[Feats] And his words were as honey...

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Manipulative
You strategically plan every word and say just the right thing.
Prerequisites: Int 13
Benefit: You use your intelligence modifier in place of charisma for charisma-based skill checks. All charisma-based skill ranks cost 1 skill point for you to purchase, even if the skill is cross-class for you. The maximum number of ranks you can purchase in a cross-class skill remains the same.

-=-=-=-=-

Golden Tongue
You possess great wit as well as charm.
Prerequisites: Int 15, Manipulative
Benefit: You add your intelligence modifier and charisma modifier to charisma-based skill checks.

[Glaivemaster]

Nice ideas. One small thing: aren't wit and quick thinking more Wisdom-based? I always got that impression myself. Quite minor, I just think Wisdom fits better than Intelligence for this sort of thing

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Err, why would wit and quick thinking be wisdom?

[Green Bean]

Would these feats be somewhat inspired by this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45725) thread?

[Glaivemaster]

Maybe it comes from playing too much WoD, where the mental stats are Intelligence and Wit, as opposed to Wisdom.

The fact that wit is applied to spot etc. the ability to notice things, and mentally react quickly. Also, that way, it provides a nice mirror to Dexterity, as the physical aspect of acting quickly (once again, following World of Darkness' splitting of abilities into 'power' 'finesse' and 'resistance')

Like I said, maybe it's a WoD thing, it just feels to me that Wisdom is the mental Dexterity, and Intelligence is the mental Strength

Anyway, that's just a personal feeling. If you feel Intelligence fits best, use Intelligence

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Would these feats be somewhat inspired by this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45725) thread?
Maybe :smallamused:



The fact that wit is applied to spot etc. the ability to notice things, and mentally react quickly. Also, that way, it provides a nice mirror to Dexterity, as the physical aspect of acting quickly (once again, following World of Darkness' splitting of abilities into 'power' 'finesse' and 'resistance')
Actually, that'd also be intelligence. There is another feat that lets you use your intelligence modifier for reflex saves because you think really fast.

[Glaivemaster]

Actually, that'd also be intelligence. There is another feat that lets you use your intelligence modifier for reflex saves because you think really fast.

Eh, point. Oh well, ignore me then. I'm trying to mix RPGs :smalltongue:

[Hazkali]

Eh, point. Oh well, ignore me then. I'm trying to mix RPGs :smalltongue:

Is that like mixing your drinks? :smallyuk:

I like these feats, and I might use them as the basis for a PrC I have had lurking in the back of my mind for a while (The Aristomancer: Mage-Nobles).

[Kevka Palazzo]

Eh, point. Oh well, ignore me then. I'm trying to mix RPGs :smalltongue:

Mmmm....True20... :smallbiggrin:

[Closet_Skeleton]

Is that like mixing your drinks? :smallyuk:

I like these feats, and I might use them as the basis for a PrC I have had lurking in the back of my mind for a while (The Aristomancer: Mage-Nobles).

No no no. An aristomancer would be a diplomat or a mystical geniologist.

I made a Magiocrat (one who rules through magic) NPC class once. It was dumb because it was an NPC class that was more powerful than the PC classes.

[Khoran]

And thus, Charisma was never needed again (Except by Sorcs and Bards)

[Lysander]

Yeah, this seems a little bit too powerful. It would allow a wizard with a negative charisma modifier to still win friends over through sheer intellect. I would suggest limiting its scope.

[TheOOB]

Yeah, this seems a little bit too powerful. It would allow a wizard with a negative charisma modifier to still win friends over through sheer intellect. I would suggest limiting its scope.

I fail to see how giving a wizard the ability to spend a feat (which are extreamly valuable to them) and skill points(which they get few of) to give them some social graces is overpowering especially when they could just cast charm person or suggestion.

A quick note, I find the Int prerequisites a little redundant, unless you have a good int you dont take these feats, so requiring x int seems pointless.

[ZeroNumerous]

Theres the same problem with Two-Weapon Fighting, TheOOB. But it's still a prereq none the less.

[Rincewind]

Yeah, this seems a little bit too powerful. It would allow a wizard with a negative charisma modifier to still win friends over through sheer intellect. I would suggest limiting its scope.

Wizards need friends too... :frown:

[TwistedCable]

I'd probably change the Int requirment for manipulative to Chm, as it's kind of redundant and it seems (at least to me) to make sense - they'd have to be reasonably charismatic to express their "brilliantly planned words of maniuplation". Seems to balance better too.

[TheOOB]

I'd probably change the Int requirment for manipulative to Chm, as it's kind of redundant and it seems (at least to me) to make sense - they'd have to be reasonably charismatic to express their "brilliantly planned words of maniuplation". Seems to balance better too.

The feats are allready balanced, a bonus to skills that are superceeded by low level spells is not overpowered. Besides, a high Cha requirement eliminates the entire point of this feat.

This feat is tailor made for low Cha types who still manage to get their way. Imagine Jafar from Disneys Alladin, no one liked him, yet he always managed to get his way through well planned words and a snake tongue.

[Demented]

Manipulative is neat, but Golden Tongue is...counter-productive if you have low CHA. Of course that wouldn't matter much since nobody would take it in that case anyway... But it would be so much more stylish with a 13 CHA requisite on it.

On the other hand, consider the case of someone with 17 CHA and 15 INT.
He wants Golden Tongue because he has feats to burn and a love of charisma-based skills.
But first he'd need to get Manipulative, which would penalize his charisma-based skills!

What to do, what to do....

[Tola]

Perhaps adding a 'may' in Manipulative would ease the issue? (You may use your intelligence modifier in place of charisma for charisma-based skill checks.")

Not that it matters- the low-cha types will stop with Manipulative, those with both will take both; a very slight weakening now(Your example is +2 vs +3. Not much of a loss, and when the Feat comes, it becomes +5) for greater benefits along the line.

[Sutremaine]

Benefit: You use your intelligence modifier in place of charisma for charisma-based skill checks. All charisma-based skill ranks cost 1 skill point for you to purchase, even if the skill is cross-class for you. The maximum number of ranks you can purchase in a cross-class skill remains the same.
Nice, very nice, but I'm not too sure about acquiring all the Cha skills as 'general skills'*. With feats at a premium there's probably always something else that's higher on the to-take list, but the stat that's being replaced makes the feat a very good deal. Charisma has no specific mechanical use except for characters with abilities that rely on it, and with the exception of UMD all the Charisma skills can be left to the party faces.

*I wish D&D would recognise skills bought 1:1 but which max out at half ranks.


Wizards need friends too.
I thought they got one as a class feature? :smallbiggrin:

[Jack Mann]

Wizards need friends too... :frown:

No, they need minions.

[Khoran]

The feats are allready balanced, a bonus to skills that are superceeded by low level spells is not overpowered. Besides, a high Cha requirement eliminates the entire point of this feat.

This feat is tailor made for low Cha types who still manage to get their way. Imagine Jafar from Disneys Alladin, no one liked him, yet he always managed to get his way through well planned words and a snake tongue.

It's arguable that it's balanced. For a Wizard, it removes the need for Charisma completly and makes them even more SAD. Int now gives a Wizard:
Bonus Spells
Increaced DC
Skill Points
Bonuses to Charisma Based Skills
And Charisma gives a Wizard:
...

That's right. Nothing. You could now have Cha 1 and no one would care, since a Wizard's one use for Charisma is gone. And lets not forget that this skill also gives Wizards more class skills then they would normally have.

You make mention of Jafar, but I think in addition to using magic to manipulate people, he probobly just has ranks is Social Skills so he would know how to manipulate people. Just because you don't have good charisma, dosn't mean that you can't use them. I think giving Int as a bonus is just not balanced, personally.

Here is what I'd say, personally.
Manipulative:
You strategically plan every word and say just the right thing.
Prerequisites: Int 13
Benefit: You use your intelligence modifier in place of charisma for charisma-based skill checks. All charisma-based skill ranks cost 1 skill point for you to purchase, even if the skill is cross-class for you. The maximum number of ranks you can purchase in a cross-class skill remains the same.

Then, if you really have incist on keeping Int to Cha based skills (Something I think is a bad idea), then make Golden Tounge the following:
Golden Tongue:
You possess great wit as well as charm.
Prerequisites: Int 15, Manipulative
Benefit: You add your intelligence modifier and charisma modifier to charisma-based skill checks.

This is all my opinion on the matter.

===

No, they need minions.

Silly poster, minions come from Leadership.

[Jack Mann]

No, good minions come from proper use of dominate monster.

And wizards already are safe to ignore charisma. They don't need to talk to people. They can charm them as needed, or have a bard do it.

This isn't a good feat for wizards. They can purchase ranks in social skills, but the max rank cap is still the same, so they're never going to be any good at it. They have better things to do with their feats than be mediocre.

No, the class that actually benefits from this are rogues, who can then focus on dexterity and intelligence.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Here is what I'd say, personally.
Manipulative:
You strategically plan every word and say just the right thing.
Prerequisites: Int 13
Benefit: You use your intelligence modifier in place of charisma for charisma-based skill checks. All charisma-based skill ranks cost 1 skill point for you to purchase, even if the skill is cross-class for you. The maximum number of ranks you can purchase in a cross-class skill remains the same.
Need to take a look at the Able Learner (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Able_Learner,RD) feat, Khoran. It lets you buy every single skill in creation for only 1 point.

I also don't think my feats can contend with Nymph's Kiss (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Nymph~s_Kiss,BE) as well.

[Khoran]

Need to take a look at the Able Learner (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Able_Learner,RD) feat, Khoran. It lets you buy every single skill in creation for only 1 point.

I also don't think my feats can contend with Nymph's Kiss (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Nymph~s_Kiss,BE) as well.

I'm aware of Able Learner. However, the Prerequisties are Human or Doppelganger only and can only be taken at character creation. So, this feat would be less generally useful, but open to more people and could be taken after character creation.

And as for Nymph's Kiss, that is a pretty powerful feat, mainly because youu can get up to 20 extra Skill points if taken at first level but I still dosn't rub me the wrong way as much as Manipulative does. Both are pretty powerful, and I feel that both could be too powerful (if taken as early as possible for Kiss). However, yours dose not have the same draw back of Nymph's Kiss of having to be taken earlier, since that means it would take longer to get to the Prestige Class you want, and if you put the feat aside until later, it wouldn't be as powerful. With Manipulative, you can go back and still get the full benefit like there was no problem.

[Matthew]

There is another feat that lets you use your intelligence modifier for reflex saves because you think really fast.

Is that a Feat you have Homebrewed or an Official Feat? Sounds like a good idea to me, regardless.

[MeklorIlavator]

Its in the Complete Adventuer, so its official.

[Matthew]

Does anybody know what it's called? I can't believe I have never heard of this before, especially considering the number of times I have proposed using Intelligence and Dexterity for Reflex, Strength and Constitution for Fortitude and Wisdom and Charisma for Willpower.

[Edit] Found it, Insightful Reflexes. Can't believe I missed it. Does anybody know if there are similar Feats for the combinations above mentioned?

[Peregrine]

Okay, I'll say it. I don't like them, purely for flavour reasons. If you have Cha 8 (or less...), it doesn't matter how smart you are, you just don't have that knack for presenting things well. You might know what to say, but you don't know how to say it.

Sure, a smart person can learn to do this -- they can probably learn better than a less intelligent person. But this is already adequately represented by skill points, and by bonus skill points from Int. In this vein, Khoran's edited Manipulative is good, since it just enhances a smart person's ability to buy Cha-based skills.

(Also, should a "Manipulative" person get Int to Perform? Not just vocal performances, but playing the lute or the pipes...)


This feat is tailor made for low Cha types who still manage to get their way. Imagine Jafar from Disneys Alladin, no one liked him, yet he always managed to get his way through well planned words and a snake tongue.

Charisma doesn't necessarily make you liked, it just gives you presence and persuasiveness. Jafar was charismatic, he just didn't particularly try to be likeable.

Oh, and early in the thread, people were discussing the roles of the mental stats, with some reference to the physical stats... I think the best match-up I've seen is Int to Dex, Cha to Str, Wis to Con.

[Matthew]

Oh, and early in the thread, people were discussing the roles of the mental stats, with some reference to the physical stats... I think the best match-up I've seen is Int to Dex, Cha to Str, Wis to Con.
I don't know, I was never really sold on that Defensive/Offensive idea. I'd match up Wisdom with Charisma and Strength with Constitution when it comes to Saving Throws.

[MMad]

I have a problem with these feats, mainly based on psychology. If a person has terribly low charisma, e.g. is downright ugly and normally incapable of speaking strongly or eloquently, it may not matter how brilliant or sensible the words coming out of their mouth is - people may still ignore them purely based on their initial impression of the character. People very often choose to comfortably ignore sensible things said by people they dislike. If you're too uncharismatic, people wouldn't even listen to your clever words. As such, a character with abysmal charisma and these feats might be able to convince a king during a sombre council session, but should imo be unable to talk his way past a couple of Orc bouncers outside a tavern.

I think it would be sensible if these feats only work once you've got someone's full attention and they're really listening to your arguments, and that the bonuses would never help you get the attention to someone who cares nothing for you or what you want to say.

Not sure this is an argument that is very relevant in the context of D&D, even if anyone agrees with me, though.

[celtois]

if you read complete scoundrel mountebank or (something like that) its ability
at first level is to add int and cha to bluff only this seems to powerful