Planar Binding Help

[Jeargroth]

Ok, folks need a little help here. I am playing a Malconvoker should hit level 8 in another session or so. However, I am coming up on Planar binding soon. So I am looking for a little feedback/advice.... I have read alot of the hand books, by Treant, Mxly(alphabet soup) etc... Here is my problem though.

I am playing a Malconvoker after finishing a session whereby another player also played a Malconvoker. Now his idea for a Planar binding was a Half-fiend Troll. So huge damage sponge and easy regeneration. Its a great idea... no needs to heal as it really is hard to kill. It sucks up the damage and heals up fast enough that its ready next encounter. I love the concept. However, I really don't want to just steal the idea and run it myself. I am trying to put my own spin on the build, i went focused specialist/Master specialist/Malconvoker, he went straight Specialist/Malconvoker. I want to try to keep fairly original and not just copy paste his build. However, I don't want to gimp myself either. So I am here looking for ideas.

Planar Binding Ideas; Something that will act as a defense/meat shield for my rather squishy as hell caster. She is hella squishy, like only a caster can be. Something I can bind and use as an active defense to keep the BEEG's off my butt.

thanks in advance

[Tvtyrant]

Glabrezu: the core option.
Jarilith: tiger-demon-lion, unholy damage output. MMII
steel predator: less damage than Jarilith, more defense and HP. ?
impaler Kython: loads of damage, good poison. Book of Vile Darkness.
abyssal drake: contractable mount/bodyguard from draconomicon.
Mur-zhagul: demon-troll, almost imposssible to kill. Aspect of Kostchtchie: Aspect of a Demon Prince, hits like a wall on springs.
Aspect of Tiamat: platinum option, flying mount with tons of HP, melee damage, AoE damage, and is intelligent. Dragon Magic.

[Jeargroth]

Things I have thought of so far for Lesser Planar Binding...

bearded devil
bahrgest, and feeding it along...
feindish Black bear, (grapple for any melee that seem to want to whack me)

[Tvtyrant]

Monster Manual IV Voor is the best lesser planar binding you can get for combat. Straight up.

[Crake]

If you're looking for a pure combat beast, well, there are plenty of options out there. However, if there's another malconvoker already, maybe pick up something of a more utility option. Succubi have an insane amount of utility about them, with charm monster, suggestion, teleport, and ethereal jaunt all at will, as well as other nice things like telepathy to keep the party in communication while being silent. This lets them do a variety of things from resupplying the party by teleporting back into town, scouting out whole dungeons with ethereal jaunt, and turning enemies into allies. The only thing you'll need to do is to keep her appeased and make sure she doesn't turn on you after she's done helping. With devious manipulators like those you need to build a good relationship to prevent it from coming to bite you in the ass afterwards. That is, assuming your your DM actually plays down that line rather than making planar binding just a fire and forget kind of spell, in which case just go gung ho on it.

[Acanous]

Why stop with just one? Planar Binding can get you all kinds of things, and it does stack. Get a bunch and use them like an army.
Also, invisible stalker, Succubus. You are now an amazing rogue. Using Summon Monster for beatsticks and planar binding for utility, you'll be entirely different from your companion.

[golem1972]

Bar-lgura demon, have it always ready an action to "abrupt jaunt" you away from danger using it's snatch and greater teleport abilities (remember to specify how far away from danger and where to teleport to).

I'm assuming you didn't pick up the abrupt jaunt ACF in favor of the standard action summons.

[Jeargroth]

Bar-lgura demon, have it always ready an action to "abrupt jaunt" you away from danger using it's snatch and greater teleport abilities (remember to specify how far away from danger and where to teleport to).

I'm assuming you didn't pick up the abrupt jaunt ACF in favor of the standard action summons.



I love it... Took forever to find a copy of the Monster entry, its completely defensive in how I want to use it... battlefield movement and control, without going overboard on the DPR and making other players feel useless. If all it does is keep things from hitting me and port me around the field of battle to stay safe I think my DM will allow it.

As for using a Succubus... I don't know if I can do it... I went focused specialist banning, Evocation, (of course), Necromancy (ugh) and Enchantment... I found too many other spells in other schools useful for other things. I am not sure how to get around the loss of Enchantment for the challenge of a Succubus at this level. Later levels not an issue with items and Malconvoker levels. Other caster might be able to help.

Thanks for the input Playgrounders, I am now brimming with ideas, Barhgest (make it wander in goblin form for threat reduction), Fiendish Troll for the unkillable wall of flesh, Fiendish Brown Bear for a Grappler and wall of meat to take cover behind, and now the Bar-Igura for maximum field placement.

[Acanous]

you're a Malconvoker, you have Planar Binding. All you need to do is diplomacy/bluff the succubi into helping you, then the spell keeps her honest.

[Drynwyn]

I would recommend a Fiendish Eye of the Deep (Lords of Madness). It has a 60 foot cone of 1d6 round stun and 2d6 round blindness (Fort to avoid), as well as two killer eye rays (Hold Person and a CL12 Cone of Cold)- the really nice thing is that it has a really nasty ability that targets each saving throw.

[Jeargroth]

you're a Malconvoker, you have Planar Binding. All you need to do is diplomacy/bluff the succubi into helping you, then the spell keeps her honest.

Don't think my GM will go for that, less I actually use Diplomacy... not a set skill right now. Bluff he will allow for Lies and Deceit, but don't think he will allow bluff to move her attitude from Hostile to unfriendly or even cooperative. Though it is worth a shot asking.

If anybody has input on that little tidbit please chime in. As I read Diplomacy is the only thing that will allow me to make something like me. Bluff can fool the thing into thinking I am on its side but it still won't like me....

[Crake]

you're a Malconvoker, you have Planar Binding. All you need to do is diplomacy/bluff the succubi into helping you, then the spell keeps her honest.

Only as honest as your orders.

The trick to parlaying with demons is a good level of give and take. You want them to do things for you, you need to do things for them too. Realistically, if you can make a good deal with her, her attitude should be at the very least indifferent. Of course, if you're using planar binding to force her to do your will, you should expect her to try and subvert all your orders and make your plan crash and burn.

Basically what I'm saying is you need to maker her WANT to work with you. Give her a good enough carrot and she will maybe even give you her name so you can call her again sometime. The best case would be to planar bind a quasit, have it use it's commune ability to find the name of a succubus who's willing to work with mortals, and then use sending to initiate communications BEFORE you planar bind her. That way you're already on good terms with her when you call her, and the planar binding contract is just a formality, because if your DM is anything like me, a demon who was just randomly plucked from their previous business by a planar binding will be less than happy about having their work interrupted, but organising a time to have the planar binding done before hand means it becomes less of a jarring transposition for the demon.

Edit: Oh, also, until you find a demon you're happy to work with, wear a mask and make sure you have no visible defining features, in case one of them decides they want to come mess with you.

[Tvtyrant]

I would get a scroll of lesser geas, then just put a geas on the critter to accept the pact terms you offer. Then it has to accept, because it will lose charisma until it loses the pact negotiation anyway.

[Crake]

I would get a scroll of lesser geas, then just put a geas on the critter to accept the pact terms you offer. Then it has to accept, because it will lose charisma until it loses the pact negotiation anyway.

Don't do this. It's a surefire way to make powerful planar enemies. Sure they'll be forced to work for you this one time, but then they will forevermore be working against you.

[Tvtyrant]

Don't do this. It's a surefire way to make powerful planar enemies. Sure they'll be forced to work for you this one time, but then they will forevermore be working against you.

Nah, you do the head slicing thing at the end of the relationship. I won't be around when they reform 100 years later.

Besides, how else do you make Elder Evils work for you?

[Crake]

Nah, you do the head slicing thing at the end of the relationship. I won't be around when they reform 100 years later.

Besides, how else do you make Elder Evils work for you?

Headslicing makes things even worse, because there's no way that outsider wasn't already working for someone. When they find out you've gone and killed their underling without their permission, you'll have made an even BIGGER enemy.

And that's assuming their boss doesn't have access to some kind of ability to bring them back. After all, for outsiders, limited wish is as effective as true resurrection. All it takes is a measly DC40 religion sacrifice check by some level 3 cult leader with guidance of the avatar, 6 ranks, and a few of the situational sacrifice bonuses/skill focus/decent int/assist check with a take 10 to bring them back.

[Tvtyrant]

Headslicing makes things even worse, because there's no way that outsider wasn't already working for someone. When they find out you've gone and killed their underling without their permission, you'll have made an even BIGGER enemy.

And that's assuming their boss doesn't have access to some kind of ability to bring them back. After all, for outsiders, limited wish is as effective as true resurrection. All it takes is a measly DC40 religion sacrifice check by some level 3 cult leader with guidance of the avatar, 6 ranks, and a few of the situational sacrifice bonuses/skill focus/decent int/assist check with a take 10 to bring them back.
Sure, but the same thing is true whenever you go to Hell or the Abyss. Unless you are calling up Balors and the like chances are no one cares. And the Jarilith types even more so; who is going to come avenge a wild cat or a kython?

[Crake]

Sure, but the same thing is true whenever you go to Hell or the Abyss. Unless you are calling up Balors and the like chances are no one cares. And the Jarilith types even more so; who is going to come avenge a wild cat or a kython?

If you were summoning random, mindless beatsticks, then yeah, but we're talking about succubi, some of the top fiendish manipulators who have their fingers in all sorts of pies.

[Âmesang]

There is so much innuendo you could gleam from that last line, Crake. :smalltongue:

Aside from succubi (yay for soulfire armor, am I right?), I've always been partial to shadow demons for their incorporealness (?) and host of resistances/immunities; though their vile damage attacks tend to mean more when used against the PCs, but they're still fun. Works for Venger, no?

[Jeargroth]

So, it will be up for negotiations with DM, if I go Sucubuss route. As for lesser Geas I can't cast it, forbidden school (enchantment). I like the idea of talking to a Quasit then calling the Succubus... Bluff with the Quasit on how evil I am and then call the friendlier Succubus. Bluff her on what evils we will unleash and attempt to use that for the charisma checks.

[Tvtyrant]

So, it will be up for negotiations with DM, if I go Sucubuss route. As for lesser Geas I can't cast it, forbidden school (enchantment). I like the idea of talking to a Quasit then calling the Succubus... Bluff with the Quasit on how evil I am and then call the friendlier Succubus. Bluff her on what evils we will unleash and attempt to use that for the charisma checks.

I explicitly addressed this when I said buy a scroll.

[Jeargroth]

I explicitly addressed this when I said buy a scroll.

I was under the impression, Scrolls and Wands of Banned schools were also Forbidden. As I was explained giving up Enchantment, Evocation and Necromancy mean also giving up using Items from them as well... Things like rings, clothes ect are ok, but scrolls and Wands are out I thought. If there is a way around the RAW then please let me know so I may use it to make my GM heads pop.

[Deadline]

I was under the impression, Scrolls and Wands of Banned schools were also Forbidden.

They are. You can't freely activate scrolls, wands, and staves from your Banned schools. However, if you've put points in the Use Magic Device skill, you can activate the scroll that way (with a successful UMD skill check), just like any other class that puts points into that skill.

[Jeargroth]

They are. You can't freely activate scrolls, wands, and staves from your Banned schools. However, if you've put points in the Use Magic Device skill, you can activate the scroll that way (with a successful UMD skill check), just like any other class that puts points into that skill.


Thanks that will help kinda... UMD is a Cross class skill for Wizard... :smallfurious:.

[Crake]

Oh quick note with succubi. They have detect thoughts at will, soooo, bluffing might be hard without a ring of mind shielding. I highly recommend you pick one up, as it also masks your alignment, which can be helpful against these kinds of things.

[Drynwyn]

Thanks that will help kinda... UMD is a Cross class skill for Wizard... :smallfurious:.

There's no need for you to be the one to use the scroll. Get your friendly neighborhood rogue/bard/artificer/factotum to help out.

[Acanous]

Succubi are seriously nice to have around.
When you gain access to the Deceitful Bargaining class feature (Malc 6) you get to bluff them automatically when you summon. That's huge.

If you're casting Planar Binding and not Lesser Planar Binding, you already have this class feature.

I'd like to point out that Demons are not Devils, and the hierarchy of devils is unique to L/E outsiders. Demons are a lot less rigid command structure, less likely to have a boss that tracks you down (infinite horde and all) and more likely to *Personally* come after you later. It would still be fun to negotiate VIA a lesser demon, but you're not going to have Pazuzu on your butt just because you summoned up a succubus without asking politely.

When summoning a succubus, you want to do the usual Planar Binding checklist:

1: Stone Shape to create a nondescript, featureless room which cannot be used to identify where you are.
2: Take 20 on the check to create a diagram in your magic circle
3: Nondetection or Mind Blank on self
4: Protection from Evil on self
5: Dimensional Anchor on the circle

If your CHA is lower than that of the target, I'd also toss up a Symbol of Pain so they've got -4 on the opposed check. (This is an Evil thing to do, and may impact your alignment, but later on honestly it should add a circumstance bonus to your bluff check when trying to convince them that you're evil)
When you are negotiating servitude, it is an opposed CHA check, so boost your CHA as much as possible.

[Endarire]

Practical Demonkeeping (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6320.0)

[Crake]

If your CHA is lower than that of the target, I'd also toss up a Symbol of Pain so they've got -4 on the opposed check. (This is an Evil thing to do, and may impact your alignment, but later on honestly it should add a circumstance bonus to your bluff check when trying to convince them that you're evil)
When you are negotiating servitude, it is an opposed CHA check, so boost your CHA as much as possible.

Starting a relationship with a demon by inflicting an annoying (but not mindwracking) level of pain on them isn't just evil, its stupid. You want to have a good relationship with outsiders you work with, otherwise they will do their best to subvert your commands to the ends of getting you killed. I mean, they'll subvert them anyway, for personal gain, but you don't want to add "your death" to their list of wishes.