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Torek
2007-06-03, 05:33 AM
Hi all !

I was wondering about a few things concerning the bag of holding.

1. It says: "Even if the bag is filled to capacity the objects inside never damage or even touch one another...
if sharp objects pierce it (from inside)

How can a sharp object pierce the bag from the inside if they never touch one another. Do all objects touch the lining of the bag at any moment?
If yes still, how can anything pierce the lining? How is the force exerted on a dagger that I drop into the nondimensional space so that it pierces the lining?


2. Fluids: If I pour water into the sack it will not touch anything else. But how do I get it out again?
If the water is scalding hot while I pour it into the bag will it stay that way? Or can things cool down in a nondimensional space?

3. Burning things: Since creatures suffocate I surmise burning things also stop burning once the oxygen runs out?

4. Perishable things: For how long will a loaf of bread stay fresh? Will it mould?

Dervag
2007-06-03, 06:28 AM
Hi all !

I was wondering about a few things concerning the bag of holding.

1. It says: "Even if the bag is filled to capacity the objects inside never damage or even touch one another...
if sharp objects pierce it (from inside)

How can a sharp object pierce the bag from the inside if they never touch one another. Do all objects touch the lining of the bag at any moment?
If yes still, how can anything pierce the lining? How is the force exerted on a dagger that I drop into the nondimensional space so that it pierces the lining?

2. Fluids: If I pour water into the sack it will not touch anything else. But how do I get it out again?
If the water is scalding hot while I pour it into the bag will it stay that way? Or can things cool down in a nondimensional space?Beats me.


3. Burning things: Since creatures suffocate I surmise burning things also stop burning once the oxygen runs out?

4. Perishable things: For how long will a loaf of bread stay fresh? Will it mould?I would rule that burning things would burn until exhausting the oxygen supply in the bag as they would the oxygen supply of any other small enclosed space, and that perishables last exactly as long as they do when enclosed in a normal bag. After all, they're clearly surrounded by air. This air would contain the usual complement of mold spores and such, so the bread would go moldy just as it would normally.

Dihan
2007-06-03, 06:31 AM
Hi all !

I was wondering about a few things concerning the bag of holding.

1. It says: "Even if the bag is filled to capacity the objects inside never damage or even touch one another...
if sharp objects pierce it (from inside)

How can a sharp object pierce the bag from the inside if they never touch one another. Do all objects touch the lining of the bag at any moment?
If yes still, how can anything pierce the lining? How is the force exerted on a dagger that I drop into the nondimensional space so that it pierces the lining?


2. Fluids: If I pour water into the sack it will not touch anything else. But how do I get it out again?
If the water is scalding hot while I pour it into the bag will it stay that way? Or can things cool down in a nondimensional space?

3. Burning things: Since creatures suffocate I surmise burning things also stop burning once the oxygen runs out?

4. Perishable things: For how long will a loaf of bread stay fresh? Will it mould?

1/2/3/4: It's magic.

Ceres
2007-06-03, 06:48 AM
Of course the coolest thing to do with a bag of holding is turning it inside out, wrap it around you and walk through the dungeon walls :smallbiggrin:

Or would you just get a really big bag with extremely limited space? That would suck...

Gavin Sage
2007-06-03, 08:06 AM
Regarding:

1. The SRD says nothing about anything not touching. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bagofHolding) And mentions ruptures if too much is placed in the bag. So basically a bag of Holding is a big room, but still has limits. Presumably piercing from the inside would happen you threw an armed creature in there.

2. Fluid could not be retrieved easily but you could presumably use a scoop or something. As for temperature, it would probably cool down as nothing says anything is in stasis.

3. Yeah presumably

4. Conditions inside the bag we can probably assume would be "normal" conditions for decay for simplicity, nothing mentions stasis afterall.

Sutremaine
2007-06-03, 08:48 AM
Of course the coolest thing to do with a bag of holding is turning it inside out, wrap it around you and walk through the dungeon walls :smallbiggrin:
Through the walls? How? But that has given me an idea -- climb into a bag of holding, leaving only your arm outside the bag, and do your best Thing impression.

Bow2Gaijin
2007-06-03, 09:10 AM
For some real fun, put your bag of holding into a portable hole.

ufo
2007-06-03, 09:22 AM
[QUOTE=Sutremaine;2691658]Through the walls? How?QUOTE]

The theory assumes that it's because of the material the inside of the bag is made of. Thus turning it inside out and wearing it (:smallconfused: ) would create a non-dimensional space around you.

Which, would only allow like, half of you to get inside the wall :smallbiggrin: .

Bigmatt
2007-06-03, 09:30 AM
Hello
1. Objects in a bag of holding do interact with each other and the bag itself. So objects within the bag can harm each other and the bag. I presume filling it with acid would destroy the bag, for example. I would compare it to Dr. Who's TARDIS. Inside the bag is a little world of it's own, but it has outer edges.

2. To get fluid out of a BoH you would need to turn it inside out. Doing this empties all contents. I assume you could do this inside a barrel for example. If you fill it with water, your hand would get wet and i assume you could ladle it out slowly.

3. Burning things: I suspect that if you put a burning torch inside a BoH it would be destroyed (see above). I imagine the edges of the bag are still made of cloth, even if they are kind of "stretchy" on the inside. (I wonder if you could coat the inside of your bag of holding with something to protect it from piercing & burning). But yes, I think the air would run out, and the torch would go out eventually if the inside surface of the bag was not damaged. (But that is in the science of our world, which does not necessarily apply in a particular DMs d&d setting). I assume new air gets in when the bag is opened each time, but sealed when it is closed again. I would personally rule that a BoH left open would allow for a creature inside to keep breathing, since the "non-dimensional space" is always open to the outside.

4. Perishable things: The rotting process also requires oxygen, so a sealed airtight container such as a BoH would eventually kill all fungi etc. So the bread would stop going bad eventually. But if the bag were being opened and closed a lot then new air would get in, and the process would restart.

prufock
2007-06-03, 09:38 AM
Of course the coolest thing to do with a bag of holding is turning it inside out, wrap it around you and walk through the dungeon walls :smallbiggrin:

Or would you just get a really big bag with extremely limited space? That would suck...

The item description specifically eliminates this possibility:
"If a bag of holding is turned inside out, its contents spill out, unharmed, but the bag must be put right before it can be used again."

prufock
2007-06-03, 10:02 AM
1. It says: "Even if the bag is filled to capacity the objects inside never damage or even touch one another...
if sharp objects pierce it (from inside)
The description of a bag of holding does not include "Even if hte bag is filled to capacity the objects inside never damage or even touch one another" in either the 3.0 or 3.5 DMG or the SRD. From what source are you quoting?


How can a sharp object pierce the bag from the inside if they never touch one another. Do all objects touch the lining of the bag at any moment?
If yes still, how can anything pierce the lining? How is the force exerted on a dagger that I drop into the nondimensional space so that it pierces the lining?
A creature placed in the bag could cut it, or the bag could be overloaded. The premise that they never touch each other is incorrect, so that's irrelevant.


2. Fluids: If I pour water into the sack it will not touch anything else. But how do I get it out again?
Use some sort of container or turn the bag inside out (though that will remove all items, not just the water.


If the water is scalding hot while I pour it into the bag will it stay that way? Or can things cool down in a nondimensional space?
Since there is air inside the bag, that air must be at a certain temperature, so heat transfer between the water and air can occur. Since a living creature can survive in there, it's probably around room temperature, so the water should cool.


3. Burning things: Since creatures suffocate I surmise burning things also stop burning once the oxygen runs out?
Yes.


4. Perishable things: For how long will a loaf of bread stay fresh? Will it mould?
Yes, it would mould, but since mould requires oxygen and moisture, it would be limited in how long it could survive and how much it could spread.

Skyserpent
2007-06-03, 10:03 AM
I just imagine if an object is too big to fit into the bag, let's say a longspear, then it ends up poking through it when you try and fit it in, thus tearing it.

warty goblin
2007-06-03, 10:06 AM
For some real fun, put your bag of holding into a portable hole.

Or, if you really wanna make sure a guy is dead, perform the following steps:

1) Put bag of Holding over enemy's head
2) Poke hole in bag
3)???
4) Profit


OK, so it doesn't work too great on hydras...

Aquillion
2007-06-03, 10:22 AM
I would say no mold, not if you keep it closed. After all, the bag is comfirmed to be airtight when closed, which prevents mold from growing.

Renx
2007-06-03, 10:30 AM
To get fluid out, turn the bag upside down.

//Edit1: The nature of pocket dimensions and interdimensional storage spaces are left ambiguous for a reason: Players will exploit anything :P This reminds me of the Jackson document.

Stagger Lee
2007-06-03, 10:34 AM
According to the d20srd, sharp things do break the bag of holding, and there is a limited amount of air.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bagofHolding
I"f the bag is overloaded, or if sharp objects pierce it (from inside or outside), the bag ruptures and is ruined. All contents are lost forever. If a bag of holding is turned inside out, its contents spill out, unharmed, but the bag must be put right before it can be used again. If living creatures are placed within the bag, they can survive for up to 10 minutes, after which time they suffocate."

Now, with the suffocation thing, I've always thought it meant that there was a limited supply of air. It could be a magic thing. Assuming it's the first, if you put a Bottle Of Air inside a Bag Of Holding, and then put in an enchanted torch, it would still burn.

On a side note, I've been in groups where we put a bottle of air inside a BoH, had most people get into the bag, and had one person carry the bag places for transport. Dead useful.

Torek
2007-06-03, 10:58 AM
The description of a bag of holding does not include "Even if hte bag is filled to capacity the objects inside never damage or even touch one another" in either the 3.0 or 3.5 DMG or the SRD. From what source are you quoting?

I was quoting the wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bag_of_holding) but after this thread I decided to change the entry and remove the sentence.

Actually the BoH would be easier to handle if it were true (at least for the players).

Another question that I have is, how do you transport / carry your BoH? The description simply states it is 'a common cloth sack about 2 feet by 4 feet' and mentions no straps and no handles?

Renx
2007-06-03, 10:59 AM
Now, with the suffocation thing, I've always thought it meant that there was a limited supply of air. It could be a magic thing. Assuming it's the first, if you put a Bottle Of Air inside a Bag Of Holding, and then put in an enchanted torch, it would still burn.

On a side note, I've been in groups where we put a bottle of air inside a BoH, had most people get into the bag, and had one person carry the bag places for transport. Dead useful.

Yup. There are actually rules for suffocation and amount of air. Still, when the hole is closed, there is some leakage (compare the times of suffocation with the air-in-X-sized-room tables).

We used that once, too. An elevator where only one party member fit. Result: portable elevator :P

Stagger Lee
2007-06-03, 11:15 AM
Are the suffocation rules in the DMG?
It's been a while since I've ran a campaign.




Another question that I have is, how do you transport / carry your BoH? The description simply states it is 'a common cloth sack about 2 feet by 4 feet' and mentions no straps and no handles?

You can attach strands to the outside. Or you can pick it up with hands.

Torek
2007-06-03, 11:21 AM
You can attach strands to the outside.

But then you have to pierce the sack when sewing them on or how do you attach them?


Or you can pick it up with hands.

Obviously. But then you have to drop it each time you need both hands....

Stagger Lee
2007-06-03, 11:27 AM
But then you have to pierce the sack when sewing them on or how do you attach them?



Obviously. But then you have to drop it each time you need both hands....

(When I said Solvent, I meant Sovereign) Sovereign Glue.
And with the second one, the same thing applies with backpacks if you want decent movement rate.

TheOOB
2007-06-03, 12:28 PM
Just because the description doesn't mention draw strings or straps doesn't mean they arn't there, it individual appearance of any item is up to the DM.

At the very least you could tie the top part in a knot, and wrap a cord around it.

Aquillion
2007-06-03, 08:54 PM
Just put it in a slightly larger back with straps, and carry that.

ZeroNumerous
2007-06-03, 09:14 PM
I always imagined a Bag of Holding to be a Merry Poppins type bag. As such, all games I DM involving Bags of Holding have thousands of little Merry Poppins bags in them.

Ninja Chocobo
2007-06-04, 12:18 AM
Portable Holes have no such restrictions on being turned inside out, or being pierced, etc. Could you open up a Portable Hole on, say, a cloak, wrap it around yourself, and walk through the walls?
Also, if I were to fill one with Alchemists Fire, what would the damage be to anyone who fell in?

ZeroNumerous
2007-06-04, 12:54 AM
Portable Holes have no such restrictions on being turned inside out, or being pierced, etc. Could you open up a Portable Hole on, say, a cloak, wrap it around yourself, and walk through the walls?
Also, if I were to fill one with Alchemists Fire, what would the damage be to anyone who fell in?

1d6+X. X being the number of vials you place in there.

Torek
2007-06-04, 03:40 AM
Thanks for the answers so far.
The questions are a bit academical, I confess. But since my character uses a Bag of Holding I would like to flesh it out a bit.

Well if we assume that the items within interact with each other the question arises if they also interact with the outer world.
Meaning:
1. If you smash the BoH against a wall, what happens to the items inside?

2. If you pour a gallon of oil in will this oil coat all other items in the non-dimensional space? If yes, how?

3. If you fill the bag will it be visible from the outside? Will the volume of the bag expand if you fill it to the capacity?

4. Why has the BoH a length? I thougt you could stow a ladder inside? Wouldn't it be more practical to have a BoH that is only 2 feet long and 2 feet wide?

Renx
2007-06-04, 04:00 AM
1. If you smash the BoH against a wall, what happens to the items inside?

Nothing. It's a nondimensional space, the inside has nothing to do with the outside except for the hole.


2. If you pour a gallon of oil in will this oil coat all other items in the non-dimensional space? If yes, how?

Yes... assuming it hits them.


3. If you fill the bag will it be visible from the outside? Will the volume of the bag expand if you fill it to the capacity?

No and no. The weight and size of the bag are set. They do not change. Period.


4. Why has the BoH a length? I thougt you could stow a ladder inside? Wouldn't it be more practical to have a BoH that is only 2 feet long and 2 feet wide?

I can't remember the exact limits, but they're mostly for the exact reason that you can fit certain-sized items only.

There are also DMs who believe that if you try to put anything in that doesn't fit, the whole thing ruptures. I find this to be just a bit mean. They paid for the bag (or got it as loot), they should retain at least the use.

Personally, I'd go with the Garweeze Wurld definitions of bags of holding. They're much more sensible and useful. The DMG version is IMO a really cheap way of doing it.

Anyway, you should probably get a Haverd's Hoversack or a handy backpack(or whatever they were called) that has the item you seek instantly on top. Beats rummaging around the BoH by a mile.

(I actually put a cupboard in a BoH once. Made arranging things easy, and I could just throw things next to it easily. Also, if you have potions a reinforced+cushioned box is what you should go for)

Also, portable holes rule :P

Storm Bringer
2007-06-04, 04:13 AM
1. If you smash the BoH against a wall, what happens to the items inside?

2. If you pour a gallon of oil in will this oil coat all other items in the non-dimensional space? If yes, how?

3. If you fill the bag will it be visible from the outside? Will the volume of the bag expand if you fill it to the capacity?

4. Why has the BoH a length? I thougt you could stow a ladder inside? Wouldn't it be more practical to have a BoH that is only 2 feet long and 2 feet wide?

1) Nothing. the stuff not in the bag, it's on the other side of a portal with an entry/exit point in the bag.

2) I was told the bag was a little bit of one of the infnite planes which was sectioned off form the rest, with a portal linking to the bag. That place has gravity (i think, never heard of the bag being weightless inside), so pouring a gallon of oil into it would work just the same as pouring it into a space on earth.

3)the bag part you carry is a fixed volume and weight. Stuff just passes though the bag into the extrademensional space beyond.
Then again, if you want it too, I can't see why the bag of holding in your campgain can't expand in relation to how much is in it, if you want it to

4)...I'm not sure i follow the question. the bag can hold up to it's cubic volume/weight limit. you can pass any object that it below this limit into it. a ladder hasn't that big a volume (since it's quiet thin in two directions) or wieght, so you could just pass it in without effort.

Ninja Chocobo
2007-06-04, 04:36 AM
1d6+X. X being the number of vials you place in there.

Vials? No, I'm talking about filling it, like a bucket, full of Alchemist's Fire. Full Immersion, if you will. For lava, it's 20d6, and same with acid.

Torek
2007-06-04, 04:59 AM
4)...I'm not sure i follow the question. the bag can hold up to it's cubic volume/weight limit. you can pass any object that it below this limit into it. a ladder hasn't that big a volume (since it's quiet thin in two directions) or wieght, so you could just pass it in without effort.

My point was, that since it is kind of a portal to a non-dimensional space why has the bag to be so unwieldy and have a length of 4 feet?
Imagine a halfling, how should he transport that monster.

On the other hand since it has a fixed size can you not just fold it up and throw it into your backpack?

Storm Bringer
2007-06-04, 06:00 AM
more than likey. I can't really translate the given size/weight levels into a visable image of a sack filled to a certian level, so i can't say how much 'free' space you get to fold.

plus, putting the portal into something the size of a ladies handbag hasn't quite then same feel to it.

MariettaGecko
2007-06-04, 07:11 AM
As I understand it, a bag of holding must be capable of being closed with the item inside in order to place the item inside the bag. For instance, you cannot place a ladder inside the bag because it would not fit inside a normal bag of that size. Any individual object which was larger than the outside surface of the bag could not be placed inside, but anything smaller could be without problem, even if the bag would normally be too full to accept it (provided the bag hasn't yet reached the BoH volume limit).

The same thing is true of a Bag of Devouring. A bag of devouring requires that the bag be closed to make the item inside disappear.

Matthew
2007-06-08, 09:44 PM
You may be imagining this wrong. there is nothing about a Bag of Holding that implies it has any volume in the Material Plane beyond that of an empty sack or bag, no matter how full it is of stuff. You could just roll it up if you wanted.