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Tyger
2007-06-03, 11:20 AM
OK, one of our party members recently contracted lycanthropy, and underwent his first change so we can't heal him (not sure if he'd want to be healed anyway!).

However, as he is running rampant when he changes, we need a way to contain him until he gets control back, or at least long enough for us to get out of his effective range. Our party consists of an elven scout, the scout's knight cohort, a psychic warrior, the ranger (afflicted with lycanthropy) and me, the party wizard.

My wizard just cracked 8th level and I am in the process of taking my two free spells. Looking for suggestions on spells that would have a reasonable chance of containing or incapacitiating a level 8 werewolf without hurting him. The first one that comes to mind is Resilient Sphere. If he doesn't make his reflex save, that will hold him for 8 minutes. Which would either give us time to run like hades (though I'll have to stay close I think, or the sphere will go away) or him to make a will save to get control. The problem is, of course, that I am tagging his best save! With his 20ish dex, I thnk his saving throw is in the +10-12 range, vs my paltry 19DC. So he's saving easily half the time.

Any other suggestions?

Stagger Lee
2007-06-03, 11:25 AM
What kind of Lycanthrope? I recommend casting sleep spells before he changes, with him voluntarily failing the save. Then make sure he doesn't wake up.

Tyger
2007-06-03, 11:28 AM
As noted above, he's a werewolf.

And its not so much about hitting him before he changes, as after. We didn't get a lot of notice the first time he changed. And at 8th level, he's immune to the Sleep spell. Though I suppose not to the Deep Slumber version... that's worth thinking about.

And I should have mentioned earlier, spells available are pretty much anything in the PHB, DMG, PHBII and SC.

PinkysBrain
2007-06-03, 11:57 AM
Unless you are using houserules or you are for some reason not telling the guy he has lycanthropy you are playing it "wrong".

"A character with awareness of his condition retains his identity and does not lose control of his actions if he changes. However, each time he changes to his animal form, he must make a Will save (DC 15 + number of times he has been in animal form) or permanently assume the alignment of his animal form in all shapes."

PS. polymorph will strip him of the lycanthropy template temporarily. I wouldn't recommend using the spell though, better to pretend it doesn't exist ... it's completely broken.

Tyger
2007-06-03, 12:04 PM
Well, not sure if the DM is houseruling or not, but this was the first change for the character, so its still within the rules. And of course, the rest of the characters don't know if he'll gain control (made a Knowledge Aracana check on the topic, but no one has specialized knowledge on monsters), so for now we're proceeding as though he needs to be contained.

Quietus
2007-06-03, 12:12 PM
You could try Charm Monster - at the very least, that'll make your wild friend view you as his best friend. Duration : One day/level. Have him willingly fail the save before the moon on the first day, and you're good. It's kind of unfortunate that it isn't a dismissable spell, but if you guys are already good friends in-game, then it won't make any change in his normal behavior, only his transformed behavior.

Driderman
2007-06-03, 12:17 PM
I suggest hog-tying him with silver shackles the next he goes to sleep and then bring him to some sort of expert. If he can't help, the best thing you can do is put the poor bloke out of his misery. I mean, he'd rather be dead than a werewolf murdering innocents, right? And if that's not the case, you might want to skip the 'consult an expert' part and just cut his head off right away. Unless of course you're all evil characters in which case: Hey neat, we got a werewolf!

Citizen Joe
2007-06-03, 12:18 PM
Wolves are pack animals and you can exploit that. If you convince the 'wolf' that the rest of the party is his 'pack' then there should be less problems. However, a pack needs a leader. The rest of the pack can be submissive and accept the 'wolf' as leader, or one person needs to clearly dominate the 'wolf' and never show weakness.

goat
2007-06-03, 12:22 PM
Get some knowledge, and get some Manacles. Rope will do, but really requires a player with a decent use rope skill. If you can get one, a cage is good, go into town away from a full moon, buy a strong animal cage, put him in it when he's likely to change.

Gralamin
2007-06-03, 12:24 PM
I suggest hog-tying him with silver shackles the next he goes to sleep and then bring him to some sort of expert. If he can't help, the best thing you can do is put the poor bloke out of his misery. I mean, he'd rather be dead than a werewolf murdering innocents, right? And if that's not the case, you might want to skip the 'consult an expert' part and just cut his head off right away. Unless of course you're all evil characters in which case: Hey neat, we got a werewolf!

Quoted for Truth.

kpenguin
2007-06-03, 12:31 PM
How close is the nearest cleric? If you make in time (within three days) to a high level cleric (at least lvl 12), then you can heal him of the curse. Otherwise... if he doesn't mind losing level, you can search for the nearest druid of seventh level or higher and have your friend... die (ritual suicide, a bit poison in his drink, it's all the same). Get the druid to cast reincarnate. Since it changes the character's race (and thus, also its subtype) it should work on removing lycanthropy.

Tyger
2007-06-03, 12:32 PM
Well, something tells me that the DM isn't sticking with the "wolves are by nature CE" alignment bit. We're a good party, the character is a CG ranger, and the DMs been really pretty adamant throughout that this game is and will remain good aligned.

That said, anyone have any answers to the original question? How to contain him if he goes wolfy and evil on us again? We have neither the time nor the gold to cure him.

And I am not looking for answers that include "kill him" or "manacle him before he changes" or anything like that. Assume that he's already changed, is out of his mind, and is trying to kill the entire party. We want to be able to take him out of the fight without hurting him.

The Charm Person and pack ideas are good ones though. Have to look into using those ideas.

ghost_warlock
2007-06-03, 01:01 PM
Countermoon is a 2nd-level druid spell in Spell Complendium that forces a lycanthrope back into their humanoid form. Maybe your DM would let you research a variant of it (at 3rd or 4th spell level?), considering the circumstances. If nothing else, it could help contain him during those three difficult days of the month.

As soon as he can, make sure your buddy takes as many ranks as possible in the Control Shape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm) skill (it automatically becomes a class skill for him).

goat
2007-06-03, 01:09 PM
If you just want to avoid him: get out of his way, cast rope trick, and hide.

Otherwise, I think Remove Curse can cure him, as long as you cast it while he's in wolf-form.

Green Bean
2007-06-03, 01:09 PM
Mind-affecting spells are a good option. My suggestion is Suggestion. Looking at the template, INT doesn't change, so language isn't a problem. If it starts coming after you, give it suggestions along the lines of tying itself up, or going to sleep, or something that keeps it busy for the spell's duration ("You're really hungry. You should hunt down <insert rare animal that isn't in region>")

Citizen Joe
2007-06-03, 01:10 PM
Note that werewolves aren't all THAT badass. They get a little stronger and a bit tougher, plus that damage resistance. But they don't have that chain busting unstoppable strength that they had in 2nd edition. They don't have particularly good will saves either, so attack the mind. You may need to fashion a silver choke collar for him to remind him who is boss. Assuming its too late to cure, slap a MoJ on him and word it in such a way that you can control him. But you still need to let him hunt on occassion. So, that means around the full moons, you need to find evil creatures to let him destroy. Eventually, try to find a helm of opposite alignment. Or make a collar with that enchantment (only like 4000 gold). Its a will save so you just need to restrain him one time in hybrid form and slap on the collar... poof Lawful good werewolf. Of course then you have a wolf that is overly self righteous and complains about how erratic and hedonistic his human self is. From a roleplaying point of view, I'd say the 'wolf' considers the party and more likely the local area people his 'Pack' and is selflessly devoted to their protection. Knowing the posibility of passing on the curse, he would likely relentlessly behead and burn the corpse of anyone that MAY have been afflicted by him for their own good.

Seffbasilisk
2007-06-03, 01:15 PM
Mind-affecting spells are a good option. My suggestion is Suggestion. Looking at the template, INT doesn't change, so language isn't a problem. If it starts coming after you, give it suggestions along the lines of tying itself up, or going to sleep, or something that keeps it busy for the spell's duration ("You're really hungry. You should hunt down <insert rare animal that isn't in region>")

Decent idea there, but one issue. You're making a werewolf hungry, then telling it that it should hunt a creature it can't reach? Either A: He runs too far away to rejoin the party or B: He eats the party.

Mind affecting would work though, the Deep Slumber one is probably best.

Citizen Joe
2007-06-03, 01:24 PM
Suggestion: "We are your pack and I am the leader. HEEL!"

Fizban
2007-06-03, 01:31 PM
Keep in mind that lycanthropy gives +2 wisdom, so his will save will go up by 1. Not as bad as his reflex save sure, but it will be higher than before.

DracoDei
2007-06-03, 01:37 PM
Well, depending on how far into the wilderness you are and how long you intend to stay out there, getting the rest of the party infected is one counter-intuitive solution... if there aren't any innocent victems around normally, and you time your next trip into town right, and you aren't using horses, you might do fine that way.

Jack_Simth
2007-06-03, 01:54 PM
Step 1: Stay *far* away from civilization.
Step 2: Cast Resilient Sphere - not on him, on you (and the rest of the party; this is designed to buy you a few minutes to get everyone into the next step)
Step 3: Cast an (Extended) Rope Trick on a 5-foot piece of rope.
Step 4: Climb into Rope Trick, pull Rope up behind.
Step 5: Next day, once everything's done, try to find him.

Yechezkiel
2007-06-03, 02:04 PM
I was the PC sibling of a werewolf character in a game not too long ago... we came from a community where it wasn't so uncommon (to be a lycanthrope) and an Alchemy recipe existed that subdued the change for the nights of the full moon.

I don't remember the DC of the Craft: Alchemy, but I remember it being pretty hard to keep making as we traveled (I was a Druid and, at first, we were trying to keep it secret from the party). It was a really fun aspect of the story, especially when it eventually got out.

Maybe your DM would allow something similar? Hell, if he likes this idea enough I'll write up a paragraph background about where it came from in that world/game.

Sutremaine
2007-06-03, 02:23 PM
Unless you are using houserules or you are for some reason not telling the guy he has lycanthropy you are playing it "wrong".

"A character with awareness of his condition retains his identity and does not lose control of his actions if he changes. However, each time he changes to his animal form, he must make a Will save (DC 15 + number of times he has been in animal form) or permanently assume the alignment of his animal form in all shapes."
But before that can happen, a DC 15 Wisdom check is required for the character to remember the time spent transformed and become aware of his affliction. I don't see anything in the thread that says whether or not the character is aware of his rampages.

It seems that alignment change doesn't happen until the afflicted character realises he's a werewolf. If your DM weren't adamant about keeping a Good-aligned campaign, it might be better to keep the guy in the dark until you can get a Helm of Opposing Alignment and restrain him (just in case he changes his mind about the whole idea after turning CE).

Diggorian
2007-06-03, 02:27 PM
I'd recommend Bestow Curse, with the -4 to attack and saves. Then the Charm Monster to get him on everyone's side, the Curse will weaken his weakest save:Will. If the Charm doesnt take, Deep Slumber (Will too). If both those fail, then try Inevitable Defeat from PHB2. While he's taking 3d6 nonlethal per round do total defense.

Tyger
2007-06-03, 02:29 PM
Nice! Like the Helm of Opposite Alignment idea... I'll just make it a collar. :)

And the druid spell is also good to go, I'll look at researching that asap.

Suggestion though, don't know why I didn't think of that.

Thanks all for the ideas. The RP is probably going to take care of itself really soon, but in the meantime, need to formulate some other ideas. And these ones will go a long way.

lord_khaine
2007-06-03, 02:41 PM
i would really just tie him up on the night of the full moon, and let that be it until you find a more permanent solution.

Koji
2007-06-03, 03:17 PM
Nonlethal attacks with silver weapons. Beat him into unconsciousness and don't let him get back up.

Animate rope with the wizard to improve his use rope check. Lycanthropes have a tendency to burst out of ropes when they change due to the fact that their size/shape changes, but if he's good enough, he can account or that.

Failing that, make him sleep in a circus wagon-type cage.

ZeroNumerous
2007-06-03, 04:23 PM
I'm still not understanding the problem. He should definitely be able to control his change once he realizes he's a lycanthrope. Just boost his Will save to the point where he constantly makes the easy save versus gaining the creature's alignment.

Driderman
2007-06-03, 05:21 PM
I'm still not understanding the problem. He should definitely be able to control his change once he realizes he's a lycanthrope. Just boost his Will save to the point where he constantly makes the easy save versus gaining the creature's alignment.

Until he fails it and tries to rip apart the party?
No, I believe the best thing would be to cure him...

Accersitus
2007-06-03, 05:44 PM
If he's an elf, or half-elf, you could say he became a Lyrathi(CG elven werewolf from Races of Faerun, but otherwise not any different from the normal werewolf)
This will make sure the Ranger won't go on random killing sprees, but he would still have some wolfish traits.

Or you could ask the DM to give you a ritual type spell, and use the Dragonball method:
Blow up the moon :smallbiggrin:

ZeroNumerous
2007-06-03, 05:48 PM
Until he fails it and tries to rip apart the party?
No, I believe the best thing would be to cure him...

Or, you could do the intelligent thing and just hit him with a scroll of Deep Slumber and have him willingly fail the save. He gains the creature's alignment: So what, he's still in control. He can choose to willingly fail a save. He fails the save. He sleeps.

Tyger
2007-06-03, 08:49 PM
And the will save isn't exactly easy. Sure, it starts out at a 16, but after that, it goes up by one each and every time he's wolfed out. Eventually, he's going to go batty on us.

Of course, all that assumes that the DM doesn't have a plan in mind, which I believe he does. I am not worried about the long term stuff, just trying to keep him from killing anyone in the short term. The long term stuff will take care of itself.

But the Suggestion, Deep Slumber, Charm Person and other ideas presented here have given me some food for thought. Won't be such a big problem next time he goes all wolfish on us. Thanks all!

ghost_warlock
2007-06-03, 09:16 PM
Heh, this thread is very timely for me - my dwarven barbarian/rogue just got infected with wererat lycanthropy. :smallbiggrin:

dyslexicfaser
2007-06-03, 09:35 PM
I thought the Lyrathi were a race, not an actual lycanthrope curse?

Maybe I'm thinking of something else.

Personally, I think it would be fun to try and beat the werewolf unconscious, prove to him you aren't going to take his crap. "Oh no, our friend is turning into a murderous beast, whatever shall we do...! *POW* Right in the kisser!"

bigbaddragon
2007-06-04, 07:22 AM
First thing of course is that he should get ranks in "Control form" skill ASAP. The best way to contain him would be attacking his mind since his will saves are probably cheery. Try "Tashas hideous laughter" - lasts rpl and makes him lie down and laugh all that time. You could also try ray spells:

- ray of enfeeblement (no save, min/lvl, lvl1 spell): takes penalty d6 + 1 per 2 levels (max 5),

- ray of exhaustion (fort save, min/lvl, lvl3 spell): if he fails saving throw he is exhausted, otherwise fatigued - this means if you hit him twice with this spell even if he makes both saving throws he will be exhausted because if the target was already fatigued it becomes exhausted (-6 str & dex)

- ray of clumsiness (no save, min/lvl, lvl1 spell) : same as ray of enfeeblement but penalty is applied to dexterity

- ray of dizziness (no save, rpl, lvl3 spell) : target can take either move or standard action not both

- ray of weakness (no save, min/lvl, lvl2 spell) : -10 feet to speed and -2 to attacks

You could also make good use of glitterdust (will save, rpl, lvl2 spell) which would blind him.
You could even maximize ray of enfeeblement and drop his str so he cannot even move. After all of this you could beat him up easy with nonlethal damage.

Of course these are only backup options if deep slumber doesn't work out.
Ray spells are pretty aren't they, especially with split ray.

Person_Man
2007-06-04, 07:38 AM
Have the Skill Monkey tie him up with adamantine chains and a lot of ranks in Use Rope.

You can also just put him into a Portable Hole with a Bottle of Air. While that's impractical because of the cost, its a very useful way to keep any prisoner.

Funkyodor
2007-06-05, 03:11 AM
Bands of Billaro are great unless he has a STR greater than 40, or more than a +10 escape artist modifier. If not then escape nearly impossible (Natural 20 STR check required). Hit him before or right as he changes and bam. But if you're trying to save on cash, masterwork manacles and a good rope use guy.

Renx
2007-06-05, 03:44 AM
Um... why not just chain him?

Tyger
2007-06-05, 07:28 AM
Um... why not just chain him?

Because, as I stated at least twice, its not a question of containing him prior to the change. That would be easy. Its a question of containing him after he has unpredictably gone in to a change in the middle of combat and is now trying to kill everyone around him.

DreadArchon
2007-06-05, 10:50 AM
Because, as I stated at least twice, its not a question of containing him prior to the change. That would be easy. Its a question of containing him after he has unpredictably gone in to a change in the middle of combat and is now trying to kill everyone around him.
You could shoot him with Whelm-type spells (PHBII) too, if you have time to prepare them.

Remember, there's no chance of accidentally doing serious damage to someone in D&D like there is in real life. Violence solves everything. Bar fight? Put subdual substitution on a fireball and BAM! Best friend out of line? Take a -4 to your attack roll and start swinging your spiked chain at him, he'll be fine--guaranteed. Little kids that you're babysitting for getting fussy? Kick them until they stop moving. Don't worry, you couldn't do actual damage to them if your life depended on it! :smalltongue:

Renx
2007-06-05, 11:30 AM
Because, as I stated at least twice, its not a question of containing him prior to the change. That would be easy. Its a question of containing him after he has unpredictably gone in to a change in the middle of combat and is now trying to kill everyone around him.

Lycantrophy works like that now? Nice. How about chains that contain only lycanthropes in lupus form? If you don't mind him going wolf, then having the chains materialize and get him prone in a battle :smallbiggrin:

Also, how about a chain, magicked to act as a modified rope of climbing (chain of climbing and binding, maybe? :smallbiggrin:)? You could just throw it at him and order to constrict. You could add some restrictions that it only works on wolf lycanthropes, that should bring the price down. Or make it from silver.

Tyger
2007-06-05, 12:14 PM
Lycantrophy works like that now? Nice. How about chains that contain only lycanthropes in lupus form? If you don't mind him going wolf, then having the chains materialize and get him prone in a battle :smallbiggrin:

Also, how about a chain, magicked to act as a modified rope of climbing (chain of climbing and binding, maybe? :smallbiggrin:)? You could just throw it at him and order to constrict. You could add some restrictions that it only works on wolf lycanthropes, that should bring the price down. Or make it from silver.

Well, lycanthropy has always worked like this... at least according to the SRD and MM. When an afflicted individual takes damage equal to one quarter of his HP, he has to make a Control Shape check (assuming he's aware of his condition) or turn into his animal form. And of course, that applies again at each other quarter of the HP he takes. So he could, in theory, be making 3 Control Shape checks during the course of a single fight. Fail one, and he's a CE monster. Sure he's aware of his plight now, but he still suddenly becomes CE and maybe not so predisposed to eating the carrot stew we were planning on having. And the plump little mage suddenly looks a lot more appetizing. :)

Either way, whether its RAW or not, the question still stands - how to take out a fellow PC without harming him, especially one with a high reflext save, decent strength and by far the best combat abilities in the group. Quite a few folks have made some great suggestions though, and thanks for those.

Krrth
2007-06-05, 01:50 PM
I'm not sure the Helm of Opposite Alignment would work. I don't have the books in front of me, but I faintly recall something about when they change, the alignment resets to racial standard. Other than that....in FR, worshipers of sulune (I think...moon domain, anyways) ignored alignment restrictions for lycanthropes. If it's not FR, talk your DM into having a similar deity.

Sutremaine
2007-06-05, 05:19 PM
Any player character not yet aware of his or her lycanthropic condition temporarily becomes an NPC during an involuntary change, and acts according to the alignment of his or her animal form.

A character with awareness of his condition retains his identity and does not lose control of his actions if he changes. However, each time he changes to his animal form, he must make a Will save (DC 15 + number of times he has been in animal form) or permanently assume the alignment of his animal form in all shapes.
Bolding mine. I believe this means that he only becomes susceptible to alignment changes once he becomes aware of his condition, but the text isn't as clear as I'd like it to be. Does he know he's a werewolf yet?

Remove Curse (700gp scroll) or Break Enchantment (1125gp scroll) will restore him to normal, no matter how long he's been a werewolf, as long as you cast it during one of the three days of the full moon and he makes the DC 20 Will save. However, it might not negate the 'permanent alignment change' aspect of lycanthropy, in which case you'll be needing the helm if he's become CE.

Helm of Opposite Alignment:

This metal hat looks like a typical helmet. When placed upon the head, however, its curse immediately takes effect (Will DC 15 negates). On a failed save, the alignment of the wearer is radically altered to an alignment as different as possible from the former alignment—good to evil, chaotic to lawful, neutral to some extreme commitment (LE, LG, CE, or CG). Alteration in alignment is mental as well as moral, and the individual changed by the magic thoroughly enjoys his new outlook. A character who succeeds on his save can continue to wear the helmet without suffering the effect of the curse, but if he takes it off and later puts it on again, another save is required. The curse only works once; that is, a character whose alignment has been changed cannot change it again by donning the helmet a second time.

Only a wish or a miracle can restore former alignment, and the affected individual does not make any attempt to return to the former alignment. (In fact, he views the prospect with horror and avoids it in any way possible.) If a character of a class with an alignment requirement is affected, an atonement spell is needed as well if the curse is to be obliterated. When a helm of opposite alignment has functioned once, it loses its magical properties.

Tyger
2007-06-05, 09:03 PM
OK folks... these are trees.... this is a forest. Don't miss one ok?

Sorry to be snide, but I have stated repeatedly that the main, in fact sole, purpose of this thread was to get ideas about how to contain a part member who wolfs out. That's the sum total of my request. A discussion of how to cure lycanthropy, as well as a discussion on the RAW of lycanthropy is secondary, and quite honestly, irrelevant.

While I thank you for your insights into how to cure it, or how its supposed to work... they are irrelevant. I am not sure at this time how our DM is using it. That's why I didn't just go ahead and try to cure him, or start talking about how to cure him, or just out and out kill him. My character simply needs to be able to contain him, for now. End of story.

Those of you who read my actual question, and have made suggestions (some of them are really great!) - thanks. You've very likely saved his character several ignoble and embarrassing beatings. :smallbiggrin:

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-06-05, 09:34 PM
Easiest way to contain a guy that has wolfed out is to make sure he doesn't wolf out, hence all the suggestions to get him cured ASAP.

Now then, some things you can do when your buddy goes fuzzy:

Solid Fog. 4th level spell, no save, no SR, and he's slowed down to EITHER a 5' move OR a single attack.

Slow. Again, take your pick of either a move OR a SINGLE attack, no full attack available. This one is only 3rd level, and you can hit other critters with it too. Will save, but should still be not as bad as his reflex save.

Glitterdust. Another will save or be blind, this one only 2nd level

Protection from Evil. When he wolfs out, he becomes evil, right? Fine, congratulations, you can't attack me with your natural attacks. Have a nice day.

Remove Curse. It's a 4th level spell, you should have it by now. It completely gets rid of lycanthropy. Use it and be done with the problem.

Rainbow Pattern. Again takes advantage of their lower will save to facinate him. This one you can actually maintain all night long if you want.

DreadArchon
2007-06-05, 09:40 PM
Those of you who read my actual question, and have made suggestions (some of them are really great!) - thanks. You've very likely saved his character several ignoble and embarrassing beatings.
I still advise beatings. :smalltongue:

Tyger
2007-06-05, 09:51 PM
Solid Fog. 4th level spell, no save, no SR, and he's slowed down to EITHER a 5' move OR a single attack.

Slow. Again, take your pick of either a move OR a SINGLE attack, no full attack available. This one is only 3rd level, and you can hit other critters with it too. Will save, but should still be not as bad as his reflex save.

Glitterdust. Another will save or be blind, this one only 2nd level

All good ideas.


Protection from Evil. When he wolfs out, he becomes evil, right? Fine, congratulations, you can't attack me with your natural attacks. Have a nice day.

Sorry, doesn't work that way. Prot. fr. X only prevent summoned creatures of that alignment from using natural attacks.


Remove Curse. It's a 4th level spell, you should have it by now. It completely gets rid of lycanthropy. Use it and be done with the problem.

Yup, already planning that if the DM doesn't have other ideas about the alignment and control of the situation.


Rainbow Pattern. Again takes advantage of their lower will save to facinate him. This one you can actually maintain all night long if you want.

Another good one. Could always use this to lure him away as well, getting the rest of the party to safety. Nice call on that one.