Two Weapon fighting useful or garbage?

[Stuvius]

Good Day Playground!

I will be playing in a campaign beginning next month as a Swashbuckler/Rogue. The 3.5 campaign starts at lvl 2. Core books plus any of the ‘Complete’ series are permitted. I am considering a build suggestion which includes TWF. While I can see merits for using this feat, especially for the agile, quick striking character I am going for, I see many comments indicating there are better options in the long haul. So I wanted to get some input from experienced builders, to TWF or to not TWF? Thanks

[Drynwyn]

Two-Weapon Fighting is often maligned, due to the heavy feat investment required and the necessity of making a full attack to see any benefit, cutting down on one's mobility.

However, this is not entirely fair. First, let me recommend you review the TWF Off-handbook. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279079-3-5-The-TWF-OffHandbook)

Summarizing the key points:

-To make TWFing worthwhile, you need something that scales with the number of attacks you make. As a rogue, you have Sneak Attack, which qualifies handily.

-To make your worthwhile TWFing effective, you need to have a way to move and full attack in the same turn. You cannot expect your opponent to stand by and cooperate while you full attack them.

There are a lot of ways to get that movement, several of which are in your allowed books. The "Hustle" psionic power, or a psionic item thereof, and Travel Devotion from Complete Champion, are probably the simplest two.

[Flickerdart]

Two-weapon fighting has some drawbacks:

It's expensive. A character with TWF has to pay for two magic weapons (or otherwise get them enchanted, such as with a greater magic weapon spell).
It's not suitable for skirmishing. A character with TWF needs to full-attack to take advantage of it, which results in a lot of standing around and trading blows.
It's inaccurate. That -2 really sucks, especially in the early levels.
It's weak. Two-handed fighting lets you deliver 1.5*STR bonus in damage as one attack, whereas TWF only gives you STR on the main hand and 0.5 STR on the off-hand. This makes DR much more effective against you.
If you want lots of attacks, natural weapons are easier to get lots of.
It's feat-intensive. You need TWF, ITWF, possibly even GTWF, which all come with prerequisites.

[Telonius]

If you're already wedded to the concept of a Swashbuckler/Rogue (I'm assuming Daring Outlaw as well), getting TWF makes a large amount of sense. TWF works best with a bonus source of damage, and Sneak Attack can give you just that; plus you're already getting Weapon Finesse for free.

However, there are going to be situations where you can't use Sneak Attack: either because the creatures are immune, or you aren't flanking, or you don't catch anyone flat-footed. You're also missing out on the best offensive feat that a Rogue could take, Craven, since it's in Champions of Ruin.

Given your sources, the best "kill it quick" build you could use would probably be a Leap Attack Shock Trooper wielding a two-handed weapon. The idea there would be to charge in quick, Power Attack for full, deal an ungodly amount of damage, and (hopefully) make the enemy too dead to retaliate.

So I guess the question would come down to this: are you seeing yourself as more likely to be in melee flanking with someone regularly? Or would it be more likely that you can charge at a single enemy more regularly?

[Flickerdart]

There are a few good options you have that will let you be a skirmish-type "run in, murder a face, and run back out" characters.

Ride-by Attack: Horses are cheap and fast. Charge an enemy, get a full attack (from a barbarian dip with the Spirit Lion Totem ACF from Complete Champion for Pounce) and then keep running.
Fly-by Attack: You need a source of flight, but it's much better than Spring Attack because you get a whole standard action, and can dive in, hit, and fly up. This works well with Tome of Battle maneuvers, which you don't have access to, but it also works with Dual Strike.

[Necroticplague]

Two-weapon fighting has some drawbacks:

It's not suitable for skirmishing. A character with TWF needs to full-attack to take advantage of it, which results in a lot of standing around and trading blows.

It's feat-intensive. You need TWF, ITWF, possibly even GTWF, which all come with prerequisites.


Pounce, or effective pounce is easy to get (IIRC, Spirit Lion Totem is CDivine, which is on the allowed list, as is Travel Devotion).

Why would one need ITWF? THat's just providing another attack at an even more massive penalty. All you need to make TWF work is the base TWF feat (because without it, the penalties are a bit like boulders after stone to flesh).

[Flickerdart]

Why would one need ITWF? THat's just providing another attack at an even more massive penalty. All you need to make TWF work is the base TWF feat (because without it, the penalties are a bit like boulders after stone to flesh).
Because dumping stacks of cash into your weapon, and stacks of class features into being able to wield it, just to get 1 extra attack is kind of lousy. You get a better return on just taking Whirling Frenzy when doing the barbarian dip.

[Troacctid]

Ride-by Attack: Horses are cheap and fast. Charge an enemy, get a full attack (from a barbarian dip with the Spirit Lion Totem ACF from Complete Champion for Pounce) and then keep running.


You can't make more than one melee attack during a round where your mount moves more than 5 feet. Also, pounce doesn't work while mounted because you have to charge, and sitting on the back of your mount precludes that.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Because dumping stacks of cash into your weapon, and stacks of class features into being able to wield it, just to get 1 extra attack is kind of lousy. You get a better return on just taking Whirling Frenzy when doing the barbarian dip.

You don't really need to dump "stacks of cash" on your offhand weapon when most of your damage comes from class features and feats. You can get ITWF from the Gloves of the Balanced Hand to save on feats. GTWF isn't worth it imo.
With the allowed sources in the OP the problem is that a lot of the things that make TWF at least somewhat competitive are off the table. He can't even get the Penetrating Strike ACF. No Craven. No Shadow Blade. No maneuvers.
On the upside there also isn't much else he can take, so he may as well dump his feats into TWF.

Twohanded weapons are certainly easier to optimize, but that's not really an option if you're playing a low-Str, high-Dex, non-full BAB build. You have no Str to get 1.5x benefit from. You don't qualify for PA, and even if you did you wouldn't have Shock Trooper anyway, so you couldn't PA for full because you still need to hit. You kind of need a finesse weapon, because you're not going to hit without one.

You could go for a spiked chain, but you're not going to do much damage and you don't have the Str to make tripping work. It's basic SA damage and whatever bonus from Int you can grab for Insightful Strike. That's not all that impressive, and the damage is the same no matter what weapon you wield, so more attacks = more damage. If you really want the reach and are willing to get EWP for it dual wield kusari-gama.

If you're getting fixed bonus damage on all your attacks anyway you get more out of TWF for a feat than wielding something twohanded. You can also stack it with Whirling Frenzy, which is probably a better idea than getting GTWF because you get less penalty and you get it earlier.

[Troacctid]

Whirling Frenzy is from Unearthed Arcana, so it's off-limits too.

You could stack TWF with Rapid Shot, though.

[nedz]

If you do decide to go with TWF consider the Improved Buckler Defence feat. Bucklers are a cheapish way of bumping your AC. The other defensive TWF feats are traps.

[Flickerdart]

You can get ITWF from the Gloves of the Balanced Hand to save on feats

The gloves are from Magic of Faerun, which is not a Complete book.

[zergling.exe]

The gloves are from Magic of Faerun, which is not a Complete book.

They are also present in the MiC, which is more likely to be in play.

[Darrin]

If you do decide to go with TWF consider the Improved Buckler Defence feat. Bucklers are a cheapish way of bumping your AC. The other defensive TWF feats are traps.

Even with Improved Buckler Defence, there's a -1 penalty for attacking with the arm wearing the buckler. Use a Dwarven Buckler Axe instead, which incurs no such penalty.



I will be playing in a campaign beginning next month as a Swashbuckler/Rogue. The 3.5 campaign starts at lvl 2. Core books plus any of the ‘Complete’ series are permitted. I am considering a build suggestion which includes TWF. While I can see merits for using this feat, especially for the agile, quick striking character I am going for, I see many comments indicating there are better options in the long haul. So I wanted to get some input from experienced builders, to TWF or to not TWF? Thanks

Daring Outlaw makes a decent TWFer in a middle-ish-OP campaign. I've got a sample build in Section V.2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15034762&postcount=13) of my TWF OffHandbook. Ask your DM if Dungeonscape is available? That has the Penetrating Strike ACF so you don't get boned so hard on undead and constructs. No Craven, though... and no Double Hit, so take plenty of Travel Devotion, at least x3, or consider a Cleric dip for Travel Devotion + Turn Undead. Sehanine Moonbow (elf), Io (dragon), and Norse Pantheon (Viking) are good for picking up Travel + something else, usually the Magic domain.

[nedz]

Even with Improved Buckler Defence, there's a -1 penalty for attacking with the arm wearing the buckler. Use a Dwarven Buckler Axe instead, which incurs no such penalty.

Well if you are going Dwarf - Shielded Axe avoids the -1 penalty but does restrict you to using Axes.

The problem with the Dwarven Buckler Axe is that it's one item. It is cheaper to spread your enchantments over multiple items, and more effective. Also it's easier to upgrade the two items separately.

[Aleolus]

If you're already wedded to the concept of a Swashbuckler/Rogue (I'm assuming Daring Outlaw as well), getting TWF makes a large amount of sense. TWF works best with a bonus source of damage, and Sneak Attack can give you just that; plus you're already getting Weapon Finesse for free.

However, there are going to be situations where you can't use Sneak Attack: either because the creatures are immune, or you aren't flanking, or you don't catch anyone flat-footed. You're also missing out on the best offensive feat that a Rogue could take, Craven, since it's in Champions of Ruin.

Given your sources, the best "kill it quick" build you could use would probably be a Leap Attack Shock Trooper wielding a two-handed weapon. The idea there would be to charge in quick, Power Attack for full, deal an ungodly amount of damage, and (hopefully) make the enemy too dead to retaliate.

So I guess the question would come down to this: are you seeing yourself as more likely to be in melee flanking with someone regularly? Or would it be more likely that you can charge at a single enemy more regularly?

There are other ways for him to get his SA. The easiest one is to max out ranks in Bluff and Feint. Best way to make that option better is even available for him, the Invisible Blade in Complete Warrior.

[FocusWolf413]

If you can use pathfinder/dsp, the Thrashing Dragon discipline is incredible.

[Telonius]

There are other ways for him to get his SA. The easiest one is to max out ranks in Bluff and Feint. Best way to make that option better is even available for him, the Invisible Blade in Complete Warrior.

It's a good option, but not from the chassis the OP wants. Here's the feats you're looking at to qualify for that: Weapon Finesse (free from Swashbuckler), TWF, Daring Outlaw, Far Shot, Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus. Even assuming he's human, he won't qualify for the PrC until level 10; so he'd get to Feint as a free action 1/round at level 15. You could absolutely get that a lot earlier if you're using Fighter levels instead of Swashbuckler levels, but then you aren't stacking as many sneak dice from Daring Outlaw.