't recall any finale (non-Avatar-State) bending happening that is visually inconsistent with the earlier bending, aside from the Benders in question being more skilled at it, obviously. It looks more fluid, sure, but the elemental stuff is still happening in response to their movements.


Also, Benders don't have distance advantage. Force Pushes, Force Pulls, and force chokes can be done at range too.
Benders have a distance advantage in that their primary attack methods- the elemental bending- is done at range. Jedi do not have that advantage because their primary attack method- the lightsabre- is a melee weapon. The fact that they have secondary attack methods which are ranged does not alter that.

Also, for the record, Force Chokes do not appear to be a factor in a fight against a mobile opponent. To the best of my knowledge, Force Choke has never even been attempted against a moving target. It is an intimidation/punishment tool, not a weapon.

Force Pull is only ever used to disarm opponents/retrieve dropped weapons (again, to the best of my knowledge). So, not a weapon.

And Force Push can be dodged- in point of fact, at least in the Clone Wars cartoons, the Force Pushes appear to be generated and 'thrown' at roughly the same speed as the elements that Benders launch. Ditto for Lightsabre throws, for that matter- it's the spinning blade that does the damage, not the speed of the throw. In whatever case, going by what's shown on screen, both would seem to be within tolerance (i.e. in roughly the same ballpark in terms of speed as the attacks that they are used to dealing with) for Benders.


Not only that, throwing around elements isn't the same as throwing them at light speed. It takes time to perform the motions, time for the elements to start moving, time for the elements to travel the distance to The Jedi. Which Jedi seem to dodge that kind of stuff pretty easy.
... how often do we actually see Jedi dodge projectiles in the source material (Clone Wars and Rebels included)? Honest question, since when I thought about it, I couldn't remember... well, any. From what I can recall, they typically just want to block everything with their lightsabre, and as I said previously, that's not gonna work with the kinds of things that Benders launch at them.

[MLai]

Anyways, back to mlai, you are picking single portions of the explanation and declaring that since that one part isnt enough to explain it all, then the whole thing is wrong.
No, I'm watching a movie like it's a movie, taking in what the movie was telling me for the purposes of the movie.

The scene of Order 66 very obviously did not hinge on Darth Sidious taking advantage of the shock of some galactic psychic feedback to take out the Jedi all at once. Order 66 very obviously worked because the Jedi were betrayed en masse by their own troops, and since they weren't flightless Kal-Els like some would like to believe in this thread, they went down hard.

The only instance of psychic feedback was with Yoda, and the only cinematic purpose of portraying it was to show that it clued him in on the impending betrayal, allowing him to act in time. All the rest of the Jedi deaths were very obviously due to the Jedi not being Superman, rather than them all losing their battlefield precog for a few minutes. None of them showed any discomfort except the discomfort of being shot at. There were no migraines, drunken disorientation, epileptic fits, or what have you.

All the convoluted "Oh no it was psychic backlash" excuses come after, when the SW fanboys became determined to explain why their superheroes couldn't handle a little backstabbing. None of that is actually shown in the movie, or in any SW movie.

[Kitten Champion]

I think you should just compare The Clone Wars movie/cartoon and SW: Rebels to Avatar: The Last Airbender and Legend of Korra, as they share a medium while being truly representative of their respective universes visually in the least fettered way possible, without also being constrained by gameplay mechanics nor being so insubstantial as to be questionable outliers in a larger oeuvre.

It seems more fair and productive than trying to parse out all the complexities of inter-media comparisons.

[Kyberwulf]

Wither it was good, or bad. Doesn't matter. If it was an amazing Movie that was totally ba. You would be using it here. The only reason you don't want to count it, is because you didn't like it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzkL7TsEeK4 about two minutes in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqLW7D2P1HE

Yup. Totally normal human level abilities.

As for Jedi battles.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dh0spaxtvTU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8uXBdCIsrU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctN5s8z3E8E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hCcr-SZBL0
Especially start at 29 minutes in.

Seriously, the ease and speed you can force push people, and force choke is insane. Also. It looks like when you are being force choked you can't do anything else. The only way you see people really get out of it, is if you are released or something happens to break the concentration of the user. You can see how fast and easy it is to disable someone at 32:25 minutes in. The only reason it's really a problem most of the time, is cause there is usually other stuff interrupting the fights, or one of the combatants don't want to kill the other ones.

[TeChameleon]

Wither it was good, or bad. Doesn't matter. If it was an amazing Movie that was totally ba. You would be using it here. The only reason you don't want to count it, is because you didn't like it.
And the only reason you want to count it is because you think it somehow lends credence to your thinking that Benders are weaker than the animated series shows.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzkL7TsEeK4 about two minutes in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqLW7D2P1HE

Yup. Totally normal human level abilities.
Honestly, the only part of those sequences that would look out of place in a Jackie Chan movie (on the part of the non-Benders, of course) was Ty Lee's sudden casual forty-foot backflip at the end.


As for Jedi battles.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dh0spaxtvTU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8uXBdCIsrU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctN5s8z3E8E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hCcr-SZBL0
Especially start at 29 minutes in.

Seriously, the ease and speed you can force push people, and force choke is insane. Also. It looks like when you are being force choked you can't do anything else. The only way you see people really get out of it, is if you are released or something happens to break the concentration of the user. You can see how fast and easy it is to disable someone at 32:25 minutes in. The only reason it's really a problem most of the time, is cause there is usually other stuff interrupting the fights, or one of the combatants don't want to kill the other ones.
Force Choke is once again used on stationary targets. They weren't jumping around, they were in a tightly confined space and had stopped for a moment. And I have no idea why no-one even tries to get out of a Force Choke, it really doesn't make a lot of sense.

And your list of links there shows that Jedi simply aren't as far beyond normal human combatants as you keep claiming. Mandalorians, Clone Troopers, Bounty Hunters, those weird electric-stick droids, and the like can all pose a credible threat to them, even in solo combat (speaking of those weird electric stick droids... don't remember what they're called and don't care... why didn't they just build half as many of them and make the whole droid out of the same stuff- presumably Cortosis- as their stick? They'd be a heck of a lot bigger threat to the Jedi then).

Of course, the same series also had a prepubescent Boba Fett as a credible threat to the Jedi, so... uhm... yeah.

... would you still be arguing this fervently if the topic were Mandalorians vs. Avatarverse Benders, Kyberwulf?

[Forum Explorer]

Force Choke is once again used on stationary targets. They weren't jumping around, they were in a tightly confined space and had stopped for a moment. And I have no idea why no-one even tries to get out of a Force Choke, it really doesn't make a lot of sense.

And your list of links there shows that Jedi simply aren't as far beyond normal human combatants as you keep claiming. Mandalorians, Clone Troopers, Bounty Hunters, those weird electric-stick droids, and the like can all pose a credible threat to them, even in solo combat (speaking of those weird electric stick droids... don't remember what they're called and don't care... why didn't they just build half as many of them and make the whole droid out of the same stuff- presumably Cortosis- as their stick? They'd be a heck of a lot bigger threat to the Jedi then).

Of course, the same series also had a prepubescent Boba Fett as a credible threat to the Jedi, so... uhm... yeah.

... would you still be arguing this fervently if the topic were Mandalorians vs. Avatarverse Benders, Kyberwulf?

No, they were certainly moving around. More so then the benders in the fights I've watched (Not counting Aang, his whole shtick is jumping around and dodging like crazy)

Well I'm 20 minutes into the links posted, and none of the opponents have really been a threat by themselves, in fact, usually we see something like half a dozen troopers/droids get casually cut down while they are fighting another jedi/sith. Only Grievous' honor guard and assassin droids manage to even have an impact, and even then, Grievous is needed for the final blow.

The first time I see an actual one on one fight between Obi-Wan and the Mandalonian with the black lightsaber, Obi-Wan makes him look like a joke. Sure he gets in a few good punches and kicks, but Obi-Wan doesn't even bother with his lightsaber at the end and finishes it off with dodging 3 pointblank homing rockets.

(As for droid design, it's a joke on how bad it is I agree. The only explanation I think is passable is that the droids needed to be a threat so the clone armies could form, and to demand the attention of the jedi, but not so strong that they'd actually win and take over the Republic)

Haven't gotten to Baby Boba yet.

EDIT: Oh, and we do see things like Jedi throwing stuff at each other, and deflecting it with the force, or cutting it in half with their lightsabers.

EDIT 2: Okay finished watching. We do see some Bounty Hunters/Dark Saber guy manage to go toe to toe with some Jedi. However, I'd say that those same characters would absolutely slaughter 99% of the Benders we see.

[Kyberwulf]

Really? Crawling up a wall, jumping off a wall, and using her feet to pivet while staying straight. Not to mention we see her take out a bunch of benders like they where nothing. These weren't really mooks either, as they where guarding a prison.

We see Ty Lee run on the wire like she its nothing, then Vault pretty high and land what.. a 10 foot fall like it was nothing? not to mention she is keeping up with the Bender while she is using her ability to "Fly". Then we see her do a handstand fall down. jump a what? 10 foot gap on her hands then launch her self up on to the room. From her Hands. Like it was nothing. Not to mention the fire bending being thrown around isn't god level. These are two really adapt users of Fire bending too.

To be honest, no. I think even the Mandalrions could take out benders pretty easy. I think all the people you mentioned could take benders out easily. Just for the simple fact, most benders aren't MILITARY. Most benders aren't trained for combat. They use their abilities for utilitarian things.

[MLai]

I think you should just compare The Clone Wars movie/cartoon and SW: Rebels to Avatar: The Last Airbender and Legend of Korra, as they share a medium while being truly representative of their respective universes visually in the least fettered way possible, without also being constrained by gameplay mechanics nor being so insubstantial as to be questionable outliers in a larger oeuvre..
I would agree it would put this VS thread back on the right track, rather than having one person derail proper analysis by clamping with all his might down on an absurd strawman that Shyamalan created Avatar canon.


Really? Crawling up a wall, jumping off a wall, and using her feet to pivet while staying straight. Not to mention we see her take out a bunch of benders like they where nothing. These weren't really mooks either, as they where guarding a prison..
So what if Ty Lee or other non-bender characters perform physical feats beyond our best Olympians? Their planet is not Earth, and they are not Homo sapiens. Like Superman, these people just look like us. For all we know, the planet is the size of Mars, and a significant number of their population harbor the "ubermensch" gene.
https://healthhabits.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/babypushup.jpg?w=750

[Reddish Mage]

For the record I only mentioned the movie because I was feeling people were throwing all sorts of disparaging weaknesses in Jedi and claiming Jedi were weak because of selectively looking at the live action movie and ignoring the less popular animated tv shows.
Like a lot of animated action, in Star Wars TV the people are hardier, and their actions much more exaggerated.

The idea of treating the Last Airbender movie as canon is so absurd it was initially mentioned as a punch line.

But benders have a lot less power in the Last Airbender, precisely because of the same reasonwhy force effects are not especially common in IV-VI, because of technical limitations.

Technology just isn't good enough to show people telekinetically manipulating any sized objects with grace, precision, and perfect timing and still make it look like it's not CGI. Effects require proper camera angles, timing and background to "sell" the effect. CGI is just too "clean," too lacking in realistic flaws, for the eye to accept otherwise.

A live action movie just can't show Jefi stringing one force effect after another after another or it's going to look very artificial (a criticism of the Yoda battle in II btw...)

Check out the Rebels episode with Vader (I know, awful series, but Vader...). Vader use of the force here seems more like how he uses it in "The Force Unleashed" video game then in the movies.

[Seppl]

But benders have a lot less power in the Last Airbender, precisely because of the same reasonwhy force effects are not especially common in IV-VI, because of technical limitations.

But I-III are pretty accurate, are they not? They are after all as close to being completely CGI as you can get without being an animated movie.

[MLai]

But benders have a lot less power in the Last Airbender, precisely because of the same reasonwhy force effects are not especially common in IV-VI, because of technical limitations.

Technology just isn't good enough to show people telekinetically manipulating any sized objects with grace, precision, and perfect timing and still make it look like it's not CGI. Effects require proper camera angles, timing and background to "sell" the effect. CGI is just too "clean," too lacking in realistic flaws, for the eye to accept otherwise.
This no longer holds true, or else superhero movies wouldn't be so popular. The only reason benders are so de-powered in Shyamalan's movie is because Shyamalan.

[kaufen]

The strongest Jedi/Sith completely outclass any wizard/bender. And I don't think he's even the strongest in Star Wars. I personally don't know much apart from the movies, but from what I've seen on the sub, Darth Revan, Darth Sidious, Darth Plagius(sp?) and Darth Bane are all incredibly powerful.

[Traab]

The strongest Jedi/Sith completely outclass any wizard/bender. And I don't think he's even the strongest in Star Wars. I personally don't know much apart from the movies, but from what I've seen on the sub, Darth Revan, Darth Sidious, Darth Plagius(sp?) and Darth Bane are all incredibly powerful.

Eh, thats really a narrative thing there. Any character with darth attached to their name has to be strong, because of that whole rule of two thing. The only way two bad guys could be a credible threat when faced with an order of thousands of people with similar powers, is if they are much stronger than the average bear jedi. I mean come on, palpatine managed to stand toe to toe with the grandmaster of the jedi order, who has been honing his craft for like, 800+ years by this time. And he did it laughing like a lunatic the whole time. And the scary part is, his strength was in his manipulation, not his saber usage.

[Reddish Mage]

Eh, thats really a narrative thing there. Any character with darth attached to their name has to be strong, because of that whole rule of two thing. The only way two bad guys could be a credible threat when faced with an order of thousands of people with similar powers, is if they are much stronger than the average bear jedi. I mean come on, palpatine managed to stand toe to toe with the grandmaster of the jedi order, who has been honing his craft for like, 800+ years by this time. And he did it laughing like a lunatic the whole time. And the scary part is, his strength was in his manipulation, not his saber usage.

Not really, Darth Sidious was the one who retreated from Yoda. He was nearly taken out by Windu. The Sith apprentices would be stronger because Sith are more selective. Still not THAT much stronger, Darth Maul was taken out by a single master.

[dancrilis]

Not really, Darth Sidious was the one who retreated from Yoda. He was nearly taken out by Windu.
The Windu fight is up in the air - did Sidious fake weakness to lure Anakin in but was always in control, did Windu enbrace the dark side and the murderous impulse against a defeated enemy, was there an escalation of power in Windu beyound the norm due to circumstance etc etc ...
We can say that Sidious killed Windu in that fight - even if you want to count it as 4 vs 2 rather than 1 vs 1.

For Yoda - Sidious had one victory condition: don't die, Yoda also had one: kill Sidious.
One of these combatants went away to live in a swamp and never bothered the other again, no assassination attempts, no regrouping as the Sith centuries before no nothing.
The other ruled the galaxy.

Had Leia's ship not been attacked by Vader over Tatooine Yoda would have died in a swamp never interfering with Palpatine again, had Luke listened to Yoda and killed Vader than Palpatine would still have won.

Yoda's plan could be summed up as to 'trust in the will of the force' which is a nice way of saying 'ah things tend to work out in the end, no need for me to do anything'.


The Sith apprentices would be stronger because Sith are more selective. Still not THAT much stronger, Darth Maul was taken out by a single master.

A padawan at the time I believe (made a knight after the fight and took his own padawan).


None of which has anything to do with Benders, or the canon level of feats in movies vs cartoons etc.

Ultimately I think that we need to consider what world things are in and how the feats work.

In our world if someone had waterbending they would not bloodbend as they did in the show they would turn the blood in the heart to ice and win at a distance, they would not throw fireballs but instead ignite the opponents directly as the can create fire at a distance also etc.

Similiarly in our world Jedi would use precognition to rule the world and own the stockmarkets, and be master assassins by knowing how and were to strike the enemy.

In this fight the Jedi win - the wait until the time is right and they crush the heart of the enemy with the force at greater distance than the bender can reach and with they are not prepared. But by the time the Jedi is doing this they are not really a Jedi anymore - merely with some specific powers that Jedi have access to.

In a more straight punch up the Bender in the above example wins but turning the Jedi to vapor with a wave of the hand.

Within their respective universes? The Jedi still likely win as they are trained warriors who believe that death is merely something that happens and not a big deal 'mourn them not' where most benders seem more moralistic about things and even the bad ones don't often kill people.

[Flickerdart]

In our world if someone had waterbending they would not bloodbend as they did in the show they would turn the blood in the heart to ice and win at a distance, they would not throw fireballs but instead ignite the opponents directly as the can create fire at a distance also etc.
We have 0 evidence that this is possible with bending powers. Creating fire at a distance is not something firebenders do, they all just throw bolts of fire. The only exception is the third eye explosion technique, but that also has a travel time, and has only been demonstrated by two people.

We also have plenty of evidence that bending a person (as opposed to bending an unattended element) is incredibly difficult. Bloodbending is a rare art only doable at the height of a waterbender's power, and a master airbender took forever to just pull the air out of someone's lungs.

[Seppl]

We have 0 evidence that this is possible with bending powers. Creating fire at a distance is not something firebenders do, they all just throw bolts of fire. The only exception is the third eye explosion technique, but that also has a travel time, and has only been demonstrated by two people.There is some evidence that it is possible: Jeong Jeong (Aang's first firebending master) can create firewalls at a distance and move them. I think there are more instances but this is the one i remember best. These firewalls seem to lack the explosive force that the firebolts have, maybe that is why they are not normally used in combat. Jeong Jeong uses them as area denial when we first meet him. When he uses them in combat it is under the power of the comet. (Of course, the meta-reason is that it would neither be interesting to watch nor can they show gruesome fire-murder on Nick)
We also have plenty of evidence that bending a person (as opposed to bending an unattended element) is incredibly difficult. Bloodbending is a rare art only doable at the height of a waterbender's power, and a master airbender took forever to just pull the air out of someone's lungs.This. I think I already said it earlier in the thread: They make this pretty clear in the bloodbending episode. Katara even says out loud that her own power at bending makes her immune to bloodbending by lesser benders. This hints heavily at some kind of resistance to bending bound to the willpower or spiritual strength of the victim. Like Jedi mind tricks.

[Kitten Champion]

I don't think Jedi precognition is generally so advanced as to be able to game the financial market in any practical sense. Most dealing with less immediate events - like Luke's vision in Empire Strikes Back or Anakin's in Revenge of the Sith - are exceedingly vague and subject to interpretation.

I guess day traders who deal with second-by-second changes in the stock market could get something out of it, but there's no indication from what I know that a force sensitive would be aware of - say - the value of General Electric stock next month.

[dancrilis]

I think I already said it earlier in the thread: They make this pretty clear in the bloodbending episode. Katara even says out loud that her own power at bending makes her immune to bloodbending by lesser benders. This hints heavily at some kind of resistance to bending bound to the willpower or spiritual strength of the victim. Like Jedi mind tricks.

Her own water bending power - Aang was still affected just fine so there is no protection that can be assumed from the Jedi mind tricks.

And as for the height of their powers: Yakone did it just fine and thought his kids how too also, if the argument is for the best of the best we have to assume that the people involved have achieved full mastery of there discipline.

My point is that focusing on the powers and saying X could do Y demonstrated at Z is meaningless as both shows are limited by a narrative - but take that limitation away and apply both groups to a real world war and I think that you will find the Jedi will likely win by merely being more versatile (mind control and seeing the future are very useful).
Leave the narrative on and Jedi win because they are killers in their narrative - and benders (with very rare exceptions) are not within their narrative.

[Seppl]

there is no protection that can be assumed from the Jedi mind tricks.
That was nothing I wanted to imply. I just wanted to present an analogy and for some reason Star Wars came to mind :smallsmile:



My point is that focusing on the powers and saying X could do Y demonstrated at Z is meaningless as both shows are limited by a narrative - but take that limitation away and apply both groups to a real world war and I think that you will find the Jedi will likely win by merely being more versatile (mind control and seeing the future are very useful).If you start applying your own logic of how the contestants should use their powers they cease to be the contestants. Sure, there are more creative ways to use force powers and bending than what we have seen in the respective shows. But if a Jedi uses the force to rip out someone's heart or a waterbender freezes the water in someone's body they cease to be Jedi and waterbenders and instead become Darth Starkill0r and Supersokka of the Northern Watertribe, the characters that Spike McMunchkin played in a RPG campaign that drove the DM mad.

[Reddish Mage]

If you start applying your own logic of how the contestants should use their powers they cease to be the contestants. Sure, there are more creative ways to use force powers and bending than what we have seen in the respective shows. But if a Jedi uses the force to rip out someone's heart or a waterbender freezes the water in someone's body they cease to be Jedi and waterbenders and instead become Darth Starkill0r and Supersokka of the Northern Watertribe, the characters that Spike McMunchkin played in a RPG campaign that drove the DM mad.

Says the guy who suggested Benders have a special residence from Jedi Mind Control in responding to the guy who says Jedi own the stock market in a world where waterbenders vaporize people.

What the Jedi can and cannot do with the stock market seems irrelevant, I see no reason they can't be superior traders in the spot markets of the Star Wars Galaxy if they wanted to. However benders CANNOT vaporize people. Bloodbending is limited to the full moon except for one (deceased) family and doesn't reach vaporization levels of control. We don't even see that water benders can vaporize WATER.

Vs/deathbattle rules can totally take away Jedi's reticence towards using darker powers, it's part of the baseline assumptions that make a fight to the death happen between two groups that have no reason to fight each other and exist in different universes were each other's powers wouldn't work. The Jedi must be willing to kill and to not hold back, or we aren't seeing their full strength. That's not the same thing as suggesting new abilities by postulating a pseudoscientific basis for powers...


Jedi would not rip out a heart because crushing a throat is far easier and more effective (and Luke chokes and sleeps guards as "not a Jedi yet"), not because TKing a heart is beyond Jedi abilities. But it's all moot anyway as the Jedi have plenty of options even if (this is contradicted by the movies and tv) they don't kill with the force.

Btw, the stuff about Mace Windu gaining power from the Dark Side completely relies on obscure EU stuff about gaining a temporary boost in power from turning dark. In the first movie Obi says "no" to the dark side being more powerful, it's only "more seductive." Sith fight with more power and less finesse because it's consistent with their outlook. The idea that the two sides have different power sets is something that is derived from and inconsistently applied in the EU. If we get EU level powers, Jedi overpower anyway.

[Seppl]

Says the guy who suggested Benders have a special residence from Jedi Mind Control in responding to the guy who says Jedi own the stock market in a world where waterbenders vaporize people.
How can you say this when you cite the very same post where I say that I did not intend to imply that?


Vs/deathbattle rules can totally take away Jedi's reticence towards using darker powers, it's part of the baseline assumptions that make a fight to the death happen between two groups that have no reason to fight each other and exist in different universes were each other's powers wouldn't work. The Jedi must be willing to kill and to not hold back, or we aren't seeing their full strength. That's not the same thing as suggesting new abilities by postulating a pseudoscientific basis for powers...Yes, they may use Sith powers (disclaimer: Is this even true? Force choke we have seen, it is just a clever use of telekinesis. But it has been said in this thread that force lightning requires a certain amount of hate and willingness to torture someone, that a Jedi just does not have access to). But you cannot make up new powers derived from clever usage of shown abilities. Ripping your heart out was just a hypothetical example. A better example: A Jedi cannot or will not turn off another Jedi's lightsaber, even though we know they can use telekinesis and that lightsabers have mechanical parts. It is just something they never do, it is something a powergamer would do. Likewise, firebenders have shown the ability to make fire at a distance but we never see them just setting the ground under an opponent on fire. You cannot make an argument in a versus battle because you think they should do this. It is just something a firebender never does, for whatever reason.

[Flickerdart]

And as for the height of their powers: Yakone did it just fine and thought his kids how too also, if the argument is for the best of the best we have to assume that the people involved have achieved full mastery of there discipline.
Yakone and his children are genetic anomalies. Katara is a vastly more powerful waterbender than they are, but not uniquely gifted in that particular way. It's similar to how it takes more than just being a really good earthbender to metalbend or lavabend, or a really good firebender to combustion-bend, or a really good airbender to fly.

[Reddish Mage]

How can you say this when you cite the very same post where I say that I did not intend to imply that?

Yes, they may use Sith powers (disclaimer: Is this even true? Force choke we have seen, it is just a clever use of telekinesis. But it has been said in this thread that force lightning requires a certain amount of hate and willingness to torture someone, that a Jedi just does not have access to). But you cannot make up new powers derived from clever usage of shown abilities. Ripping your heart out was just a hypothetical example. A better example: A Jedi cannot or will not turn off another Jedi's lightsaber, even though we know they can use telekinesis and that lightsabers have mechanical parts. It is just something they never do, it is something a powergamer would do.

Wouldn't the Jedi have to concentrate, exert fine motor control (he is "turning it off" by your statement not "crushing" it), and the other Jedi (more likely a Force Sensitive/Sith if we are talking cannonical battles) could counter.

Also, Yoda uses lightning against Count Dooku.



Likewise, firebenders have shown the ability to make fire at a distance but we never see them just setting the ground under an opponent on fire. You cannot make an argument in a versus battle because you think they should do this. It is just something a firebender never does, for whatever reason.

What are you talking about, they've done it many times, That is a favorite of Zuko to sweep his legs and set fire to the ground, usually right where the opponent is (or more likely was) standing. King Bumi, and many other earth-benders characters including a Nimrod like the Boulder, have used moved that manipulate earth underneath their opponents. You rarely see benders using distant attacks to take out opponent assassination-style from range, but that doesn't mean the capability isn't there.

If the opponent knows the attack is coming, and benders need to telegraph their attacks by using arms and legs (very advanced benders just need their breath), they can dodge.


I don't disagree in theory that there is overpowered ways to use a powerset that we haven't seen that could well change the outcome of a versus, however your examples need work. Also, I think Jedi, solely using powers in canon, overpower benders in general (potentially excepting the Avatar, but we have excluded the Avatar and Yakone's family before now...).

I also think its more fair to include at least the most fundamental of the EU stuff about the force, as those powers have been outlined pretty consistently in manuals. If you do that its clearly game over, because those manuals go into detail about how the powers work and their total ability for Pwnage, and there is a more than billion dollar a year industry that rests on force powers behaving a certain predictable way.

[Dragonexx]

Yes, they may use Sith powers (disclaimer: Is this even true? Force choke we have seen, it is just a clever use of telekinesis. But it has been said in this thread that force lightning requires a certain amount of hate and willingness to torture someone, that a Jedi just does not have access to). But you cannot make up new powers derived from clever usage of shown abilities. Ripping your heart out was just a hypothetical example. A better example: A Jedi cannot or will not turn off another Jedi's lightsaber, even though we know they can use telekinesis and that lightsabers have mechanical parts. It is just something they never do, it is something a powergamer would do.

If using powers in creative and unexpected ways is your idea of powergaming, then you are exactly the kind of GM that I strive to keep my distance from.

[Forum Explorer]

Also, Yoda uses lightning against Count Dooku.




He catches, and throws lightning back. A small, but important distinction.

[Reddish Mage]

Forget Jedi. Robots, clones, stormtroopers, rag-tag rebels, all should make quick work of benders with their blasters, assault vehicles, or....space ships. Equal-number mundane Star Wars warriors should have the advantage on benders simply because of their vastly superior weapons.

However, Jedi overpower all mundane forces in the Star Wars universe. QED.

[TeChameleon]

Just poking my nose back into the thread briefly to bow out as gracefully as I can manage, as the argument has started to go in circles. I've already made my views on the matter plain, they haven't convinced anybody, and nobody has convinced me, so, well, ciao for now.

[Reddish Mage]

Just poking my nose back into the thread briefly to bow out as gracefully as I can manage, as the argument has started to go in circles. I've already made my views on the matter plain, they haven't convinced anybody, and nobody has convinced me, so, well, ciao for now.

I think instead of going in circles, we sort of moved on from attacking your points to other things....like hopefully Robots!

I am saying that, forget Jedi, Star Wars mundanes, including "Roger Roger" guys will all make quick work of the benders with their weapons.

[Seppl]

If using powers in creative and unexpected ways is your idea of powergaming, then you are exactly the kind of GM that I strive to keep my distance from.Poor choice of words. I did not want to degrade creative gaming but using this style in a versus battle. Saying a contestant could theoretically do something when you never see them do it strikes me as wrong in such a contest. No Jedi super-stock-trading in order to crash the Avatarverse economy unless you can find a legendary Jedi businessman in the EU :smallbiggrin:


What are you talking about, they've done it many times, That is a favorite of Zuko to sweep his legs and set fire to the ground, usually right where the opponent is (or more likely was) standing. King Bumi, and many other earth-benders characters including a Nimrod like the Boulder, have used moved that manipulate earth underneath their opponents. You rarely see benders using distant attacks to take out opponent assassination-style from range, but that doesn't mean the capability isn't there.
Yes, it is a favorite of earthbenders, but I cannot remember any firebenders doing it. Can you point me to an episode? I remember Zuko's favorites techniques as good old fire bolts and the fire daggers. But ATLA is huge and I may have forgotten something.



However, Jedi overpower all mundane forces in the Star Wars universe. QED. Rock beats scissors and scissors beats paper. Therefore Rock beats paper. QED.


I am saying that, forget Jedi, Star Wars mundanes, including "Roger Roger" guys will all make quick work of the benders with their weapons. How? The robots are pathetic. Poor mobility, horrible aim, horrible tactics, horrible strategy. The vehicle design is just as horrible, relying heavily on walking machines with huge blind spots and huge weaknesses (legs!). Blasters travel at visible speed, easily dodgeable if you have quick reflexes and they are rarely shown to be able to destroy (or even make a dent in) a rock wall. The Gungan comic-relief army could hold their own against the robots for a long time. The Stormtroopers (who used similar equipment and had similar aim and tactics as the robots) suffered a huge defeat at the hands of teddy bears. How would this army make quick work of benders? If you consider the Legend of Korra, benders even have experience in fighting against tanks, mechs and airplanes.

[Kyberwulf]

I maintain the movie was canon. If it was better, and showed rock benders shooting out rocks like Gatling guns, or any other such nonsense. Or if the movie was... better then it was. I do believe that we would be sitting here discussing and using it in this discussion as canon. However, it was bad. So "we" don't like it, therefore. Not canon. It got the okay from Nickelodeon, maybe not the creator. I am not sure. So it is canon.
I mean if we can just ignore stuff cause we don't like it, despite it being endorsed by the people that make it.
on the Star War's Christmas special. I do believe that was canon at some point.

I haven't been using any special abilities from other sources because I was trying to keep this a straight Bender verse Jedi fight. Trying to use skills every Jedi knows. Force telekinesis and Force precognition. Which I think is more then enough to take out Benders. Everyone else seems to keep bringing up named people who are exceptional in some way. Bending techniques far beyond a normal Benders abilities. Attributing skills and abilities that I just don't see happening.

First of all, since all Jedi Masters or just the same as all padawans, All Jedi are able to do what the most powerful Jedi can do.
Second, The Avatar States doesn't make you invincible.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kCDYIRNxro
I am pretty sure that being in the state doesn't protect you from the force. Since there isn't any energy being used. I am more then pretty sure you can be Force Gripped or Force thrown throw any of the Shields that are made from any of the elements. Even the Avatar is vulnerable to force chokes, and I am sure he can't get out. Being that I haven't seen anyone get out of one, that wasn't allowed to live or some extenuating circumstance from an outside source broke the connection. Also, since there isn't any real control over the elements, I can assume they don't actually control the elements. Just pretty much Throw them around. So you can pretty much slice or force push the stuff away. Or more easier, dodge. Usually I would say Jedi can lose one on one battles barring situational things. However, since it has been pointed out Jedi levels and experience doesn't matter. Jedi's can't lose solo matches.

[Bobb]

Yakone and his children are genetic anomalies. Katara is a vastly more powerful waterbender than they are, but not uniquely gifted in that particular way. It's similar to how it takes more than just being a really good earthbender to metalbend or lavabend, or a really good firebender to combustion-bend, or a really good airbender to fly.

The more I learn about how bending actually works the more incredulous I become that there are people supporting the benders as winners in a fight.

I have only seen three episodes of Avatar (one of which was the second story). I saw the earth bender tournament and based bender powers roughly around that.

[The Fury]

He catches, and throws lightning back. A small, but important distinction.

Hm. So you can redirect Force lightning. Good thing the Jedi invented that move after observing Waterbenders.

Also, I admit that I have not followed this thread closely though I see Ty Lee was mentioned. That got me wondering whether Chi-Blocking would work on Jedi or Force-users.

[Flickerdart]

Also, I admit that I have not followed this thread closely though I see Ty Lee was mentioned. That got me wondering whether Chi-Blocking would work on Jedi or Force-users.
Probably not, since the Force is not based in the same things. It seems to be a power of the mind more than anything, whereas chi is intensely physical.


The more I learn about how bending actually works the more incredulous I become that there are people supporting the benders as winners in a fight.

I have only seen three episodes of Avatar (one of which was the second story). I saw the earth bender tournament and based bender powers roughly around that.
The Earthbenders other than Toph in that episode are not very good. For the best examples of bending, check out the final few episodes of Book 4 when we see Aang vs Ozai, Zuko vs Azula, and the White Lotus guys kicking tons of butt. The siege of the Water Tribe also has good examples.

Mind you, benders still lose, but there's more to bending than wrestling dudes from a random contest.

[Reddish Mage]

Poor choice of words. I did not want to degrade creative gaming but using this style in a versus battle. Saying a contestant could theoretically do something when you never see them do it strikes me as wrong in such a contest. No Jedi super-stock-trading in order to crash the Avatarverse economy unless you can find a legendary Jedi businessman in the EU :smallbiggrin:

Yes, it is a favorite of earthbenders, but I cannot remember any firebenders doing it. Can you point me to an episode? I remember Zuko's favorites techniques as good old fire bolts and the fire daggers. But ATLA is huge and I may have forgotten something.


Rock beats scissors and scissors beats paper. Therefore Rock beats paper. QED.

Firebenders light up the ground all the time, but I'll go back and show it later.

Regarding Rock Paper Scissors are you willing to argue that benders, despite being overall technologically primative and lacking in strength are somehow well suited to attacking Jedi? Or are you just throwing stuff out to point out "stronger than" relationships don't HAVE TO be linear.



How? The robots are pathetic. Poor mobility, horrible aim, horrible tactics, horrible strategy. The vehicle design is just as horrible, relying heavily on walking machines with huge blind spots and huge weaknesses (legs!). Blasters travel at visible speed, easily dodgeable if you have quick reflexes and they are rarely shown to be able to destroy (or even make a dent in) a rock wall. The Gungan comic-relief army could hold their own against the robots for a long time. The Stormtroopers (who used similar equipment and had similar aim and tactics as the robots) suffered a huge defeat at the hands of teddy bears. How would this army make quick work of benders? If you consider the Legend of Korra, benders even have experience in fighting against tanks, mechs and airplanes.

The Robots don't use walkers, Imperials do. Robots use hover vehicles, shield generators and space-worthy flying vehicles though.

If you really want to argue that the proper interpretation of the films is that the fast moving, fusion-powered, long-ranged, city and armored-base-destroying weapons can't compete with WWI fighters and steam operated mechs and tanks...

I'd prefer to think that the heroes have plot armor, and the Ewoks are extraordinarily resourceful.

[Seppl]

Probably not, since the Force is not based in the same things. It seems to be a power of the mind more than anything, whereas chi is intensely physical.It still takes out non-benders, paralyzing them for a while (see Ty Lee vs Sokka). But it might not actually work at all on "humans" from a galaxy far far away, unless their nerve tracts are absolutely identical to those of humans in Avatarverse. Agree, that it will not work on the force-using part of the body.

The Earthbenders other than Toph in that episode are not very good. For the best examples of bending, check out the final few episodes of Book 4 when we see Aang vs Ozai, Zuko vs Azula, and the White Lotus guys kicking tons of butt. The siege of the Water Tribe also has good examples.

The last book is book 3 :smallsmile:

There are plenty more examples in Legend of Korra, as they really upped the abilities of average benders in that show.

[Flickerdart]

It still takes out non-benders, paralyzing them for a while (see Ty Lee vs Sokka). But it might not actually work at all on "humans" from a galaxy far far away, unless their nerve tracts are absolutely identical to those of humans in Avatarverse. Agree, that it will not work on the force-using part of the body.
Does a Jedi need to physically move to use the Force? There seem to be a handful of techniques that can be used by just sitting still.



The last book is book 3 :smallsmile:

There are plenty more examples in Legend of Korra, as they really upped the abilities of average benders in that show.
Right, 3.

[The Fury]

I'd prefer to think that the heroes have plot armor, and the Ewoks are extraordinarily resourceful.

Plot armor's an odd thing to bring up when discussing Battle Droids. Battle Droids not only have the worst plot armor of anyone, they actually seem to be aware of this. I mean, a lot of the "jokes" concerning Battle Droids in The Clone Wars cartoon seem to be based on how they don't want to die. I sort of feel sorry for the little guys.

[BWR]

Does a Jedi need to physically move to use the Force? There seem to be a handful of techniques that can be used by just sitting still.


I don't know if it's been outright stated anywhere but I gather the general idea was that movements are more a matter of habit than necessity. Out of universe it's primarily for cinematic/stylistic reasons since it makes a lot more sense to viewers if somebody makes some obvious gesture or grimace right before something happens rather than droids suddenly flying away or boxes flying around on their own.

[The Fury]

I don't know if it's been outright stated anywhere but I gather the general idea was that movements are more a matter of habit than necessity. Out of universe it's primarily for cinematic/stylistic reasons since it makes a lot more sense to viewers if somebody makes some obvious gesture or grimace right before something happens rather than droids suddenly flying away or boxes flying around on their own.

Well, there is precedent for this though. During the Bespin duel in Empire Strikes Back, Vader lowers his lightsaber and crates, conduits, airducts and random debris get thrown at Luke. All the while Vader remains fairly still.

[Flickerdart]

Vader would already be immune to chi blocking, since I don't think you can't strike chi points through armour, and most of Vader is robot anyway.

[Darth Credence]

I didn't see anyone mention this, but I admit I haven't read through the entire thread. I know pretty much nothing about benders, but I would like to add some data on Force users for others to pick up on.

The latest Star Wars comics, which are absolutely canon, are onto a story called Vader Down. (There are spoilers here, but I would think a versus thread would not be the place to worry about them.) Great comic, and it sets a whole new level of what Vader specifically can do. It is set somewhere between STar Wars and Empire, so Luke only has the training he has picked up on in the other new books.

Vader comes out of hyperspace in his TIE Advanced x1. He has run into a rebel X-Wing patrol. Three squadrons of X-wings are there, Luke identifies that it is Vader, and they proceed to attack in full force. He mops up the first two squadrons with ease. The next squadron unleashes a wave of missiles, with someone saying something like "Dodge that!". He quickly uses the force to dispose of them all. Luke decides to ram him. Vader thinks that he has finally found a worthy opponent, then Luke crashes into him and the both crash on the planet in different places. Everyone in the rebel garrison heads out to put Vader down permanently. When he is surrounded by a whole lot of people with a whole lot of guns, he tells them all he is surrounded by is fear and dead men. (It is a lot of people, and they are everywhere. I'm not sure how to embed the image, so this is a link to it.) (https://41.media.tumblr.com/ac2b3439c48bf13c315555b6e2f7db5e/tumblr_ny1dfeKrWq1s5sopco1_500.png) They attack, and Vader quickly demonstrates that he was correct as he wipes them all out.

I think this ratchets Vader's abilities up quite a bit. By implication, I think it improves the average Jedi. Since Luke is able to actually ram Vader, it means that just having access to the Force makes someone a vastly better fighter. He is unusually strong in the Force, so not every Jedi could have done that, but I still think it adds up to Jedi are being rewritten as much more powerful than the movies ever really got across (see also Ezra making quick work of Stormtroopers in Rebels.)

[The Fury]

Vader would already be immune to chi blocking, since I don't think you can't strike chi points through armour, and most of Vader is robot anyway.

Yes, Lin Beifong actually says specifically that armor would stop Chi-Blocking. Though there's a few things from the Avatar-verse that Vader would not be immune to. Metalbending his cybernetics would be debatable, though Firebender lightning and Equalist-style shock-gloves would probably work great. (I recall being told by one of my more EU-savvy friends that the reason why Vader doesn't use Force-lightning, and virtually every other Sith Lord in history does, is because Force lightning would fry the cybernetics that keep him alive. That's why Palpatine's Force lightning did him in at the end of Return of the Jedi.)

[Flickerdart]

Lightning can be parried with a lightsaber, as we see Windu do. As for shock gloves, there's a reason forearm prosthetics are so common among Jedi. :smalltongue:

[Kitten Champion]

I don't know if it's been outright stated anywhere but I gather the general idea was that movements are more a matter of habit than necessity. Out of universe it's primarily for cinematic/stylistic reasons since it makes a lot more sense to viewers if somebody makes some obvious gesture or grimace right before something happens rather than droids suddenly flying away or boxes flying around on their own.

That's my impression as well. For instance, Vader makes a conspicuous choking motion the first time he mentally suffocates a subordinate - so you're not left wondering why this man is suddenly having a fit - but the second time it happens, after establishing it as a thing he can do, he doesn't bother.

[Traab]

Yes, Lin Beifong actually says specifically that armor would stop Chi-Blocking. Though there's a few things from the Avatar-verse that Vader would not be immune to. Metalbending his cybernetics would be debatable, though Firebender lightning and Equalist-style shock-gloves would probably work great. (I recall being told by one of my more EU-savvy friends that the reason why Vader doesn't use Force-lightning, and virtually every other Sith Lord in history does, is because Force lightning would fry the cybernetics that keep him alive. That's why Palpatine's Force lightning did him in at the end of Return of the Jedi.)

Yep, vader cant use lightning. As for metal bending, im thinking probably no, if only because it depends on just how pure the metals are. Toph isnt bending metal, she is bending the carbon and earth and other impurities in the metal if I understand it correctly. And I have to believe that sci fi metals made in the distant future are a lot less impure than the standard metal in avatar land.

[Seppl]

Yep, vader cant use lightning. As for metal bending, im thinking probably no, if only because it depends on just how pure the metals are. Toph isnt bending metal, she is bending the carbon and earth and other impurities in the metal if I understand it correctly. And I have to believe that sci fi metals made in the distant future are a lot less impure than the standard metal in avatar land.Not necessarily. For example steel is an alloy of iron and carbon and earthbenders can most definitely bend coal, which is almost pure carbon. The anti-bending metals in Avatarverse were made with the sole intention of being proof to metalbending.

But I would leave out named characters like Vader and rare bending techniques (Although metalbending is much more common in Legend of Korra. Thus, it would be reasonable to consider it in this thread), unless we want to discuss specific matchups like Vader vs. Toph (Which would actually be a pretty cool fight. Vader would probably win as Toph is helpless when held up in the air, a favourite technique of Vader's).

[Reddish Mage]

I didn't see anyone mention this, but I admit I haven't read through the entire thread. I know pretty much nothing about benders, but I would like to add some data on Force users for others to pick up on.

The latest Star Wars comics, which are absolutely canon, are onto a story called Vader Down. (There are spoilers here, but I would think a versus thread would not be the place to worry about them.) Great comic, and it sets a whole new level of what Vader specifically can do. It is set somewhere between STar Wars and Empire, so Luke only has the training he has picked up on in the other new books.

Vader comes out of hyperspace in his TIE Advanced x1. He has run into a rebel X-Wing patrol. Three squadrons of X-wings are there, Luke identifies that it is Vader, and they proceed to attack in full force. He mops up the first two squadrons with ease. The next squadron unleashes a wave of missiles, with someone saying something like "Dodge that!". He quickly uses the force to dispose of them all. Luke decides to ram him. Vader thinks that he has finally found a worthy opponent, then Luke crashes into him and the both crash on the planet in different places. Everyone in the rebel garrison heads out to put Vader down permanently. When he is surrounded by a whole lot of people with a whole lot of guns, he tells them all he is surrounded by is fear and dead men. (It is a lot of people, and they are everywhere. I'm not sure how to embed the image, so this is a link to it.) (https://41.media.tumblr.com/ac2b3439c48bf13c315555b6e2f7db5e/tumblr_ny1dfeKrWq1s5sopco1_500.png) They attack, and Vader quickly demonstrates that he was correct as he wipes them all out.

I think this ratchets Vader's abilities up quite a bit. By implication, I think it improves the average Jedi. Since Luke is able to actually ram Vader, it means that just having access to the Force makes someone a vastly better fighter. He is unusually strong in the Force, so not every Jedi could have done that, but I still think it adds up to Jedi are being rewritten as much more powerful than the movies ever really got across (see also Ezra making quick work of Stormtroopers in Rebels.)

Yeah, and Ezra is a barely-trained padawan . I think it's obvious that taking the comics and the cartoons as canon, looking at official manuals, or just taking what Lucas has said over the years about Jefi as a valid interpretation (like he would have liked to do a lot more force effects), all get that Jedi have a lot of superhuman abilities...abilities with enormous range, power and even speed. Benders (except for the Avatar) are almost one trick ponies and basically human. and Only elite benders have wuxia level abilities. Most benders mine, farm, or just stay home in their Mom's basement. EVERY Jedi Knight is an elite.

[Seppl]

Yeah, and Ezra is a barely-trained padawan . I think it's obvious that taking the comics and the cartoons as canon, looking at official manuals, or just taking what Lucas has said over the years about Jefi as a valid interpretation (like he would have liked to do a lot more force effects), all get that Jedi have a lot of superhuman abilities...abilities with enormous range, power and even speed. Benders (except for the Avatar) are almost one trick ponies and basically human. and Only elite benders have wuxia level abilities. Most benders mine, farm, or just stay home in their Mom's basement. EVERY Jedi Knight is an elite.
Is it not already the consensus in this thread that every non-master bender loses hard to even the most untalented of Jedi? I was under the impression that the last 5 pages were about the question how a Jedi master would fare against a bending master. Which seems to be a very close fight given the course of the thread.

[druid91]

A few points.

1.) Lightsabers have as a critical component, crystals. Earthbenders have as an explicit power, the ability to control crystals. Erego, lightsabers stop working against Earthbenders once they figure out the trick. Which they would eventually.

2.) As previously stated, Jedi generally do not get into the realm of fantastic physical prowess for a reason. That reason is that it interferes with their foresight. Even the level of power demonstrated in the prequels was enough to cloud their vision. This is why Yoda went to Dagobah and stopped using the force for much. Same for Obi-wan. The force is a river, using it to throw cars muddies the water.

3.) By and large, while Jedi Knights are more trained, they are also fewer in number than benders. Meaning that the Earth Empire could field enough troops to figure out the trick mentioned in point 1, and then apply it.

[Reddish Mage]

Is it not already the consensus in this thread that every non-master bender loses hard to even the most untalented of Jedi? I was under the impression that the last 5 pages were about the question how a Jedi master would fare against a bending master. Which seems to be a very close fight given the course of the thread.

Ok so barring a certain latecomer druid "troll in the playground" (do we see crystal bending and its encased in metal), we are on master benders vs Jedi Masters...that is different.

Still, if we have the comics and the cartoons Darth Vader that's pretty obscene. We are playing with versus rules, so the Jedi in question are uninhibited from holding back with their full power (that takes care of what druid91 says about Jedi holding back, which is more EU stuff from what I know).

[druid91]

Ok so barring a certain latecomer druid "troll in the playground" (do we see crystal bending and its encased in metal), we are on master benders vs Jedi Masters...that is different.

Still, if we have the comics and the cartoons Darth Vader that's pretty obscene. We are playing with versus rules, so the Jedi in question are uninhibited from holding back with their full power (that takes care of what druid91 says about Jedi holding back, which is more EU stuff from what I know).

Benders don't necessarily have to have a direct connection to what they bend. It's a tad bit more difficult, as shown with the episode where Jet is introduced. But not impossible or even particularly hard.

And yes. Crystal is explicitly a form of earth in the avatarverse. Even moreso than metal.

Yes it is EU stuff, but so is Jedi having insane powers to begin with. And it's not so much holding back as it is Jedi have a choice between seeing the future and telekinesis. Generally they chose future sight.

Also I'm hardly a latecomer. I've been posting since page 3-4.

[Seppl]

Still, if we have the comics and the cartoons Darth Vader that's pretty obscene. We are playing with versus rules, so the Jedi in question are uninhibited from holding back with their full power (that takes care of what druid91 says about Jedi holding back, which is more EU stuff from what I know).Well, maybe we should not be using the chosen one, prophesied to bring balance to the world force as a representative example for a Jedi master. That could be another tier, even above master level: Anakin/Vader versus the Avatar.
I was thinking more like Yoda, Count Dooku or Mace Windu versus the likes of Bumi, Pakku, Iroh and so forth. You might also include prodigies like Katara, Toph and Azula who just have a talent for the art, even at a very young age. I do not know enough about Star Wars to say for sure if there are any true Jedi prodigies apart from Anakin (Luke? Ahsoka?) but I expect there are some.

I would say the master vs master is very close with a small advantage for the benders but I have also read good arguments for the other side. A lot comes down to the specific setup: Environment (benders are screwed without access to their element), starting distance, knowledge (or lack thereof) of the other contestant. It is basically a game of rocket-tag, the moment anyone gets hit they are dead. Force enhanced speed and jumping seems to be on par with bending enhanced speed and jumping. Foresight enhanced reflexes and movements seem to be on par with the reflexes and movements of wuxia masters. The biggest difference is that every move by a bender is also potentially a powerful ranged attack while Jedi are mostly melee attackers and have to slow their movements if they want to use the force for a ranged attack, which is why I would give the advantage to the benders.

The duel of the chosen ones depends on the incarnation of the Avatar: Vader versus Aang would go to Aang in a landslide. Aang's whole style is focused around evasion, ideal for fighting a lightsaber user. If Vader starts to use force powers on him, Aang could go into the Avatar state (or be forced into it by the mortal danger) which will support him long enough to finish off Vader. The power of the Avatar state is just absurd, not only does it provide constant flight, even minor uses of bending while in this state are powerful enough to destroy huge stone pillars in seconds. Stronger moves can conjure tsunamis and hurricanes or bend multiple(!) volcanos at once. Aang is also mentally disciplined, Vader would have a tough time if he tried any mind affecting powers on him, negating one of Vader's greatest strengths.

Anakin would be more agile than Vader but does not use the force that much, except for enhancing his skill with the lightsaber, playing even more to Aangs advantages in this contest.

Avatar Korra on the other hand, while being more experienced and proficient at physical combat than Aang, is less adept at using the Avatar state to its fullest potential. She is also much more hot headed and confrontational. I could easily see her getting provoked into a melee by Vader (or just going into it all by herself), in which case the lightsaber will make short work of her.

Anakin versus Korra would be close, I have no idea who would win this one. Depends if Korra tries to go into melee or whether she respects the threat of a glowing sword that makes strange noises. There are also many parallels between the two characters, making this an interesting matchup storywise.

[Traab]

HOW would they know there is a crystal powering the saber? Isnt being able to sense earth everywhere pretty much a toph only skill due to her extensive badgermole training? I honestly think that this is grasping at straws here.

[Reddish Mage]

I don't agree Vader was the chosen one (in fact I never understood what the prophecy was about or whether its been fufilled) or a new class of Jedi (and he is actually Sith). I think the Emperor was more powerful, as Vader acts as his flunky the whole time despite explicitly wanting to kill him and take his place.

I don't think Yoda was too far off from either, but he is old and perhaps doesn't have the stamina he used to...and the Emperor has a legion of force sensitive bodyguards (probably more of a factor than the entire army). Obi-Wan's power isn't displayed but he claims he became "more powerful" than Darth Vader "can possibly imagine" by letting himself get killed, and Luke Skywalker actually defeated Darth Vader in (an unfortunately pretty special effect free) grand finale combat (and then couldn't do anything to defend against the Emperor).

I'm not sure how the Avatar, any Avatar really, would fare against Jedi. The Avatar can bend energy and breaks threw all sorts of limitations on bending. Sure Korra showed that the Avatar is even more susceptible to sneak attack then the Jedi are (no precognitive defense here) and Jedi can attack at unlimited range and with stealth...but if we are assuming anything like a face to face fight...once the Avatar state is entered, all bets are off. Supposedly, the Comics show Darth Vader murder two squadrons of fighters and a garrison...but the Avatar can take out an entire army, or navy, or whatever and do it with little effort.

I don't think even in the EU we see such godly powers as Aang showed.

[Forum Explorer]

A few points.

1.) Lightsabers have as a critical component, crystals. Earthbenders have as an explicit power, the ability to control crystals. Erego, lightsabers stop working against Earthbenders once they figure out the trick. Which they would eventually.

2.) As previously stated, Jedi generally do not get into the realm of fantastic physical prowess for a reason. That reason is that it interferes with their foresight. Even the level of power demonstrated in the prequels was enough to cloud their vision. This is why Yoda went to Dagobah and stopped using the force for much. Same for Obi-wan. The force is a river, using it to throw cars muddies the water.

3.) By and large, while Jedi Knights are more trained, they are also fewer in number than benders. Meaning that the Earth Empire could field enough troops to figure out the trick mentioned in point 1, and then apply it.

1) Why would they figure that out? I mean a) lightsabers are ridiculously advanced, I doubt any bender could figure out how one worked at all, let alone the crystal is a pivitol part of it b) they'd have to beat a Jedi to even get access to the lightsaber and c) isn't it only Troph who can detect things like that?

2) That point has been argued. So I'm not sure what the canon is on the matter.

3) Not really applicable for a one on one fight. Because if the Benders get the full force of their militaries, then it's only fair to give the Jedi access to their allies as well.



I don't agree Vader was the chosen one (in fact I never understood what the prophecy was about or whether its been fufilled) or a new class of Jedi (and he is actually Sith). I think the Emperor was more powerful, as Vader acts as his flunky the whole time despite explicitly wanting to kill him and take his place.


Being the chosen one doesn't necessitate being super powerful. It just means being the one individual to fulfill a prophecy, in this case by bringing balance to the force by killing the last 2 Sith, which technically Anakin did, even if it was mostly because of Luke's actions and words.

[Seppl]

Being the chosen one doesn't necessitate being super powerful. It just means being the one individual to fulfill a prophecy, in this case by bringing balance to the force by killing the last 2 Sith, which technically Anakin did, even if it was mostly because of Luke's actions and words.The prequels make it pretty clear that he is supposed to be a very special person and that he is an unusually force-sensitive and powerful Jedi. Or in other words: His midi-chlorian count is over 9000!

[Bobb]

I don't think even in the EU we see such godly powers as Aang showed.

One force user eats an entire planet's life force from orbit. (Darth Nihilus)

One force user brings the dead back to life. (Cade Skywalker)

One force user mind blanks tens of thousands of minds. (Emperor Palpatine)

Three force users have dropped their physical bodies and are now impervious to harm, although they wouldn't be doing much fighting either. (Qui-Gon, Yoda, Obi-Wan)

[Traab]

I don't agree Vader was the chosen one (in fact I never understood what the prophecy was about or whether its been fufilled) or a new class of Jedi (and he is actually Sith). I think the Emperor was more powerful, as Vader acts as his flunky the whole time despite explicitly wanting to kill him and take his place.

I don't think Yoda was too far off from either, but he is old and perhaps doesn't have the stamina he used to...and the Emperor has a legion of force sensitive bodyguards (probably more of a factor than the entire army). Obi-Wan's power isn't displayed but he claims he became "more powerful" than Darth Vader "can possibly imagine" by letting himself get killed, and Luke Skywalker actually defeated Darth Vader in (an unfortunately pretty special effect free) grand finale combat (and then couldn't do anything to defend against the Emperor).

I'm not sure how the Avatar, any Avatar really, would fare against Jedi. The Avatar can bend energy and breaks threw all sorts of limitations on bending. Sure Korra showed that the Avatar is even more susceptible to sneak attack then the Jedi are (no precognitive defense here) and Jedi can attack at unlimited range and with stealth...but if we are assuming anything like a face to face fight...once the Avatar state is entered, all bets are off. Supposedly, the Comics show Darth Vader murder two squadrons of fighters and a garrison...but the Avatar can take out an entire army, or navy, or whatever and do it with little effort.

I don't think even in the EU we see such godly powers as Aang showed.

The "more powerful than you can imagine" was mostly hyperbole matching vader and his "This technological terror is nothing compared to the power of the force" or whatever the exact line was. Its technically true, since the force is literally a part of all creation. Its like pointing out that of course god is more powerful than a nuke, but just because god grants your prayers doesnt make YOU more powerful than a nuke. Obiwan was referring to how he would become one with the force. So yeah, that means he would become "more powerful than you can imagine" because he has become a part of the unlimited power that binds all of creation.

As for feats in eu, yeah, just hurling around star ships puts the eu feats on par with avatar state moves. Those star destroyers are so massive it would be like the avatar levitating half of fire nation and throwing it at the other half. And one more thing, the prophecy was stupid and so was everyone involved with it. The jedi actually being excited about discovering someone who could "bring balance to the force"? You idiots, the light side has been supreme in the galaxy for thousands of years, the dark side had been all but wiped out so long ago that only jedi historians even knew that sith had ever actually existed before darth maul showed up. What did you THINK balance would mean? If they actually thought anakin would "bring balance" they should have decapitated his childish butt right there at the first meeting.

But all that aside, in a round about way, anakin was the chosen one. He brought the dark side into ascendancy, then fathered a child who could bring down the sith again, basically starting from scratch because now both the jedi and the sith are gone, hence balance. Then the EU screwed that up by bringing in jedi after jedi that miraculously survived the purge, dozens of "emperors hands" and other sith trained random sorts, and basically screwed up the whole thing.

[Xondoure]

The "more powerful than you can imagine" was mostly hyperbole matching vader and his "This technological terror is nothing compared to the power of the force" or whatever the exact line was. Its technically true, since the force is literally a part of all creation. Its like pointing out that of course god is more powerful than a nuke, but just because god grants your prayers doesnt make YOU more powerful than a nuke. Obiwan was referring to how he would become one with the force. So yeah, that means he would become "more powerful than you can imagine" because he has become a part of the unlimited power that binds all of creation.

As for feats in eu, yeah, just hurling around star ships puts the eu feats on par with avatar state moves. Those star destroyers are so massive it would be like the avatar levitating half of fire nation and throwing it at the other half. And one more thing, the prophecy was stupid and so was everyone involved with it. The jedi actually being excited about discovering someone who could "bring balance to the force"? You idiots, the light side has been supreme in the galaxy for thousands of years, the dark side had been all but wiped out so long ago that only jedi historians even knew that sith had ever actually existed before darth maul showed up. What did you THINK balance would mean? If they actually thought anakin would "bring balance" they should have decapitated his childish butt right there at the first meeting.

But all that aside, in a round about way, anakin was the chosen one. He brought the dark side into ascendancy, then fathered a child who could bring down the sith again, basically starting from scratch because now both the jedi and the sith are gone, hence balance. Then the EU screwed that up by bringing in jedi after jedi that miraculously survived the purge, dozens of "emperors hands" and other sith trained random sorts, and basically screwed up the whole thing.

Minor nitpick: balance to the force does not mean Sith and Jedi with equal power. It means no Sith, because the Dark side is a disruption of the balance of the force.

[Chen]

Minor nitpick: balance to the force does not mean Sith and Jedi with equal power. It means no Sith, because the Dark side is a disruption of the balance of the force.

Eh from the movies it seems far more like the "evening out" thing is what actually occurred. Or you know, the prophesy was just bull.

[Traab]

Minor nitpick: balance to the force does not mean Sith and Jedi with equal power. It means no Sith, because the Dark side is a disruption of the balance of the force.

And how exactly is only having one side of the scale remotely balanced?

[The Glyphstone]

And how exactly is only having one side of the scale remotely balanced?

I think the argument is that it's not a scale. Balance is just the Force, the presence/use of the Dark Side is by definition an imbalance by turning an inherently good thing to selfish ends. It makes no sense, but it is the most-recent 'canon' explanation that I remember.

[Flickerdart]

Vader did kill all the Sith - he threw the Emperor down a well and then died himself.

[Traab]

Vader did kill all the Sith - he threw the Emperor down a well and then died himself.

Only because his son redeemed him. Had his kids actually died in childbirth with padme, then vader would likely have either eventually killed palpatine according to the rule of two, or been killed and replaced by palpatine and his latest apprentice. Luke's presence is the only reason the sith fell.

[Flickerdart]

Why it happened isn't important. Vader fulfilled the prophecy.

[Kitten Champion]

I think the argument is that it's not a scale. Balance is just the Force, the presence/use of the Dark Side is by definition an imbalance by turning an inherently good thing to selfish ends. It makes no sense, but it is the most-recent 'canon' explanation that I remember.

I've seen explanations for the Force which hearkens more to it's Daoist inspiration with Dark and Light merely being aspects of the same Living Force that one is supposed to maintain Balance within, and the endless conflicts the galaxy faces is from groups like the Jedi and the Sith using one to the exclusion of the other.

As you say, it's probably not canon anymore, but it was an explanation I appreciated since it makes the world more interesting than simply that everyone is screwed when Force users aren't rigid and boring monks.

[Traab]

Why it happened isn't important. Vader fulfilled the prophecy.

Why it happened IS important. Because Luke Skywalker is the only reason it ever happened. Luke Skywalker is the only reason it was ever in a place where it COULD happen. Had it not been for luke, the rebel alliance would have been crushed back in movie 1. The empire would have solidified its hold over the system, the last jedi (not brought up in the EU) would have died of old age, with noone to pass their teachings onto, and the dark side would have reigned supreme for lord knows how long. It all comes down to luke skywalker in the end.

[Flickerdart]

It all comes down to luke skywalker in the end.
No it doesn't. You could just as easily say that Jar Jar fulfilled the prophecy, because he got the senate to instate Palpatine which led to the whole Empire nonsense in the first place.

Luke played a role, but Darth Vader was the one whose actions directly slew the Sith. He fulfilled the prophecy.

[Forum Explorer]

The prequels make it pretty clear that he is supposed to be a very special person and that he is an unusually force-sensitive and powerful Jedi. Or in other words: His midi-chlorian count is over 9000!

But midi-chlorian count does not necessitate power. It could just as well be said to equal sensitivity to the force, which would explain Anakin's prophetic dreams.

[Reddish Mage]

One force user eats an entire planet's life force from orbit. (Darth Nihilus)

One force user brings the dead back to life. (Cade Skywalker)

One force user mind blanks tens of thousands of minds. (Emperor Palpatine)

Three force users have dropped their physical bodies and are now impervious to harm, although they wouldn't be doing much fighting either. (Qui-Gon, Yoda, Obi-Wan)
I had a feeling someone would bring up the ridiculous specifics I should try taking the opposite side more often, a lot less work to get the examples.

So EU basically turn Jedi into being such that it might be better to ask if they pwn Superman, or would it be an even fight?


And how exactly is only having one side of the scale remotely balanced?
There is no talk of a "light side" of the force, only a dark side. The Jedi religion is based (Lucas said this explicitly) on Daoist concepts that everything exists in balance. It isn't a philosophy that certain actions or things are innately evil and innately good, the balance is good and the disruption of the balance is evil.

The Jedi are not the light, the Jedi are the balance.


I think the argument is that it's not a scale. Balance is just the Force, the presence/use of the Dark Side is by definition an imbalance by turning an inherently good thing to selfish ends. It makes no sense, but it is the most-recent 'canon' explanation that I remember.
Clearly someone is stuck in a Western mindset.


No it doesn't. You could just as easily say that Jar Jar fulfilled the prophecy, because he got the senate to instate Palpatine which led to the whole Empire nonsense in the first place.

Luke played a role, but Darth Vader was the one whose actions directly slew the Sith. He fulfilled the prophecy.
Darth Binks! Its the fanon that Jar-Jar IS in fact the true Sith Lord and Palapitine is the puppet!

Seriously though, it doesn't matter who fufills the prophecy. What matters is that Darth Vader isn't shown to be head and shoulder above all the other Jedi. He is defeated by Luke, he is subservient to the Emperor, and Obi did a pretty good number on him back in the day. Bets that Yoda could keep toe to toe at least as long as he could hold out.

I don't care if his metaphilbotinum count is whatever, his force abilities are consistent with the other's as far as we can see...

[The Glyphstone]

Isn't that exactly what I said? It's not a good force vs. evil force thing, it's a balance = good, imbalance = evil thing?

[Forum Explorer]

Isn't that exactly what I said? It's not a good force vs. evil force thing, it's a balance = good, imbalance = evil thing?

You weren't verbose enough. Nobody reads a post that only a line of two. :smalltongue:

In otherwords Too Short, Didn't Read. :smallwink:

[Reddish Mage]

Isn't that exactly what I said? It's not a good force vs. evil force thing, it's a balance = good, imbalance = evil thing?


You weren't verbose enough. Nobody reads a post that only a line of two. :smalltongue:

In otherwords Too Short, Didn't Read. :smallwink:

I quoted Glyphstone in full. However, since I explain the "balance" explanation (which is original intent) at length I saw no reason to comment on it in my quote. I comment Glyph's claim that Jedi=balance Sith=unbalanced "makes no sense."

A "Manichean" (using language like that is a sophisticated way of insulting someone btw) sees things as having to exist in black and white, light vs dark, good vs evil. The Eastern mindset differs. I didn't think you really meant to suggest EVERUTHING has to be good or evil, but you did seem to imply it.

[Seppl]

But midi-chlorian count does not necessitate power. It could just as well be said to equal sensitivity to the force, which would explain Anakin's prophetic dreams.It is related to the potential power. Anakin was one of the most powerful Jedi just because of his raw natural talent and despite him not really following the way of the Jedi. If he actually listened to his teachers, instead of just living for the action, he could easily become the greatest force user of all time. He is a lot like Avatar Korra in that regard.

In a similar way, Avatar Aang has the most natural talent as a bender. Bending comes easily to him and he can bend huge amounts of material at once. But the finer details of a particular school of bending are something that he must learn through long and hard training. As he has to learn in one year what usually takes a decade (all while being on the run) he can still be challenged by bending masters, despite having a greater potential than they do. A fully realized Avatar, as we have seen in flashbacks, is a force that no regular bending master comes even close to match.

[Forum Explorer]

It is related to the potential power. Anakin was one of the most powerful Jedi just because of his raw natural talent and despite him not really following the way of the Jedi. If he actually listened to his teachers, instead of just living for the action, he could easily become the greatest force user of all time. He is a lot like Avatar Korra in that regard.


Well, no not necessarily. I don't think we ever see Vader or Anakin do anything that any other Jedi hasn't done before. Unless you have a source to back up that statement?

[Lizard Lord]

Wither it was good, or bad. Doesn't matter. If it was an amazing Movie that was totally ba. You would be using it here. The only reason you don't want to count it, is because you didn't like it.



It was movie adaptation of the first season of the cartoon show where all continued material of that franchise are clearly based on the cartoon and not the movie. It is no more in cannon with the rest of the franchise than the MCU is with the Marvel comics (excluding movie tie-in comics that is.)

That is why it is dismissed as a source.

[Darth Credence]

A few points.

1.) Lightsabers have as a critical component, crystals. Earthbenders have as an explicit power, the ability to control crystals. Erego, lightsabers stop working against Earthbenders once they figure out the trick. Which they would eventually.

2.) As previously stated, Jedi generally do not get into the realm of fantastic physical prowess for a reason. That reason is that it interferes with their foresight. Even the level of power demonstrated in the prequels was enough to cloud their vision. This is why Yoda went to Dagobah and stopped using the force for much. Same for Obi-wan. The force is a river, using it to throw cars muddies the water.

3.) By and large, while Jedi Knights are more trained, they are also fewer in number than benders. Meaning that the Earth Empire could field enough troops to figure out the trick mentioned in point 1, and then apply it.

For number 2 - none of that is currently canon. Canon is that Yoda was hiding in exile on Dagobah because they lost. The EU explanation of using the force too much is not relevant.


Benders don't necessarily have to have a direct connection to what they bend. It's a tad bit more difficult, as shown with the episode where Jet is introduced. But not impossible or even particularly hard.

And yes. Crystal is explicitly a form of earth in the avatarverse. Even moreso than metal.

Yes it is EU stuff, but so is Jedi having insane powers to begin with. And it's not so much holding back as it is Jedi have a choice between seeing the future and telekinesis. Generally they chose future sight.

Also I'm hardly a latecomer. I've been posting since page 3-4.

Jedi having insane powers is absolutely not EU stuff at this point. The new comic books are explicitly part of canon, every bit as much so as the movies. Vader effortlessly making his way through the army that surrounded him is what his powers are. Luke's abilities are also being shown growing, and he hasn't even had a trainer yet, mostly just what he got from Obi Wan and Obi Wan's journal.


I don't agree Vader was the chosen one (in fact I never understood what the prophecy was about or whether its been fufilled) or a new class of Jedi (and he is actually Sith). I think the Emperor was more powerful, as Vader acts as his flunky the whole time despite explicitly wanting to kill him and take his place.

Anakin was the chosen one, meant to balance the force, and he failed to do so, IMO. I don't know of anywhere that it has been explicitly stated, but my understanding was that he should have fulfilled the prophecy by taking over for the father on Mortis, thereby being able to control the Son and the Daughter, who were the dark side and light side, respectively. When he refused to take the Father's place, he basically blew off his duties as the chosen one.
As I said, this one is my interpretation, but I think it works. The Father was the anthropomorphic representation of the Force. He pulled the Chosen One in to take his place and maintain the balance. If that is not the prophecy, I don't know what is. Yoda's comment about the prophecy being misinterpreted by the Jedi would seem to back that up - he was never meant to destroy the Sith, but to keep either the Son or the Daughter from offing each other.

This would also be something that Anakin did that no other Jedi had done - been to Mortis and met with the incarnations of the force. Obi Wan and Ahsoka went with him, but they wouldn't have if he hadn't.

[Reddish Mage]

Didn't see that episode of ...clone wars? Is that a comic?

If there is anthropo force gods out there as part of canon...that is HIGHLY interesting.

I do recall the discussion was about whether Vader is in a class of his own or on par with any other Jedi/Force user

[dancrilis]

Didn't see that episode of ...clone wars? Is that a comic?

If there is anthropo force gods out there as part of canon...that is HIGHLY interesting.

I do recall the discussion was about whether Vader is in a class of his own or on par with any other Jedi/Force user

What exactly they were is somewhat left unstated, but here (http://www.starwars.com/databank/son), here (http://www.starwars.com/databank/daughter) and here (http://www.starwars.com/databank/father) are the entries on them.

Edit: also Mortis (http://www.starwars.com/databank/mortis) itself.

[Reddish Mage]

Anyway, I'm getting that the best Jedi/Sith can easily crush the Avatar using EU powers (their abilities against Superman would be interesting). I don't think the comics or Clone Wars show anything Avatar level however, at least nothing I have saw or heard of.

I think Darth Vader would likely take a hand or arm from Korra before she gets serious and brings down a hurricane on Vader...overwhelming his power absorption. She could even energy-bend his lightsaber, and that IS completely consistent with what we have seen her do with energy-bending, not this screwy speculation of Earthbenders doing whatever to the crystals that are encased in possibly unbendable metal

[Wardog]

Anyway, I'm getting that the best Jedi/Sith can easily crush the Avatar using EU powers (their abilities against Superman would be interesting).

Which Superman?

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--5pDbtwWE--/18d7ojlashc7ppng.png

[MLai]

Didn't see that episode of ...clone wars? Is that a comic? If there is anthropo force gods out there as part of canon...that is HIGHLY interesting.
More like highly stupid. Worse than midichlorians.



http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--5pDbtwWE--/18d7ojlashc7ppng.png
No chain like that can exist in the natural universe.

[Anteros]

You look at that picture, and the part you take issue with is the chain?

[druid91]

Anyway, I'm getting that the best Jedi/Sith can easily crush the Avatar using EU powers (their abilities against Superman would be interesting). I don't think the comics or Clone Wars show anything Avatar level however, at least nothing I have saw or heard of.

I think Darth Vader would likely take a hand or arm from Korra before she gets serious and brings down a hurricane on Vader...overwhelming his power absorption. She could even energy-bend his lightsaber, and that IS completely consistent with what we have seen her do with energy-bending, not this screwy speculation of Earthbenders doing whatever to the crystals that are encased in possibly unbendable metal

Ummm what.

Energy bending bends the life energy within a living creature. Allowing for the user to either give or take elements, though only the avatar can hold four due to the connection with Raava. It has litterally nothing at all to do with energy weapons. Given the total lack of energy weapons in the avatar-verse I have no clue where you came up with that.

It's hardly screwy. It's a logical question, given that by and large benders of the better sort are seen as pretty inquisitive fighters, it'd end up being tried by a metal bender eventually.

Two, comparing one of the greatest Sith lords with a barely realized Avatar is kind of a bum comparison. Though one problem with that is that you presume she won't just do what she usually does and just use the Avatar state as a booster rocket to kick someones rear. Not to mention that ANY firebender who can manipulate lightning would fry him. Given the Avatar-verse's tendency to use actually sensible fighting tactics (Most of the time anyway.) And ambush opponents. It's not hard to imagine Vader catching a lightning bolt or two and ending up dead.

Not to mention that lightsabers are fragile and being based off of actual martial arts benders have a tendency to do things like try to disarm their opponents.

Also, apologies for the late answer but Toph's style of Earth-bending was shown to have greatly influenced the entire modern lore of earth-bending. Literally every major force of Earth-benders with the exception of the quickly deposed Dai-Li was descended from her teachings. She wasn't very shy about telling people how she saw the world. And her daughter at least was blatantly shown using that power. It's not a stretch to presume it was introduced to what she taught her students. And from there it's not a stretch to presume it was passed down to pretty much anyone who's a metal bender or aspired to become one.