Level 20 character vs Satima/One Punch Man

[The Vagabond]

So, with this, I have a question for the playground: You are tasked with killing a character known as Satima. Satima is a commoner of infinite level, with Infinite physical stats, an infinite will save, is considered mythic for things that only affect mythic creatures, Epic for things that only affect epic creatures, and to have a divine rank of 21 for things that only affect creatures of a certain divine rank. He has Infinite HP, and infinite DR/-. He does not fail automatically one a 1. His to hit is infinite, as is his damage. He has a Int of 13, a wisdom of 9, and a charisma of 5. He has infinite ranks in Jump, Tumble, and Escape Artist and a speed of 400 feet. He has Evasion for Will Saves.

What can a level 20 character do to kill this monster? Not defeat, but permanently kill?

R1: 3.5 materials only.

R2: 3.5 with 3.0 and Pathfinder.

R3: The wizard gains mythic tiers. At what Tier can he kill him?

R4: The Wizard gains divine ranks, in addition to 10 mythic ranks. At what Rank can the Wizard kill him?

Trap the Soul:

Use Archmage to get rid of the Focus component, when he touches the "Nothing," his souls is stored in "Nothing", meaning it no longer exsists.
Optimized Shades, so it's 100% real, so no escape via force of Will, Trigger Object Method replicated, hand him the shadow gem, bluff into accepting trigger object, use the gem to make a bicycle, soul is used, he's dead.

Kill the Parents.
Trap, then Water:

Make Forcecage Permanant, or surround him with shaped walls of force. Use a Decanter of Endless water to lock him down. Wait until there's too much water for him to survive in. Wait 1 billion years until he dies or the water forms a black hole.

Kill everyone he loves until he dies of despair.
Wish for Sphere of Anniahlation right on top of him.
Use the Yuan-Ti brew to turn him into a broodguard.
Lure him into Pandorym's prison.
irresistible spell necrotic cyst irresistible spell necrotic termination?
Drive him mad in his dreams

[Beheld]

So the character has infinite HD, so Holy Word can't do anything. Has infinite AC, so anything with a to hit roll misses. Has infinite on all three saves, so anything with a save fails, has infinite HP, so anything that does HP damage fails, Has immunity to everything except HP damage and HD effects, because **** you.

Spoiler alert, the answer is nothing. Until you let them be a God, and then they can just make up and cast the spell "kill stupid idea, no save" and then he dies from anywhere in the universe.

Also limiting it to Wizard 20 is stupid.

Also, your statement that he has "godlike" immunities is meaningless. God immunities depend on Divine Rank.

I guess since things now have infinite HD, even though that it literally incoherent you can wish for a gem of infinite value and the cast trap the soul and win. Except you can't, because a gem of infinite value is incoherent, just like infinite HD. But that is a problem with the poor throught process put into the challenge than anything else.

EDIT: Nevermind, you just become an Archmage and choose trap the soul as your SLA, and then you have no focus component for trap the soul, so when he touches the nothing that you use as a trigger, his soul is trapped in the gem. Of course, none of this works if he has 6 Divine Ranks, but it does if he has 1-5.

Also, "evasion" for will saves is meaningless. Because Evasion only applies to Ref/Half effects, and there are no Will/Half effects, there are Will/Partial effects.

[Tvtyrant]

Permanent forcecage makes him useless forever, then place a permanent shaped wall of force around a decanter of endless water on full blast and have it inside the cage. Within a few billion years it will become a black hole and he will die.

Or teleport through time to his parents childhoods and commit murder.

[Beheld]

Since force cage not a valid target for permanency and walls of force can only be made vertically, no sure how you permanently trap someone who can jump over anything or burrow through anything.

[Jack_Simth]

So, with this, I have a question for the playground: You are tasked with killing a character known as Satima. Satima is a commoner of infinite level, with Infinite physical stats, an infinite will save, is considered mythic, epic, and considered to have 21 divine ranks for the purpose of your opposition trying to attack him, has Infinite HP, and infinite DR/-. He does not fail automatically one a 1. His to hit is infinite, as is his damage. He has a Int of 13, a wisdom of 9, and a charisma of 5. He has infinite ranks in Jump, Tumble, and Escape Artist and a speed of 400 feet. He has Evasion for Will Saves.

What can a level 20 character do to kill this monster? Not defeat, but permanently kill?

R1: 3.5 materials only.

R2: 3.5 with 3.0 and Pathfinder.

R3: The wizard gains mythic tiers. At what Tier can he kill him?

R4: The Wizard gains divine ranks, in addition to 10 mythic ranks. At what Rank can the Wizard kill him?
Quoting, as you appear to edit based on feedback.

Optimize Shades, so it's at least 20% more real than normal (putting it at 100%, so that Evasion for will has no effect). This is straightforward, and is left as an exercise to the reader.

Use Shades to duplicate Trap the Soul, using the trigger object method to avoid the save (you'll need to research Satima's True Name). Shades doesn't need the material component, so his specific HD count is irrelevant.

Bluff him into accepting the trigger object (He's got a Sense Motive of -1, so this shouldn't be too hard even with some skill bonuses from Divine Ranks and Mythic tier - Moment of Prescience is good for +CL Insight on the opposed check, Limited Wish up some Glibness for +30 untyped, and maybe limited wish up an Improvisation for a quick +10 Luck as well... plus any cross-class ranks and Charisma bonus that the wizard might have - this is simple skill optimization), and now his soul is stuck in a shadow gem.

Use the shadow gem containing his soul as an optional material component in a spell. Soul is consumed, he's very very dead.

[Aegis013]

Take some levels of Spellguard of the Silverymoon, find a way to get Transcend Mortality added to your list and trick him into letting you touch him with the spell.

Last one is the weakest part of the plan. The spell will kill him, but if he is suspicious of you, it'll be impossible. Though in the manga, he often just takes hits since he can't take damage, so I imagine his touch AC might actually be low unless he got serious.

[Tvtyrant]

Since force cage not a valid target for permanency and walls of force can only be made vertically, no sure how you permanently trap someone who can jump over anything or burrow through anything.

Shaped wall of force should do it. If not then stronghold builders guide, build a wall of force covered cube, put the decanter in the cube, wait for it to destroy the planet.

[Jack_Simth]

Though in the manga, he often just takes hits since he can't take damage, so I imagine his touch AC might actually be low unless he got serious.
"Infinite physical stats". For this exercise, his dex is "all of it", which means his touch AC is "Neener neener"

[MilleniaAntares]

Research an epic level spell to summon Power-Man, the Most Powerful Man in Fiction.

Or figure out what the hell is giving him his powers, and use it to stop that power source, or take it for yourself.

Or just kill all that he knows and loves and hope he will eventually fall to despair.

[Inevitability]

Ice Assassin him! Which brings us to the age-old question: what happens when a monster with infinite HP takes infinite damage?

Also, you can Wish for a Sphere of Annihilation to appear in his location.

Or perhaps just hit him with an Irresistable (KoK) Implosion.

Or Bluff him into drinking the concotion Yuan-Ti use to make broodguards. If he succeeds on the DC 16 fortitude saving throw... he dies.

Or lure him to Pandorym's prison, covering it with illusions so that it seems like an ordinary wall. Now create an illusion of yourself walking through the wall. If he touches the prison, he is either disintegrated or erased from existence altogether.

[Psyren]

"Infinite physical stats". For this exercise, his dex is "all of it", which means his touch AC is "Neener neener"

Right, but Aegis is also correct - he has a tendency to tank hits, which means he might allow himself to be touched.

Do we know if he can ignore magic, or if that might be a possible achilles heel? What about mental attacks?

[Beheld]

Right, but Aegis is also correct - he has a tendency to tank hits, which means he might allow himself to be touched.

Do we know if he can ignore magic, or if that might be a possible achilles heel? What about mental attacks?

Well for the purposes of this scenario he is at least immune to mind affecting effects, anything with a will save, ability damage, ability drain, and energy drain. So that covers... every single mental attack in the game.

[stanprollyright]

Why? This is a pointless thought experiment that shouldn't even be called an experiment because the conclusion is foregone.

[The Vagabond]

Right, but Aegis is also correct - he has a tendency to tank hits, which means he might allow himself to be touched.

Do we know if he can ignore magic, or if that might be a possible achilles heel? What about mental attacks?
I know he treats magic as any other physical attack. But I do know he has resisted mind affecting affects.

To be fair, I probably shouldn't have given him mental evasion- He has been shown in the Webcomic to be affected by psychic attacks, but the effects were miniscule compared to the intended effect. It was intended to literally rip him apart, atom by atom. Instead it just made his muscle twitch. So he's still affected by stuff that has an effect on a succeeded save.

And he isn't actually immune to mind-affecting effects. Just has a +Infinity will save.


Why? This is a pointless thought experiment that shouldn't even be called an experiment because the conclusion is foregone.Not for me, actually. A lot of neat ideas I never thought of, and a sizable number of solutions to the problem at hand.
D&D, nothing is impossible.

[Hal0Badger]

Right, but Aegis is also correct - he has a tendency to tank hits, which means he might allow himself to be touched.

Do we know if he can ignore magic, or if that might be a possible achilles heel? What about mental attacks?

Sorry, but I don't think this is a healthy thought progress.

OP defined a "Satima" of his own, with 3.5 rules. This is not the manga "Saitama". You cannot go from one to another as you wish.

If you are dealing with OP defined version, it has infinite dex, therefore infinite touch AC. There is no reason for him not to use it.

For manga Saitama, his exact powers are unknown. Nothing so far harmed him, nor he did not need to punch a guy more than once, and yes I know there is a guy who survived a single punch, but Saitama went light on him for the first impact. Therefore trying to create him in 3.5 rules are meaningless, because he does not have a clear definition even in his own universe (it might be related to that it is a god-damn-parody.)

For 3.5 created (flawed) version, I am sure if you think hard enough you can come up with something, but I find this thought progress unnecessary to apply.

P.S: Eventhough I frigging love OPM so far, people really should stop taking Saitama seriously. It is a parody of guys like Goku or Superman.

[The Vagabond]

P.S: Eventhough I frigging love OPM so far, people really should stop taking Saitama seriously. It is a parody of guys like Goku or Superman.
Yeah, I know, but the idea here is, mostly, to just see if it's physically possible to do so, and the creative solutions for this. I'm just using One Punch Man because he's slightly more limited than Superman or Goku in his powers (No flight, primarily, but also far, FAR fewer secondary abilities to pull out of his rear. Just an infinitely strong punch, being incredibly fast, and being unlimitedly tough) and the fact that he inspired this idea.

[Nifft]

Strategy to beat One Punch Man:

- Buff up your Diplomacy and Bluff checks, especially Diplomacy.
- Prepare the spell Hero's Feast.
- Don't be evil.

Tactics:

- Offer Saitama a discount on dinner via Hero's Feast.
- Offer Saitama a discount on future meals if he doesn't kill you.

[Anlashok]

irresistible spell necrotic cyst irresistible spell necrotic termination?

[Beheld]

And he isn't actually immune to mind-affecting effects. Just has a +Infinity will save.

You gave him immunities as if he was godlike. All gods are immune to mind affecting effects as one of the many things they get for free for DR 1, so if you don't want him immune to those, you should change other things too.

EDIT: Oh wait, you went back and gave him 21 Divine Ranks... Because you got mad that someone beat him so you retroactively added abilities so that he can't be beaten. Yeah, you are officially the worst. This thread is now double worthless instead of just the single worthless it was before you started retroactively negating successful tactics.


irresistible spell necrotic cyst irresistible spell necrotic termination?

Doesn't that just add +10 to the DC after errata, and therefore completely worthless?

[Telonius]

Does this bad boy sleep?


Alternatively, a curse or punishment might involve a limited number of nightmares rather than an ongoing plague. If the bestowing entity is powerful enough, the events of these nightmares might bleed over into reality—for example, the character might take actual wounds if he is injured in the dream. If you prefer that dreams deal mental damage only, the character takes 1 point of Wisdom or Charisma damage for every 10 points of damage dealt within the nightmare. If he reaches 0 in either, he begins to go mad (see above). Bestowing this sort of nightmare requires an extremely potent force, such as a deity or perhaps a caster with access to wish or miracle.

[The Vagabond]

You gave him immunities as if he was godlike. All gods are immune to mind affecting effects as one of the many things they get for free for DR 1, so if you don't want him immune to those, you should change other things too.

EDIT: Oh wait, you went back and gave him 21 Divine Ranks... Because you got mad that someone beat him so you retroactively added abilities so that he can't be beaten. Yeah, you are officially the worst. This thread is now useless.
No- I meant, for effects that say "Non-Mythic creatures have no save" or similar things, he is considered Mythic, or, in this case, to have a Divine Rank of 21. I'll try to edit it to make it make sense. As it is, I do not believe I negated any tactics with my edits.

And look, it's not worthless: There has come up a full DOZEN of proposals for how to actually get it to work: So, in this case, it is not worthless at all, as I have stated above.

[Beheld]

No- I meant, for effects that say "Non-Mythic creatures have no save" or similar things, he is considered Mythic, or, in this case, to have a Divine Rank of 21. I'll try to edit it to make it make sense.

And look, it's not worthless: There has come up DOZEN of proposals for how to actually get it to work: So, in this case, it is not worthless at all, as I have stated above.

Except that if he has 21 Divine Ranks then you are wrong. Divine Rank 1 makes him immune to ability damage, energy drain, ability drain, and mind affecting effects. Divine Rank 6 makes him immune to trap the soul, which negates two of the solutions.

Divine Rank 21 means that he has 21 Salient Divine Abilities. It means he has abilities to see the future. It doesn't matter how many successful methods there are to solve the problem (especially because several of them are not valid, like the Wall of Force one) if you retroactively change the character to be immune to each successful version.

[Beheld]

Now that you have removed diefic immunities, take leadership, have a Psion Cohort. Have him manifest EgoWhip to knock him out. Cast Wall of Stone to create a basin, cast Wish to summon a bunch of water, drown him while your Psion manifests Ego Whip every round (have him use infinite PP bull**** #30). Also you can metamagic Mindfrost until you burn out his Int. Or just cast it over and over while he fails to do anything to you. Whatever.

[The Vagabond]

Except that if he has 21 Divine Ranks then you are wrong. Divine Rank 1 makes him immune to ability damage, energy drain, ability drain, and mind affecting effects. Divine Rank 6 makes him immune to trap the soul, which negates two of the solutions.

Divine Rank 21 means that he has 21 Salient Divine Abilities. It means he has abilities to see the future. It doesn't matter how many successful methods there are to solve the problem (especially because several of them are not valid, like the Wall of Force one) if you retroactively change the character to be immune to each successful version.
my apologies, I didn't mean to give him literal divine ranks, I MEANT to give him stuff so that effects that he can prevent "Creatures without Divine Ranks get no Save" like effects (I'm not too familiar with Salient Abilities, but I remember a few to that effect in there), NOT to give him the listed immunities. I intended ONLY to do this so that, in the listed round 4, the character couldn't just go "I'm a God! ZAP PUNNY MORTAL!" and end it (Primarily because I wanted more interesting solutions).

My apologies for the misinformation provided.

Also, Evasion for Will Saves. Also, I have removed the class limit a while ago (Good recommendation).

[Beheld]

Also, Evasion for Will Saves. Also, I have removed the class limit a while ago (Good recommendation).

You said he didn't get Evasion for will saves earlier too. Even if you changed your mind, Mindfrost does the same thing. If he isn't immune to ability damage, you can just kill him by dropping his scores until he can take no actions.

[ben-zayb]

Requirements:

Diplomacy: Yes
Surge of Fortune spell
Transcend Mortality spell
Spellguard of Silverymoon prestige class


Method:

pre-cast Surge of Fortune
cast Transcend Mortality on OPM using Spellguard, discharging Surge of Fortune for an auto-hit
use Diplomancy to convince OPM that his soul finally needs to rest for good (i.e. it will refuse all Rez attempts)



Doesn't that just add +10 to the DC after errata, and therefore completely worthless?Errata isn't 1st party from what I hear.

[Rubik]

Take some levels of Spellguard of the Silverymoon, find a way to get Transcend Mortality added to your list and trick him into letting you touch him with the spell.Also, spellblade of Transcend Mortality. Redirect it to him.

[Beheld]

Limited Wish yourself 10 times to automatically hit on your next ten attacks.

Cast Ray of Stupidity, Split Rayed, Twinned, Maximized, Empowered, use a staff if you need to. Use a Belt of Battle, Do it again. Hit on all your touch attacks. Leave him unconscious, make basin, fill with water.

[Rubik]

Limited Wish yourself 10 times to automatically hit on your next ten attacks.

Cast Ray of Stupidity, Split Rayed, Twinned, Maximized, Empowered, use a staff if you need to. Use a Belt of Battle, Do it again. Hit on all your touch attacks. Leave him unconscious, make basin, fill with water.Not water. Transmute Rock to Mud, toss him in, and Transmute Mud to Rock.

The water will evaporate eventually, after all.

[Aleolus]

People, the solution to this is simple. You can solve it with a single Wish spell; "I wish for Punpun to come and destroy you"

[Beheld]

Not water. Transmute Rock to Mud, toss him in, and Transmute Mud to Rock.

The water will evaporate eventually, after all.

Actually, because of the dumb infinite stats incoherent nonsense, he can never fail a suffocation effect ever, so you basically just pick any spell in the world that kills people, and since he is unconscious, he is willing, and he doesn't get a save and he dies.

[Rubik]

Be a shaper psion with access to the Quintessence power and (Greater) Fabricate.

Use a scroll of Sanctum Spell Shades to emulate a Sanctum Spell arcane Genesis created from shadow to make a demiplane that's made of (and filled with) quintessence.

Fabricate a wondrous-looking and very large swimming pool/hot tub and fill it with quintessence. Make it look absolutely awesome, like it's the Bathtub of the Gods.

Buff your Bluff and convince him that the swimming pool is filled with magic divine water and that it would be a fantastic way to relax after a hard day of one-punching things. It'll give him all sorts of benefits, like eternal youth so long as he fully immerses himself once a year, or something. "It's like dunking yourself in liquid love extracted from ambrosia."

He dives in, encasing himself in quintessence, thereby removing him from the time stream entirely.

Reach in (without immersing yourself) and slip a hand of glory with a +1 spellblade poison ring on it that makes him immune to targeted Gate, Wish, and Miracle spells (+6,000 gp each), as well as any other calling spells that might affect him, so he can't be called elsewhere. Not necessarily needed, but we're being paranoid, here.

Use a scroll of Gate to open a portal to the Shades demiplane you created and push his temporally displaced body through.

Disjunction on the Shades demiplane.

Now he's gone forever.

[Rubik]

Actually, because of the dumb infinite stats incoherent nonsense, he can never fail a suffocation effect ever, so you basically just pick any spell in the world that kills people, and since he is unconscious, he is willing, and he doesn't get a save and he dies.Unconscious people don't forgo saves; they just count as willing for spells and effects that require a willing participant.

Speaking of, convince him to be a willing participant of a power you manifest and affect him with the Fusion power. Or knock him unconscious and do the same. Now manifest Astral Seed quickly via Link Power, say, and immediately manifest an insta-death power on yourself and forgo the saving throw. Now you (and he) dies, and when you come back, you're permanently fused together, with you in control.

[Psyren]

I know he treats magic as any other physical attack. But I do know he has resisted mind affecting affects.

To be fair, I probably shouldn't have given him mental evasion- He has been shown in the Webcomic to be affected by psychic attacks, but the effects were miniscule compared to the intended effect. It was intended to literally rip him apart, atom by atom. Instead it just made his muscle twitch. So he's still affected by stuff that has an effect on a succeeded save.

And he isn't actually immune to mind-affecting effects. Just has a +Infinity will save.

That sounds like a psychic attack that was actually trying to do something physical to him, i.e. tear his body apart. Of course he'd be able to resist that - if anything, it was a fortitude save.

Has anyone tried mentally dominating him, or confusing him, or putting him to sleep? Anything that would not, in any way, act on his muscles, as that would be a non-starter?

[Beheld]

Unconscious people don't forgo saves; they just count as willing for spells and effects that require a willing participant.


A creature can voluntarily forgo a saving throw and willingly accept a spell's result.

And by counting as willing, they forgo saves, so he forgos the save on Finger of Death.

[Rubik]

And by counting as willing, they forgo saves, so he forgos the save on Finger of Death.Note the context of the line from the SRD:


Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you’re flat-footed or it isn’t your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.

[Beheld]

So? Unconscious creatures are willing. Willing creatures accept the results of a spell without a saving throw.

[danelsan]

And by counting as willing, they forgo saves, so he forgos the save on Finger of Death.

Read again the post you quoted:


Unconscious people don't forgo saves; they just count as willing for spells and effects that require a willing participant.

Does Finger of Death REQUIRES a willing participant? In what universe?

[Beheld]

Read again the post you quoted

He claimed that. It isn't true. The rule states:

"Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing[.]"

"A creature can voluntarily forgo a saving throw and willingly accept a spell's result."

So willing creatures forego the save on finger of death. The rule about unconscious creatures being willing is not limited by the other sentence with a different rule about spells that require a willing target.

[Tvtyrant]

Wait, would destroying everything else count as destroying him? Like, it locking him in an empty demiplane counts, does emptying the prime material of everything? Especially as he cannot plane shift?

[Randomguy]

Take some levels of Spellguard of the Silverymoon, find a way to get Transcend Mortality added to your list and trick him into letting you touch him with the spell.

Last one is the weakest part of the plan. The spell will kill him, but if he is suspicious of you, it'll be impossible. Though in the manga, he often just takes hits since he can't take damage, so I imagine his touch AC might actually be low unless he got serious.

This, but take archmage + arcane reach as part of the build to make it a reach spell, and there's a cleric spell, surge of fortune, with 1 round/ level duration that you can discharge to make your next roll a natural 20. You could get a scroll of that.

You'd need Foresight as a prebuff when fighting him, too, so you can cast celerity and go first despite his +infinity initiative bonus.

[MisterKaws]

Call the Sarrukh
Do stuff till you're also on infinity OP stats
???
Profit!

[Beheld]

This, but take archmage + arcane reach as part of the build to make it a reach spell, and there's a cleric spell, surge of fortune, with 1 round/ level duration that you can discharge to make your next roll a natural 20. You could get a scroll of that.

You'd need Foresight as a prebuff when fighting him, too, so you can cast celerity and go first despite his +infinity initiative bonus.

Honestly, you can just cast invisibility to get a surprise round. He has no detection methods for anything.

[ekarney]

People, the solution to this is simple. You can solve it with a single Wish spell; "I wish for Punpun to come and destroy you"

Actually, there's a flaw here (iirc) Pun Pun only has nigh-infinite stats, not actually infinite, which is how the Omniscificer (Spelling?) beats him, by having actual infinite stats.

Also, drinking Mordayn from BoVD results in instant death, no saves, no damage numbers, you just die.

Also in order to find out how to kill him, we need to know where his infinite AC comes from, is it just a massive touch AC? Is his armour material or magical? I'm assuming his infinite saves come from

I wonder if there's any way to force him to become undead or something, then cast some sort of fort save or die that affects objects on him. Or at least that's his infinite health gone, since otherwise he's a level 20 commoner with 20 commoner hit die and no Con bonus, if his sole source of AC is his Dex then we just gotta hit him flat footed, if it's Dex and an armour bonus from a non-magical armour, ie plate armour that for some reason provide +NaN instead of +8 then we just need to catch him flatfooted with a Brilliant Energy weapon.

Actually, if we can remove his Dex AND Con then we can just sand blaster him to death.

The hardest part of this isn't the infinite everything, it's finding out the source of it so that we can negate it.
I'm not gonna lie, if it's semi-rules legal it's possible.

OH I JUST REALISED
Expanding on the Mordayn idea,
Saitama's whole deal in the manga is finding the ultimate challenge am I right? It shouldn't be too hard to convince him that surviving a cup of Mordayn is the ultimate challenge.

[ben-zayb]

Pun Pun only has nigh-infinite stats, not actually infinite, which is how the Omniscificer (Spelling?) beats him, by having actual infinite stats.You're welcome (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2705.0).

[Beheld]

Or at least that's his infinite health gone, since otherwise he's a level 20 commoner with 20 commoner hit die and no Con bonus, if his sole source of AC is his Dex then we just gotta hit him flat footed, if it's Dex and an armour bonus from a non-magical armour, ie plate armour that for some reason provide +NaN instead of +8 then we just need to catch him flatfooted with a Brilliant Energy weapon.

Actually, he has infinite HD, since otherwise we could just Holy Word him to death. But you are right, his infinite AC only comes from Dex, so Cast Greater Invisibility, Fire Split Rayed Twinned Rays of Stupidity, don't even need Limited Wish at all. Can probably do this with a level 7 character with sufficient feats being Embraced and Shunned. Then Phantasmal Killer for the finish.

[Psyren]

I believe Omniscifier beats PP by anticipating how he'll ascend and countering it. If PP has already ascended there isn't much he can do.

But back to Saitama - we see him cooking and going to the grocery store so apparently he needs to eat - what happens if he doesn't? Can you imprison him somewhere until he starves?

[ben-zayb]

I believe Omniscifier beats PP by anticipating how he'll ascend and countering it. If PP has already ascended there isn't much he can do.

But back to Saitama - we see him cooking and going to the grocery store so apparently he needs to eat - what happens if he doesn't? Can you imprison him somewhere until he starves?
I meant PP has actual infinite stats, aside from NIs.

I think that amount of DvR means no need to sleep/breathe. My first plan was supposedly to drown that dude, after all.

[Crake]

He may have inifinite AC, but a natural 20 is still an auto hit. Attack him with a vorpal weapon with Surge of Fortune (attack roll is treated as a natural 20), then 5% of the time you will roll a natural 20 on the crit confirm and chop off his head, no save, just dead. Or, if you want to make sure it happens, have a contingent surge of fortune triggered to activate when your first surge of fortune ends, be a ruby knight vindicator, and burn turns to activate the second surge of fortune (takes a swift action to activate) for a second auto-20. 100% chance of dead.

[Beheld]

He may have inifinite AC, but a natural 20 is still an auto hit. Attack him with a vorpal weapon with Surge of Fortune (attack roll is treated as a natural 20), then 5% of the time you will roll a natural 20 on the crit confirm and chop off his head, no save, just dead. Or, if you want to make sure it happens, have a contingent surge of fortune triggered to activate when your first surge of fortune ends, be a ruby knight vindicator, and burn turns to activate the second surge of fortune (takes a swift action to activate) for a second auto-20. 100% chance of dead.

"To find out if it’s a critical hit, you immediately make a critical roll—another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made. If the critical roll also results in a hit against the target’s AC, your original hit is a critical hit."

The position that a second 20 confirms the crit does not seem likely. Also, I recommend being invisible, such that you hit his AC anyway, because his AC is 10 when he is flat footed. Also it would be nice for you if he didn't win init with his infinit init, and then move adjacent to you and punch you for infinite damage.

[ben-zayb]

"To find out if it’s a critical hit, you immediately make a critical roll—another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made. If the critical roll also results in a hit against the target’s AC, your original hit is a critical hit."

The position that a second 20 confirms the crit does not seem likely. Also, I recommend being invisible, such that you hit his AC anyway, because his AC is 10 when he is flat footed. Also it would be nice for you if he didn't win init with his infinit init, and then move adjacent to you and punch you for infinite damage.

Infinite initiative is pointless against someone who abuses action economy and acts on anyone's turn anyway

[ShurikVch]

Illithid can eat Saitama's brain - no Save, just Die
Infinite AC works only until Illithid roll 20
Persisted Timeless Body (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timelessBody.htm) will ensure Saitama wouldn't do something dangerous while Illithid rolling

Also, infinite Saves work just until he rolls 1

[Thurbane]

In regards to rendering him flat footed, use Surge of Fortune to hit him with an Eggshell Grenade (Dust) to render him blind for 1d4 rounds, no save (unless there is something in OP stat block that gives immunity to blindness). Or better yet, if he is evil, the Blinding Glory spell (BoED) is a no save blindness effect, 100 ft radius centred on caster.

Could you Bluff him into not resisting a lethal spell (making him think it is something beneficial) and therefore foregoing his saving throw?

Bluff him into accepting a Painless Death spell (Ghostwalk)? Or render him unconscious so he is considered willing?

Amber Sarcophagus spell (requires a to hit roll, so you'd need Surge of Fortune) traps him without a save, 1/day level. You could take the whole sarcophagus to some remote, inhospitable plane and just leave it there until the spell wears off -this isn't actually killing him, though. Could you use that time to make some kind of prison out of riverine? Or maybe just dump the sarcophagus, with him inside, into a Sphere of Annihilation.

Could you cast Transcend Mortality on him through a Spellsword's Channel ability?

[Crake]

"To find out if it’s a critical hit, you immediately make a critical roll—another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made. If the critical roll also results in a hit against the target’s AC, your original hit is a critical hit."

The position that a second 20 confirms the crit does not seem likely. Also, I recommend being invisible, such that you hit his AC anyway, because his AC is 10 when he is flat footed. Also it would be nice for you if he didn't win init with his infinit init, and then move adjacent to you and punch you for infinite damage.

A natural 20 on an attack roll is a hit regardless of AC. A crit confirm roll is simply another attack roll, and doesn't have any special rules saying that a natural 20 is not an auto confirm. So yes, vorpal weapons have a 1/400 chance to auto kill any creature regardless of AC as long as it can be decapitated.


Also, infinite Saves work just until he rolls 1

I believe the OP says he doesn't fail on a 1.

[Beheld]

A natural 20 on an attack roll is a hit regardless of AC. A crit confirm roll is simply another attack roll, and doesn't have any special rules saying that a natural 20 is not an auto confirm.

I just quoted the rule for confirming crit, and that is not guaranteed. To confirm a crit, you have to hit against the targets AC, not hit regardless of AC.

Again, I'm not sure why you are so committed to Surge of Fortune twice + Ruby Knight Vindicator. Any Cleric with the Trickery Domain can just cast Surge of Fortune, cast invisibility, walk up to him, and then attack his flat footed AC of 10. Then you can expend Surge of Fortune to auto 20, and then hit his AC of 10, and then cut off his head.

Hell, any level 10 Commoner with Ring of Spell Storing, a Vorpal Sword, and a Ring of Invisibility can duplicate your kill method by paying a cleric to cast Surge of Fortune into his ring and then polymorph him into anything with Strength 18 or higher.

[Crake]

I just quoted the rule for confirming crit, and that is not guaranteed. To confirm a crit, you have to hit against the targets AC, not hit regardless of AC.

Again, I'm not sure why you are so committed to Surge of Fortune twice + Ruby Knight Vindicator. Any Cleric with the Trickery Domain can just cast Surge of Fortune, cast invisibility, walk up to him, and then attack his flat footed AC of 10. Then you can expend Surge of Fortune to auto 20, and then hit his AC of 10, and then cut off his head.

Hell, any level 10 Commoner with Ring of Spell Storing, a Vorpal Sword, and a Ring of Invisibility can duplicate your kill method by paying a cleric to cast Surge of Fortune into his ring and then polymorph him into anything with Strength 18 or higher.

Does your ruling also mean that a natural 1 on a crit confirm roll is not an auto fail? The crit roll is an attack roll, and the rule on natural 20s says "A natural 20 is always a hit", and "A natural 1 is always a miss". So your natural 20 might not meet the target's AC, but it's still a hit, as normal. And a natural 1 is still a miss. So your method has a 5% chance of failure when you roll a natural 1 on your crit confirm.

To clarify, the rule says "Hit vs the target's AC". Since a natural 20 is always a hit, it doesn't matter, 2 natural 20s auto confirm.

[Platymus Pus]

So, with this, I have a question for the playground: You are tasked with killing a character known as Satima. Satima is a commoner of infinite level, with Infinite physical stats, an infinite will save, is considered mythic for things that only affect mythic creatures, Epic for things that only affect epic creatures, and to have a divine rank of 21 for things that only affect creatures of a certain divine rank. He has Infinite HP, and infinite DR/-. He does not fail automatically one a 1. His to hit is infinite, as is his damage. He has a Int of 13, a wisdom of 9, and a charisma of 5. He has infinite ranks in Jump, Tumble, and Escape Artist and a speed of 400 feet. He has Evasion for Will Saves.

What can a level 20 character do to kill this monster? Not defeat, but permanently kill?


First off, Saitama isn't that strong.
Second off just using the actual Saitama the answer is none. Providing there is no prep.
He's just too damn fast even for normal epic characters. So the answer is none if you're going by normal play.

[Beheld]

Does your ruling also mean that a natural 1 on a crit confirm roll is not an auto fail? The crit roll is an attack roll, and the rule on natural 20s says "A natural 20 is always a hit", and "A natural 1 is always a miss". So your natural 20 might not meet the target's AC, but it's still a hit, as normal. And a natural 1 is still a miss. So your method has a 5% chance of failure when you roll a natural 1 on your crit confirm.

To clarify, the rule says "Hit vs the target's AC". Since a natural 20 is always a hit, it doesn't matter, 2 natural 20s auto confirm.

No, the rule doesn't say "Hit vs the target's AC" it says "If the critical roll also results in a hit against the target’s AC" that could be argued to allow a natural 20 that "hits" all possible ACs as a confirm, but that is certainly not the only possible way to understand. "If the critical roll also results in a hit against the target’s AC" could also very easily mean that failing to hit against the AC, regardless of whether you would hit for some other reason, is a failure. In particular, your version would require additional miss chance rolls for concealment, which sounds crazy.

[Acanous]

since irresistible spell is on the table, Irresistible Phantasmal Killer.

[Bucky]

Hitting or touching Satima is as easy as catching him flat-footed. Which can easily happen despite his huge initiative bonus by, say, attacking from invisibility or stealth.

[Rubik]

since irresistible spell is on the table, Irresistible Phantasmal Killer.That feat was nerfed in the errata to a +10 to DCs.

[Beheld]

Yes, let's repeat the silly irresistible spell conversation we already have while someone informs us that he can be caught flat footed to lower his AC. Because none of that was already covered.

[gooddragon1]

Let's go with RAW stupidity

Time Stop
A whole buch of Widened Solid Fog spells.
Shapechange into an Allip
I don't think his wisdom is that good.
Cast limited wish on yourself before attacking.


You are undetectable while time stop lasts.

the solid fog is so thick that any creature attempting to move through it progresses at a speed of 5 feet, regardless of its normal speed

Wisdom Drain (Su)

An allip causes 1d4 points of Wisdom drain each time it hits with its incorporeal touch attack. On each such successful attack, it gains 5 temporary hit points.

Produce any other effect whose power level is in line with the above effects, such as a single creature automatically hitting on its next attack

Technically he could move while in time stop (though he's not supposed to be able to). However, because he can't move more than 5 feet in a round, he won't move. A whole bunch of fog cloud later and you have enough time to drain him. Just have a way of knowing where he is of course.
Assuming he has a wisdom of 10 (which could be generous)... 10 attacks later maximum and you are looking at him having 0 wisdom (he has mythic, epic, and d-ranks only for certain purposes as stated/not all purposes). Nothing in his entry says he can attack incorporeal creatures.

Now that he's at 0 wisdom, it's time to take a trip and take him with you... through astral projection (he's cool with it cuz he's willing).


Wisdom 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a deep sleep filled with nightmares, helpless



You plus one additional willing creature touched per two caster levels
...
While you are on the Astral Plane, your astral body is connected at all times to your physical body by a silvery cord. If the cord is broken, you are killed, astrally and physically. Luckily, very few things can destroy a silver cord.

If you can get a silver sword...

The normally insubstantial cord is treated as a tangible object with the owner’s AC, hardness 10, and 20 hit points.
...you'll have your work "cut" out for you :D.

I make the assumption that everyone in the spell is connected by a silver cord. I don't actually know though.

Also, depending on whether or not you want to get really goofy, you might need to greater teleport while in the solid fog.

[Quertus]

I love the idea of using Absorb Strength on OPM to give yourself infinite Str. Place him at the edge of an antimagic field, so that he has no DR. Use your infinite to hit to hit his infinite AC (or just be hidden/invisible to hit his AC 10). Deal infinite damage to his infinite HP.

There are lots of other ways, but that one is the most fun I can come up with. :smallbiggrin:

[Rubik]

Be a StP erudite or a psion, ardent, wilder, or whatever with powers bought via Psychic Chirurgery from a StP erudite. Make yourself immune to death via HP damage by combining Delay Death and Beastland Ferocity, shared between yourself and your psicrystal. Share Affinity Field with your psicrystal and ping yourself with at least one point of damage. The damage affects you, spreads to everything in Affinity Field's AoE, hits your psicrystal, spreads to everything in its Affinity Field's AoE, affects you again, etc. etc., dealing infinite damage instantaneously and killing OPM immediately, no save.*




*Note that the save for Affinity Field only counts against powers manifested through Affinity Field, not direct damage.

[MisterKaws]

I love the idea of using Absorb Strength on OPM to give yourself infinite Str. Place him at the edge of an antimagic field, so that he has no DR. Use your infinite to hit to hit his infinite AC (or just be hidden/invisible to hit his AC 10). Deal infinite damage to his infinite HP.

There are lots of other ways, but that one is the most fun I can come up with. :smallbiggrin:

He's a Divine Rank 21, how do you plan on using any attribute-reducing effect when all of that is completely nullified by his divine abilities?

[gooddragon1]

He's a Divine Rank 21, how do you plan on using any attribute-reducing effect when all of that is completely nullified by his divine abilities?


is considered mythic for things that only affect mythic creatures ... and to have a divine rank of 21 for things that only affect creatures of a certain divine rank.

Not exactly.

I suspect he wants to avoid this:


Life And Death
Prerequisites

Divine rank 6, Gift of Life or Hand of Death salient divine ability.
Benefit

The deity designates any mortal and snuffs out its life. Or the deity can designate any dead mortal and restore it to life.
Notes

This ability works across planar boundaries and penetrates any barrier except a divine shield. However, the subject must be in a location the deity can sense, either within the deity’s sense range or in a location the deity can perceive through its remote sensing ability. If the deity cannot see the subject, the deity must unambiguously identify the subject in some fashion. If the deity chooses to kill a mortal, the ability works like the destruction spell, except that there is no material component or saving throw. The mortal cannot be raised or resurrected afterward, except by a deity of equal or higher rank using the Gift of Life or Life and Death salient divine ability.

If the deity restores life to a mortal, this ability works like the true resurrection spell, except that there is no material component and the amount of time the subject has been dead is irrelevant.

This ability cannot restore a creature to life against its will, but it can resurrect an elemental or outsider. It can resurrect a creature whose soul is trapped, provided the soul is not held by a deity of higher rank than the one using this ability.

This ability cannot restore life to a creature that has been slain by the Hand of Death, Life and Death, or Mass Life and Death ability of a deity with a higher rank.
Rest

After using either version of this ability, the deity must rest for 1 minute per level or Hit Die of the creature affected.

Deities whose portfolio includes death do not have to rest after using this ability.
Suggested Portfolio Elements

Death, supreme.

[Platymus Pus]

Antimagic wouldn't work, he's basically a monk.

[Rubik]

Antimagic wouldn't work, he's basically a monk.And monks lose practically everything they've got in an AMF. Granted, having divine ranks probably makes that a non-issue.

[gooddragon1]

And monks lose practically everything they've got in an AMF. Granted, having divine ranks probably makes that a non-issue.

+None of the first post paragraph stated those were Su or Sp abilities.
+He can be assumed to have divine ranks for the purpose of things that depend on him having divine ranks in their effects (so something that says mortals get no save or says you must have at least this many divine ranks to harm this thing), but he doesn't actually have them. That's basically how it reads to me. It actually sounds a bit like this: The tarrasque’s natural weapons are treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
+From what I'm seeing here (www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm), even if he did have ranks, they wouldn't preclude AMF.

[Misery Esquire]

1. Get him to stand under a ledge
2. Cast Reverse Gravity
3. Travel upward to the ledge yourself - ensure the ledge is wide enough to stand on (upside down), but thin enough to provoke a Balance check
4. Make your balance check
5. Use something akin to the PsiWarrior ability Stomp to attempt to knock him prone
6. Repeat until save failed, or if using something that doesn't need a save go to next step
7. Target is now "prone"
8. You're done.

Knocking someone prone immediately, and instantly, moves them to the nearest surface that will allow them to be prone on it, because you and he are standing on the ceiling, the nearest surface is ????? feet/miles/lightyears away. It is not relevant that he leaves the Reverse Gravity field, the condition is seeking a surface in the direction that he started "falling" in.

He's gone.

[Taelas]

He claimed that. It isn't true. The rule states:

"Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing[.]"

"A creature can voluntarily forgo a saving throw and willingly accept a spell's result."

So willing creatures forego the save on finger of death. The rule about unconscious creatures being willing is not limited by the other sentence with a different rule about spells that require a willing target.

It speaks of spells that are restricted to willing participants. If you are unconscious, you are considered a willing participant. A creature can also willingly forgo their save against any spell at all, but you do not forgo your save just because you are unconscious. Context is important.

[ZamielVanWeber]

That feat was nerfed in the errata to a +10 to DCs.

There is an errata document and that does not mention Irresistible Spell. The feat was re-printed unofficially in a later book, but the official version is still taking the save away entirely.

[Beheld]

It speaks of spells that are restricted to willing participants. If you are unconscious, you are considered a willing participant. A creature can also willingly forgo their save against any spell at all, but you do not forgo your save just because you are unconscious. Context is important.

Again, the rules is that unconscious creatures are willing, and willing creatures forego the save. The existence of a different rule in a different sentence that talks about willing participants does not erase the relevant rule.

[Platymus Pus]

And monks lose practically everything they've got in an AMF. Granted, having divine ranks probably makes that a non-issue.
You can't AMF his punches. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUtBRGHe3aE)
He doesn't even have to directly hit the level 20 character to murder him in one hit here, because he's far above a level 20 character as far as mundanes go. He doesn't need equipment.

[gooddragon1]

You can't AMF his punches. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUtBRGHe3aE)
He doesn't even have to directly hit the level 20 character to murder him in one hit here, because he's far above a level 20 character as far as mundanes go. He doesn't need equipment.

That's very impressive. It still doesn't mean he can hit an incorporeal target.

[Platymus Pus]

That's very impressive. It still doesn't mean he can hit an incorporeal target.

Never said he could, but who said the target was incorporeal.
Just labeling something level 20 character is too vague. He's going to kill anyone who doesn't have defenses set up.
No level 20 mundane is going to be able to kill him.
His will power level resists psionics that can lift cities so he really shouldn't ever fail a will save seeing as failing a 1 and succeeding on a 20 is a game mechanic that doesn't adhere to a real fight. And as shown his physical stats are too high to ever fail a reflex or fort save in any normal sense.
Relying on no saves that might work is all that is here.

[Beheld]

Never said he could, but who said the target was incorporeal.
Just labeling something level 20 character is too vague. He's going to kill anyone who doesn't have defenses set up.
No level 20 mundane is going to be able to kill him.
His will power level resists psionics that can lift cities so he really shouldn't ever fail a will save seeing as failing a 1 and succeeding on a 20 is a game mechanic that doesn't adhere to a real fight. And as shown his physical stats are too high to ever fail a reflex or fort save in any normal sense.
Relying on no saves that might work is all that is here.

Uh... Did you read the thread? Literally all of this has already been discussed.

[Platymus Pus]

Uh... Did you read the thread? Literally all of this has already been discussed.

Because that's the limit of the discussion and all it'll ever be.
Actually knowing about the character instead of a fanfiction set of stats someone set up is something that can be done however.

[Tvtyrant]

Also wish->hair/skin->ice assassin or simulacrum. Any percent of infinite is infinite, so the clone is just as strong.

[Oko and Qailee]

Does he have Power Resistance? (Not mentioned by the OP)

because if not, Ego Whip beats him easily.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Ego_Whip

[Flickerdart]

Also wish->hair/skin->ice assassin or simulacrum. Any percent of infinite is infinite, so the clone is just as strong.
Infinity minus infinity is not zero - Saitama could punch himself all day, hit with infinite to-hit against infinite AC, and still come out of it with infinity HP.

[Yael]

Saitama isn't immortal, as far as the manga go, just saying.
Cast grow hair, and see him fall.

Also, powers.

Also, cast Summon Epic TV Character and throw Segata Sanchiro so he throws him and cause him explode twice.
In the worst case, summon Chuck Norris using the same spell and go to town.

[Beheld]

Does he have Power Resistance? (Not mentioned by the OP)

because if not, Ego Whip beats him easily.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Ego_Whip

My kingdom . . .

[Rubik]

It's not that hard to survive infinite damage, even if you're hit an infinite number of times.

Delay Death + Beastland Ferocity would do it.

Now the trick is bringing yourself back up to positives before the spells wear off. A psicrystal + Affinity Field + Cure Minor and converting all damage to nonlethal would do it, but I'm not sure how that would work, otherwise.


[SPOILER=Actual Spoiler inside a Spoiler. Weird, huh.]Also, cast Summon Epic TV Character and throw Segata Sanchiro so he throws him and cause him explode twice.
In the worst case, summon Chuck Norris using the same spell and go to town.I'm obviously not the only follower of ScrewAttack around here.

[Yael]

Following my point, Saitama doesn't have any form of Spell Resistance of any sort, it hasn't happened once. So magic or psionics would be the way to go.

Scratch that, he actualy fought two "psions" and won.

[ben-zayb]

At this point, plenty of the methods presented in the Punchbag thread will kill OPM. If his infinite physical stats bother you, use Void Disciple with Surge of Fortune to bring them (starting with Dex, of course) down back to 5.

[Taelas]

Again, the rules is that unconscious creatures are willing, and willing creatures forego the save. The existence of a different rule in a different sentence that talks about willing participants does not erase the relevant rule.

You are taking apart a rule, focusing on one line in that rule, then using that one line, out of context, to apply to a completely different rule. Logic has left the building at this point.

"A creature can voluntarily forgo a saving throw and willingly accept a spell's result."

A creature can voluntarily forgo a save.

Some spells require willing participants, and unconscious characters automatically count as willing.

Two different rules, with absolutely no crossover. You do not forgo your saves by becoming unconscious.

Can we please stop repeating this complete and utter nonsense now?

[ComaVision]

You do not forgo your saves by becoming unconscious.


I don't know of any RAW support but there's no way I'd allow a Reflex saving throw for an unconscious target.

[Beheld]

I don't know of any RAW support but there's no way I'd allow a Reflex saving throw for an unconscious target.

Also according to Taelas's incorrect interpretation, teleportation spells such as Dimension Door result in you being able to touch and transport a "willing" target of an unconscious creature, but that willing creature cannot willingly forgo the save, so they have to make will save and then sometimes not be transported anyway.

[Taelas]

I don't know of any RAW support but there's no way I'd allow a Reflex saving throw for an unconscious target.

Unconscious characters are treated as having a Dex of 0. They still get Reflex saving throws.

You can rule otherwise in your games, but it isn't RAW.


Also according to Taelas's incorrect interpretation, teleportation spells such as Dimension Door result in you being able to touch and transport a "willing" target of an unconscious creature, but that willing creature cannot willingly forgo the save, so they have to make will save and then sometimes not be transported anyway.

That is not something that happens, because that is not how the spell works. It only affects willing creatures and objects, and only objects get a saving throw.

[Beheld]

That is not something that happens, because that is not how the spell works. It only affects willing creatures and objects, and only objects get a saving throw.

That is not what the text of the dimension door spell says.

[Taelas]

That is not what the text of the dimension door spell says.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionDoor.htm

Really. Really?

"Saving Throw: None and Will negates (object)"

Please. Tell me again that that is not what it says. Please.

[Beheld]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionDoor.htm

Really. Really?

"Saving Throw: None and Will negates (object)"

Please. Tell me again that that is not what it says. Please.

None is for you, and Will Negates is for not you. Personal Spells offer no saving throw, and Will negates (objects) means that creatures and objects make will saves. "(This notation does not mean that a spell can be cast only on objects. Some spells of this sort can be cast on creatures or objects.)"

So yes, Dimension door does not say that the willing creatures you touch are not offered a saving throw. Teleport does, but Dimension Door does not.

Therefore if you claim that unconscious creatures are willing only for targets, they still make a save against Dimension Door, but if you recognize them as willing for the purposes of targets and also forgoing saves, then you can teleport unconscious people with a 100% success rate, and boosting your will save doesn't make you more likely to be left behind when the party skedaddles while you are unconscious.

[Taelas]

.... are you seriously trying to argue that "Will negates (object)" applies to creatures?

Yeah, okay, I'm done.

[Beheld]

.... are you seriously trying to argue that "Will negates (object)" applies to creatures?

Yeah, okay, I'm done.

So what do you think happens when I cast Telekinesis Violent Thrust to throw 5 goblins off a cliff? I mean, on the one hand, it says "Will Negates(object) or None" in the saving throw entry, and on the other hand it specifically says that you can use Violent Thrust to throw creatures, and it specifically says that creatures get a saving throw.

I mean, there are two options:
1) This part of the rules is not a filthy lie by the evil designers trying to trick you:

Saving Throw

...

(object)
The spell can be cast on objects, which receive saving throws only if they are magical or if they are attended (held, worn, grasped, or the like) by a creature resisting the spell, in which case the object uses the creature’s saving throw bonus unless its own bonus is greater. (This notation does not mean that a spell can be cast only on objects. Some spells of this sort can be cast on creatures or objects.) A magic item’s saving throw bonuses are each equal to 2 + one-half the item’s caster level.

2) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

I lied, there is only one option.