Ranged Combat Prone

[SangoProduction]

From what I understand, you get a bonus to AC vs ranged, and a penalty vs melee while prone. You also can't (normally) get up, move, and attack in one round - so if you get charged, you're kinda boned if you were prone. I think there's a skill trick which gets you to do it as a swift action.

But, is there any penalty to attack while prone? (Doesn't really make sense to have one, but this is D&D...if we exclude bows from this argument.)

So, assuming there was no threat of melee getting to you, then should you just get prone to make it so the ranged guys have a harder time hitting you?

[stanprollyright]

I was always under the impression that prone crossbow sniping was an effective tactic, but I could be wrong. Your DM could pull out the "high ground" rules since you're technically below everyone else.

[SangoProduction]

I was always under the impression that prone crossbow sniping was an effective tactic, but I could be wrong. Your DM could pull out the "high ground" rules since you're technically below everyone else.

lol. That'd be a really odd ruling.

[Diarmuid]

There are penalties for attacking while prone and restrictions on making ranged attacks......and they're clearly stated in the SRD.


Prone

The character is on the ground. An attacker who is prone has a -4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A defender who is prone gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a -4 penalty to AC against melee attacks.

Standing up is a move-equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity.

[Curmudgeon]

This will work as you described if there's open terrain. Most of the time you'll have rocks, bushes, and whatnot which will provide cover in various directions, limiting your target choices to enemies who don't have cover from you.

[SangoProduction]

There are penalties for attacking while prone and restrictions on making ranged attacks......and they're clearly stated in the SRD.

Thanks for that quote. Spells and powers don't count, right?


This will work as you described if there's open terrain. Most of the time you'll have rocks, bushes, and whatnot which will provide cover in various directions, limiting your target choices to enemies who don't have cover from you.

Oddly enough, most DMs I've seen never thinks it important to mention bushes and rocks. But I'll remember to ask if there are bushes to hide behind next session.

[torrasque666]

Hmmm.... is it ever mentioned that you can't move while prone?

[SangoProduction]

Hmmm.... is it ever mentioned that you can't move while prone?

I made an assumption based on what I remembered. But it kinda made sense that you couldn't move (at least as fast) if you were prone. Especially if that prone-ness was inflicted by some knock-down maneuver.

[Curmudgeon]

Hmmm.... is it ever mentioned that you can't move while prone?
Actually, no; you can move while prone.
Crawling
You can crawl 5 feet as a move action. Crawling incurs attacks of opportunity from any attackers who threaten you at any point of your crawl.

[PallentisLunam]

I seem to remember that you can move 5 ft. as a..... standard action(?) while prone. But I can't find it.

Edit: Ninja'd with the actual information too

[SangoProduction]

Actually, no; you can move while prone.

Thanks again for the quote.

Is there a like partial-prone, like "crouched"?

[Psyren]

Thanks again for the quote.

Is there a like partial-prone, like "crouched"?

You could probably fluff fighting defensively that way.

[Curmudgeon]

Is there a like partial-prone, like "crouched"?
The rules list kneeling and sitting, as you can see on the table here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#tableArmorClassModifiers). There's no movement listed for sitting or kneeling, though.

[SangoProduction]

The rules list kneeling and sitting, as you can see on the table here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#tableArmorClassModifiers). There's no movement listed for sitting or kneeling, though.

That's really nice.

[stanprollyright]

The rules list kneeling and sitting, as you can see on the table here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#tableArmorClassModifiers). There's no movement listed for sitting or kneeling, though.

How exactly would you be moving while kneeling or sitting?

[TIPOT]

How exactly would you be moving while kneeling or sitting?

Some sort of magic chair with wheels? We could call it a wheelchair. :smalltongue:

[SangoProduction]

How exactly would you be moving while kneeling or sitting?

Kneeling/sitting is just an analogue for "you aren't standing up tall, but aren't lying prone either." It's rather common for soldiers to move while crouched to keep the amount of area they expose to fire to a minimum.

[ericgrau]

Crouch walking I suppose. Though if you're kneeling with one leg on the ground that's not really crouching. You would have to get up first. So you either spend a move action to stand, then start walking, or a free action to drop prone, then start crawling.

I don't think it's in the SRD but d20 star wars or saga or some such says that standing up from kneeling is a move action that doesn't provoke. Similar to standing up from prone, except that does provoke. Even if that's not RAW, if you can't find any other rule in 3.5 then it sounds good to me to play with this one.

[SangoProduction]

Crouch walking I suppose. Though if you're kneeling with one leg on the ground that's not really crouching. You would have to get up first. So you either spend a move action to stand, then start walking, or a free action to drop prone, then start crawling.

I don't think it's in the SRD but d20 star wars or saga or some such says that standing up from kneeling is a move action that doesn't provoke. Similar to standing up from prone, except that does provoke. Even if that's not RAW, if you can't find any other rule in 3.5 then it sounds good to me to play with this one.

It doesn't take much effort to stand or crouch from a kneeling position. Why would it take as much effort as walking 30 feet?

If you want to add an action to standing from a crouched position, make it a swift action.

[ericgrau]

Just going by the Star Wars rules since that's all I found way back when.

It still takes a couple seconds, maybe 1 if you're quite quick. If anything you might make it consume X feet of movement if a move action seemed like too much. A couple seconds is pretty close to a move action though. I suppose the third second is spent moving carefully enough to watch your enemy and not get stabbed in the meantime. And there is an acrobatic feat or skill trick or something to make it a swift.

Moving 30 feet in 3 seconds is about a 7 mph jog btw, almost running.

[stanprollyright]

Kneeling/sitting is just an analogue for "you aren't standing up tall, but aren't lying prone either." It's rather common for soldiers to move while crouched to keep the amount of area they expose to fire to a minimum.

That's not kneeling or sitting, that's crouching. That would just be a regular move.

[Crake]

It doesn't take much effort to stand or crouch from a kneeling position. Why would it take as much effort as walking 30 feet?

If you want to add an action to standing from a crouched position, make it a swift action.

Considering runners begin their sprints crouched, i would say that moving from a crouched position would not be an action at all, and that going back to a crouched position, just like dropping prone, would be a free action.

[ericgrau]

Considering runners begin their sprints crouched, i would say that moving from a crouched position would not be an action at all, and that going back to a crouched position, just like dropping prone, would be a free action.
That's crouching not kneeling.

It's seeming more and more that crouching is not significantly different from standing and that's probably why there are no rules for it.


That's not kneeling or sitting, that's crouching. That would just be a regular move.
Yeah, this.

[SangoProduction]

Moving 30 feet in 3 seconds is about a 7 mph jog btw, almost running.

Moving no more than your movement speed in a round is defined as walking in D&D. But yes, it is quite fast, for the span of time you walk within that round. All the more reason why standing shouldn't take an equivalent amount of time as that.

[stanprollyright]

Moving 30 feet in 3 seconds is about a 7 mph jog btw, almost running.

I always considered a move action to be somewhat simultaneous with your other actions (since you can do other things while walking), and would therefore actually represent more like 5 seconds of movement. Considering a charge (where you're definitely running) or a full-out sprint are twice or 4 times your move speed in 6 seconds, this makes sense to me. It doesn't take 3 seconds to swing a sword, but it's more or less assumed that you did more than just make a single swing.

[Psyren]

The time for a move action (and a standard for that matter) is pretty abstracted - all we can say for sure is that it takes less than 6 seconds. We can't definitively conclude that that means 3, 4, or 5.

[Platymus Pus]

I always considered a move action to be somewhat simultaneous with your other actions (since you can do other things while walking), and would therefore actually represent more like 5 seconds of movement. Considering a charge (where you're definitely running) or a full-out sprint are twice or 4 times your move speed in 6 seconds, this makes sense to me. It doesn't take 3 seconds to swing a sword, but it's more or less assumed that you did more than just make a single swing.

It may be a single roll but it's more than one swing, it's just what connects.

[SangoProduction]

It may be a single roll but it's more than one swing, it's just what connects.

Unless you miss.

[Curmudgeon]

It doesn't take much effort to stand or crouch from a kneeling position. Why would it take as much effort as walking 30 feet?
It takes a move action because that's the D&D default for movement. Skip Williams states that you avoid the "stand from prone" AoO when you instead "stand from kneeling"; so that's a significant benefit. Of course, that's in a "Rules of the Game" article (see here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040618a)), wherein there's often a mix of official rules and Skip's house rules. However, in this case I think Skip's on the side of the actual rules. You're not standing from prone, and you're not leaving a threatened square; consequently, you're not doing anything which provokes an attack of opportunity.