Druid Multiclassing

[UrsusArctos]

I am currently playing a level 3 Moon Druid in Hoard of the Dragon Queen, and was wondering if I should take a one level dip into Monk or Barbarian, mostly for unarmed strike. Which is better, and when should I take this dip?

My Wisdom is 18 and my natural Constitution is 13.

[MightyDog16]

I am currently playing a level 3 Moon Druid in Hoard of the Dragon Queen, and was wondering if I should take a one level dip into Monk or Barbarian, mostly for unarmed strike. Which is better, and when should I take this dip?

My Wisdom is 18 and my natural Constitution is 13.

The first concern is if you meet the ability score minimums to multiclass into either of those classes. Monk requires 13 Dex and Wis, Barbarian requires 13 Str.

Now that that's out of the way, I'd say YES you should totally dip into either one if it makes sense for your character as far as the story goes. When it comes to character creation/progression I always recommend doing things that MAKE SENSE for your character. If you go Monk, where did you get your martial arts training? It doesn't just happen overnight. If you go Barbarian you could totally say your Rage is a by-product of you slowly slipping into your animal instincts from Wild Shape use.

Hope this helps!

[hymer]

I am currently playing a level 3 Moon Druid in Hoard of the Dragon Queen, and was wondering if I should take a one level dip into Monk or Barbarian, mostly for unarmed strike. Which is better, and when should I take this dip?

My Wisdom is 18 and my natural Constitution is 13.

It depends how your DM rules the various abilities. Strictly by RAW, unarmed strikes don't work with wild shape. Exactly which class abilities do and don't (and when they do and don't) is a tangle.
To put it longly (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?457532-Druid-Multiclassing-an-addendum-%28WIP%29).

[Saggo]

If you're looking to strictly increase Wild Shape DPR, then you should look at a Paladin dip for Smite.

[Hudsonian]

Something tells me that he meant unarmored defense. Seeing as Barbarians don't get unarmed strike.
I would say that monk is the better 1 off in the case that you get more at lower levels and your ac gets the wis mod.

[Zman]

A one level dip in Mond is amazing for upping your Wildshape AC. I would recommend it. A one level delay to your abilities for the ability to wildshape and be significantly harder to hit is tough to pass up.

[SharkForce]

A one level dip in Mond is amazing for upping your Wildshape AC. I would recommend it. A one level delay to your abilities for the ability to wildshape and be significantly harder to hit is tough to pass up.

honestly, it probably still leaves you with not particularly amazing AC, and is likely a relatively small improvement. it might be worthwhile in the very short term, but you're probably better off asking a caster in the party to throw mage armour on you or something like that.

[Zman]

honestly, it probably still leaves you with not particularly amazing AC, and is likely a relatively small improvement. it might be worthwhile in the very short term, but you're probably better off asking a caster in the party to throw mage armour on you or something like that.

Mage armor is so much worse, sure it doesn't cost you a class level, but it is 13 + dex, so it is not stacking with mage armor, it is going to be an either or.

You call +4 then later +5 AC a relatively small improvement that is only worthwhile in the shorterm, I say that is wrong.

AC18/19 vs AC14 Direwolf is huge at low levels, like seriously amazing.
AC17 vs AC12 Polar/Cave bear is massive for ~6th level.
AC19 vs AC14 Giant Crocodile...
AC18 vs AC13 Mammoth is huge. AC18 is respectable against most threats.

No matter what way you slice it versus just about every foe in the MM you are making 25% of all attacks, attacks that would have been Hits turn into Misses.

For instance if your opponent needs a 6 to hit you, that means that 75% of their attacks hit.
With a 1 level Dip in Monk that becomes an 11 to hit, or 50% of their attacks hitting.

That is a 50% increase in effective HP.

If they needed an 11, 50% hit and now need a 16, 25% hit, now that is a 100% increase in survivability.

If they needed a 2 to hit, 95%, and now need a 7, 70%, that is still over a 33% increase in survivability.

I can't think of any dip in any class that has that profound of an impact on surviability at any level let alone at almost every single level.

[SharkForce]

Mage armor is so much worse, sure it doesn't cost you a class level, but it is 13 + dex, so it is not stacking with mage armor, it is going to be an either or.

You call +4 then later +5 AC a relatively small improvement that is only worthwhile in the shorterm, I say that is wrong.

AC18/19 vs AC14 Direwolf is huge at low levels, like seriously amazing.
AC17 vs AC12 Polar/Cave bear is massive for ~6th level.
AC19 vs AC14 Giant Crocodile...
AC18 vs AC13 Mammoth is huge. AC18 is respectable against most threats.

No matter what way you slice it versus just about every foe in the MM you are making 25% of all attacks, attacks that would have been Hits turn into Misses.

For instance if your opponent needs a 6 to hit you, that means that 75% of their attacks hit.
With a 1 level Dip in Monk that becomes an 11 to hit, or 50% of their attacks hitting.

That is a 50% increase in effective HP.

If they needed an 11, 50% hit and now need a 16, 25% hit, now that is a 100% increase in survivability.

If they needed a 2 to hit, 95%, and now need a 7, 70%, that is still over a 33% increase in survivability.

I can't think of any dip in any class that has that profound of an impact on surviability at any level let alone at almost every single level.

dire wolf is AC 17 *if* you have 20 wisdom vs AC 15 with mage armour. the 14 AC is natural armor, not just a magical +2 bonus to AC because reasons. a monk level gives you a new formula to use as well, not just +wisdom to AC. yeah, that's nice, but not that nice.

likewise polar bear, 12 AC is from natural armour, with a monk level their AC is only 15 with 20 wisdom, vs 13 with a negligible investment from a caster.

giant crocodile is again getting AC from natural armour, and actually does not improve even the tiniest bit with a monk level thanks to their dex penalty.

mammoth with a monk level is a whopping AC 14 as well, which is at least an improvement unlike the crocodile.

so yes, generally speaking, it isn't giving you amazing AC, and the boost is not huge, particularly when compared to the cost of a single level 1 spell slot.

because to be brutally honest about it, in a few more levels, moon druid wild shape forms will no longer be terribly awe-inspiring in combat. there will be a brief period of a few more levels where polymorph is king, but since that doesn't let you keep class features, the level of monk or barbarian won't help there.

it is further worth noting when those forms come online. at level 19, for example (the point at which you'll get the mammoth form unlocked), AC 18 wouldn't be that impressive even if you did actually have such an AC (which you don't, because monk is not just a boost to AC but rather a new formula just like mage armour).

it doesn't do absolutely nothing. but really is not nearly as amazing as you're suggesting. even on a moon druid, you're still a druid. your spell list is a major part of your power, and once you get past the levels where wild shape dominates everything (which more or less happens once regular melees start getting their second attacks at level 5 or sometimes 6, and then level 7 and polymorph comes along and wild shape is a joke compared to turning into a giant ape or a t-rex) it is going to be a major source of power.

you're a moon druid, not a shapeshifter with no other powers. by taking a level of monk or barbarian, you delay those other powers. that isn't always a terrible idea, but it *is* a significant cost to consider, as you are giving up spells that come from what is probably either the second most powerful or most powerful spell list out there. it really is not as good as you think.

[Saggo]

Another option is Barkskin. Feats can be used to mitigate Concentration.


AC18/19 vs AC14 Direwolf is huge at low levels, like seriously amazing.
AC17 vs AC12 Polar/Cave bear is massive for ~6th level.
AC19 vs AC14 Giant Crocodile...
AC18 vs AC13 Mammoth is huge. AC18 is respectable against most threats.

Unarmored Defense is not just +Con or +Wis. It's 10 + Dex + Con/Wis. Dex gets replaced in Wild Shape.

[Zman]

Yes, my mistake, so a 20Wis Druid is always going to offer +2 AC with a single level of Monk. When compared to Mage Armor. 20Wis is the norm by level 8, 9 with the Multicalsss. Before that at lvl4 it is still better than Mage armor and spell slots are more specious for party casters then as well. That is still very solid and does not require a party member to cater to your character.

Needing an 11+ to hit to a 13+ is a 20% reduction in being hit and corresponds to a 25% increase in durability over Mage Armor and likely 33% increase in durability without the dip. Significant.

[SharkForce]

at level 8 and 9, your wild shape form is just not very impressive, period.

you *could* be throwing out call lightning every round in a fight, or using the rather superior polymorph (again, i don't care if you have +2 AC, giant ape or t-rex is better than any CR 2 or 3 creature).

at level 2, your wild shape is amazing. you get brown bear or dire wolf, giving you offensive capabilities superior to anything other than maybe a variant human melee combat fighter or barbarian with polearm master, and are also a huge HP sponge. at level 5, making your AC suck slightly less still leaves you getting hit often, most every other attacking build has caught up to or surpassed your damage, and wild shape is basically a free extra cantrip that you didn't have to spend on dealing damage. at level 7 when you finally get CR 2 forms, you're probably not much better offensively with your wild shape but enemies continue to scale while your attack rolls remain most likely 2 points lower than the rest of the party. at level 10, you've got CR 3 forms while a pure moon druid has elementals to get them through tough fights. at level 11, the moon druid has elementals and also got access to level 6 spells, which are far more useful than +2 to AC even in the elemental forms, because even the elemental's offense is *still* lagging behind a regular melee (in fact, it is getting further and further behind; fighters have gained their third attack and have an extra ASI at this point, rangers are getting their cool archetype abilities, and barbarians have been quietly accumulating offensive buffs for the past several levels and get danged near impossible to kill).

a monk dip is very powerful from level 3 (when you first get access to combat wild shape and unarmored defense) to level 4 (the duration in which your wild shape's offense is probably still competitive with or superior to regular melee builds). it starts to go downhill at 5 when regular melee classes get their second attack, drops like a rock at level 7 when the pure druid would be using polymorph, and never really recovers thereafter.

which is a bit of a problem, because 1-4 goes by very quickly, and by the time you've hit level 5, well, level 1 spells slots are really starting to lose their shine. offensively, they're likely to be only marginally superior to cantrips, and if you need a spell to swing the fight, it's probably going to be level 2 or 3 slots that you're looking to because level 1 spells are generally not game-changers.

a 1-level dip into monk [edit: isn't. man, what a single word changes...] going to ruin everything. but you really don't gain a lot, and you are giving up a lot. if you're going to tunnel on wild shape that hard, i cannot recommend a single level dip.

[Hudsonian]

I'm really curious if there has been any discussion on martial arts mixing with wild shape. It would make sense to me that natural weapons (claws, teeth, etc) would fit into the restrictions giving you the choice to use Dex over Str and giving you a bonus action d4 + dex/STR attack. That seems like it could be REALLY helpful in the in-between levels.

[Saggo]

20Wis is the norm by level 8, 9 with the Multicalsss. Before that at lvl4 it is still better than Mage armor and spell slots are more specious for party casters then as well.Not necessarily. Resilient and War Caster are recommended, normal picks for a Moon Druid. Taking into consideration additional multiclassing (Paladin, Rogue, etc), additional feats, and the likelihood of a Moon Druid using spellcasting for support over offense (reducing the reliance on a high modifier), 20 Wisdom is not the norm.

Certainly possible it just takes a targeted build, like Monk Unarmored Defense, which means it has a non-replenishing investment cost. That merely brings it in line with Mage Armor, which has the benefit of working with any build and a replenishable cost (single slot), but requires an external caster. An aside, buffing a party member is not "catering".

More relevantly, the OP could make it work. You could take the +2 now and Monk at 5, benefiting from the spell modifier a little earlier. Or take Monk now and +2 at 5, benefiting from the AC a little earlier.

Of course, neither Unarmored Defense or Mage Armor will be useful with every shape. Giant Crocodile is 14 Natural, 14 with Unarmored Defense and +5 Wis, and 12 Mage Armor. Earth Elemental is 17 Natural, 14 Unarmored and +5 Wis, and 12 Mage Armor. Polymorphed Giant Ape replaces Wisdom, so that's 12 Natural, 13 Unarmored, and 15 Mage Armor. Obviously I'm cherry picking, but it doesn't work every time, and it doesn't work with some of the most useful combat shapes. Air Elemental would have 20 AC Unarmored, so that's pretty neat.

The real question the OP needs to answer for her/himself is what Shapes do I plan to use, what role (DPR, tank, support, etc) do I plan to play, what level I plan to play to, and do I want to delay CRs and Spell Slots or just use Barkskin.

My opinion, without knowing that stuff, Unarmored Defense is not worth it.


I'm really curious if there has been any discussion on martial arts mixing with wild shape. It would make sense to me that natural weapons (claws, teeth, etc) would fit into the restrictions giving you the choice to use Dex over Str and giving you a bonus action d4 + dex/STR attack. That seems like it could be REALLY helpful in the in-between levels.

Strictly speaking, beast attacks aren't simple melee weapons and I can't think of any beasts that have unarmed attack as an action. So it'd be up to your DM to allow it, in which case it could be a DPR increase.

[Hudsonian]

a monk level gives you a new formula to use as well, not just +wisdom to AC. yeah, that's nice, but not that nice.

So I was looking at the rules clarifications from WotC and they say that Natural Armor is not considered armor that you are wearing. (http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/SA_Compendium.pdf)

The way that I would apply this is that all creatures have natural armor of 10, some creatures are just harder to penetrate and so their "natural armor" is higher. (Giant Alligators have thick leathery skin, dragons have scales, etc.)

Which means that, yes, a Dire Wolf (being a magical wolf) has a "magical" +2 to AC.

I'm still looking for answers on my last question. I can totally see it going both ways. I've seen guides that say yes to bonus action attack and forum posts that say no. Haven't seen anything from WotC yet.

Edit: The struck portion is not RAW, it appears that the Multiclassing section of the PHB clearly states that when two formulas of AC are available, take the higher. Two formulas in this case being a) Beast AC, b) Monk AC. They don't combine.

That being said... KUNG FU PANDA!

[SharkForce]

RAW, a wildshaped druid keeps all class features. martial arts is a class feature. the druid is not armed with a non-monk weapon (claws, teeth, etc all make melee weapon attacks, but are not weapons, just like an unarmed strike).

so, a druid/monk should be able to make a bonus action martial arts attack... provided your DM doesn't rule that your form does not rule out the use of martial arts in general. some will, some won't, so it's unfortunately entirely in DM's opinion territory. personally, i'd allow it on the theory that if you're a monk/druid, you're probably from some specific order of multiclassed monk/druids that combine the two techniques.

note that this still falls off pretty hard though; you'll be somewhere in the neighbourhood of monk DPR while in wild shape form, except that you won't have the majority of the really awesome monk abilities that compensate monks for not having good DPR. instead, they have a bunch of druid spells that don't work while they're wild shaped, including what are probably superior combat options most of the time.

edit: that having been said, it is important to note that martial arts keys off of you using the attack action, and using unarmed strike or monk weapons. multiattack is *not* the attack action, and claws, teeth, etc, are not unarmed strikes. you could, in essence, fight as a level 1 monk with no weapons and their attributes replaced by the animal's. so, still not good.

[hymer]

RAW, a wildshaped druid keeps all class features.

Now that's clear and requires no asking the DM, so obviously it can't be the whole truth in 5e. :smallsmile: There is a weaseling clause; "if the new form is physically capable of doing so."