Nerfing the Witch to tier 3?

[gadren]

(Apologies to those who are tired of me making these types of posts so often lately.)

If I wanted to nerf the Pathfinder Witch class to tier 3, would giving spells per day as a Magus/Bard do the trick (and likewise removing the last 3 patron spells they get)? Or is that too much (or not enough)?

[Florian]

(Apologies to those who are tired of me making these types of posts so often lately.)

If I wanted to nerf the Pathfinder Witch class to tier 3, would giving spells per day as a Magus/Bard do the trick? Or is that too much (or not enough)?

Try using a hexcrafter magus with the witch spell list instead of the magus spell list. done.

[gadren]

Try using a hexcrafter magus with the witch spell list instead of the magus spell list. done.

AH! Missed that. Good call!

[Sacrieur]

If you want to do it fairly while keeping the same witch flavor then change the spell list to 2/3 caster (refer to the Magus spell progression) and then double the amount of hexes received: the witch receives a new hex every level rather than ever other level.

[gadren]

Also, I should have hexcrafters get a familiar and use it to store spells.


If you want to do it fairly while keeping the same witch flavor then change the spell list to 2/3 caster (refer to the Magus spell progression) and then double the amount of hexes received: the witch receives a new hex every level rather than ever other level.

I feel like giving them that many hexes would boost their tier above 3?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Another options that often works: trim the spell list down dramatically and leave it with a tight thematic focus, like 3.5's Beguiler and Dread Necromancer. Otherwise yeah, demoting everyone to a 6th level spell progression works just fine.

[Sacrieur]

Also, I should have hexcrafters get a familiar and use it to store spells.

I feel like giving them that many hexes would boost their tier above 3?

No, because that many hexes expands versatility but in limited ways. I understand your concern, however.

It's spells of 7th+ level that start breaking the game and are necessary for entry into tier 2. Remember that a tier 2 class is just as powerful as a tier 1 class, but not in as many ways.

[Psyren]

It won't boost their tier but 20 hexes does feel excessive. Instead, I'd take the Magus' bonus feats class feature and instead of letting them take combat feats with it, instead they can take hex-related feats with it like Extra Hex or Accursed Hex. That way, if the player feels his hexes are subpar he can put a few more resources there, or if he feels his hexes are fine he can boost his spellcasting via metamagic instead. If he's happy with both he can instead go for item creation.

[Sacrieur]

It won't boost their tier but 20 hexes does feel excessive. Instead, I'd take the Magus' bonus feats class feature and instead of letting them take combat feats with it, instead they can take hex-related feats with it like Extra Hex or Accursed Hex. That way, if the player feels his hexes are subpar he can put a few more resources there, or if he feels his hexes are fine he can boost his spellcasting via metamagic instead. If he's happy with both he can instead go for item creation.

This sounds much better.

[The Vagabond]

You know, I've always wondered: What about just removing the spells above level 6, while keeping the length of time, and just ban a bunch of Metamagic feats?

[Kurald Galain]

I feel like giving them that many hexes would boost their tier above 3?

No, because there aren't that many hexes worth taking (other than for flavor). Frankly doubling a witch's amount of hexes is a bit silly but won't affect their power much, because they could already get all the good hexes with their normal progression.

[Psyren]

This sounds much better.

My other idea would be to replace spell combat and spellstrike with something more caster-y, since this is meant to be a pure caster modification rather than a gish like the magus is. Maybe replace them the Mesmerist's Hypnotic Stare and Painful Stare instead, both fluffed as an enhanced form of evil eye? Or maybe give them the Cauldron hex for free and allow it to not just brew potions, but also create alchemical items like an alchemist's lab, along with the bonus on craft (alchemy) checks that the alchemist gets.


You know, I've always wondered: What about just removing the spells above level 6, while keeping the length of time, and just ban a bunch of Metamagic feats?

Isn't that what the OP is doing? Unless by "keep the length of time" you mean" stick with the original Witch progression speed and stop at 6" rather than "switch to magus/bard progression."

[Spore]

If you want to do it fairly while keeping the same witch flavor then change the spell list to 2/3 caster (refer to the Magus spell progression) and then double the amount of hexes received: the witch receives a new hex every level rather than ever other level.

Not really the same flavor. Witches are casters by heart. Could you imagine the evil witch in Hänsel and Gretel wielding a longsword, AoOing Hänsel who tries to shove her into the oven, using spellcombat with inflict moderate wounds slashing his hand off and opening wounds all over poor Hänsel that he bleeds to death scarring Gretel for the rest of her short life? I mean it's badass, but it is not an iconic Witch.


I feel Witches should loose their spell list entirely. Now hear me out on that. Most witches are devious schemers. They rarely cast spells directly. They get their patron spells as a pool of 3+ Int Mod/day. Casting one spell pulls from that pool. Other than that witches are counted as having their spell list for the purpose of creating wondrous items. Most iconic witches use poisoned apples, enchanted spindles etc. They should maybe even get Craft Wondrous Items.

This does four things. Their power is pushed down significantly. The hex choices matter more. And the patron choices matter more and the overall weak patron spell list starts to shine in another light. And the witch can switch their patrons, offering plot hooks.

[Vhaidara]

Not really the same flavor. Witches are casters by heart. Could you imagine the evil witch in Hänsel and Gretel wielding a longsword, AoOing Hänsel who tries to shove her into the oven, using spellcombat with inflict moderate wounds slashing his hand off and opening wounds all over poor Hänsel that he bleeds to death scarring Gretel for the rest of her short life? I mean it's badass, but it is not an iconic Witch.

Haven't read the original, but I could totally see that being in Brother's Grimm.

[Novawurmson]

Isn't that what the OP is doing? Unless by "keep the length of time" you mean" stick with the original Witch progression speed and stop at 6" rather than "switch to magus/bard progression."

I think the latter is what The Vagabond is getting at. That's actually what I plan on doing with full casters the next time I have a player who actually wants to play one.

[stanprollyright]

You know, I've always wondered: What about just removing the spells above level 6, while keeping the length of time, and just ban a bunch of Metamagic feats?

I've always toyed with the idea of making spell lists stop progressing after 6 (so that there are no* 7th-9th level spells anymore) but letting casters keep their 7th-9th level spell slots as written for metamagic.

*EDIT: Potential exceptions for Mass and Greater versions of lower level spells.

[Spore]

I've always toyed with the idea of making spell lists stop progressing after 6 (so that there are no* 7th-9th level spells anymore) but letting casters keep their 7th-9th level spell slots as written for metamagic.

*EDIT: Potential exceptions for Mass and Greater versions of lower level spells.

I'd allow 7-9th level spell via Ritual Magic. If you have someone who leads the circle, is able to cast 6th level spells AND has the appropriate Spellcraft check in order to know the spell in question, it's possible.

[Snowbluff]

Is witch even T1? What kind of game changers do they have?


You know, I've always wondered: What about just removing the spells above level 6, while keeping the length of time, and just ban a bunch of Metamagic feats?
No, you would mess up the save DC scaling.

I've always toyed with the idea of making spell lists stop progressing after 6 (so that there are no* 7th-9th level spells anymore) but letting casters keep their 7th-9th level spell slots as written for metamagic.

*EDIT: Potential exceptions for Mass and Greater versions of lower level spells.
Same problem with the DCs, but this is better.

I'd allow 7-9th level spell via Ritual Magic. If you have someone who leads the circle, is able to cast 6th level spells AND has the appropriate Spellcraft check in order to know the spell in question, it's possible.

Doesn't that not really help, then? Most of the strongest 7-9 spells are usable out of combat.

[Psyren]

Is witch even T1? What kind of game changers do they have?

Not counting patron spells, they get generally useful things like SM1-9, Astral Projection, Genesis, Maze, Dominate Monster, Dust Form, and at lower levels they get many of the good wizard control spells (see below). They can also sidestep/solve a campaign with things like Discern Location, Vision, Divination/Contact Other Plane, (Greater) Teleport/Plane Shift etc. if they are not stopped by the GM. One of their cooler tricks in my mind is the ability to possess nearly any creature via Magic Jar or (Greater) Share Skin, keeping their mental abilities (including their hexes) while in this form; they can even possess objects. With lucky rolls you could end up riding around inside the Tarrasque or something. They can wipe out armies/towns with Storm of Vengeance, Cursed Earth or even just a nastier application of Control Weather.

Patron Spells then give them access to more traditional ubers like Gate, Time Stop, Shapechange, Shades etc. There is even a patron that grants Miracle.

One nice thing about them is that they also gain some useful cleric spells like cures, Death Ward, Resurrection, Regenerate and Heal, in case your party doesn't have one; a witch is a good choice for a very small party's primary caster for this reason. They also get Reincarnate in case early-game rez is needed. They can do this while continuing to fill the normal arcane controller role (glitterdust, stinking cloud, solid fog, black tentacles, enervation, web etc.)

If all that wasn't enough, late game they get a grand hex that gives them a 18 HD ghost cohort. So you can effectively get a nigh-unkillable level 18 wizard as a class feature.

They aren't as high T1 as the others but I would put their list a bit above druid as it has more utility (better control spells and divinations.)

[Snowbluff]

*spell information*
They aren't as high T1 as the others but I would put their list a bit above druid as it has more utility (better control spells and divinations.)

Okay, thanks for the summary. :smallsmile:

[stanprollyright]

Is witch even T1? What kind of game changers do they have?

Most of the Cleric/Wizard ones, depending on your Patron.


Same problem with the DCs, but this is better.

I had thought of that. If I ever use it I'll give out Heighten Spell for free or houserule that metamagic increases DC.

[Snowbluff]

I had thought of that. If I ever use it I'll give out Heighten Spell for free or houserule that metamagic increases DC.

I prefer 5e's solution of tying it to level/HD. 10+1/2 HD + casting modifier would fix it much better.

[gadren]

If all that wasn't enough, late game they get a grand hex that gives them a 18 HD ghost cohort. So you can effectively get a nigh-unkillable level 18 wizard as a class feature.


So, a magus with the hexcrafter archetype can summon an 18th level ghost wizard at level 18? Does that mean a hexcrafter magus effectively jumps up to tier 1 at that point (since they are now controlling a tier 1 character)?


Not really the same flavor. Witches are casters by heart. Could you imagine the evil witch in Hänsel and Gretel wielding a longsword, AoOing Hänsel who tries to shove her into the oven, using spellcombat with inflict moderate wounds slashing his hand off and opening wounds all over poor Hänsel that he bleeds to death scarring Gretel for the rest of her short life? I mean it's badass, but it is not an iconic Witch.

It's worth noting that hexcraft and staff magus are compatible archetypes.

[Psyren]

I prefer 5e's solution of tying it to level/HD. 10+1/2 HD + casting modifier would fix it much better.

Yeah but that works in 5e because you need higher slots to make the spells scale at all. If you did that in D&D/PF, you would have 15d6 fireballs with 18+mod DC coming out of a 3rd level slot because spells scale with CL here.


So, a magus with the hexcrafter archetype can summon an 18th level ghost wizard at level 18? Does that mean a hexcrafter magus effectively jumps up to tier 1 at that point (since they are now controlling a tier 1 character)?

Eh, this is kinda akin to the "Truenamer/Healer gets Gate!" argument. General consensus seems to be that if you aren't T1 before level 18-20 then you don't get bumped up there just because you get something broken that late, because the game is almost over.


It's worth noting that hexcraft and staff magus are compatible archetypes.

They do still get Spell Combat/Spellstrike though, so I can see the conundrum. If you want a 2/3 caster that doesn't feel like a gish then these two abilities become vestigial.

Similarly, if you're going for a caster magus, you're unlikely to use Quarterstaff Master, Quarterstaff Defense or Staff Weapon.

[Vhaidara]

Yeah but that works in 5e because you need higher slots to make the spells scale at all. If you did that in D&D/PF, you would have 15d6 fireballs with 18+mod DC coming out of a 3rd level slot because spells scale with CL here.

To be fair, that's hardly the most broken example.Might actually make blasting passable :smalltongue:

[stanprollyright]

I prefer 5e's solution of tying it to level/HD. 10+1/2 HD + casting modifier would fix it much better.

I agree that DCs don't scale well enough, but that's more of an overhaul than a quick fix. It has its own far-reaching balance/strategy implications across the whole game. I was just talking about ways to nerf high level casters by getting rid of game-breakers while leaving all the fun/iconic stuff intact.

[Snowbluff]

Yeah but that works in 5e because you need higher slots to make the spells scale at all. If you did that in D&D/PF, you would have 15d6 fireballs with 18+mod DC coming out of a 3rd level slot because spells scale with CL here.
That's totally fine. It would also help a lot of lower level spells that become totally useless because they have saves.


I agree that DCs don't scale well enough, but that's more of an overhaul than a quick fix. It has its own far-reaching balance/strategy implications across the whole game. I was just talking about ways to nerf high level casters by getting rid of game-breakers while leaving all the fun/iconic stuff intact.

No, it doesn't. That's how the save of every other ability works. Not to mention it's in line with the assumption of the save progressives, with it scalling below the 12 bonus of the good saves, but above the 6 of the bad saves.

[Psyren]

To be fair, that's hardly the most broken example.Might actually make blasting passable :smalltongue:

It's not the blasting itself that's the problem with that, it's the ripple effect it would have elsewhere. If I can pull level-appropriate blasts out of my lower level slots, I never need to put any in my higher ones. That effectively gives me more high level slots for the really powerful stuff, like Planar Bindings or Greater Teleports, because I know that in the rare instance that blasting is my best option I'll have solid ones available from my lowest-level slots that I'm never going to run out of anyway. It's basically free Heighten on every low blasting spell and then I have the ability to Empower/Maximize/Widen/Intensify/whatever else on top of that.

[stanprollyright]

That's totally fine. It would also help a lot of lower level spells that become totally useless because they have saves.

No, it doesn't. That's how the save of every other ability works. Not to mention it's in line with the assumption of the save progressives, with it scalling below the 12 bonus of the good saves, but above the 6 of the bad saves.

It changes the basic strategy of the game though by making DC spells (especially Save-or-Sucks) more attractive options, as well as low-level spells like Charm Person.

I certainly like the idea in general, though. In a game where casters were less overpowered compared to their mundane brethren that is how I would want spells to work.

[Snowbluff]

It changes the basic strategy of the game though by making DC spells (especially Save-or-Sucks) more attractive options, as well as low-level spells like Charm Person.

I certainly like the idea in general, though. In a game where casters were less overpowered compared to their mundane brethren that is how I would want spells to work.

Well you're labyrinth under a false assumption. The calculation I gave is the baseline. It makes them more attractive by making them maintain a modicum of efficacy. Also consider that lower level spells, the ones most affected, are held to certain defects and stipulations that higher ones are not. Read Charm Person, then read Dominated person. Obviously one is significantly stronger than the other, so it's fine that you can get a little more mileage out of the weaker one by making its DC scale.

Second, SoS isn't why casters are overpowered. It's the insane ability to offload all sorts of work into simple options and to change the game in substantial ways with their class features, like teleporting, planar binding, simulacrum, planar travel, wishes, etc. Being good at fighting is not enough to get you into the T1 T2 game changer range. Just about any class can stab something to death, and death is the best kind of suck.

[stanprollyright]

Well you're labyrinth under a false assumption. The calculation I gave is the baseline. It makes them more attractive by making them maintain a modicum of efficacy. Also consider that lower level spells, the ones most affected, are held to certain defects and stipulations that higher ones are not. Read Charm Person, then read Dominated person. Obviously one is significantly stronger than the other, so it's fine that you can get a little more mileage out of the weaker one by making its DC scale.

This is why I like the idea in general.


Second, SoS isn't why casters are overpowered. It's the insane ability to offload all sorts of work into simple options and to change the game in substantial ways with their class features, like teleporting, planar binding, simulacrum, planar travel, wishes, etc. Being good at fighting is not enough to get you into the T1 T2 game changer range. Just about any class can stab something to death, and death is the best kind of suck.

I never said SoS was overpowered. I just don't want to give casters more good options.

[Honest Tiefling]

Not really the same flavor. Witches are casters by heart. Could you imagine the evil witch in Hänsel and Gretel wielding a longsword, AoOing Hänsel who tries to shove her into the oven, using spellcombat with inflict moderate wounds slashing his hand off and opening wounds all over poor Hänsel that he bleeds to death scarring Gretel for the rest of her short life?

Yes. I did enjoy the hilariously awful Hansel and Gretel movie. But I get your meaning.

I will also chime in, because depending on the books allowed, you can actually run out of hexes that are useful/thematic for a witch in my opinion. The ones that are good are good enough to make the ability good.

What about taking the Shaman class and axing the spells? They have more then just hexes, and have a better chassis. They still seem pretty castery to me, through I have not had the opportunity to play one.

It also brings up the question of what the doodly-diddly is a witch in your setting? Witches seem to be based off of, well, witches from European tradition, which are associated with the devil and other demon stuff. If your world has a particular set, theme or species of patrons (Such as the ones provided for warlocks), that might be a place to start.