When does a Bladesinger get Good?

[Edgerunner]

When people talk about builds they tend to go straight to 20 but they rarely talk about the low lvl ability of a class.

At what lvl does a Bladesinger really start to function well when it comes to Melee, Casting and AC?

[Sigreid]

As soon as a wizard takes bladesinger he has a serious advantage over non-bladesinger wizards when he's unable to avoid being targeted in melee. His armor class gets a boost right away, and the ability to wear light armor opens up the mage armor spell slot as well as the possibility of wearing magical armor.

[SharkForce]

As soon as a wizard takes bladesinger he has a serious advantage over non-bladesinger wizards when he's unable to avoid being targeted in melee. His armor class gets a boost right away, and the ability to wear light armor opens up the mage armor spell slot as well as the possibility of wearing magical armor.

on the flip side, this does not mean it is inherently a good idea to get into melee just because you are less bad at it.

you are, after all, still a wizard, with arguably the best spell list in the game (druids give you a run for your money, though).

[DracoKnight]

When people talk about builds they tend to go straight to 20 but they rarely talk about the low lvl ability of a class.

At what lvl does a Bladesinger really start to function well when it comes to Melee, Casting and AC?

Bladesingers get good from level 2. And I've been extensively playtesting them. They're really good in both the traditional Wizard role, and the Gish role. My one note: if your DM allows feats, grab War Caster and Tough as soon as you can. Those will make you insanely good.

[MaxWilson]

When people talk about builds they tend to go straight to 20 but they rarely talk about the low lvl ability of a class.

At what lvl does a Bladesinger really start to function well when it comes to Melee, Casting and AC?

Well, it's a wizard, so in 5E it's good starting from level 1 (as are many other classes), but it really hits its stride at level 3.

Level 1: Mobility (Expeditious Retreat) and defense (Mage Armor/Shield) but not enough spell slots to do that a lot.
Level 2: Bladesong for decent AC and more mobility, and more first level spell slots.
Level 3: Blur/Mirror Image/Web/Suggestion come online. Good AC paired with disadvantage for enemies is really good. Blur helps only the Bladesinger but is more reliable; Web helps everyone in the party but can be a little tricky to use effectively (depending on terrain).
Level 5: Fireball! And Hypnotic Pattern, and Vampiric Touch.
Etc.

If instead of Bladesinger you do Fighter 1/Wizard X, your progression looks similar but the breakpoints are different: you're decent at level 1, better at level 2 (when you get your first wizard level), and quite good by level 4 (2nd level spells). Bladesinger will pretty much be a level ahead on all the best spells, but the Fighter/Wizard should have abilities (e.g. Portent) that make up for the spell lag.

[Sigreid]

on the flip side, this does not mean it is inherently a good idea to get into melee just because you are less bad at it.

you are, after all, still a wizard, with arguably the best spell list in the game (druids give you a run for your money, though).

I assumed this was understood.:smallcool:

[bid]

My one note: if your DM allows feats, grab War Caster and Tough as soon as you can.
I second Tough. Wizards only get 4 hp per level, 6 with Con14. Tough is 33% more hp, enough to put you at fighter level.

[MaxWilson]

I'd recommend Lucky before Tough. Spend the Luck dice relatively late (negate the hit that would knock you down to 14 HP, not the one that would knock you down to 35 HP) and it will act as virtual, phantom HP, with the additional benefits of being usable to make vital concentration checks and petrification saving throws and skill checks, etc. It's a limited resource but more versatile than Tough is.

[Rajah]

I'm probably going to play one in my next AL game. Bladesinger seems to be one of the more divisive classes. It always seems to have tons of lovers and haters. Very few people seem ambivalent about it.

[djreynolds]

I'm lost. Tough before ASI in con or even resilient con. I think of all the wizards out there, bladesinger benefits from fighter the least early on.

Here's why.

1) Bladesong adds your intelligence modifier to you concentration checks
2) You have proficiency in wis, which you want as much as con
3) You, AFB, get a bonus to your acrobatics check, take entertainer background
4) You can wait on action surge til your second attack
5) You get leather armor and you have a short sword from elf and will get a rapier free

With standard array of 15/14/13/12/10/8 lets say you take eladrin for misty step.
10/16/13/12/16/8

At 4th level, I would take resilient con for 14 con now proficiency in con saves or war caster for advantage on concentration checks and AoO with single target spells. The rest go into dex and int.

But you want wisdom saves as much as con.

[Tanarii]

IMO bladesingers are designed so that you can avoid war caster (or resilient con unless you have an odd Con) completely. That's the entire point of their ability. Int bonus to concentration saves replaces those feats, and proficiency in a melee weapon replaces OAs with a spell. Lets you focus on other things instead.

Like Int ASI for better Concentration saves and AC. Then Dex ASI for better Melee Attacks and AC.

Bladesingers are Melee glas cannons in regards to hps, so I can see why people are suggesting tough. But they've already go concentration covered. So you really want to boost concentration, a Con ASI the best bet, since it helps the bladesingers weakness, hit points.

[SharkForce]

resilient con is just good in general. you'd be better off taking it anyways, whether you bladesing or not.

warcaster is even better for a bladesinger. now you get to add sword damage to your spell opportunity attack. what's not to like?

[HoarsHalberd]

IMO bladesingers are designed so that you can avoid war caster (or resilient con unless you have an odd Con) completely. That's the entire point of their ability. Int bonus to concentration saves replaces those feats, and proficiency in a melee weapon replaces OAs with a spell. Lets you focus on other things instead.

Like Int ASI for better Concentration saves and AC. Then Dex ASI for better Melee Attacks and AC.

Bladesingers are Melee glas cannons in regards to hps, so I can see why people are suggesting tough. But they've already go concentration covered. So you really want to boost concentration, a Con ASI the best bet, since it helps the bladesingers weakness, hit points.

You have that the wrong way around. Tough is the feat that does +2hp/level. I think you're mixing it up with Resilient that boosts concentration. Tough has no effect on concentration at all.

[Tanarii]

resilient con is just good in general. you'd be better off taking it anyways, whether you bladesing or not.

warcaster is even better for a bladesinger. now you get to add sword damage to your spell opportunity attack. what's not to like?

ASIs are more valuable elsewhere for a Bladesinger, since they already have the things Warcaster is taken for nicely covered. It's doubling up instead of taking advantage of the freed up ASI slot, so to speak. It doesn't mechanically hurt, but IMO it sure seems to be missing the point.


You have that the wrong way around. Tough is the feat that does +2hp/level. I think you're mixing it up with Resilient that boosts concentration. Tough has no effect on concentration at all.exactly my point. That makes Tough worth it for bladesingers, who need hps. And Resilient Con not as worth it, since they already have concentration covered. Even a Con ASI > Reslient (Con), unless you have an odd Con score.

[Forum Explorer]

I'm pretty sure, unless you were rolling for stats and rolled well, that if you took multiple feats you would be unable to get 20's in Int and Dex.

In the immediate sense it means your spells hit less often and/or are easier to make the saves to resist them.

[Gignere]

Bladesinger needs to cap int at a minimum. It is still a wizard, and after level 9 I just don't see any reason to melee for the BS, maybe when you run out of spell slots. But your melee is only slightly better than a cantrip why take the risk?

Bladesinger is just not working for me. Feels they tried too hard to shoehorn it into the wizard class. However the wizard spell list is too full of win for a high level BS to even consider melee. So I think the other traditions are better since they make your spell casting better instead of trying to make your melee better.

[Corran]

Bladesinger needs to cap int at a minimum. It is still a wizard, and after level 9 I just don't see any reason to melee for the BS, maybe when you run out of spell slots. But your melee is only slightly better than a cantrip why take the risk?

Bladesinger is just not working for me. Feels they tried too hard to shoehorn it into the wizard class. However the wizard spell list is too full of win for a high level BS to even consider melee. So I think the other traditions are better since they make your spell casting better instead of trying to make your melee better.
Maybe a few extra spells in the lines of the new cantrips that work with weapons would be the answer to what you say here, with which I think I agree. Bladesinger the way it is now, is just like any other wizard, but instead of the other tradition traits he has the bladesinging panic button (as it has already been successfully described).

[Gignere]

Maybe a few extra spells in the lines of the new cantrips that work with weapons would be the answer to what you say here, with which I think I agree. Bladesinger the way it is now, is just like any other wizard, but instead of the other tradition traits he has the bladesinging panic button (as it has already been successfully described).

They will have to be really powerful to compete with polymorph, animate objects, bigby, summon spells, etc. Not only are the above spells encounter ending, the wizard never has to get into melee. So melee spells for a BS will have to be better in order to make sense for the wizard to take the risk of being in melee.

[MaxWilson]

They will have to be really powerful to compete with polymorph, animate objects, bigby, summon spells, etc. Not only are the above spells encounter ending, the wizard never has to get into melee. So melee spells for a BS will have to be better in order to make sense for the wizard to take the risk of being in melee.

If you're maintaining Animate Objects, you probably want to active Bladesinging even if you're not planning on entering melee, just to protect your concentration and to enable Song of Defense in case of an unexpected threat (like a hidden sniper).

[Gignere]

If you're maintaining Animate Objects, you probably want to active Bladesinging even if you're not planning on entering melee, just to protect your concentration and to enable Song of Defense in case of an unexpected threat (like a hidden sniper).

That's a tough choice, blade song is a bonus action so you will give up one round of DPR from animate objects, bonus action to attack, unless you are aware of the threat you are probably better off not activating it. Also since the animate objects has blindsight it will be very difficult for a sniper to remain hidden.

[hymer]

That's a tough choice, blade song is a bonus action so you will give up one round of DPR from animate objects, bonus action to attack, unless you are aware of the threat you are probably better off not activating it. Also since the animate objects has blindsight it will be very difficult for a sniper to remain hidden.

The bonus action thing is in competition there, certainly. But the animated objects won't attack a sniper unless ordered to, so their ability to perceive such a foe isn't as important as the caster's. If they do get an 'attack my enemies' order and the DM is okay with that, their blindsight is only 30'. A sniper seems likely to be quite a bit further away.

[Gignere]

The bonus action thing is in competition there, certainly. But the animated objects won't attack a sniper unless ordered to, so their ability to perceive such a foe isn't as important as the caster's. If they do get an 'attack my enemies' order and the DM is okay with that, their blindsight is only 30'. A sniper seems likely to be quite a bit further away.

You keep one near you to detect snipers, in a dungeon I don't think I have ever been sniped by someone more than 50 feet away.

[djreynolds]

I'm pretty sure, unless you were rolling for stats and rolled well, that if you took multiple feats you would be unable to get 20's in Int and Dex.

In the immediate sense it means your spells hit less often and/or are easier to make the saves to resist them.

Exactly, you have 5 feats- 4 are for int and dex to get those to 20

With standard array of 15/14/13/12/10/8 lets say you take eladrin for misty step.
10/16/13/12/16/8

At 4th level, or whatever level, I would take resilient con for 14 con now proficiency in con saves or war caster for advantage on concentration checks and AoO with single target spells. The rest go into dex and int.

You are still a caster and this class is giving you bonuses for a high int score to AC and concentration checks and advantage on acrobatics, so dex should be very high as well.

The only feats are resilient con or war caster, toughness is +2 hp vs +1 hp through con resilient with the above 13 con score.

A case could be made for resilient dex, because these spells do not care about your ac and you lack evasion, and a high level AoE like fireball could hurt you bad. So dex save for half damage, possible. And this is why you need wis save proficiency for other nasty spell effects which do not care about AC.

So even if you dip fighter, you are still taking resilient wisdom.

There are "holes" in the bladesingers defense, low HP for which I prefer resilient con over toughness (it is a wash) and though you have a high dexterity score up front with melee makes you more vulnerable to evil casters who just dump fireballs on the whole gaggle.

[SharkForce]

i wouldn't focus so hard on dex. i'd much rather have a really good AC combined with really good HP and con saves than slightly better AC with lousy HP and decent con saves.

[djreynolds]

i wouldn't focus so hard on dex. i'd much rather have a really good AC combined with really good HP and con saves than slightly better AC with lousy HP and decent con saves.

I think you right, 10/16/13/12/16/8, perhaps just leave dexterity at 16 and call it a day. And lets use your idea and take war caster at 4, and then int 18 at 8th, at 12th int 20, at 16 resilient con, and at 19 maybe toughness. That's 5 feats and you have much more survivability and still max int for extra AC and spells. War Caster will give you AoO and advantage on concentration, coupled with intelligence you should be fine. It is then a toss up with toughness and resilient con, perhaps with which just comes first. I think you can survive with 16 dex and some magic item to boost it up, I mean +3 to hit vs +5 to hit.

This could work or raise int at 4 and then grab war caster at 8th level to go along with your extra attack you may feel more "froggy" at entering combat then.

So you want a 20 int.
Dex can stay at 16 for a while.
With the odd score in con you could grab resilient con.
And then its toughness vs war caster, and perhaps toughness wins here.

But to get the build on line quick by level 8, your intelligence maxed out should cover the small holes in defense and concentration, but I can see for your point of view it does not fix the hit points, resilient con could do that and help cover concentration checks until you get high enough to take toughness.

You win, leave dex at 16, and call it a day.

[hymer]

You keep one near you to detect snipers, in a dungeon I don't think I have ever been sniped by someone more than 50 feet away.

How does that play out? You order an int 3, wis 3 animated object to inform you if it notices a sniper? That doesn't exactly seem fool proof. Even if it does notice the sniper, you're liable to get shot at anyway by canny opponents.

[Gignere]

How does that play out? You order an int 3, wis 3 animated object to inform you if it notices a sniper? That doesn't exactly seem fool proof. Even if it does notice the sniper, you're liable to get shot at anyway by canny opponents.

It's not fool proof but should be just as effective as the 3 int guard dog. When you order a guard dog to protect you.

[hymer]

It's not fool proof but should be just as effective as the 3 int guard dog. When you order a guard dog to protect you.

The guard dog isn't blind beyond 30', and it's trainable. The mastiff also sports +1 wis modifier compared to -4 of the animated object. Even so, a dog is hardly the best defence against a sniper, and the animated object only less so.