Non-smart, super killing machine dragons

[heavyfuel]

What if dragons weren't super smart spellcasters, but really just beasts. Much like a tiger, only incredibly more dangerous?

What I mean by this:

-Dragons no longer have super high Int (their Int is now 1+1 per age category); spellcasting, Sp and Su abilities; ability to Speak; and Appraise, Bluff, Heal, Knowledge, Linguistics, Sense Motive, Spellcraft and UMD as class skills.

- But have very high Dexterity (roughly the same as their Str); DR/Adamantine; Scent and Keen Scent; Pounce; Flight maneuverability bettered by one category; Climb and Swim speed equal to land speed (stacking with whatever speed they have, so an Adult Green Dragon would have a swim speed of 80ft); Blood Rage; and are Amphibious. Also, they all have Favored Terrain (any roughly the color of their scales) Camouflage as a Ranger of level equal to its HD.

I may have forgotten one or a few things, but you get the idea.

How weaker are my dragons compared to a spellcasting one?

[legomaster00156]

If you remove all of their Supernatural abilities, you also remove their breath attack.

Breath Weapon (Su)

Some creatures can exhale a cone, line, or cloud of energy or other magical effects. A breath weapon attack usually deals damage and is often based on some type of energy. Breath weapons allow a Reflex save for half damage (DC 10 + 1/2 breathing creature's racial HD + breathing creature's Con modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature's descriptive text). A creature is immune to its own breath weapon unless otherwise noted. Some breath weapons allow a Fortitude save or a Will save instead of a Reflex save. Each breath weapon also includes notes on how often it can be used, even if this number is limited in times per day.

[heavyfuel]

If you remove all of their Supernatural abilities, you also remove their breath attack.

Oops. All Su abilities except Breath Weapons

[legomaster00156]

Also, you remove their DR, along with most of the things that separate different types of dragons from one another. Really, Supernatural abilities account for most of the threat of dragons. Without them, most dragons are full-attacking brutes without Pounce.

[Starkeeper]

Like any other beast, that opens up a vulnerability to Ray of Stupidity, a few shots(or a single metamagic-ed one) and your dragon's down, it's not as much of an insta-win as Shivering Touch, but it's not far off.

[Psyren]

We already have big dumb (single-digit Int) dragons though, they're called Linnorms and Drakes. I'd start with one of those and then add templates or HD as necessary.

[(Un)Inspired]

We already have big dumb (single-digit Int) dragons though, they're called Linnorms and Drakes. I'd start with one of those and then add templates or HD as necessary.

The nail has been hit on the head.

Why put dragons into a spot that has already been filled?

[heavyfuel]

The nail has been hit on the head.

Why put dragons into a spot that has already been filled?

Because I'm new to PF and didn't know either existed. :smallbiggrin:


We already have big dumb (single-digit Int) dragons though, they're called Linnorms and Drakes. I'd start with one of those and then add templates or HD as necessary.

/thread

[legomaster00156]

I would like to add to the list wyverns, which aren't near-mindless beasts, but also aren't nearly as intelligent as their true dragon cousins.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The Monster Manual 5 had rules for non-casting dragons, giving them a variety of neat special attacks. Might be worth looking at.

[Sayt]

Giving Dragons pounce may end up being a little problematic, considering they get three Primary (two of which is superprimary: Always 1.5 Str) and two secondary attacks once they hit adult, and tend to have huge strength scores, there's a decent chance of "The dragon drops out of the sky and rips you apart before you get to have a turn. I hope you brought a book, because you're out of the fight."

(For reference, an Adult Red Dragon does an average of 115 damage on a full attack, 162 on a power attack, and 201 if it hastes and takes an extra bite or tail attack, and it can charge 400ft. A D10, 14 HD character with 20 Con has an average of 150 HP. (Assuming I didn't **** up the math)

So I advise either going for the Linnorms, or be careful to adjust the CR of Pouncing Dragons.

[icefractal]

What if you applied the Xorvintal template (MM4, I believe; not sure about that spelling), and then the Feral template? Xorvintal removes spellcasting in favor of more general beefiness, but leaves them very intelligent. Then Feral would decrease that Int and add even more physical power.

Also, there may be some dragon archetypes that're suitable. Wyrm of War gets ToB maneuvers instead of spells - depending on which ones you picked, you could describe them as instinctive instead of studied.

Edit: And whoops, those are all 3.5 things. However, they should be compatible with PF dragons fairly easily.

[137beth]

The Monster Manual 5 had rules for non-casting dragons, giving them a variety of neat special attacks. Might be worth looking at.


What if you applied the Xorvintal template (MM4, I believe; not sure about that spelling

I believe you are both referring to the same set of templates. They are from MM5, not MM4.