Shot on the Run and Hide

[Zaetar]

So... I'm a scout/rogue, aka skirmish+sneak attack with manyshot, aka i need to hide.

I got Shot on the Run (http://dndtools.pw/feats/players-handbook-v35--6/shot-on-the-run--2618/) so i can move for skirmish and then move again to get some cover since at 30' the thing may get dangerous. But as i was reading about snipe attacks i got confused.

So... the idea would be:

Hide -> Move -> Attack with Manyshot, skirmish and sneak attack since i was hiding -> Move behind something and hide again?

I also got Able Sniper (http://dndtools.pw/feats/races-of-the-wild--84/able-sniper--17/) and Shadow Striker (http://dndtools.pw/feats/players-handbook-ii--80/shadow-striker--2564/).
Got +2 from equipment and +4 dex modifier, so my total skill check for hide would be like this:

12 (Hide ranks)+4 (Dex mod)+2 (Equipment)+5 (Shadow Striker)+4 (Able Sniper)= +27.

[sleepyphoenixx]

You can't use Manyshot with Shot on the Run since the feat only allows an attack action (a single attack), not a standard action.
You can't use Manyshot while sniping, only an attack action. You also take a -20 penalty to hide after sniping. And can't move while sniping unless you have Woodland Archer (RoTW).

What you're trying to do basically requires the "hiding while attacking" option, which adds a -20 penalty to your hide check. Since you're trying to do it on the run you also get another -5 if you move more than half your speed.
Unless you have HiPS you also need total cover/concealment to hide to break LoS.

Long story short? Unless you've got a seriously optimized hide check and HiPS don't even bother trying against anything with even a few ranks in spot.

[Zaetar]

You can't use Manyshot with Shot on the Run since the feat only allows an attack action (a single attack), not a standard action.


An attack action IS an standard action.

Standard Action
A standard action allows you to do something, most commonly make an attack or cast a spell. See Table: Actions in Combat for other standard actions.

[MisterKaws]

Try to get flight and talk your DM into retraining your Running Attack into Flyby Attack, then just keep flying REALLY low, and you'll have plenty of cover.

[Zaetar]

Thats a creative one, but my DM hates flying stuff... he avoids them like the plague.

Let me create a situation, the fight is in a forest, there are plenty of trees, fallen trees and bushes, meaning there is cover, concealment and total cover and concealment. Cant I move from behind a tree, shoot and then move behind the next tree? My target is fighting my party mates and im shooting from the sides and behind.

Every round lasts 6 seconds, i doubt that in 6 seconds the target can pay attention to the guy in full plate and the barbarian with a longsword in front of him AND to me shooting at him from the trees while also keeping track of where i am All at the same time.

It even sounds like it would require a concentration check or something to find me while doing that.

[nedz]

An attack action IS an standard action.

Standard Action
A standard action allows you to do something, most commonly make an attack or cast a spell. See Table: Actions in Combat for other standard actions.

An attack action is a type of standard action.
A standard action is not a type of attack action.
You need a standard action but only have an attack action.
What you need is Flight and Fly-by-Attack because Fly-by-Attack gives you a standard action.

[Zaetar]

An attack action is a type of standard action.
A standard action is not a type of attack action.
You need a standard action but only have an attack action.
What you need is Flight and Fly-by-Attack because Fly-by-Attack gives you a standard action.

Okay lets clear this out, no flying stuff T-T.

So... then an attack action is a normal shot that anyone can do while Manyshot is like a special attack where I do something different instead of just a modified attack action?

As in... Standard Actions:
-Attack action
-Bull Rush
-Overrun
-Manyshot?

[nedz]

Okay lets clear this out, no flying stuff T-T.

So... then an attack action is a normal shot that anyone can do while Manyshot is like a special attack where I do something different instead of a modified attack action?

I was typing my post when you made the comment about flying, but do compare the wording of the two feats anyway.

You still haven't got the point about standard actions.

Manyshot requires a Standard Action but whilst Fly-by-Attack gives you a standard action in the middle of your movement, Shot on the Run only gives you an attack action in the middle of your movement.

There is a whole list of things (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#standardActions) which are Standard Actions, one of which is an Attack Action; but the relationship is one way.

It's like saying a Cow is an Animal implies that an Animal is a Cow.

[Zaetar]

Flyby Attack is 3.0? Well anyway I would need to remake my character to make it fly and then reorganize the feats... sigh, alright gotta remake my strategy now.

I would be getting like -40 penalization if I wanted to hide after moving and then Manyshooting, right? Or I should try better luck at getting a ring of blinking? Since i only want to hide to get the sneak attack bonus. Or should just let my teammates trip, ensnare, flank or something whatever im shooting.

I guess i could make a future sniping PC with this in mind aswell.
Maybe... Woodland Archer + Shot on the Run + Shadow Striker + Able Sniper?

[Darrin]

But as i was reading about snipe attacks i got confused.

So... the idea would be:

Hide -> Move -> Attack with Manyshot, skirmish and sneak attack since i was hiding -> Move behind something and hide again?


Do not use the sniping rules. They are unnecessary.

So long as you meet the two requirements for hide (1. must have concealment or cover, and 2. must not be observed), you can make a Hide check as part of any type of movement. It's difficult to hide after making an attack, but not impossible... you just take a -20 penalty to your Hide check. If you've properly optimized your Hide check, then this shouldn't be a problem.

So yes, you can use Shot on the Run to move -> attack -> move + hide. Your Hide check will have a -20 penalty, but with +27 it sounds like you've got that pretty well covered.

The Manyshot/Attack Action problem is most likely the PHB designers being sloppy with language (and possibly not having a rigorous understanding of how the action economy worked). It's a reasonable houserule to allow Manyshot to work with Shot on the Run, even though by strict RAW the Manyshot standard action isn't explicitly compatible with Shot on the Run. If you want to use Woodland Archer... then you may want to clarify with the DM how that works with Manyshot as well. You only get the +4 attack bonus from Woodland Archer on subsequent arrows, while Manyshot specifies that the arrows it shoots are simultaneous. So there's no chance to "correct your aim" (the Manyshot arrows are all being aimed simultaneously).

Hmm. Just looking at Woodland Archer, and the text for Moving Sniper is wrong. It says characters without this feat can't hide when they shoot + move, but they actually can. So long as you meet the two conditions for hide, you can combine a Hide check with any type of movement, just with a -20 penalty for attacking. All the Sniper Rules do is let you stay in the same place to continue hiding. Otherwise, you're usually bouncing back and forth between two squares.

[MisterKaws]

Maybe dipping swordsage would help a bit, it has a lot of hiding stuff and also a lot of movement-related stuff.

[nedz]

Flyby Attack is 3.0?

Flyby Attack is in 3.5 also (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#flybyAttack). It's in the MM.

[Zaetar]

I dont think i'll lose anything by trying to negotiate the manyshot+shot on the run thing... I just need more Hide if I can then. Well, even if i dont manage to hide myself for some reason I still get total cover so I'm quite safe which is the second objective of hiding... I'm quite fragile from being scout/rogue, a +1 Con mod and the Quick trait (-1 hp on every HD).

The DM can also throw in something with blindsight or tremorsense to "counter" me if i seem to be getting out of control so it can be balanced pretty well, what were the PHB authors thinking when they wrote all those rules?

Anyway, Thanks for the feedback! Long live the playground o/o/o/o/

[nedz]

Deadeye Shot ( Player's Handbook II p78) is worth a look, but it only works with sneak and not skirmish.

Rogue / Scout is tricky because you have to meet two conditions to get off all of your extra damage. This makes it harder to do.

It is better to only have to meet one condition.

Rogue / Ranger works because you get some free feats and slightly more BAB, as well as sneak damage. You probably want more Rogue than Ranger.

Scout / Ranger works well because of Swift Hunter. Scout 3 / Ranger 17 is optimal, though Scout 4 / Ranger 16 has some good points — this has been heavily debated. There is even a handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=103).

[MisterKaws]

The DM can also throw in something with blindsight or tremorsense to "counter" me if i seem to be getting out of control so it can be balanced pretty well, what were the PHB authors thinking when they wrote all those rules?

Grab Darkstalker from LoM, nothing's gonna be able to bypass your skill checks.

[Curmudgeon]

Grab Darkstalker from LoM, nothing's gonna be able to bypass your skill checks.
Darkstalker doesn't augment your skill checks at all.

It does make those skill checks apply more often. Creature's got Scent? They still need a Hide or Listen check to notice you. But you're still screwed on Mindsight and a few other senses.

[Darrin]

The DM can also throw in something with blindsight or tremorsense to "counter" me if i seem to be getting out of control so it can be balanced pretty well, what were the PHB authors thinking when they wrote all those rules?


The Darkstalker feat (Lords of Madness) counters most of the *splat*-senses.

As far as the designers go, the rules for hiding are confusing. I think Curmudgeon is the only one that understands them completely.

The 3.0 PHB doesn't have the sniping rule, and it doesn't specify an action type, but it does appear to assume you're using a move action. The -20 penalty applies when running or charging. In the 3.5 PHB, attacking was added to running and charging. The 3.5 version adds the sniper rule, and specifies the action required: no action, but it "piggybacks" on some type of movement. The designer who added the sniper rule may not have been aware that you could hide after an attack, or may not have understood how the action rules had changed in 3.5. Even under the 3.0 rules, you could still hide if taking a 5' step or staying in the same square because 0 feet is less than half your speed... which makes me wonder why the sniper rule was necessary if the existing rule already covers it.

If you want to see a rules authority get completely confused by their own rules, you can attempt to read the FAQ entry that tries to explain how a ranger attacks while using hide in plain sight/camouflage.

[nedz]

Woodland Archer ( Races of the Wild p154) is supposed to help with sniping, though I'm not convinced by this feat.

It is a tactical feat with three uses, the last says

To use this maneuver, you must succeed on a sniping attack (see the Hide skill description, page 76 of the Player's Handbook), both hitting your intended target and successfully hiding thereafter. If no one sees you, you can make a sniping attack again in the following round, taking a single move after your attack and before you hide (characters without this feat can only shoot and hide, not move as well). As long as you continue to hit the target and avoid detection from an enemy, you can make a sniping attack on the move each round.

I was under the impression that Hide is part of a move anyway — so I thought you could do this without the feat ?

This is an alternative approach for Manyshot, though it's of no use to a Scout.

[Zaetar]

I was under the impression that Hide is part of a move anyway — so I thought you could do this without the feat ?

This is an alternative approach for Manyshot, though it's of no use to a Scout.

"As long as you continue to hit the target and avoid detection from an enemy, you can make a sniping attack on the move each round."

After all this i concluded that the entire turn where you want to make a snipe attack it can be fragmented like this.
Movement Action before attacking while hiding.
Attack action = sniping.
Chance of hiding again with -20 on the spot.
End of the turn.

This actually sounds ridiculous... "OMG i cant move! Lets pray the knight 25' in front of me thinks im a tree or something". This is almost as ridiculous as Skyrim's stealth mechanics for perpetual surprise turns... *arrow through the chest* "Whos there?!" *Hide check succeeds* "Must have been my imagination".

With Woodland Archer this would look like this:
Movement Action before attacking while hiding.
Attack action = sniping.
Movement Action after attacking gives you a chance at hiding again with -20.
End of the turn.

Which is pretty much what Shot on the Run allows you to do though... only restricted to snipe attacks.
Wooland Archer = 2 Feats, 6 levels for movement after a snipe attack only.
Shot on the Run = 3 Feats, 4 levels for movement before and after any sort of attack action including snipe attack since it just is a normal and simple attack action while you are hiding.

And why on earth do i need a feat for something so simple like moving from my hiding spot to shoot and then take cover again? I mean sure, the target may figure out where he was shot from but then again, it may not. I still think there should be a concentration check to find a sniper if the target is already fighting someone else.

13 years old kids playing cowboys or cops have been doing that for years but my 74 years old elf ranger needs 6 levels and yet another feat to do it? Sniper attack should be like that from the very beginning. I wonder how bad an actual army sniper would laugh if they read the snipe attack description, and how drunk the authors were when they wrote this.

[Elxir_Breauer]

Do also keep in mind the -1 per 10' between you and the target rule on their Spot/Perception check to actually see you. This may not make MUCH difference, but sometimes all you need is an extra 1-3 points to be practically invisible.

[Crake]

This actually sounds ridiculous... "OMG i cant move! Lets pray the knight 25' in front of me thinks im a tree or something". This is almost as ridiculous as Skyrim's stealth mechanics for perpetual surprise turns... *arrow through the chest* "Whos there?!" *Hide check succeeds* "Must have been my imagination".

Do remember that only a terrible DM would run it this way. The hide check is to make it so that they can't see you. People aren't babies who forget someone's there as soon as they can no longer see them, they have memory retention, and remember the fact that someone just shot them, and generally, just because they can't see you, doesn't mean they will stop looking for you. And remember, if you're hiding behind something, all that needs to happen is the enemy approaches you and gets to a point where the cover is no longer between the two of you.

As for how it would all work, you'd need a second move action (using hustle or a belt of battle), since hiding after sniping is a move action. You would also need to use the moving between cover rules from the rules compendium if you are ever completely out in the open: "Move between Cover: If you’re already hiding thanks to cover or concealment, and you have at least 5 ranks in Hide, you can make a Hide check (with a penalty) to try to move across an area that doesn’t offer cover or concealment without revealing yourself. For every 5 ranks in Hide you possess, you can move up to 5 feet between one hiding place and another. For every 5 feet of open space you must cross between hiding places, you take a –5 penalty on your Hide check. Movement speed penalizes the check as normal."

That said, how do you envision this working? Why not just stay behind cover and snipe from there without moving?

Edit: Oh, you want to move for skirmish. Your best bet in that case would be something like travel devotion instead (or the hustle psionic power if you can manage it somehow), move 10ft around from cover to cover using the move between cover rule, then use your move action to snipe. It'll be two hide checks with varying penalties, but should serve your purpose well enough.

Edit2: Really though, the best solution would be a level in swordsage at level 5 (so your initiator level is 3) and grab cloak of deception. That way, every second round you can get a manyshot sneak attack/skirmish off without any need for feats like shot on the run or whatnot. Protip: get greater manyshot so you can get precision damage on all of your manyshot arrows.

[DEMON]

Even without the supremenly crappy Shot on the Run feat, you should be able to move at your speed + use a standard action + 5tf step.

So if you can move from cover towards another cover and stop 5 feet away from it, then (greater) manyshot your opponent(s) and 5ft. step into said cover, you should be good.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Even without the supremenly crappy Shot on the Run feat, you should be able to move at your speed + use a standard action + 5tf step.

So if you can move from cover towards another cover and stop 5 feet away from it, then (greater) manyshot your opponent(s) and 5ft. step into said cover, you should be good.

You can only take a 5ft step if you don't perform any other movement that round.

And seriously, if you want to play a stealth-focused character? Get HiPS. It's pretty much the only way to make that playstyle practical.

[Curmudgeon]

Even without the supremenly crappy Shot on the Run feat, you should be able to move at your speed + use a standard action + 5tf step.
No, not that combination.
Take 5-Foot Step

You can move 5 feet in any round when you don’t perform any other kind of movement.
If you move your speed, or take a 5' step, you can't do the other in that round.

[Zaetar]

Do remember that only a terrible DM would run it this way. The hide check is to make it so that they can't see you. People aren't babies who forget someone's there as soon as they can no longer see them, they have memory retention, and remember the fact that someone just shot them, and generally, just because they can't see you, doesn't mean they will stop looking for you. And remember, if you're hiding behind something, all that needs to happen is the enemy approaches you and gets to a point where the cover is no longer between the two of you.

As for how it would all work, you'd need a second move action (using hustle or a belt of battle), since hiding after sniping is a move action. You would also need to use the moving between cover rules from the rules compendium if you are ever completely out in the open: "Move between Cover: If you’re already hiding thanks to cover or concealment, and you have at least 5 ranks in Hide, you can make a Hide check (with a penalty) to try to move across an area that doesn’t offer cover or concealment without revealing yourself. For every 5 ranks in Hide you possess, you can move up to 5 feet between one hiding place and another. For every 5 feet of open space you must cross between hiding places, you take a –5 penalty on your Hide check. Movement speed penalizes the check as normal."

That said, how do you envision this working? Why not just stay behind cover and snipe from there without moving?

Edit: Oh, you want to move for skirmish. Your best bet in that case would be something like travel devotion instead (or the hustle psionic power if you can manage it somehow), move 10ft around from cover to cover using the move between cover rule, then use your move action to snipe. It'll be two hide checks with varying penalties, but should serve your purpose well enough.

Edit2: Really though, the best solution would be a level in swordsage at level 5 (so your initiator level is 3) and grab cloak of deception. That way, every second round you can get a manyshot sneak attack/skirmish off without any need for feats like shot on the run or whatnot. Protip: get greater manyshot so you can get precision damage on all of your manyshot arrows.

Mhm... I'll try talking about this with my DM to see if we reach to an agreement or some houseruling. I'm the first player he has that goes for hiding tactics so hes not that used to it. Hes used to play creatures that do hide with invisibility and blink but not Hide, and players just counter it by having blindsight, blindsense, tremorsense or doing something to make them visible or able to be hit.

I need to move 10ft for skirmish, 20ft for improved skirmish, I also need to be hidden for the flat footed bonus and get sneak attack aswell.

But i guess i'll turn this PC into something more combat oriented, if I go for greater manyshot then many targets will get hit from the same direction, and if we put that in D&D terms we could say they get a bonus for each other ally that was hit from X direction... Perhaps i can negotiate a remake of my pc, will put my DM more at ease i think. And will make the campaign go smoother without making checks we are not sure we have to make.

However... Move Silently checks to move from cover to cover, Hide checks that can be done during a move action (be it before or after, if you get shot on the run)... And I liked the idea of staying behind cover while sniping, a separate hide roll for the moment when you show yourself to shoot and another when you get back behind cover to remain hiding? This would make nice and simple house rules.
Maybe i could use it on another PC... one with not so many issues lol.

Btw where are the cover to cover rules? rules compendium?

[Curmudgeon]

Btw where are the cover to cover rules? rules compendium?
Complete Adventurer on pages 101-102.

[DEMON]

You can only take a 5ft step if you don't perform any other movement that round.

And seriously, if you want to play a stealth-focused character? Get HiPS. It's pretty much the only way to make that playstyle practical.


No, not that combination.
If you move your speed, or take a 5' step, you can't do the other in that round.

And again, I am wrong. Sorry about that, OP.

Sometimes I am really glad we don't know, (or ignore) some of the rules.

We've been moving and 5ft. stepping for 15 years and never noticed this was against RAW.

[Crake]

And again, I am wrong. Sorry about that, OP.

Sometimes I am really glad we don't know, (or ignore) some of the rules.

We've been moving and 5ft. stepping for 15 years and never noticed this was against RAW.

How did you never notice that your houserule made the withdraw action completely obselete?

[DEMON]

How did you never notice that your houserule made the withdraw action completely obselete?

Trust me, you're better off not knowing.

On a side note, I find it funny that you can take a move action before/afer casting a spell and flying creatures (that already have an advantage over ground based ones) only need to take 1 feat to do all sorts of actions mid-flight, while the mundanes need to spend a couple of feats for a weaker version of this ability.

[Curmudgeon]

On a side note, I find it funny that you can take a move action before/afer casting a spell and flying creatures (that already have an advantage over ground based ones) only need to take 1 feat to do all sorts of actions mid-flight, while the mundanes need to spend a couple of feats for a weaker version of this ability.
You're just now noting that WotC has a policy whereby mundanes can't have nice things?

:confused:

[nedz]

You're just now noting that WotC has a policy whereby mundanes can't have nice things?

:confused:

It's because it would be unrealistic.

[DEMON]

You're just now noting that WotC has a policy whereby mundanes can't have nice things?

:confused:

Nah, just pointing out yet another example of that fact.