Battlemaster / Swashbuckler multiclass build?

[NiklasWB]

Hey everyone,

I have been thinking about creating a new character with the classic "duelist swashbuckler" in mind for an upcoming campaign. Think Inigo Montoya in terms of fighting and with a healthy dose of Autolycus from Xena in terms of personality thown into the mix.

Before the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide came out I had him pegged as a stright-up Battlemaster fighter with no multi-classing since I didn't feel any of the archtypes for the Rogue fit well enough with my concept. However, now that the Swashbuckler is availible, I thought I should ask you guys if anyone has had a chance to play around with a Battlemaster / Swashbuckler multiclass build yet. Or if not, if you guys have any advise or ideas about a good build.

So my base questions would be this:

1. Should I just skip the swashbuckler and go all-out Fighter? Better hp, 4 attacks at level 20... basically, is Swashbuckler worth the dip?

2. Should I start with Figher or Rogue? More skills etc with rogue, but more weapons and armor options with fighter? I'm obviously going to go high DEX, rapier, and studded leather, and probably a shield for +2 to AC, and the Dueling fighting style.

3. How many levels should I take in Figher and in Rogue, and in what order?
So far I've been thinking about either Figher 17/Rogue 3, or Fighter 11/Rogue 9, but I have no idea about what the order should be.

I've read a few people saying Battlemaster isn't worth going all-out in since you pick from the same list of maneuvers all the time, from your most favorite at level 3 to you least favorite later on.

Any ideas and pointers would be appreciated. Especially concerning what levels to take in the two classes.

Thanks!

[Groggen]

This is mostly due to my own preferances, but I would go Rogue 17/Fighter 3. Battlemaster for the maneuvers and two-weapon fighting style. Pick up Dual Wielder feat for the ability to use 2 rapiers and gain +1 AC. The rogue would give you Sneak Attack (up to 9d6), more, and better thanks to Expertise, skills and some nice fitting abilities along the way. The Fancy Footwork gives you the option to hit and run, so the bonus action attack is viable too.

[djreynolds]

Hey everyone,

I have been thinking about creating a new character with the classic "duelist swashbuckler" in mind for an upcoming campaign. Think Inigo Montoya in terms of fighting and with a healthy dose of Autolycus from Xena in terms of personality thown into the mix.

Before the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide came out I had him pegged as a stright-up Battlemaster fighter with no multi-classing since I didn't feel any of the archtypes for the Rogue fit well enough with my concept. However, now that the Swashbuckler is availible, I thought I should ask you guys if anyone has had a chance to play around with a Battlemaster / Swashbuckler multiclass build yet. Or if not, if you guys have any advise or ideas about a good build.

So my base questions would be this:

1. Should I just skip the swashbuckler and go all-out Fighter? Better hp, 4 attacks at level 20... basically, is Swashbuckler worth the dip?

2. Should I start with Figher or Rogue? More skills etc with rogue, but more weapons and armor options with fighter? I'm obviously going to go high DEX, rapier, and studded leather, and probably a shield for +2 to AC, and the Dueling fighting style.

3. How many levels should I take in Figher and in Rogue, and in what order?
So far I've been thinking about either Figher 17/Rogue 3, or Fighter 11/Rogue 9, but I have no idea about what the order should be.

I've read a few people saying Battlemaster isn't worth going all-out in since you pick from the same list of maneuvers all the time, from your most favorite at level 3 to you least favorite later on.

Any ideas and pointers would be appreciated. Especially concerning what levels to take in the two classes.

Thanks!

I like the idea of using precision to help land hits, perhaps parry but redundant with uncanny dodge, trip, feint seems appropriate, disarm but I think it needs strength, riposte. BM gets superiority at 3, 7, 10,15 so these should be points to stop BM. 8 fighter/12 rogue I think is 7 ASI

If precision is all you want than perhaps the 3 BM would do it. But I'm thinking 8 fighter/12 rogue. Plenty of feats, 6d6 SA, 2 attacks and 1 off-hand. And 6 to 7 ASI

I would go rogue, only because it seems you need persuasion and its on the rogue list. But going fighter gets you con and str saves, and having prof in str may save you from landing on you but if you have low strength.

I think a paladin smites at the most for 5d8, plus his extra radiant damage at 11, so 6d8. So with 12 levels of rogue, your damage is comparable in that regard, 6d6 vs 6d8.

I'm playing just a thief now, and right now at 4th level he's a wrecking machine. Its all about landing your sneak attack. 6 fighter just gives you 3 chances (assuming TWF-2 main hand/1 off hand) instead of 2 chances (main hand/off hand) to land that SA damage.

Also, think about, with all your ASI, really hard, about adding a bow to your weapons. Lots of maneuvers work with ranged attacks and if you are fighting hordes the sharpshooter feat gives you another option to take advantage of your high dexterity and 2 attacks.

[NiklasWB]

Thanks for the input guys. I'm not going to go for two-weapon fighting though, since it clashes with the concept of a single wielding duelist. The only off-hand option in terms of character concept is a buckler shield (propably fluffed into a duelist glove/gauntlet).

Also, I see this character as more of a Fighter than a Rogue. I've played pure Rogues before, and I feel like I want to be up at the frontlines more with this character, not so much hit-and-run.

Thirdly, I really want the third attack from the Fighter with this character, so a minumum of 11 levels in Fighter is probably locked in. This would give me 5d6 Sneak Attack from the 9 levels of Rogue, with 3 attacks of rapier at 1d8+ dmg every round. Surely this would be better than 2 attacks with 1d8+ and 6d6 Sneak attack.

In terms of Battlemaster maneuvers I'm thinking Disarming attack (I can pick DEX or STR for this), Ripost, Precision attack, Parry, Feinting attack, Trip attack, and maybe Pushing attack.

The persuation skill I can easily get from a background. Is it still better to start off with the Rogue? How many levels should one take before multiclassing? I've read that 5 levels is kind of the magical number.

I don't think damage is the core concern with this character, as I see him more of a evasive/parrying tank.

In terms of ranged weapons I'll have to give that some thought. I think adding a crossbow of some kind might be a good idea, but I'll probably not use any feats for that or add a bow. The character is an all-out melee focused character after all.

Given the 11 levels in fighter to get the third attack, how many levels would you go in Rogue?
3 levels Rogue (swashbuckler archetype: fancy footwork, rackish audacity) + (more action surge and indomitable)
5 levels Rogue (uncanny dodge) + (max maneuvers and max superiority die for Battlemaster, and Relentless - to always have one superiority die at the start of combat)
9 levels Rogue (evasion, panache) + ((more maneuvers more superiority die for Battlemaster)

Looking at it now I think a 5 level or 9 level dip in Rogue might be better than simple 3 levels...

[djreynolds]

If you are going to use a buckler, you will have 4 skills that you can expertise and plenty of feats. Expertise in even 10 str will net you a score of 12 by level 20, 1 more than a 20 level fighter with +5 str bonus.

Shield master is an easy way to use your bonus action to shove and gain advantage when facing multiple enemies. It could prove very valuable.

[Waazraath]

Well... i always thought one of the nicest things of the combo rogue / battlemaster is the 'riposte' maneuver, so you can trigger sneak attack two times in one round (one time in your turn, another in the monster's turn). If you want to use that, I'd max sneak attack, and since fighter 11 is a given, I'd go fighter 11 / rogue 9

[NiklasWB]

Well... i always thought one of the nicest things of the combo rogue / battlemaster is the 'riposte' maneuver, so you can trigger sneak attack two times in one round (one time in your turn, another in the monster's turn). If you want to use that, I'd max sneak attack, and since fighter 11 is a given, I'd go fighter 11 / rogue 9

Interesting. Has it been confirmed anywhere that sneak attack can be used both in the player's turn and in a monster's turn? That seems almost a bit too powerful.

[Malifice]

This is mostly due to my own preferances, but I would go Rogue 17/Fighter 3. Battlemaster for the maneuvers and two-weapon fighting style. Pick up Dual Wielder feat for the ability to use 2 rapiers and gain +1 AC. The rogue would give you Sneak Attack (up to 9d6), more, and better thanks to Expertise, skills and some nice fitting abilities along the way. The Fancy Footwork gives you the option to hit and run, so the bonus action attack is viable too.

If you're going fightet to 3, you might as well ride it out to 5 for extra attack.

You get a lot more mileage out of cunning action that way with 2 chances to land a sneak attack with your action each round.

[Waazraath]

Interesting. Has it been confirmed anywhere that sneak attack can be used both in the player's turn and in a monster's turn? That seems almost a bit too powerful.

I haven´t asked anybody official, but it´s something I´ve seen more often on fora, and besides, it fits what´s in the PHB. The combat chapter starts with definitions on ´turn´and ´round´, and sneak attack mentions specificly ´turn´. So I guess it´s both legal and intentionally.

Don´t forget, it´s quite diffficult to have a reliable reaction attack. Shadow monk can, but only at lvl 17+ ranger at lvl 3 (one of the hunter options), but that one is situational; the beserker barbarian, but also rather late game I think (afb but 14 I think); and the battle master, but that's only a few times / short rest.

[Ieronimus]

I personally think that sneak attack shouldn't work on enemy's turn, but if you want to go down this optimization road, consider using some homebrew feats (I prefer Acrobat, Sword mastery and Unarmored defence for my Bronn-like character).
Also one of the most interesting systems I would use with duelist built is the one presented in Dragon magazine N232. It gets well in line with Bm maneuvers and features some cool Zorro moves

[bid]

Interesting. Has it been confirmed anywhere that sneak attack can be used both in the player's turn and in a monster's turn? That seems almost a bit too powerful.
Well, it's once per turn, not once per round. No need for further confirmation, RAW is clear enough.

[Grixis]

I haven´t asked anybody official, but it´s something I´ve seen more often on fora, and besides, it fits what´s in the PHB. The combat chapter starts with definitions on ´turn´and ´round´, and sneak attack mentions specificly ´turn´. So I guess it´s both legal and intentionally.

Don´t forget, it´s quite diffficult to have a reliable reaction attack. Shadow monk can, but only at lvl 17+ ranger at lvl 3 (one of the hunter options), but that one is situational; the beserker barbarian, but also rather late game I think (afb but 14 I think); and the battle master, but that's only a few times / short rest.

As far as I know, there are only a few ways to perform two sneak attacks in one round.

The first is to use your action surge as a fighter to 'ready' an attack. This way you can use your reaction to deliver a sneak attack on someone else's turn. The only issue here is that you can only do it once per short rest. That said, being able to sneak attack in one round only once per short rest is PLENTY.

The other way is to cross-class as a Frenzy Barbarian since the Frenzy bonus action attack does not require you to use the Attack Action to use.
You can use your bonus action on your turn to deliver the sneak attack on your turn, then use your action to ready an attack on someone else's turn.

[djreynolds]

I think after review, the swashbuckler was made to multiclass with the battlemaster. 13 swashbuckler/ 7 battlemaster is fits too perfectly together to be a coincidence

[MrStabby]

As far as I know, there are only a few ways to perform two sneak attacks in one round.

The first is to use your action surge as a fighter to 'ready' an attack. This way you can use your reaction to deliver a sneak attack on someone else's turn. The only issue here is that you can only do it once per short rest. That said, being able to sneak attack in one round only once per short rest is PLENTY.

The other way is to cross-class as a Frenzy Barbarian since the Frenzy bonus action attack does not require you to use the Attack Action to use.
You can use your bonus action on your turn to deliver the sneak attack on your turn, then use your action to ready an attack on someone else's turn.

Couldn't you do similar with haste? Use your main action to ready an action and the supplementary one to sneak attack?

[Nu]

I think I'd agree with the Person Man guide here--level 7 is the breakpoint for the rogue, once you get Evasion and a 4d6 Sneak Attack, it's probably better to start taking fighter levels, because your other features that you get for the first 3 levels of fighter are more useful than what you get out of those rogue levels. And then you can commit to fighter all the way for the rest of the character's life to get more maneuvers, superiority dice, and feats.

If you want to get into melee right away, I'd recommend starting as fighter just so you can use a shield and have a more comfortable AC/HP for melee combat--medium armor and a shield will outpace studded leather and no shield at pretty much any level. If you're okay risking yourself in melee or sticking to range early on, it's okay to start as a rogue. Personal taste here, I feel, and I know this opinion differs from the rest of the thread, but it's what I'd do! Start as a fighter, take 7 levels in rogue, then go fighter rest of the way, probably.

[djreynolds]

I think I'd agree with the Person Man guide here--level 7 is the breakpoint for the rogue, once you get Evasion and a 4d6 Sneak Attack, it's probably better to start taking fighter levels, because your other features that you get for the first 3 levels of fighter are more useful than what you get out of those rogue levels. And then you can commit to fighter all the way for the rest of the character's life to get more maneuvers, superiority dice, and feats.

If you want to get into melee right away, I'd recommend starting as fighter just so you can use a shield and have a more comfortable AC/HP for melee combat--medium armor and a shield will outpace studded leather and no shield at pretty much any level. If you're okay risking yourself in melee or sticking to range early on, it's okay to start as a rogue. Personal taste here, I feel, and I know this opinion differs from the rest of the thread, but it's what I'd do! Start as a fighter, take 7 levels in rogue, then go fighter rest of the way, probably.

Swashbuckler gets advantage on athletic/acrobatic checks at level 13 and it could prove very valuable shoving around nasty opponents like barbarians.

12 rogue/ 8 fighter nets you 7 feats

[Nu]

Swashbuckler gets advantage on athletic/acrobatic checks at level 13 and it could prove very valuable shoving around nasty opponents like barbarians.

12 rogue/ 8 fighter nets you 7 feats

Stopping rogue at 7 is still the best option, because you have to take 6 more levels of rogue just to get that benefit, and it's not even very useful unless you also have Shield Master (which you'll want to take at least 1 level of fighter first, to get proficiency with shields) or 5 levels of Fighter (for an extra attack). You certainly don't want to be wasting your Attack Action on a Shove when you only have one attack.

It's something you can aim for but imo takes too long to pay off. On the other hand, stopping rogue at level 7 and then immediately taking 3 levels of fighter gets you lots of benefits very quickly, and from there more fighter levels will continuously grant you more and more feats and dice. Going to level 11 Fighter gets you a 3rd attack, which is just as effectively valuable as advantage on Shoving (just Shove twice, if you really want to for some reason) but much more generally useful since you can use it to actually deal damage against something that you don't want to or unable to shove. And you pick up feats long the way rather than the large dry spell of "meh" to "that's decent I guess" or "equivalent to a feat, but I could just be a fighter and take a feat instead" features from rogue.

[djreynolds]

Stopping rogue at 7 is still the best option, because you have to take 6 more levels of rogue just to get that benefit, and it's not even very useful unless you also have Shield Master (which you'll want to take at least 1 level of fighter first, to get proficiency with shields) or 5 levels of Fighter (for an extra attack). You certainly don't want to be wasting your Attack Action on a Shove when you only have one attack.

It's something you can aim for but imo takes too long to pay off. On the other hand, stopping rogue at level 7 and then immediately taking 3 levels of fighter gets you lots of benefits very quickly, and from there more fighter levels will continuously grant you more and more feats and dice. Going to level 11 Fighter gets you a 3rd attack, which is just as effectively valuable as advantage on Shoving (just Shove twice, if you really want to for some reason) but much more generally useful since you can use it to actually deal damage against something that you don't want to or unable to shove. And you pick up feats long the way rather than the large dry spell of "meh" to "that's decent I guess" or "equivalent to a feat, but I could just be a fighter and take a feat instead" features from rogue.

But why take 7 levels of rogue for evasion, when shield master's evasion and your more than likely high dex score should solve that.
I guess it depends on the rogue you are making. Do you want sneak attack damage? Or 3 attacks?

IMO, a dex based melee rogue is better off with more rogue levels and precision, so that the sneak attack damage hurts. A strength based rogue is shield bashing and grappling people and even then they are using a finesse weapon so they can't use GWM or GWS or pole arm master, their damage is still based on that big SA damage. Now an archery based BM/SB is better off with 3 attacks and sharpshooter.

7 levels of rogue is 4d6, 13 level is 7d6 SA. As long as you land that one hit, you are disengaging now.

But all your points are very valid. I'm assuming a swashbuckler rogue is in combat with a rapier, maybe an off hand weapon, maybe a shield. 8 levels of fighter gives that extra attack and 3&7 BM maneuvers, and he can snag plenty of feats and max out that charisma and dex and grab resilient in something.

[Nu]

Wait a minute--the 13th level swashbuckler feature that grants you advantage on Athletics/Acrobatics checks uses a bonus action to do so. That severely decreases its value, as it can't be used with Shield Master and it locks you out of Cunning Action or any other use of your bonus action. It also means you'll have to wait until level 18 at least to combine it with Extra Attack in order to Shove + Attack.

That's not a worthy level 13 feature and it's certainly not worth putting levels in rogue for. About the only thing the class has going for it is the scaling Sneak Attack damage, which while good, I doubt outweighs the various benefits of taking more fighter levels in most cases. Remember, Extra Attacks give more chances to land that Sneak Attack, which helps make up for the fact that the Extra Attacks landing might not deal quite as much damage as the scaling Sneak Attack (though I doubt the difference is all that great).

[djreynolds]

Wait a minute--the 13th level swashbuckler feature that grants you advantage on Athletics/Acrobatics checks uses a bonus action to do so. That severely decreases its value, as it can't be used with Shield Master and it locks you out of Cunning Action or any other use of your bonus action. It also means you'll have to wait until level 18 at least to combine it with Extra Attack in order to Shove + Attack.

That's not a worthy level 13 feature and it's certainly not worth putting levels in rogue for. About the only thing the class has going for it is the scaling Sneak Attack damage, which while good, I doubt outweighs the various benefits of taking more fighter levels in most cases. Remember, Extra Attacks give more chances to land that Sneak Attack, which helps make up for the fact that the Extra Attacks landing might not deal quite as much damage as the scaling Sneak Attack (though I doubt the difference is all that great).

I like the idea that perhaps my swashbuckler could trip up a barbarian, but the bonus action is a detractor, no doubt and you cannot use your athletics checks disarm only your actual strike.

Perhaps just 3 levels of battlemaster coupled with precision to make sure sneak attacks land then. That could work.

But now that I read more about this advantage on athletics checks it seems more appropriate for one on one duels vs massive barbarians trying to grapple you or knock you down.

[NiklasWB]

Thank you all for your thoughts and comments.

After having reviewed all your posts as well as going through the Rogue and Fighter features I think the sweet spot for the character I had in mind would be:

A. 15 Battlemaster / 5 Swashbuckler
or possibly
B. 11 Battlemaster / 9 Swashbuckler.

Seeing as you can use your reaction and use riposte in combination with sneak attack, I think maximizing your superiority dice would be a good idea. Taking 5 levels of Swashbuckler should net you a decent sneak attack dice of 3d6 , Cunning Action and Uncanny Dodge. You also get the two first swashbuckler features in Fancy Footwork and Rackish Audacity. Taking 15 levels of Battlemaster give you the max amount of superiority dice, and moves them up to d10s. Spend one feat (which should be no problem with the ASI of fighter/rogue) on Martial Adept and you get another superiority die for a total of 7 dice when reaching level 15 battlemaster.You also get 3 attacks and action surge. This gives you a great many opportunities every short rest to use riposte with sneak attack (or any other maneuver you fancy). You also get 1 superiority die every time you enter combat and don't have any dice left.

Evasion at Rogue level 7 is certainly nice, but I don't feel like it is important enough to lose out on extra superiority dice and extra ASI. It also isn't a core part of the concept I had in mind to be able to dodge out of fire or aoe-spells. So going level 7 Rogue doesn't seem to be Worth it.

Level 9 Rogue is another matter however. The thing in the swashbuckler arsenal that would sting the most to lose out on is probably Panache at level 9. It's fun, it's a taunt, it's a charm. Great feature. So if you take Rogue to level 9 you gain Panache, Evasion, and extra sneak attack (5d6), but lose some of the fighter abilities and one superiority die. On paper it seems to be worth it, but maybe I'm missing something.

So the question is which one if these would be the best from a mechanical Point of view and would make the best sense out a RP Point of view.

[Nu]

If you don't feel that Evasion fits the character's concept, then I guess it might not be worth it. Personally I feel that Dexterity saving throws are common enough to go those extra two levels of rogue to grab that and an Sneak Attack die, but that is somewhat DM-dependent, so hey, whatever works for you in regards to that!

As for Panache, it really comes down to flavor. If you like the flavor enough to sink enough rogue levels towards the feature to grab it, then sure, whether or not it's worth it is entirely up to you. Mechanically, I think the feature is pretty damned weak: it uses your action, they need to hear and understand you, it might not work (but it should, given you can use your Expertise in Persuasion), and nothing stops them from moving away from you, unlike the similar paladin Oath of the Crown feature or the "Compelled Duel" spell. With that said, when it works, it's reasonably effective and flavorful, and out of combat it has some decent utility (though only about as much as low-level Charm spells). I doubt you'll be screwing yourself over badly by going for it.

[CNagy]

Panache is worth it's weight in gold when you have a DM who is willing to think through the ability. Creatures don't know that there is a distance limit so unless they are already attempting to flee, a hostile creature has no reason to back out. But even if the DM makes the case that this opponent has been Panache'd by other swashbucklers, forcing them to move out past 60' before coming back in pretty much limits what they can do in that particular turn.

You can use it against particularly dangerous foes already locked in combat with other party members, depending on timing, which gives those foes a bunch of bad options.

Out of combat, how awesome Panache is depends again on your DM. While it is a low-level charm, your character inflicts it naturally and (with expertise in Persuasion) almost effortlessly, on practically any non-hostile character you encounter and with none of the negative side effects of Charm magic. So for one thing, if you weren't before then you instantly become the party Face. Judicious use of Panache should result in better negotiations, better partnerships, and better overall goodwill to the party itself.

[Finieous]

Of the two, I prefer Battlemaster 11/Swashbuckler 9. Panache and the extra sneak attack dice every round (twice in some rounds) are better than the superiority dice improvement. You're maxing Dex, clearly, but I'd also shoot for Str 14, Shield Master, Expertise in Athletics. I'd also take Sentinel to optimize sneak attack, and it fits the theme of an opportunistic swashbuckling fighter. With standard array, I'd go variant human: S 14 D 16 C 14 I 8 W 10 Cha 12, Shield Master. I'd start with fighter for shield proficiency, still pick up +1 skill proficiency when I multiclass into rogue. My ASIs are +2 Dex, +2 Dex, Sentinel, +2 Con, +2 Con (or Resilient: Wis).