Quick-and-Dirty Fighter WBL Fix

[P.F.]

Ignoring for the moment all other martial classes and caster-vs-mundane inequalities, I want to focus on the wealth-by-level disparity. Whereas classes with utility skills, spells, and abilities use their gold to buy magic for versatility or synergy, the fighter generally has to spend the bulk of her treasure on basic fighting kit. I have looked at the "balanced" and "alternate" WBL guidelines and decided that they are inadequate for my purposes. Instead, I am proposing a class ability called "Professional Courtesy."


Professional Courtesy: Starting at 2nd level, and upon attaining each new level of Fighter thereafter, the character may use his or her professional connections in the martial community to obtain a magic weapon, shield, or suit of armor at half the regular purchase price. This ability may also be used when applying additional enhancements or special properties to existing weapons, shields, or suits of armor. Whether purchasing upgrades or new equipment, the total regular price of a weapon, shield, or suit of armor obtained through this ability may be no greater than the amount listed for the character's level on Table 5-1 in the Dungeon Master's Guide.

Essentially, she will have weapons, armor and shield exactly as if she had spent her entire WBL on these items, but will still have (at least) half her treasure left over to purchase other items. This will also alleviate some of the financial strain of using two-weapon fighting. Since the items can be sold later at half-price, it also eliminates the penalty for frequently trading in old equipment. The limit of one item per level should prevent buying weapons for other party members except as an occasional favor, and since they are sold at the same price, this ability will not end up generating "free money" for the party.

Am I missing any snowball effects or obvious abuses that could result form these changes?

[OldTrees1]

The higher level the Fighter, the more of their combat gear is not covered by magic weapons, shields, and armors.


Phoenix Cloak(MiC, 50Kgp)(Fly Perfect at land speed)
Third Eye Conceal(Mic, 120Kgp)(Mind Blank)
Banner of the Storm's Eye(MiC, 15Kgp)(Stun and Fear immunity aura)
Hathran Mask of True Seeing(UE, 75Kgp)(True Seeing)
Minor Cloak of Displacement(DMG, 24Kgp)(20% Miss Chance)
Ring of Blinking(DMG, 27K)(Blinking at will)
Dimension Stride Boots(MiC, 2Kgp)(Teleport 20ft 5/day)
Soulfire(BoED, +4Armor/25Kgp Bracers)(Immunity to Death Effects, Energy Drain, and Negative Levels)
Ring of Freedom of Movement(DMG, 40Kgp)(Freedom of Movement)
Dispelling + Greater Dispelling(MiC, +2Weapon/18Kgp Backup weapon)(3/day cl 5 targeted Dispel Magic, 3/day cl 10 targeted Dispel Magic)
Blindsighted(Und, +30Kgp weapon)(Blindsight 30ft)
Raptor's Mask(MiC, 3.5Kgp)(Immunity to Blindness)
Tooth of Leraje (ToM, 21.6Kgp)(1/day Greater Magic Weapon +5)
Cloak of Resistance +5 (DMG, 25Kgp)
534,850gp spent so far(under 19th level WBL)
+Ability Boosts
+Primary Weapon(would include some way of bypassing DR/magic, DR/damage type, DR/material, and DR/alignment, that might be the +2 Transmuting ability or Hank's Energy Bow)
+Primary Armor
The vast majority of that gear loadout(403.1K gp) is wearable Wonderous Items.

So while your proposed ability might add a couple gp to the Fighter, it will not be a significant change.

[Ellowryn]

I think you are over-exaggerating the amount of wealth spent on weapons and armor. A standard two-handed fighter in full plate only really needs a +1 Greatsword, a +1 Tower Shield with Animated, a set of +1 Full plate/Bracers of Armor with Soulblaze, Gleaming, and Heavy Fortification, oh and that armor crystal that allows you to sleep in heavy armor. Thats really it, and all of which costs under 100k gold. Sure you can add more stuff on there, but it really isn't going to make the fighter better at being a fighter or really do all that much more damage or take less damage. What makes the fighter so much worse than many other classes is all they can do is hit things really hard and you have to spend a bunch of wealth to try and expand on that, and the simplist fix is to play a ToB character instead.

What you could do is port over the Magic Item creation system from PF just for the fighter and give him access to that one feat that allows him to use ranks in craft to substitute for caster level for acquiring item creation feats and crafting magic items. That way he can spend half on ALL his magic items, make whatever items he needs, and doesn't have to spend exp on it.

[Curmudgeon]

This might lead to some odd outcomes, whereby the Fighter will get something as a weapon or armor enhancement rather than in the form someone else would normally obtain it. For example, Heavy Fortification armor as a +5 cost armor enhancement is thus very expensive; most people would rather pay the one-time cost of 35,000 gp + an NPC casting Limited Wish and get a Gemstone of Fortification (Draconomicon, page 83) implanted instead. That's not only cheaper (under the standard rules), but also safe from Rust Monster attacks. Under the "Professional Courtesy" proposed rule, a Fighter with armor that totals no more than +8 enhancements (+1 base, +5 Heavy Fortification, up to +2 for anything else) gets their 100% Fortification for less.

[P.F.]

...right, should have specified, core-only.


What you could do is port over the Magic Item creation system from PF just for the fighter and give him access to that one feat that allows him to use ranks in craft to substitute for caster level for acquiring item creation feats and crafting magic items. That way he can spend half on ALL his magic items, make whatever items he needs, and doesn't have to spend exp on it.

Hmm. I like the idea of using craft skill, but wouldn't it still take from now until the 12th of Never to create? We've been ignoring the xp requirement for crafting since before Paffinder, so the normal limiting factor on casters making loads of gear at half-price has been the days and weeks of construction time.


This might lead to some odd outcomes, whereby the Fighter will get something as a weapon or armor enhancement rather than in the form someone else would normally obtain it.

I'm okay with this. Looking at the sample gear above, that fighter is already getting a couple of his abilities from weapons that would probably make more sense as something else.


The higher level the Fighter, the more of their combat gear is not covered by magic weapons, shields, and armors ... The vast majority of that gear loadout(403.1K gp) is wearable Wonderous Items.

So while your proposed ability might add a couple gp to the Fighter, it will not be a significant change.

I concede the point that what a fighter needs more than anything is a Christmas-tree's-worth of wondrous items that duplicate useful spells and abilities from other classes.

I really appreciate the feedback!

[Curmudgeon]

Am I missing any snowball effects or obvious abuses that could result form these changes?
It's still a money-maker for the Fighter who invests in Diplomacy to use Haggle rules (Complete Adventurer, pages 98-99). Martial Study (White Raven) + Able Learner is enough to make this work for a pure Fighter. They'll buy at 9/10th the "Professional Courtesy" price, and sell at 10/9th the normal ½ price.

It's a fairly minor abuse, but it benefits the Fighter who trades their gear frequently.

[OldTrees1]

I concede the point that what a fighter needs more than anything is a Christmas-tree's-worth of wondrous items that duplicate useful spells and abilities from other classes.

I really appreciate the feedback!

Huh? That list was not "fighter buying items to mimic spells/abilities of other classes". That list was "defenses a fighter needs in order to engage with higher CR encounters". A fighter needs to be able to deal with flying, invisible, and energy draining opponents. A fighter needs to be able to deal with crippling status effects like Blindness, Stun, Entangle, and Hold Person. (Although in Core, the DM often needs to avoid encounters that require these defenses due to lack of defenses for the fighter to acquire)

I am sorry that it did not read as the useful feedback it was. However it is important to realize that most of a normal martial warrior's wealth will be invested in non weapon/armor magic items as they reach mid-high levels (as a normal result of the mid-high level defensive items being clothing rather than armor).

[Ellowryn]

Hmm. I like the idea of using craft skill, but wouldn't it still take from now until the 12th of Never to create? We've been ignoring the xp requirement for crafting since before Paffinder, so the normal limiting factor on casters making loads of gear at half-price has been the days and weeks of construction time.


Well, you could just cut the time to craft for fighters, perhaps something scaling with level to represent his progression to a master arms and armor maker. Of course make sure it requires at least 3 levels in fighter to help prevent dip abuse.

[P.F.]

Huh? That list was not "fighter buying items to mimic spells/abilities of other classes". That list was "defenses a fighter needs in order to engage with higher CR encounters". A fighter needs to be able to deal with flying, invisible, and energy draining opponents. A fighter needs to be able to deal with crippling status effects like Blindness, Stun, Entangle, and Hold Person. (Although in Core, the DM often needs to avoid encounters that require these defenses due to lack of defenses for the fighter to acquire)

I am sorry that it did not read as the useful feedback it was. However it is important to realize that most of a normal martial warrior's wealth will be invested in non weapon/armor magic items as they reach mid-high levels (as a normal result of the mid-high level defensive items being clothing rather than armor).

No, I'm sure the error was in my interpretation of the post. I know on some level you and I are not even playing the same game here, but I'm posting because I want different perspectives. To what extent is this sort of gear different than the defensive gear a spellcaster would carry? Because a cleric could use death ward and invisibility purge, for instance, but when possible would probably prefer to carry an item that confers passive immunity and save those spell slots (and standard actions) for other things. Or am I still missing something there?

[OldTrees1]

No, I'm sure the error was in my interpretation of the post. I know on some level you and I are not even playing the same game here, but I'm posting because I want different perspectives. To what extent is this sort of gear different than the defensive gear a spellcaster would carry? Because a cleric could use death ward and invisibility purge, for instance, but when possible would probably prefer to carry an item that confers passive immunity and save those spell slots (and standard actions) for other things. Or am I still missing something there?

I play martial characters while avoiding casting/daily abilities(even going Fighter over ToB classes). So our game styles might be closer than you think. :)

Well several of these defenses are for some but not all battles. While crucial in the battles they are needed for, a caster can weigh their options between committing a magic item cost or a spell slot. Often a spell slot will be cheaper for the caster(though things like Freedom of Movement and Mind Blank tend to be needed before they are known to be needed). However there is pros and cons to both investments for a caster.

Also some of these defenses are only a concern for non casters due to the natural limitations of non caster's combat styles. A 1st level mage can cast sleep on a flying archer. but a swordsman would struggle getting into reach(and would resort to a secondary ranged weapon). A caster can throw AoEs to hit an invisible target. but the rogue has to guess at a square, suffer a miss chance, and be denied their sneak attack. A caster can cast at any target in the room, but to get a full attack the barbarian would have to travel across the potentially tricky terrain(pits, rubble, slopes, muck, ...) and then they still can't full attack until next turn. Hence why flight, see invisibility, and movement enhancements are more important defenses for a non caster(because they are defenses against being trivialized).

As a side note: Unlike non casters, casters get better benefit/cost when investing WBL in their offensive capabilities. Casters would also be spending things on freeing up spell slots(via wands and staffs for situational spells), making their spells more potent(metamagic rods are common choices but so are things that buff DC and cl), and increasing their number of spell slots.

[Psyren]

You can do this in Pathfinder without homebrew - just have the Fighter take Master Craftsman and he can proceed to craft his magic arms and armor at half price as suggested. You can even address the concern in the first reply, because they can also qualify for Craft Wondrous Item too, and thus make their Belt of Giant Strength, Amulet of Natural Armor, Winged Boots and whatever else, all without any help or spellcasting required.

I like the flavor of the crafting approach better as well - imo, using connections to get discounts should be more the purview of the rogue.

[Triskavanski]

You know, I just realized..

A Fighter who has just one Magic item mastery feat (from Weapon Masters Guide) Would qualify for magic item crafting.

[Curmudgeon]

You can do this in Pathfinder without homebrew - just have the Fighter take Master Craftsman and he can proceed to craft his magic arms and armor at half price as suggested.
You can't keep other classes from doing the same thing, though, which nullifies the stated intent of giving the Fighter a financial leg up.

[Troacctid]

You know, I just realized..

A Fighter who has just one Magic item mastery feat (from Weapon Masters Guide) Would qualify for magic item crafting.

Well, Fighters can already craft a bonded item without any prerequisites (per DMG2), so there's that.

[P.F.]

You can't keep other classes from doing the same thing, though, which nullifies the stated intent of giving the Fighter a financial leg up.

What's more, when my usual group has, say, our alchemist or bard as a crafter, and there's only enough time to make One Thing, that One Thing usually ends up being a thing for the wizard or the cleric which everyone agrees is needed for the next part of the adventure. Giving the fighter the job of party equipmonkey will keep him busy during downtime when the casters are scribing scrolls or brewing potions and the rogue is running a confidence game, but it could easily leave him less well-equipped than the other characters instead of more.

[Psyren]

You can't keep other classes from doing the same thing, though, which nullifies the stated intent of giving the Fighter a financial leg up.

They have little incentive to do so though; having 5 characters in the party with Craft Wondrous Item is no more advantageous than having one. In fact, it's actively detrimental, as those other characters could have spent their feats on more directly useful things like metamagic instead. If the fighter has any advantage over other classes, it's a surfeit of feats to spend on things like this. ("Surfeat?")

[ericgrau]

Isn't it simpler to lower the price of weapons and armor and then give easy access to upgrades rather than selling? Or decreasing the price even further overcomes selling losses. You might including strength boosting items too.

While they might not use this to get a great weapon, it also gives them more gold for other items. Actually I suspect something part way in between will happen: they'll get a little better weapon and they'll have a little more to spend on other items.

Raising WBL in general helps non-casters more because magic items are more redundant on casters. There are plenty of ways to get different spells, but few ways to boost your existing ones by much. Plus many items like weapons, armor, size boosters, mobility boosters that bring you into melee range, etc. are of less use on those who are poor physically.

[Curmudgeon]

Raising WBL in general helps non-casters more because magic items are more redundant on casters.
I disagree. Everybody can make use of magic items. Spells don't take up body slots, so you can always find something useful for every part of the Xmas tree and add spell enhancements on top. If you make more wealth available it's going to benefit spellcasters at least as much as noncasters. Buying scrolls of spells the spellcaster wants to learn costs money. Scribing those spells into a spellbook costs money. Plus, some spells are just expensive to cast.
Material Component: A sprinkle of holy water and diamonds worth a total of at least 25,000 gp.
More wealth to everybody means more power to spellcasters.

[Psyren]

I disagree. Everybody can make use of magic items. Spells don't take up body slots, so you can always find something useful for every part of the Xmas tree and add spell enhancements on top. If you make more wealth available it's going to benefit spellcasters at least as much as noncasters. Buying scrolls of spells the spellcaster wants to learn costs money. Scribing those spells into a spellbook costs money. Plus, some spells are just expensive to cast.
More wealth to everybody means more power to spellcasters.

Somehow I don't see the Fighter being resurrected doing any complaining :smalltongue:

[ericgrau]

I disagree. Everybody can make use of magic items. Spells don't take up body slots, so you can always find something useful for every part of the Xmas tree and add spell enhancements on top. If you make more wealth available it's going to benefit spellcasters at least as much as noncasters. Buying scrolls of spells the spellcaster wants to learn costs money. Scribing those spells into a spellbook costs money. Plus, some spells are just expensive to cast.
More wealth to everybody means more power to spellcasters.

Everyone can use them, but some can make better use of them than others. A 5th or 6th spell of the same or lower level of what you can already cast has a much smaller marginal benefit than adding on utility to someone who has little or none. Giving a wizard more spells is like giving a fighter more feats. He still benefits and in general they're wonderful, but around the 10th one they aren't nearly as impressive as the earlier ones.

[OldTrees1]

Everyone can use them, but some can make better use of them than others. A 5th or 6th spell of the same or lower level of what you can already cast has a much smaller marginal benefit than adding on utility to someone who has little or none. Giving a wizard more spells is like giving a fighter more feats. He still benefits and in general they're wonderful, but around the 10th one they aren't nearly as impressive as the earlier ones.

Interestingly enough which type of character can use magic items better flips depending on if you are looking at objective(benefit/gp) or relative(new strength/prior strength) improvement. Casters can utilize the more powerful benefit/gp items like metamagic rod or additional spells/day(wand or slots) but as you said this is a small relative increase in the caster's power.

[P.F.]

While they might not use this to get a great weapon, it also gives them more gold for other items. Actually I suspect something part way in between will happen: they'll get a little better weapon and they'll have a little more to spend on other items.

This is what I had in mind. It's not going to be a huge benefit, but it's also not going to be severely abuseable or look grossly unfair to other players.


Interestingly enough which type of character can use magic items better flips depending on if you are looking at objective(benefit/gp) or relative(new strength/prior strength) improvement. Casters can utilize the more powerful benefit/gp items like metamagic rod or additional spells/day(wand or slots) but as you said this is a small relative increase in the caster's power.

This touches on the other big issue I am hoping to ameliorate: weapons and armor price-scale as if they were almost the best items in the game. They're not. By knocking down the cost, I want to bring this kind of fighter equipment back down to a more reasonable benefit/gp ratio.

[ericgrau]

I see. I still think a weapon and armor discount is the simple answer then. How much of a discount depends on how much benefit you want. If you want easier swap-ability then a higher resale value is also a simpler answer. Even if others might use the weapons too they benefit them less. The reason for a higher resale value is simple: Lots of adventurers can use weapons and armor without getting super picky so they're easier to resell. A tan bag of tricks OTOH is much harder to find a buyer for. Or, again, provide easy access to NPCs who make and upgrade weapons and armor so players don't have to sell or find their weapon. It would be good to do the same for other AC boosting items.

It is a good point that you don't get a good magic weapon until high level, but you still might get magic armor at a lower level. It may be good to include other fighter items such as the masterwork quality in general and strength boosters.

[P.F.]

I see. I still think a weapon and armor discount is the simple answer then. How much of a discount depends on how much benefit you want. If you want easier swap-ability then a higher resale value is also a simpler answer. Even if others might use the weapons too they benefit them less.

I have considered this, but I run up against the other side of OldTrees' insight, which is that while a fighter benefits more from magic weapons overall because the fighter does more with his weapons, the proportional improvement is less. Ignoring the Central Dogma of Optimization for ease of comparison, a 9th-level rogue with a +4 weapon instead of +3 is going to have a 17% improvement in his hit percentage; the fighter gets only an 11% boost from the same upgrade, and is more dependent on her weapons overall, as she is likely to have weapon-specific feats and abilities.

Really what I'd like to see, and am trying to bring about with this houserule, is the fighter getting the +4 weapon anyway (in actuality a +1 weapon of speed or somesuch), without having to drop her entire WBL on the cost.

[ericgrau]

I think rogues need some love too. Also rather than a +3 or +4 enhancement bonus, it's more likely to be a +1 weapon with damage boosts which usually benefits the full BAB fighter more than the medium BAB rogue who often has penalties to hit and bonus damage.

[Curmudgeon]

I think rogues need some love too.
I agree, but that's widening the scope of this topic considerably.

If we're trying to address the weaknesses of martial classes generally (class features which are greatly exceeded in both power and number by the spells that casting classes have available) we need to do so directly.

For the Fighter, their class features mostly are Fighter Bonus Feats. Giving them a FBF at every level still doesn't make the Fighter a good class, but it's in keeping with the basic design and an obvious improvement. Adding the "Professional Courtesy" price breaks on top of that is fine.

The Rogue's special ability options don't appear until level 10, by which time spellcasters have left the martial classes breathing caster dust. Instead of starting at level 10 and every 3 levels thereafter, I propose to start Rogue special ability selections at Rogue level 1 and every 3 levels thereafter. Rogues would also qualify for Savvy Rogue at level 1 instead of 10. There aren't enough special abilities available with 3 added selections, so add Camouflage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/ranger.htm#camouflage) (in any area) and Hide in Plain Sight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/ranger.htm#hideinPlainSight) (in any area) to the list of Rogue special abilities; this still leaves the Rogue (a chance to be unseen with Hide) at some disadvantage vs. spellcasters with Greater Invisibility (unseen with no checks), but it fixes a basic design flaw with the game's supposed archetypal stealthy class. As usual, a Rogue can choose a feat they qualify for in place of a special ability.

Most classes have features that work together to accomplish some defined role; on top of that, feat choices can add versatility. The Monk is an oddity among classes, with features that don't work together. My proposed fix is to leave those unchanged (though still allowing the various ACFs and substitution levels), and add feats that work together. Because the Monk is so greatly disadvantaged compared to spellcasting classes, that necessitates a lot of feats.
Firstly, the Monk gains both Bonus Feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#bonusFeat) selections at levels 1, 2, and 6; or they can choose an Unearthed Arcana fighting style (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#monkVariantFightingSty les) and one of the regular Bonus Feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#bonusFeat) options at each of those levels.
Secondly, the Monk chooses at level 1 a single Dragon Magazine fighting style from Dragon # 309 (pages 64-68) or Dragon # 315 (page 66). Those all have long feat lists. For example, Black Panda fighting style incorporates the following feats: Combat Expertise
Death Blow
Dodge
Extra Stunning Attacks
Falling Star Strike
Freezing the Lifeblood
Distant Touch
Improved Unarmed Strike
Mobility
Pain Touch
Stone Monkey
Stunning Fist
Superior Expertise
Black Panda Mastery I
Black Panda Mastery II
The Monk would be able to take one feat from their chosen Dragon magazine fighting style at every Monk level — but only if they qualify for it.

[P.F.]

I think rogues need some love too

I agree, but I've got something that works for everyone but the fighter. Really, the fighter is the only class that doesn't get some sort of magical, supernatural, or extraordinary abilities to help it keep up, and expanding those abilities by carefully selected inclusions of other rulesets and houserules is really rather trivial. But, while it would be equally easy to load the fighter down with special powers cribbed from other classes, I want to do something more in line with the "guy at the gym" fallacy which applies so particularly to fighters.

With apologies to the wizard build, what I'm looking for is comparable to Batman. He keeps up with his magic-using (i.e. super-powered) counterparts in the Justice League through creative use of comparatively low-tech equipment and his exceptional, but not superhuman, intelligence and athleticism. While a D&D character modeled after Batman might opt for a different class, the analogy is instructive.

[Uncle Pine]

What stops the party spellcaster(s) from raising Fighters, killing them when as soon as they outlive their utility and enjoy their higher wealth?
Or, if you prefer a more human approach, getting extra wealth from scavenging the Fighter's body when she dies and replace her character with Fighter Mk II, a new and improved Fighter with another load of extra items? And do it again when Fighter Mk II, Fighter Mk III and Fighter Mk IV die as well?
What stops a gish who dips Fighter 2 from getting a powerful weapon at half price?

[P.F.]

Or, if you prefer a more human approach, getting extra wealth from scavenging the Fighter's body when she dies and replace her character with Fighter Mk II, a new and improved Fighter with another load of extra items? And do it again when Fighter Mk II, Fighter Mk III and Fighter Mk IV die as well?

My group has already discovered that method, which works regardless of whether the fighter gets a discount or is even a fighter. We have a a gentlemen's agreement not to run that gambit. Some of us will also dock treasure form later encounters to balance the looting of a fallen character whose gear is not lost with them. Good catch, though, I had completely ignored this trick because we never do it anymore.


What stops a gish who dips Fighter 2 from getting a powerful weapon at half price?

Good catch again, I had worded it to allow multiclass fighters, but in retrospect I only really intended it for a fighter/fighter :smallwink:. That last line about the price cap really should read "charater's fighter level" instead of "character's level."


What stops the party spellcaster(s) from raising Fighters, killing them when as soon as they outlive their utility and enjoy their higher wealth?

Hopefully, the party as a whole will object to this and take the issue out of my hands. Otherwise, because I'm the DM, I would probably start by sending a group of professional witch-hunters to kill the caster and burn his body. If that doesn't take, I would negotiate OOC for an agreement like the one above.

Overall, this looks like something that is most abuse-able through NPC's rather than other player characters. The rule is only intended for player characters, although I suppose NPC fighters could have it too. I'll have to think on that one.