My Bloody Valentine, The Jesus and Mary Chain, and Shoegaze...

[Stagger Lee]

While the 80s Shoegazing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoegaze) genre can be kind of pretentious, My Bloody Valentine's "Loveless" is one of the best albums I've ever heard. Hendrix couldn't match that guitar. Early JAMC is much better then post-Darklands, but most of it is still good. Anyone else like those bands?

[Amotis]

Here here!

I don't get how they're pretentious though. :smallconfused: There was always an air or feel of insecurity (whether faked or not) with shoegazers.

Jesus and the Mary Chain ain't that shogazing. More rock and roll then anything, me thinks. And I think they rocked whenever they wanted too in whatever time period. See, Jesus and the Mary Chain, they can be called arrogant pricks. But really, who cares? They rock.

But personally, I think Loveless is/was/will be the height of shoegazeing as a genre and it's time we moved on. Good ****, of course, and I see endless potential with dream pop (which walks the line, treading on more of the less-harsh more listen-able chorus, verse, etc side) but with shoegazing...well the sound really is pretty definitively 90's (shoegazing is 1990's pretty much, the 80's were it's influences, softcore monsters, dream pop, galaxie, luna, cocteau twins, etc and it came into genre power later) and it's pretty much a dead genre.

That being said; Fennesz Fennesz Fennesz. I really like his work. I think they're calling it post-shoegaze today. Whatever, it's post-rocky, electronica, comtep-classical, goodness. Endless Summer is forever recommended by me.

[Stagger Lee]

Faked insecurity is pretty pretentious.
Also. I think dream pop lost its chance when the British press decided that The Stone Roses were the second coming, and marketed them for two years, ignoring everything else, including dream pop. Kind of like the way The Fall were ignored for about 3 years.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Music?

What was that supposed to do again?

I find these threads annoying when I haven't heard of the bands.

Not that I was alive for more than a year of the 80s (and that's only if you count 1990 as being the 10th year of the 80s).

I'd check this stuff out if I had the willingness to spend money.

[Stagger Lee]

Get it from a library. Then rip it to your computer. Fair use, and being nerdy just makes you more indie.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Get it from a library. Then rip it to your computer. Fair use, and being nerdy just makes you more indie.

Why would I want to be Indie? I don't even have a band.

[Stagger Lee]

It was a joke.

[Amotis]

What's so pretentious about noise muddled pop melodies and sustained low mixed vocals? Pedals on the floor? A man dancing naked to moonlight? Seriously, I mean what? It's bloody music. Pretty removed the most genres too.

Dream pop is kissing cousins with the shoegazing movement. Same with slowcore. One just flows into the other which influences the other which makes an offshoot band of the other. 4AD. I mean watch Dean Wareham. Slowcore to shoegaze to dream pop. Or Slowdrive. Or like...any of those major shoe/slow/dream bands. It really just runs together. So I mean it's gotten the chance to explore. Whereas the shozegazing we knew from Loveless is gone, dream pop/slowcore I see still and in a lot more bands past and present.

MBV is also suppose to make a new album. Huh.

I also want to stress how much the Cocteau Twins rock. I remember seeing bootlegs of her being backed by three guitarists, jazzmaster, a wall of pedals, and just doing a Janis Joplin thing landing the audience flat. In tongues too.

[Stagger Lee]

MBV is also suppose to make a new album. Huh.


Yeeeeaaaah, Watchmen movie, The Sandman movie, Duke Nukem Forever, Starcraft: Ghost. To sum it up, development hell.

[FdL]

I cannot be partial when speaking of this genre because I'm a fan. I've paid lots of money for a bootleg of a MbV show where you can barely hear the vocals.

I don't know if the genre is dead. It certainly reached its high point too soon with Loveless, but I don't think there's nothing new to be done in that style. What happens is that the newer bands are just followers of the aesthetic and imitators. There's some new bands that are supposed to be good like M83, Pluramon, Sereena-Maneesh (and Mahogany, I think). Some do it with guitars and effects, some with more synths, but none quite like MbV.

Which is only natural, because they are imitating the music of an original artist with a unique vision, and turning it into a genre (the same was done in its day, this is some sort of revival, which waters it down even more).

I second Amotis' praise of the Cocteau Twins. It's clear that they are among the fathers of the genre, even if they are not exactly part of it. The whole 4AD aesthetic was important for the shoegazer movement.

Then with the JAMC, many people relate them to the genre, and it's ok, but it was mostly for the sound of their 1st album, which is so abrasively distorted that has somekind of a fluffy texture, something that MbV also achieved in their way. Also, don't forget that MbV themselves had a lot of influence of JAMC in their songwriting and sound, which probably led them into the sonic experimentation that brought them to their famous 2 albums. Their really early stuff is not very creative, just generic post C-86 indie, and the stuff in the middle is more listenable (check out the Ecstasy and Wine "LP") and shows an intention of experimentation, once they had set their feet firmly in the pseudo JAMC jangly/noise pop-song style.

Then there were many bands worth checking out in the early 90's. My favorite is Lush, if you like the genre you should check them out. Their second album (their first proper one) "Spooky" sounds great, very cloudy/steamy not unlike the Cocteaus, thanks to Robin Guthrie who IIRC produced it. The other stuff is good too, though they slowly moved to a more song-focused style. The '94 album "Split" is really really good too, more varied but still experimental and full of interesting textures and atmosphere. There's one song called "Invisible man" that has a guitar part that sounds like glass. Their last record was more straightforward sounding, but it's still excellent IMHO.

I've listened to other related things, like Slowdive, Medicine, Curve, Ride (Nowhere is kinda good, but I think they didn't always make that kind of record) etc, and 4AD stuff too. There's good things and mediocre things, like in any genre.

Edit: What really is coming from the MbV camp is some kind of multi disc compilation with b-sides and DVDs and stuff.

[Amotis]

I think shoegazing kinda developed a melody and went into post rock or developed a new instrument and went ambiance/electronica or usually just a mix of it all. I mean, I hear those muffled noise pop songs today and I guess that's shoegazer but I hear it as just a rehashed Loveless most of the time.

[ZombieRockStar]

Faked insecurity is pretty pretentious.

This is more of a casual observation than anything, so no offense because I can sort of see what you mean, but I'm starting to think that "pretentious" is becoming like "emo": a pejorative term thrown around without anyone having a really solid idea of what it means...beyond "too intelligent" (I mean, really). So maybe it shouldn't be considered a legitimate criticism...

On topic: My personal continued education in all things indie has only started pushing me into shoegaze, coming at it from slowcore. I've listened to more than a few MBV songs and I love them, so Loveless is probably going to be my next music purchase once I allow myself to spend money again...*mutters about not having quite enough money yet for the $2000 guitar*

[FdL]

I guess I like my music with some pretentions. Just making more of the same doesn't cut it for me.

Shoegazer was a style that had more impact in its influence than as a genre, I guess. Everyone mainstream has something of it, after all these years, from U2 to Garbage to Coldplay. And countless other evolutions in indie and more experimental trends, of course.

I guess it's a phase. When I started playing guitar it was all about distortion and layers of effects, heavily influenced by this genre. Then I outgrew it and focused on the songs. My guess is the same happened to many of these artists, they outgrew it and went somewhere else.

[Amotis]

Shoegazer was a style that had more impact in its influence than as a genre, I guess.

Exactly. I think as a genre it was pretty specific. A specific sound and song/album type.

[bosssmiley]

While the 80s Shoegazing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoegaze) genre can be kind of pretentious, My Bloody Valentine's "Loveless" is one of the best albums I've ever heard. Hendrix couldn't match that guitar. Early JAMC is much better then post-Darklands, but most of it is still good. Anyone else like those bands?


Hendrix couldn't match that guitar.

Hendrix couldn't match that guitar.

Hendrix couldn't match that guitar.

OP failed hard right there. Opinion on music (indie or otherwise) counts for <0 after expressing the above opinion. :smallyuk:
Harsh? Perhaps. But you know in your heart I'm right.

Declaration of personal interest: bosssmiley was a shoegazing indie kid, and is a fan of both proper indie music ("My Bloody whonow?") and of Jimi "does not date, will never truly die" Hendrix.

[Stagger Lee]

OP failed hard right there. Opinion on music (indie or otherwise) counts for <0 after expressing the above opinion. :smallyuk:
Harsh? Perhaps. But you know in your heart I'm right.

Declaration of personal interest: bosssmiley was a shoegazing indie kid, and is a fan of both proper indie music ("My Bloody whonow?") and of Jimi "does not date, will never truly die" Hendrix.

Isn't that cute?BUT IT'S WRONG!
Yeah, I'm watching Two Stupid Dogs. A lot.

Yeah, Isn't Anything doesn't match Hendrix. But Loveless has better guitar than Hendrix, and anything else for that matter. Although, since Hendrix is the best overall, the last half of my previous statement goes without saying.

[FdL]

Guys, guys, don't argue about such a little thing. It's all expression of opinions after all, and until they build and "awesometer" no one's going to be scientifically sure of what is better.

What is true is that the guitars and sound in Loveless probably mean an important step in the evolution of the guitar sound as what Hendrix did in his days.

[Amotis]

Or Segovia in his.

[Stagger Lee]

Or Jeff Beck.

[Amotis]

Ew. :smallamused: How did he open up guitar playing to a new path? He started the line of showboaters, I guess. That counts for something.

[Closet_Skeleton]

This is more of a casual observation than anything, so no offense because I can sort of see what you mean, but I'm starting to think that "pretentious" is becoming like "emo": a pejorative term thrown around without anyone having a really solid idea of what it means...beyond "too intelligent" (I mean, really). So maybe it shouldn't be considered a legitimate criticism...

Odd, since Emo is the new pretentious.

Then again, Emo is also a muted great grandchild of punk, which was supposed to be anti-pretention.

Pretentious was stuck on (not entirely without reason) Prog rock and anything that started getting similar.

Really pretentious is supposed to mean "trying to appear posher than you really are while failing to demonstrate any real substance" but it's been a generic insult for at least a century..

[Amotis]

Acutally, pretencious can just mean demanding things of one self. Ambition.

*shrug* It really doesn't matter.

[Mr Croup]

Acutally, pretencious can just mean demanding things of one self. Ambition.

*shrug* It really doesn't matter.

Okay, so I hate to nitpick, especially when I don't have anything else to contribute to the thread, but evidently not enough to stop me from posting this. In what way could "pretentious" possibly be construed as meaning "ambition?" Pretentiousness is undeserved self importance, and ostentatiousness. I really don't mean any offense Amotis, but I'm just not seeing where you're getting your definition from.

To somewhat contribute to the topic at hand, I've never been a fan of The Jesus and Mary Chain, and hadn't really heard any of My Bloody Valentine's stuff until listening to the Lost In Translation soundtrack. I enjoyed the one track of theirs on that soundtrack, but even more so Kevin Shields solo work on it. I ended up listening to a handful of their songs that a friend of mine who's into shoegazing played for me, and while I can enjoy their sound, at times the distortion is a little much for me.

[Amotis]

Shrug, I looked it up. I've heard it used in such a way and I was wondering if that was right.


Main Entry: pre·ten·tious
Pronunciation: pri-'ten(t)-sh&s
Function: adjective
Etymology: French prétentieux, from prétention pretension, from Medieval Latin pretention-, pretentio, from Latin praetendere
1 : characterized by pretension : as a : making usually unjustified or excessive claims (as of value or standing) <the pretentious fraud who assumes a love of culture that is alien to him -- Richard Watts> b : expressive of affected, unwarranted, or exaggerated importance, worth, or stature <pretentious language> <pretentious houses>
2 : making demands on one's skill, ability, or means : AMBITIOUS <the pretentious daring of the Green Mountain Boys in crossing the lake -- American Guide Series: Vermont>

[Mr Croup]

Huh, that's just odd. I've never heard it used in such a manner, my apologies.

[Stagger Lee]

Odd, since Emo is the new pretentious.

Then again, Emo is also a muted great grandchild of punk, which was supposed to be anti-pretention.


Yeah, psychology is a muted great grandchild of real science, which was supposed to be neutral and accurate. Once something's two steps away from the base, its ancestry is essentially irrelevant.