Optimized Bladelock vs Optimized Bladesinger duel

[Rajah]

Level 20. Optimized for combat. Melee or spell. Whatever you want. The character dual in a 50 foot by 50 foot room with an open to the sky ceiling.

Wizard must be Bladesinger. Warlock must pick blade but patron is up to you.

Who wins this duel? And is it competitive?

[knight_oflimbo]

Level 20. Optimized for combat. Melee or spell. Whatever you want. The character dual in a 50 foot by 50 foot room with an open to the sky ceiling.

Wizard must be Bladesinger. Warlock must pick blade but patron is up to you.

Who wins this duel? And is it competitive?

Wizard casts wish, wishes the warlock dead.

Fight over.

[Yorrin]

Bladesinger has the edge in AC and spells, Warlock has the advantage on HP and damage as well as having invocations. I'd put it at a slight advantage to the Bladesinger mostly for the spells.

[Rajah]

Wizard casts wish, wishes the warlock dead.

Fight over.

Haha. Not sure the DM would give you this one in a duel.

[EvilAnagram]

It's a tough one. An Infernal Pact Bladelock can deal an insane amount of damage, but the Bladesinger has more spells. So much of it depends on luck. I mean, if the Fiendlock lands a hit and sends the Bladesinger through the hells, the BS is a Power Word Kill away from dying. Of course, the BS should have Counterspell, but unless he uses his 9th level slot that's still a 65% chance of dying.

On the other hand, the Bladesinger can prepare so many save-or-sucks while remaining nigh-untouchable with that AC.

So much luck.

[Rajah]

It's a tough one. An Infernal Pact Bladelock can deal an insane amount of damage, but the Bladesinger has more spells. So much of it depends on luck. I mean, if the Fiendlock lands a hit and sends the Bladesinger through the hells, the BS is a Power Word Kill away from dying. Of course, the BS should have Counterspell, but unless he uses his 9th level slot that's still a 65% chance of dying.

On the other hand, the Bladesinger can prepare so many save-or-sucks while remaining nigh-untouchable with that AC.

So much luck.

Taking into account even luck, you think the Bladesinger has the edge?

[Desamir]

Here's an option:


Bladesinger casts True Polymorph on himself
Bladelock attempts to counterspell it
Bladesinger counter-counterspells and turns into an Ancient Brass Dragon
Bladelock follows suit
Epic dragon fight

[Elite Hatter]

Here's an option:


Bladesinger casts True Polymorph on himself
Bladelock attempts to counterspell it
Bladesinger counter-counterspells and turns into an Ancient Brass Dragon
Bladelock follows suit
Epic dragon fight


I think you just D&D-ized a B/U control mirror match from MTG. Lol

I think in the end, bit full rested, using standard array, BS wins. Higher initiative, and can still use disintegration ray. As well as all the fancy Bladesinger stuff.

[EvilAnagram]

Taking into account even luck, you think the Bladesinger has the edge?

It's difficult to say. The primary benefit of playing a Warlock is that while they have fewer resources (spell slots), their resources replenish. Full casters, however, have more resources, but cannot replenish them throughout the day.

The Bladesinger has an advantage early on in the day, but the Bladelock would have a clear advantage toward the end of the day. In the middle, it's a toss-up.

[Saggo]

Full casters, however, have more resources, but cannot replenish them throughout the day. Wizards, Sorcerers (roundabout), and Land Druids can recover spell slots with a short rest.

[EvilAnagram]

Wizards, Sorcerers (roundabout), and Land Druids can recover spell slots with a short rest.

Most full casters can do that to a limited degree, but not to nearly the same extent as Warlocks. AFB, but I believe a 20th level wizard can recover 10 slots a day, the highest slot being 5th level. That means a maxed wizard can recover two 5th Level slots a day compared to a Warlock's infinite number. Even if the party can't swing a long rest for some reason, a Warlock can keep up.

[Rajah]

I don't want to get into any multiclass shenanigans but do those SCAG can trips like booming blade trigger rogue sneak attack? Is a combat optimized Bladesinger one with a few levels of rogue?

[tieren]

I like the bladelock, barehanded, doing nothing but bouncing the BS off the walls with all the pushing Eldritch blasts. Four blasts a turn is plenty of rolls to get quadruple advantage to get past that AC, disrupt concentration, and knock him into the walls (for potentially more disruption and damage).

[Saggo]

Most full casters can do that to a limited degree, but not to nearly the same extent as Warlocks. AFB, but I believe a 20th level wizard can recover 10 slots a day, the highest slot being 5th level. That means a maxed wizard can recover two 5th Level slots a day compared to a Warlock's infinite number. Even if the party can't swing a long rest for some reason, a Warlock can keep up.

All true. That doesn't mean full casters can't replenish. It's not a binary "Warlocks only", it's a gradient of recovery types with classes all throughout. Worth mentioning that Warlocks only replenish Pact Magic, too.

[Vogonjeltz]

Level 20. Optimized for combat. Melee or spell. Whatever you want. The character dual in a 50 foot by 50 foot room with an open to the sky ceiling.

Wizard must be Bladesinger. Warlock must pick blade but patron is up to you.

Who wins this duel? And is it competitive?

Warlock, they have more hp and (speaking of hp) the Wizard if hurt even a little is vulnerable to power word kill which is a no save no roll death.

[Desamir]

Warlock, they have more hp and (speaking of hp) the Wizard if hurt even a little is vulnerable to power word kill which is a no save no roll death.

Counterspell though.

[EvilAnagram]

Counterspell though.

If the Wizard saves his level 9 slot, he can avoid the PWK, but otherwise he has a 65% chance of failing to counter it. And if he does save his 9th level slot, you just denied him his 9th level slot!

[Troacctid]

You're essentially asking who wins, a Wizard with no arcane tradition or a Warlock with no pact boon. Neither combatant is going to use melee combat at any point during the fight, so their melee abilities are irrelevant to the outcome.

I don't really understand what the purpose of this fight is. Do you want us to run a simulation where we do a bunch of math, crunch the numbers, and find out the probability of a win on each side? What does that prove, exactly?

[Rajah]

You don't have to do any math. If both have to rely on melee and close quarters spell casting, who is better? Very simple.

[Gignere]

BS cast wish, I wish the warlock loses contact with his patron for a day. Lock is now a level 20 commoner, BS wins.

[Nishant]

BS cast wish, I wish the warlock loses contact with his patron for a day. Lock is now a level 20 commoner, BS wins.

I don't think a DM would really allow that, especially in this circumstance. I know I wouldn't. This is a contest of skill, not Dues Ex Machina

[Desamir]

If the Wizard saves his level 9 slot, he can avoid the PWK, but otherwise he has a 65% chance of failing to counter it. And if he does save his 9th level slot, you just denied him his 9th level slot!

If the Warlock chooses Power Word: Kill for his 9th level spell, it's an auto-loss for the Warlock. He still has to spend at least one turn poking the Wizard to get him below 100, which gives the Wizard a turn to cast True Polymorph and turn into an Ancient Brass Dragon.

[Gignere]

I don't think a DM would really allow that, especially in this circumstance. I know I wouldn't. This is a contest of skill, not Dues Ex Machina

Honestly the BS is strong, but the reason it is strong has nothing to do with blade song. The wizard chassis is just really powerful especially at level 20. How is using the right spell to target the right weakness not skill? A warlock's weakness is that all his power flows from a patron, sever that link even for a day the lock is SoL.

[Nishant]

Honestly the BS is strong, but the reason it is strong has nothing to do with blade song. The wizard chassis is just really powerful especially at level 20. How is using the right spell to target the right weakness not skill? A warlock's weakness is that all his power flows from a patron, sever that link even for a day the lock is SoL.

Because of what you're saying. "I wish the Cleric can't contact their deity!" "I wish the wizard can't cast spells"
remember that the DM can decide that the wish is only partially done or whether it works or not. Wish is a stupidly powerful spell, and they have to be very careful when balancing it.

[Gilphon]

Mhm. And it's hardly 'using the right spell to target a weakness'. Any class can theoretically be shut down by a Wish like that- 'I wish the Fighter couldn't remember how to fight', 'I wish the Sorcerer couldn't access his power', 'I wish the Druid was cut off from the land'.

And, if we're using Wish, all of that stuff is overthinking it. Just go with 'I wish the warlock was dead'.

[Gignere]

Because of what you're saying. "I wish the Cleric can't contact their deity!" "I wish the wizard can't cast spells"
remember that the DM can decide that the wish is only partially done or whether it works or not. Wish is a stupidly powerful spell, and they have to be very careful when balancing it.

You have your answer BS beats warlock because level 20 wizard beats level 20 warlock due to stupidly powerful spell. Done we answered the OP. Also I hope I don't see another level 20 vs level 20 thread again.

[EvilAnagram]

Any strategy that relies on Wish is an I-Win button. Wish is the only truly overpowered spell in the game. Even True Polymorph can be countered in multiple ways, but Wish is a free pass to do whatever you want. A battle between a Sorcerer and a Wizard is just who gets to cast Wish first according to that strategy.

Any discussion of capabilities in combat should necessarily exclude the spell that lets you win if it happens.

[Gignere]

Any strategy that relies on Wish is an I-Win button. Wish is the only truly overpowered spell in the game. Even True Polymorph can be countered in multiple ways, but Wish is a free pass to do whatever you want. A battle between a Sorcerer and a Wizard is just who gets to cast Wish first according to that strategy.

Any discussion of capabilities in combat should necessarily exclude the spell that lets you win if it happens.

The OP could have asked about an optimized level 12 BS vs level 12 blade lock. Then wish wouldn't come into play. However, if you are going to ask about a level where wish is a factor how can it be not part of the discussion?

[Nishant]

You have your answer BS beats warlock because level 20 wizard beats level 20 warlock due to stupidly powerful spell. Done we answered the OP. Also I hope I don't see another level 20 vs level 20 thread again.

You cast wish; But your wish has too traumatic an effect- by severing the connection to their patron, the Patron turns it's eye upon you. it strips away your casting and targets you for trying to disrupt it's plans with a favored subject (Level 20's are rare and stupid strong.) You now have to deal with a being of Godlike power, and on it's own turn, it wipes you from existence.

Once again- You can't use wish in this because of it's broad nature. Each DM will decide how your wish works differently, if it works at all. Polymorph is fine because it has a direct point to it. PWK as well. I know plenty of DMs that ban wish for the same reason others ban the deck of many things.

And before you say 'wish still wins', RAW says that 'The DM has great latitude in complying with your request'. And it includes "your wish just fails."

[Gignere]

You cast wish; But your wish has too traumatic an effect- by severing the connection to their patron, the Patron turns it's eye upon you. it strips away your casting and targets you for trying to disrupt it's plans with a favored subject (Level 20's are rare and stupid strong.) You now have to deal with a being of Godlike power, and on it's own turn, it wipes you from existence.

Once again- You can't use wish in this because of it's broad nature. Each DM will decide how your wish works differently, if it works at all. Polymorph is fine because it has a direct point to it. PWK as well. I know plenty of DMs that ban wish for the same reason others ban the deck of many things.

Every optimized wizard guide tells you to pick wish. How can an optimized level 20 BS not have wish?

[Nishant]

Every optimized wizard guide tells you to pick wish. How can an optimized level 20 BS not have wish?

When your DM says 'I don't want that spell in my game.' You can be more creative with your spell list. In fact, its encouraged that you do so.

[Gignere]

When your DM says 'I don't want that spell in my game.' You can be more creative with your spell list. In fact, its encouraged that you do so.

Those aren't the rules set by the OP. Just optimized vs optimized and it is no contest.

[Gilphon]

It is not no contest, though- Wish can backfire in as many horrible ways as the DM is capable of thinking up, which makes it a bit too risky in this context.

Though it's worth noting that the official sanctioned uses for Wish- most notably as mimicking the effect of any 8th or lower spell- means it's still the best choice. It's just not the 'I win' button you're painting it as.

[Nishant]

Then read the entire spell. Recognize that the spell has that side note, and hope for the best, but assume the worst, especially if your use of the spell isn't in the RAW use of it.

[Gignere]

Then read the entire spell. Recognize that the spell has that side note, and hope for the best, but assume the worst, especially if your use of the spell isn't in the RAW use of it. Use it to cast simulacrum and chances are the BS will win, now it is a 2 on 1 fight.

[Corran]

Use it to cast simulacrum and chances are the BS will win, now it is a 2 on 1 fight.Using it to cast simulacrum as an action, would fall under the non trivial category regarding the usage of this spell, so that comes at the same more or less risk than wishing the BS dead.

[Gignere]

Using it to cast simulacrum as an action, would fall under the non trivial category regarding the usage of this spell, so that comes at the same more or less risk than wishing the BS dead.

I believe the RAW contradicts this:

The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower. You don't need to meet any requirements of the spell, including costly components. The spell simply takes effect.

I think the bolded portion includes casting time.

[Nishant]

Using it to cast simulacrum as an action, would fall under the non trivial category regarding the usage of this spell, so that comes at the same more or less risk than wishing the BS dead.

And if it has, say, around 60 HP, a round or two of eldritch blasts will decimate it, assuming A) The simulacrum wouldn't immediately get an action after being formed, and B) The warlock has agonizing blast and 20 cha. following raw, the simulacrum would likely have 40-70 HP, the max being 110 if you have a con of 20 and rolled 6 20 times.

[Nishant]

I believe the RAW contradicts this:

The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower. You don't need to meet any requirements of the spell, including costly components. The spell simply takes effect.

I think the bolded portion includes casting time.

That's how I'd read it as well.. and given simulacrum is 7th level, I'd wave it to say you have some wiggle room even if it wasn't real clear.
'Simply takes effect' should negate casting time.

Edit: I can be fair. :)

[Gignere]

And if it has, say, around 60 HP, a round or two of eldritch blasts will decimate it, assuming A) The simulacrum wouldn't immediately get an action after being formed, and B) The warlock has agonizing blast and 20 cha. following raw, the simulacrum would likely have 40-70 HP, the max being 110 if you have a con of 20 and rolled 6 20 times.

Like all other summon spells it is likely that it gets to act on the initiative it comes into existence. Simulacrum bladesong and casts feeblemind DC 19 int save, blade lock tries to counter spell but you counter spell his counter spell so he is likely done. Optimized blade lock would dump int, lol. So game over and like I said BS is strong because wizard is strong.

[Corran]

I believe the RAW contradicts this:

The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower. You don't need to meet any requirements of the spell, including costly components. The spell simply takes effect.

I think the bolded portion includes casting time.
So very true, you are right!

[Sigreid]

BS cast wish, I wish the warlock loses contact with his patron for a day. Lock is now a level 20 commoner, BS wins.

This doesn't jive with the fluff as written. The Warlock description says the patron shares ancient, secret knowledge with the warlock. I don't recall it saying anything about the patron having to grant the power like a cleric or being able to shut off power already learned.

[Gignere]

This doesn't jive with the fluff as written. The Warlock description says the patron shares ancient, secret knowledge with the warlock. I don't recall it saying anything about the patron having to grant the power like a cleric or being able to shut off power already learned.

Doesn't matter the consensus banned this use of wish. See my simulacrum strategy instead should still win against bladelock.

[Nishant]

I should make the point that I think wizard should win, I'm just playing hardball devil's advocate. That being said, Gignere, you need to work on how you set up your posts. You come off as, perhaps unintentionally, brash, rude, and insulting to a degree. I don't think you mean to, but It should be something you're aware of.

Edit: narrowing it down; Your observations are correct, but the 'this is it lol' stuff is a bit rude

Edit 2; we keep assuming that BS will go first. if Bladelock goes first, it can cast imprisonment, use the slumber option, and just walk up and kill the wizard. They can counterspell to get out of it, but then they can't use wish.

[Gignere]

I should make the point that I think wizard should win, I'm just playing hardball devil's advocate. That being said, Gignere, you need to work on how you set up your posts. You come off as, perhaps unintentionally, brash, rude, and insulting to a degree. I don't think you mean to, but It should be something you're aware of.

Edit: narrowing it down; Your observations are correct, but the 'this is it lol' stuff is a bit rude

I was laughing at the irony that an optimized bladelock is weaker against a 20 level wizard than an unoptimized one. Basically every optimized warlock guide recommends dumping int.

[Nishant]

I was laughing at the irony that an optimized bladelock is weaker against a 20 level wizard than an unoptimized one. Basically every optimized warlock guide recommends dumping int.

Fair point. I retract my statement and apologize for misreading the situation.

Seriously though, just for sake of scenario- say warlock goes first, uses imprisonment; slumber. what then? at the very least, he can burn the counterspell and, possibly, Wish. that should even the playing field considerably

[Gignere]

Edit 2; we keep assuming that BS will go first. if Bladelock goes first, it can cast imprisonment, use the slumber option, and just walk up and kill the wizard. They can counterspell to get out of it, but then they can't use wish.

Imprisonment has 1 min cast time. Even if blade lock wins initiative, the BS could take a nap for 9 rounds and still win.

Edit: Basically the warlock spell list is so inferior to the wizard's there just isn't a good enough opening move that the bladelock can make to lock down a win. None of their level 9 options which is the only one that can potentially block wish, due to burning level 9 counterspell can threaten the wizard. Anything less than level 9 will be counter spelled by wizard and he still has wish left.

[Nishant]

Imprisonment has 1 min cast time. Even if blade lock wins initiative, the BS could take a nap for 9 rounds and still win.

Edit: Basically the warlock spell list is so inferior to the wizard's there just isn't a good enough opening move that the bladelock can make to lock down a win. None of their level 9 options which is the only one that can potentially block wish, due to burning level 9 counterspell can threaten the wizard. Anything less than level 9 will be counter spelled by wizard and he still has wish left.

It's really sorta disappointing, in a manner of speaking- no matter what they do, wizard just becomes this tier 1 god class later on. There's no good way to get around it. Been that way as long as I can remember.

[Troacctid]

You don't have to do any math. If both have to rely on melee and close quarters spell casting, who is better? Very simple.

You want to know who wins. Well then the answer is the Wizard wins some of the time, and the Warlock wins some of the time, and usually whoever wins initiative will win the fight, so it's close to 50/50. You want to know who wins more often? Then you have math to do.

There is no likely scenario in which both parties use melee attacks while they still have spell slots remaining, barring an encounter in a dead magic zone.

[Rajah]

It's interesting that the warlock can hang with the versatility of a wizard.

[kaoskonfety]

Open field at 60 paces at Dawn in a pre-arranged duel?
Wizard will win most of the time - it's a distance from 100% (we will likely not agree on how much distance), but they have the sizable edge when both are fully rested with no expectation of getting jumped later in the day. More spells, more high level options, spell preperation. Warlock has no hard counters on these and will need some degree of luck to land something solid.

They are on opposite sides of the planet and are instilled with a growing compusion to murder each other before the year ends?
Too many variables, WAY too many variables, including VAST disagreements on what "optimized" means

The various "in betweens"?
Who the hell knows

An honest to gods "duel"? Raipers at dawn?
we would need rules... clearly magic is "Allowed" otherwise this is silly, but what magic?

"No magics can touch your foe" - no offensive spells (attack rolls or saves) or De-buffs of any kind (is countering ok? You can cast fire wall but not ON the guy?)
"No magics shall stop the duel" - no prismatic sphere, no Tiny Hut, magnificent mansion, no teleporting to the other side of the world - maybe a sphere they cannot leave (THUNDERDOME!), a fight in 3 dimensions obviously, and quite large, but "bounds". Call it 100' diameter ball or 100' sided cube? Allow tactical transportation but no "I'm gone now" distances? Big enough that wall of force and similar can be used without "ending the duel"?
- This gets interesting and might be loosely "solvable" using peak DPR/AC/HP comparisons.

[Vogonjeltz]

BS cast wish, I wish the warlock loses contact with his patron for a day. Lock is now a level 20 commoner, BS wins.

That isn't even logical according to the lore behind a warlock. The pact is so that their patron teaches them new things, that's it, all that wish might do is prevent them from leveling up for a day.

Also, there are no such things as level 20 NPC classes in 5e

[Rajah]

Open field at 60 paces at Dawn in a pre-arranged duel?
Wizard will win most of the time - it's a distance from 100% (we will likely not agree on how much distance), but they have the sizable edge when both are fully rested with no expectation of getting jumped later in the day. More spells, more high level options, spell preperation. Warlock has no hard counters on these and will need some degree of luck to land something solid.

They are on opposite sides of the planet and are instilled with a growing compusion to murder each other before the year ends?
Too many variables, WAY too many variables, including VAST disagreements on what "optimized" means

The various "in betweens"?
Who the hell knows

An honest to gods "duel"? Raipers at dawn?
we would need rules... clearly magic is "Allowed" otherwise this is silly, but what magic?

"No magics can touch your foe" - no offensive spells (attack rolls or saves) or De-buffs of any kind (is countering ok? You can cast fire wall but not ON the guy?)
"No magics shall stop the duel" - no prismatic sphere, no Tiny Hut, magnificent mansion, no teleporting to the other side of the world - maybe a sphere they cannot leave (THUNDERDOME!), a fight in 3 dimensions obviously, and quite large, but "bounds". Call it 100' diameter ball or 100' sided cube? Allow tactical transportation but no "I'm gone now" distances? Big enough that wall of force and similar can be used without "ending the duel"?
- This gets interesting and might be loosely "solvable" using peak DPR/AC/HP comparisons.

When I made the thread, I was thinking 60 paces, rapiers and magic. No magic to stop the duel for any reason. Offensive spells are a go, tactical teleportation is fine. Buffs, debuffs, and counters are fine.

[kaoskonfety]

When I made the thread, I was thinking 60 paces, rapiers and magic. No magic to stop the duel for any reason. Offensive spells are a go, tactical teleportation is fine. Buffs, debuffs, and counters are fine.

The problem, as highlighted: then there will be no rapiers. The fight will be over long before either runs out of spells/invocations and, even if you do manage to use all your slots, by level 20 attack cantrips will usually be a better option than any piece of steel unless you have very deliberately have ignored any optimization on your attack spell damage.

[EvilAnagram]

The problem, as highlighted: then there will be no rapiers. The fight will be over long before either runs out of spells/invocations and, even if you do manage to use all your slots, by level 20 attack cantrips will usually be a better option than any piece of steel unless you have very deliberately have ignored any optimization on your attack spell damage.

The Booming Blade and Greenflame Blade cantrips are probably the most damaging, save optimized Eldritch Blast, and they make ample use of rapiers.

[kaoskonfety]

The Booming Blade and Greenflame Blade cantrips are probably the most damaging, save optimized Eldritch Blast, and they make ample use of rapiers.

On closer review of these (never really dug into them before cause I keep my casters at range mostly) these would result in more possible swordplay. But I'm still really not sure if it would come up at all in the bulk of these combats as I'd assume most will be over long before the Warlock is out of daily invocations and 5th level spells for their actions or the wizard is out of hold person and up. And the damage on these VS Firebolt/EB is not going to see TOO much damage difference (unless I'm insane and am missing something? Great weapon master/Polearm master shenanigans I'd assume?)

[Gignere]

On closer review of these (never really dug into them before cause I keep my casters at range mostly) these would result in more possible swordplay. But I'm still really not sure if it would come up at all in the bulk of these combats as I'd assume most will be over long before the Warlock is out of daily invocations and 5th level spells for their actions or the wizard is out of hold person and up. And the damage on these VS Firebolt/EB is not going to see TOO much damage difference (unless I'm insane and am missing something? Great weapon master/Polearm master shenanigans I'd assume?)

The fight is over in the first round, if wizard goes first cast wish-->simulacrum. Simulacrum casts feeble mind, warlock counter spells or tries too since he can only cast it as a level 5 spell, but wizard auto counterspells warlock's counter spell. DC 19 on a dump stat and no proficiency save lock needs a natural 20 to save. Lock is done.

If lock wins initiative, all he can do is cast one of the wis save disable and pray his counterspell can counterspell the wizard's level 7 or 8 counter spell, even if the spell goes through you are targeting a proficient save for a wizard so chances are good wiz will make the save. Wizard's turn wish ---simulacrum and win. So absent of some really lucky rolls on the lock's part the wizard has this in the bag. At least it isn't a diviner, a lock has 0 chance against a diviner.

[Waazraath]

I don't understand all the wish/simulacrum mentions. It's one of those silly things the designer looked over, and each and every thread on this an other fora mentioning this combo also has 99%, if not 100%, of the people saying this is technical optimization that never sees play. In a comparison between two classes, it's hardly a strong argument for one of them.

[Gignere]

I don't understand all the wish/simulacrum mentions. It's one of those silly things the designer looked over, and each and every thread on this an other fora mentioning this combo also has 99%, if not 100%, of the people saying this is technical optimization that never sees play. In a comparison between two classes, it's hardly a strong argument for one of them.

Wish simulacrum is not strictly necessary it is but insurance the wizard just needs to cast feeble mind and counterspell locks counterspell, it is a 95% of winning right there already. The wish ---> simulacrum just makes it close to 100%.

[Malifice]

I believe the RAW contradicts this:

The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower. You don't need to meet any requirements of the spell, including costly components. The spell simply takes effect.

I think the bolded portion includes casting time.

Depends on your DMs interpretation of it though doesn't it? Means monkey paw happens when the DM says it happens.

I'd probably let it slide myself. Id want to hear a precise wording of the wish from the wizard in question though, and would certainly reserve the right to twist it due to a poorly worded one.

The only thing that can safely said about wish is that its very DM dependent in an already DM dependent game. Use at your own peril and all that.

[Desamir]

Depends on your DMs interpretation of it though doesn't it? Means monkey paw happens when the DM says it happens.

I'd probably let it slide myself. Id want to hear a precise wording of the wish from the wizard in question though, and would certainly reserve the right to twist it due to a poorly worded one.

The only thing that can safely said about wish is that its very DM dependent in an already DM dependent game. Use at your own peril and all that.

There is no monkey paw effect when you're using it to cast a lower level spell. That is the one situation where Wish "just works."

[Malifice]

There is no monkey paw effect when you're using it to cast a lower level spell. That is the one situation where Wish "just works."

Not true. It depends on the DM's interpretation of: 'You might be able to achieve something beyond the scope of the above examples.'

Its left to the DM to interpret what is something 'beyond the scope of the above examples' and trigger monkey paw. Even something that technically conforms to the stated examples of the spell might be ruled by the DM to be beyond the intended scope of the example.

There is a general inference in the spell (and in DnD cannon) that wish is a dangerous spell, and not to be trifled with willy nilly.

Generally of course you get what you wish for, as long as its reasonable and in line with the examples stated (subject to the wording of your wish). There certainly is scope for a DM to intervene if he smells abuse though.

Wish is like that.

[Corran]

Not true. It depends on the DM's interpretation of: 'You might be able to achieve something beyond the scope of the above examples.'

Its left to the DM to interpret what is something 'beyond the scope of the above examples' and trigger monkey paw. Even something that technically conforms to the stated examples of the spell might be ruled by the DM to be beyond the intended scope of the example.

There is a general inference in the spell (and in DnD cannon) that wish is a dangerous spell, and not to be trifled with willy nilly.

Generally of course you get what you wish for, as long as its reasonable and in line with the examples stated (subject to the wording of your wish). There certainly is scope for a DM to intervene if he smells abuse though.

Wish is like that.
Nah, no risk in using wish to duplicate a lower level spell. At least not by RAW. That is he basic use of the spell which will always work.


ps: having second thoughts about the whole wish simulacrum thing. Does the casting time of a spell lie under the ''meeting the requirements of the spell'' umbrella?

[Malifice]

Nah, no risk in using wish to duplicate a lower level spell. At least not by RAW. That is he basic use of the spell which will always work.

So you keep saying, but you're wrong.

Trust me. Different DM's interpret that passage differently.

I dont want to get postmodern on you, but RAW doesnt exist.

[Desamir]

Not true. It depends on the DM's interpretation of: 'You might be able to achieve something beyond the scope of the above examples.'

Its left to the DM to interpret what is something 'beyond the scope of the above examples' and trigger monkey paw. Even something that technically conforms to the stated examples of the spell might be ruled by the DM to be beyond the intended scope of the example.

There is a general inference in the spell (and in DnD cannon) that wish is a dangerous spell, and not to be trifled with willy nilly.

Generally of course you get what you wish for, as long as its reasonable and in line with the examples stated (subject to the wording of your wish). There certainly is scope for a DM to intervene if he smells abuse though.

Wish is like that.

The text of the wish spell heavily, heavily implies that duplicating a lower level spell cannot backfire and is not subject to DM latitude.


The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower.

Alternatively, you can create one of the following effects of your choice:

[list of examples]

You might be able to achieve something beyond the scope of the above examples. State your wish to the DM as precisely as possible. The DM has great latitude in ruling what occurs in such an instance; the greater the wish, the greater the likelihood that something goes wrong.

The stress of casting this spell to produce any effect other than duplicating another spell weakens you.

Duplicating a lower level spell is explicitly the purpose of wish. Anything else is up to the DM, but that is literally what the spell does when you cast it, in the same way that a Fireball deals 8d6 in a 20-foot-radius.

[Malifice]

The text of the wish spell heavily, heavily implies that duplicating a lower level spell cannot backfire and is not subject to DM latitude.



Duplicating a lower level spell is explicitly the purpose of wish. Anything else is up to the DM, but that is literally what the spell does when you cast it, in the same way that a Fireball deals 8d6 in a 20-foot-radius.

I understand your argument, but I refute it.

Its explicitly left up to the DM to determine whether your stated use of the wish spell falls into one of those examples.

Take Simulacrum. Its an 8th level spell, so is (broadly speaking) fair game. However, using Wish to create a simulacum army, or to bypass the normal limits of the simulacrum spell, is (by inference) not.

As a DM, I would likely ask for a worded wish in this instance. I would turn to the player, and state: 'OK - You have six seconds (you're doing it in combat) to word your wish. Time starts... now'.

And then sit back and laugh as the color drains from his face as his mind works furiously to come up with a good wording that doesnt leave him with a slightly perverted wish.

Wish is like that. It should be used sparingly. Ask Karsus.

[Gignere]

I understand your argument, but I refute it.

Its explicitly left up to the DM to determine whether your stated use of the wish spell falls into one of those examples.

Take Simulacrum. Its an 8th level spell, so is (broadly speaking) fair game. However, using Wish to create a simulacum army, or to bypass the normal limits of the simulacrum spell, is (by inference) not.

As a DM, I would likely ask for a worded wish in this instance. I would turn to the player, and state: 'OK - You have six seconds (you're doing it in combat) to word your wish. Time starts... now'.

And then sit back and laugh as the color drains from his face as his mind works furiously to come up with a good wording that doesnt leave him with a slightly perverted wish.

Wish is like that. It should be used sparingly. Ask Karsus.

First simulacrum is a level 7 spell. Duplicating a lower level spell is the RAW use of wish. A DM can rule it into uselessness, but that is house ruling territory. Anyway like I said even without Wish the wizard is still the overwhelming favorite to win. Wish ---> simulacrum just makes it guaranteed.

[PoeticDwarf]

Level 20. Optimized for combat. Melee or spell. Whatever you want. The character dual in a 50 foot by 50 foot room with an open to the sky ceiling.

Wizard must be Bladesinger. Warlock must pick blade but patron is up to you.

Who wins this duel? And is it competitive?

The bladesinger because the bladesinger has level 9 wizard spells...
If it is about combat, still the bladesinger, damage and HP is some higher by the bladelock but bladesinger has with shield and bladesinging 20+ AC

[Ace Jackson]

Every optimized wizard guide tells you to pick wish. How can an optimized level 20 BS not have wish?

By DM houserule and/or the wizard lost the ability to cast wish by the exhaustion clause of wish. For instance, he relied on this technique to wipe the 20th level ranger who was sniping him and hit that 33% chance to never be able to use it again.

Edit: Poor taste and missed pages of content. In light of recent simulacrum argument, this is rescinded.

[Malifice]

Duplicating a lower level spell is the RAW use of wish. A DM can rule it into uselessness, but that is house ruling territory. Anyway like I said even without Wish the wizard is still the overwhelming favorite to win. Wish ---> simulacrum just makes it guaranteed.

Having an interpretation that differs from yours is not a houserule.

The RAW gives the DM the scope to rule that even though you are using wish to cast a 7th level spell, that its sufficiently outside the intent of that useage.

You might not like it, but thats wish for you.

Also, RAW doesnt exist. Google postmodernism. Also: 5E.

[Corran]

Having an interpretation that differs from yours is not a houserule.
Could be, if your interpretation was wrong. Just saying...

[Malifice]

Could be, if your interpretation was wrong. Just saying...

There is objective truth in texts?

Postmodnernists around the world disagree with you.

[Corran]

There is objective truth in texts?

Postmodnernists around the world disagree with you.
You got me really curious. Ok, I am googling these stuff to educate myself!:smallsmile:

[Malifice]

You got me really curious. Ok, I am googling these stuff to educate myself!:smallsmile:


http://www.allaboutworldview.org/postmodern-philosophy.htm


Postmodern Philosophy – Subjective Truth

One of the themes in Postmodern philosophy is a denial of universal, objective truth. This is clearly declared in Jean- Francois Lyotard’s famous statement “incredulity towards metanarrative.”4 A metanarrative refers to a unifying story that seeks to explain how the world is—in other words a metanarrative is a worldview. Lyotard suggests that we should be skeptical of such broad explanations. For example, the statement “God so loved the world” is nonsensical to Postmodernists for two reasons: (1) they deny the existence of God, and (2) statements reflecting the whole world (metanarratives) are impossible.

For Postmodernists, since there is no universal Truth (capital “T”), there are only “truths” (small “t”) that are particular to a society or group of people and limited to individual perception. Written or verbal statements can reflect only a particular localized culture or individual point of view. A well-worn catchphrase we hear in this regard is, “That may be true for you, but not for me.”

Relevant to the discussion of RAW. To a postmodernist, there is no such thing as RAW. Only RAI (In this case the 'I' is: Rules as interpreted).

Its major criticism is its position that 'There is no universal truth... aside from postmodernism' which is a self defeating paradigm.

I just saved you 5 years of university there :)

[EvilAnagram]

http://www.allaboutworldview.org/postmodern-philosophy.htm



Relevant to the discussion of RAW. To a postmodernist, there is no such thing as RAW. Only RAI (In this case the 'I' is: Rules as interpreted).

Its major criticism is its position that 'There is no universal truth... aside from postmodernism' which is a self defeating paradigm.

I just saved you 5 years of university there :)

Applying postmodern readings of a text to a rulebook in order to further an argument that the text means the opposite of what it says strikes me as slightly disingenuous.

Or does it?

[kaoskonfety]

Applying postmodern readings of a text to a rulebook in order to further an argument that the text means the opposite of what it says strikes me as slightly disingenuous.

Or does it?

We literally can never know...

[Vogonjeltz]

The fight is over in the first round, if wizard goes first cast wish-->simulacrum. Simulacrum casts feeble mind, warlock counter spells or tries too since he can only cast it as a level 5 spell, but wizard auto counterspells warlock's counter spell. DC 19 on a dump stat and no proficiency save lock needs a natural 20 to save. Lock is done.

If lock wins initiative, all he can do is cast one of the wis save disable and pray his counterspell can counterspell the wizard's level 7 or 8 counter spell, even if the spell goes through you are targeting a proficient save for a wizard so chances are good wiz will make the save. Wizard's turn wish ---simulacrum and win. So absent of some really lucky rolls on the lock's part the wizard has this in the bag. At least it isn't a diviner, a lock has 0 chance against a diviner.

Simulacra have no equipment.

Feeblemind has a material component, a new simulacra is incapable of casting Feeblemind as it lacks the materia or an arcane focus as a substitute for a non-valuable / non-consumed materia.

So this simply doesn't work.


The bladesinger because the bladesinger has level 9 wizard spells...
If it is about combat, still the bladesinger, damage and HP is some higher by the bladelock but bladesinger has with shield and bladesinging 20+ AC

And the Warlock has level a Mystic Arcanum, a spell of the 9th level. One of those spells is Power Word Kill which has a break point of 100 hit points. Interestingly, a Wizard with a low constitution modifier (of which a Bladesinger is a perfect example as it needs both Intelligence and Dexterity and so will be incapable of reaching 20 in both 'and' having more than a +1 constitution modifier) is going to average 102 hit points. If the Wizard takes any damage, we're looking at an insta-gib by the Warlock. A Warlock can also have Power Word Stun (8th level) that operates off 150 hit points, well in excess of the average hp of a Wizard.

All a Warlock would need to do is have previously cast Darkness on some item he could uncover using his free interaction with an object, rendering him immune to counterspelling, and then stun the Bladesinger, do a hit of some kind, then power word kill.

If the Bladesinger doesn't have Truesight up prior to the Warlock's turn in this scenario he automatically loses.

So I'd call it a close matchup, very dependent on spell choices by both characters, circumstances, and also initiative.

[Desamir]

Interestingly, a Wizard with a low constitution modifier (of which a Bladesinger is a perfect example as it needs both Intelligence and Dexterity and so will be incapable of reaching 20 in both 'and' having more than a +1 constitution modifier)

How so? As a high elf you can start with 16/15/16 in Dex/Con/Int and end 20/16/20 with 4 ASIs and Resilient (Con). That's a +3 as well as con save proficiency, 142 HP.


All a Warlock would need to do is have previously cast Darkness on some item he could uncover using his free interaction with an object, rendering him immune to counterspelling, and then stun the Bladesinger, do a hit of some kind, then power word kill.

If the Bladesinger doesn't have Truesight up prior to the Warlock's turn in this scenario he automatically loses.

Ah, but now you're casting a spell before the fight starts. If you allow that, then you're opening the door for things like Simulacrum and Contingency. Allowing prep time just pushes it more in favor of the Wizard.

Power Word Kill is a very risky choice. If the Bladesinger wins initiative, he True Polymorphs himself into an Ancient Brass Dragon, making PWK useless and putting the Warlock up against a CR20 dragon with 3 legendary saves. If the Warlock wins initiative, he has to figure out a way to delay the Wizard a full turn, which is nearly impossible since the Wizard has Counterspell and can cast it with a 6th+ level slot, making it difficult to stop.

[Gignere]

Simulacra have no equipment.

Feeblemind has a material component, a new simulacra is incapable of casting Feeblemind as it lacks the materia or an arcane focus as a substitute for a non-valuable / non-consumed materia.

So this simply doesn't work.



And the Warlock has level a Mystic Arcanum, a spell of the 9th level. One of those spells is Power Word Kill which has a break point of 100 hit points. Interestingly, a Wizard with a low constitution modifier (of which a Bladesinger is a perfect example as it needs both Intelligence and Dexterity and so will be incapable of reaching 20 in both 'and' having more than a +1 constitution modifier) is going to average 102 hit points. If the Wizard takes any damage, we're looking at an insta-gib by the Warlock. A Warlock can also have Power Word Stun (8th level) that operates off 150 hit points, well in excess of the average hp of a Wizard.

All a Warlock would need to do is have previously cast Darkness on some item he could uncover using his free interaction with an object, rendering him immune to counterspelling, and then stun the Bladesinger, do a hit of some kind, then power word kill.

If the Bladesinger doesn't have Truesight up prior to the Warlock's turn in this scenario he automatically loses.

So I'd call it a close matchup, very dependent on spell choices by both characters, circumstances, and also initiative.

Well if I was the wizard I will go into the fight with both a component pouch and arcane focus. Cast Wish simulacrum free action pass over arcane focus and voila two casters. Also wizard can easily counter spell power kill or stun. If the blade lock doesn't disable the wizard in the first round the fight is over, and there is no spell that the blade lock can cast that isn't automatically counter spelled by the wizard. Whereas the lock will have to roll to counterspell the wizard. The lock has a tiny chance of winning if he wins initiative. If locks loses initiative he will lose for sure. So the BS is the overwhelming favorite to win the duel.

Edit: Don't say no wizard carries both a component pouch and focus. My level 3 wizard has 2 arcane focus and 2 component pouch at all times. I am paranoid.

[Vogonjeltz]

How so? As a high elf you can start with 16/15/16 in Dex/Con/Int and end 20/16/20 with 4 ASIs and Resilient (Con). That's a +3 as well as con save proficiency, 142 HP.

Only if you are quite lucky or use the variant of customizing ability scores. The standard methods do not allow this level of choice.


Ah, but now you're casting a spell before the fight starts. If you allow that, then you're opening the door for things like Simulacrum and Contingency. Allowing prep time just pushes it more in favor of the Wizard.

Power Word Kill is a very risky choice. If the Bladesinger wins initiative, he True Polymorphs himself into an Ancient Brass Dragon, making PWK useless and putting the Warlock up against a CR20 dragon with 3 legendary saves. If the Warlock wins initiative, he has to figure out a way to delay the Wizard a full turn, which is nearly impossible since the Wizard has Counterspell and can cast it with a 6th+ level slot, making it difficult to stop.

True Polymorph is also a 9th level spell making it impossible to wish a simulacrum. It's also entirely vulnerable to disruption by damage and dispel magic.

And tp doesn't grant legendary abilities.


Well if I was the wizard I will go into the fight with both a component pouch and arcane focus. Cast Wish simulacrum free action pass over arcane focus and voila two casters. Also wizard can easily counter spell power kill or stun. If the blade lock doesn't disable the wizard in the first round the fight is over, and there is no spell that the blade lock can cast that isn't automatically counter spelled by the wizard. Whereas the lock will have to roll to counterspell the wizard. The lock has a tiny chance of winning if he wins initiative. If locks loses initiative he will lose for sure. So the BS is the overwhelming favorite to win the duel.

Edit: Don't say no wizard carries both a component pouch and focus. My level 3 wizard has 2 arcane focus and 2 component pouch at all times. I am paranoid.

Congratulations! You've metagamed a response in the same way a DM might metagame that a monster just really feels that the illusory wall just cast must be fake, and not actually a stone shaped wall.

[Gignere]

Only if you are quite lucky or use the variant of customizing ability scores. The standard methods do not allow this level of choice.



True Polymorph is also a 9th level spell making it impossible to wish a simulacrum. It's also entirely vulnerable to disruption by damage and dispel magic.

And tp doesn't grant legendary abilities.



Congratulations! You've metagamed a response in the same way a DM might metagame that a monster just really feels that the illusory wall just cast must be fake, and not actually a stone shaped wall.

It's actually more unbelievable that a 20 int character basically smarter than any living human can possibly achieve intending to use simulacrum via wish would not have both a spell component pouch and an arcane focus. Not like a 20 level character can't afford a warehouse of both.

[Vogonjeltz]

It's actually more unbelievable that a 20 int character basically smarter than any living human can possibly achieve intending to use simulacrum via wish would not have both a spell component pouch and an arcane focus. Not like a 20 level character can't afford a warehouse of both.

It would have been wise to have thought of such a potential problem in advance.

A pity wizards are known for their intelligence and not their wisdom

[Nishant]

It would have been wise to have thought of such a potential problem in advance.

A pity wizards are known for their intelligence and not their wisdom

And then we get back into wish wierdness~ Now that you have altered the simulacrum spell, you are now in line with it's penalties- you're no longer just asking for simulacrum, and thus will be taking the necrotic damage from spells then on. Your simulacrum as well, as it is an exact clone of you, would therefore suffer your debuffs. Your simulcrum will cast a high level spell and likely kill itself in the process :(

[Desamir]

Only if you are quite lucky or use the variant of customizing ability scores. The standard methods do not allow this level of choice.

Adventurers League, as well as most people around here, consider point buy to be the standard method.


True Polymorph is also a 9th level spell making it impossible to wish a simulacrum. It's also entirely vulnerable to disruption by damage and dispel magic.

Dispel Magic costs an action and one of the Warlock's four spell slots, and has a 65% chance of failing. The Wizard has +9 con saves and will auto-succeed concentration checks against Eldritch Blast (which is the only thing you can hit the dragon with while it's up in the air).


And tp doesn't grant legendary abilities.

Of course it does. Why wouldn't it?

[Gignere]

It would have been wise to have thought of such a potential problem in advance.

A pity wizards are known for their intelligence and not their wisdom

Too bad wisdom is not a dump stat for a wizard, and an average human like me have the foresight to carry both a spell component pouch and an arcane focus on my level 3 wizard, I just don't see how a 20 wizard will not be carrying both. Disarm is something my DM and I will do to a wizard with just an arcane focus.

[Malifice]

Too bad wisdom is not a dump stat for a wizard,

It is for a bladesinger.


an average human like me have the foresight to carry both a spell component pouch and an arcane focus on my level 3 wizard, I just don't see how a 20 wizard will not be carrying both.

With 8 attacks you can be disarmed of both by the end of attack 2.

Casting darkness, then action surging, disarming the caster of both their spell focus and spell component pouch, then shoving them backwards 10' and then grappling them is also funny.

Its hard casting spells when you cant see (most spells require LOS) and you dont have either spell components or a focus at hand.

[Desamir]

It is for a bladesinger.



With 8 attacks you can be disarmed of both by the end of attack 2.

Casting darkness, then action surging, disarming the caster of both their spell focus and spell component pouch, then shoving them backwards 10' and then grappling them is also funny.

Its hard casting spells when you cant see (most spells require LOS) and you dont have either spell components or a focus at hand.

Darkness can get counterspelled. You can't disarm a component pouch, because it isn't a held item.

Are we still talking about bladelocks?

[kaoskonfety]

Darkness can get counterspelled. You can't disarm a component pouch, because it isn't a held item.

Are we still talking about bladelocks?

I'm pretty sure we have flipped to "wizards are teh win-zor, here's why" - granted its because the original question has kinda gotten hand wave/edited to "who wins wizard or warlock" on the grounds no-one is pulling their weapons or targeting AC in this fight.

[Nishant]

Darkness can get counterspelled. You can't disarm a component pouch, because it isn't a held item.

Are we still talking about bladelocks?

yeah, but there's multiclassing in some builds. Even a little dip into fighter and you can action surge, and it's not a bad feature to go for.

[Vogonjeltz]

Adventurers League, as well as most people around here, consider point buy to be the standard method.

Good for them, purely as a matter of fact, they are incorrect in that, per the PHB point buy is specifically a variant rule, being legal for AL doesn't change that.


Dispel Magic costs an action and one of the Warlock's four spell slots, and has a 65% chance of failing. The Wizard has +9 con saves and will auto-succeed concentration checks against Eldritch Blast (which is the only thing you can hit the dragon with while it's up in the air).

A 35% to negate a 9th level spell slot is worth it. More so if the Wizard actual flew up high, and didn't prep slow fall, leading to their messy death. Amusingly, if the Wizard is dispelled, and then casts slow fall as a reaction to try and save themselves, the Warlock can counterspell the featherfall with impunity.


Of course it does. Why wouldn't it?

Hmm, I could have sworn legendary things were forbidden.


Too bad wisdom is not a dump stat for a wizard, and an average human like me have the foresight to carry both a spell component pouch and an arcane focus on my level 3 wizard, I just don't see how a 20 wizard will not be carrying both. Disarm is something my DM and I will do to a wizard with just an arcane focus.

This claim might have been plausible if you had actually been the one to notice the flaw, rather than having had to have had it pointed out for you in the first place. As such, no, I don't think the average human will have such foresight. And characters really are only as thoughtful in preparation as their players.

[Malifice]

Darkness can get counterspelled. You can't disarm a component pouch, because it isn't a held item.

Are we still talking about bladelocks?

Counterspell only works if you (the caster) are within 60'. With a 30' move speed and a bonus action 30' teleport up his sleeve when he action surges, the EK can get 65 away' cast darkness at a spot 5' in front of the wizard, then get back in.

Your DM doesnt let you grab sheathed daggers or worn objects from an opponent?

Wow.

[Desamir]

Good for them, purely as a matter of fact, they are incorrect in that, per the PHB point buy is specifically a variant rule, being legal for AL doesn't change that.

Maybe, but I don't think rolling stats are relevant to a PvP match. If you enforce standard array, that'll only hurt the EK more, since the wizard's stats are replaced with True Polymorph.


A 35% to negate a 9th level spell slot is worth it. More so if the Wizard actual flew up high, and didn't prep slow fall, leading to their messy death. Amusingly, if the Wizard is dispelled, and then casts slow fall as a reaction to try and save themselves, the Warlock can counterspell the featherfall with impunity.

Counterspell has a 60 ft. range and dragons have an 80 ft. flight speed, so no go.

Alternatively, the Wizard could burrow underground as an Ancient White Dragon, preventing the use of Dispel Magic entirely for the round.


Counterspell only works if you (the caster) are within 60'. With a 30' move speed and a bonus action 30' teleport up his sleeve when he action surges, the EK can get 65 away' cast darkness at a spot 5' in front of the wizard, then get back in.

Your DM doesnt let you grab sheathed daggers or worn objects from an opponent?

Wow.

Okay, so the EK spent a turn running away and burning an action surge. The Wizard is going to turn into a Dragon with 60 ft. blindsight on his turn. Now what?

[Gignere]

Good for them, purely as a matter of fact, they are incorrect in that, per the PHB point buy is specifically a variant rule, being legal for AL doesn't change that.



A 35% to negate a 9th level spell slot is worth it. More so if the Wizard actual flew up high, and didn't prep slow fall, leading to their messy death. Amusingly, if the Wizard is dispelled, and then casts slow fall as a reaction to try and save themselves, the Warlock can counterspell the featherfall with impunity.



Hmm, I could have sworn legendary things were forbidden.



This claim might have been plausible if you had actually been the one to notice the flaw, rather than having had to have had it pointed out for you in the first place. As such, no, I don't think the average human will have such foresight. And characters really are only as thoughtful in preparation as their players.

It is plausible because I am carrying both to prevent disarm not for simulacrum. It's like in every optimization guide to carry spare spell books, component pouches, and arcane focuses since 3.0. (Not arcane focuses since this is a 5e thing) I just thought this would be assumed for a level 20 wizard or any level 20 caster.

[uraniumrooster]

Would the UA Undying Light patron be allowed and, if so, when would the duel be declared over?

Using level 8 & 9 spells, the Wiz almost certainly wins in the first few rounds, but if the Lock can get back up after the Wiz has burned through their high level slots (plus possibly doing a bit of no-save damage and blindness if they managed to close within 30'), then the duel might be more balanced. The 15d6 bonus action healing doesn't hurt either for longevity while the Wiz uses up his resources.

Maybe a Hex-wrestler build? Impose Str disadvantage, get close, hold on tight and chip away while self-healing.

[Dralnu]

It's a tough one. An Infernal Pact Bladelock can deal an insane amount of damage, but the Bladesinger has more spells. So much of it depends on luck. I mean, if the Fiendlock lands a hit and sends the Bladesinger through the hells, the BS is a Power Word Kill away from dying. Of course, the BS should have Counterspell, but unless he uses his 9th level slot that's still a 65% chance of dying.

On the other hand, the Bladesinger can prepare so many save-or-sucks while remaining nigh-untouchable with that AC.

So much luck.

Hurl Through Hell allows no save. It just happens. Lose a turn, take 10d10 psychic damage iirc, while the Warlock has a turn to prep. It's pretty nasty.

[Gignere]

Hurl Through Hell allows no save. It just happens. Lose a turn, take 10d10 psychic damage iirc, while the Warlock has a turn to prep. It's pretty nasty.

You need to hit first and eldritch blast will be counterspell, so unless lock closes to try and melee, the lock may never have opportunity to use it.

[Zeuel]

The Wizard wouldn't really need Wish to shut down the Warlock. You have Feeblemind against one of the Warlock's worst stats that they don't have save proficiency in. Kill their spell casting, reduce their CHA to 1, deal a tiny bit of damage on top of that. The fight is pretty much over at that point I'd think.

[Vogonjeltz]

Maybe, but I don't think rolling stats are relevant to a PvP match. If you enforce standard array, that'll only hurt the EK more, since the wizard's stats are replaced with True Polymorph.

It is relevant to the claim that a High Elf wizard would start with a specific stat distribution.


Counterspell has a 60 ft. range and dragons have an 80 ft. flight speed, so no go.

Alternatively, the Wizard could burrow underground as an Ancient White Dragon, preventing the use of Dispel Magic entirely for the round.

Ah, correctish, of course there would be no countering the dispel magic in that case. Then again, the Wizard would be unable to counterspell anything the Warlock casts at this point, so they could definitely do something to frustrate the Wizard's efforts. (Invisibility, Darkness, True Polymorph themselves into another dragon (dragon on dragon!), etc...)

Oh, and if the Warlock attempted to counterspell the True Polymorph and the Wizard cast counterspell in response, then the Wizard wouldn't have their reaction after flying up into the sky (assuming the Wizard was able to counterspell the counterspell) and if dispelled that first turn, would fall without being able to cast featherfall.


It is plausible because I am carrying both to prevent disarm not for simulacrum. It's like in every optimization guide to carry spare spell books, component pouches, and arcane focuses since 3.0. (Not arcane focuses since this is a 5e thing) I just thought this would be assumed for a level 20 wizard or any level 20 caster.

It's implausible because you literally did not think of it. This is just a weak retcon attempt.


The Wizard wouldn't really need Wish to shut down the Warlock. You have Feeblemind against one of the Warlock's worst stats that they don't have save proficiency in. Kill their spell casting, reduce their CHA to 1, deal a tiny bit of damage on top of that. The fight is pretty much over at that point I'd think.

Yeah Feeblemind is probably the best shot the Wizard has and it's good in that it's equally likely to work against any other caster provided they don't counterspell it (plus it would require forgoing the use of True Polymorph or whatever until the round after, so it's tactically a risk).