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Kane0
2015-11-23, 07:11 PM
- Familiar but unique: The ranger is historically a fighter kit in a rogue/druid direction, but it deserves its own flavor and mechanics. It will inevitably poach things from other classes but I want new and unique stuff in equal measure.
- Powerful but balanced: Ideally i'm aiming for a paladin power level but the fighter, rogue, barbarian and monk are all good goals as well. Only a small power boost is really needed to get the ranger back on the power curve, but it also needs to be well spaced
- Flavor: The basic concept of a ranger is of a wilderness character, which can branch in many directions. I hope to accommodate the vast majority of these visions without throwing away the ribbons and mechanics people have come to couple with the ranger.
- Mechanics: The ranger's niche is hard to place. Not straight up combat (barbarian, paladin) nor evasive (rogue, monk), the ranger lies between. It's hard to give him a clear role without taking it from other classes. I went for a blend, allowing him to take either or both with some utility thrown in as well.
- Subclasses: Reduced slightly in power due to the better base, Beastmaster remains a subclass, as does the favored enemy/terrain path. Only casting spans across all ranger types, and even that is contentious when asking what people think constitutes a ranger.
- Inspiration: Making use of UA content to flesh things out and make sure nice things are more evenly spaced from levels 1-20. Still a little front heavy, comparable to 2-3 levels in fighter, rogue, paladin, warlock
The Ranger



Level
Prof
Special Abilities
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th


1
2
Favored Enemy, Keen Eye, Trailblazer
-
-
-
-
-


2
2
Fighting Style, Spellcasting, Unerring Accuracy
2
-
-
-
-


3
2
Clave, Primal Awareness
3
-
-
-
-


4
2
ASI
3
-
-
-
-


5
3
Extra Attack, Fast Movement
4
2
-
-
-


6
3
Healing Salves
4
2
-
-
-


7
3
Clave Feature
4
3
-
-
-


8
3
ASI
4
3
-
-
-


9
4
-
4
3
2
-
-


10
4
Favored Enemy and Trailblazer Improvements
4
3
2
-
-


11
4
Clave Feature
4
3
3
-
-


12
4
ASI
4
3
3
-
-


13
5
-
4
3
3
1
-


14
5
Primal Step
4
3
3
1
-


15
5
Clave Feature
4
3
3
2
-


16
5
ASI
4
3
3
2
-


17
6
-
4
3
3
3
1


18
6
Feral Senses
4
3
3
3
1


19
6
ASI
4
3
3
3
2


20
6
Master of the Wild
4
3
3
3
2



Hit Dice: d10
Armor Proficiencies: Light Armor, Medium Armor & Shields
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple & Martial Weapons
Saving Throws Proficiencies: Strength & Dexterity
Skill Proficiencies: Choose 3 from Animal Handling, Acrobatics, Athletics, Insight, Investigation, Nature, Perception, Stealth and Survival

Favored Enemy
At 1st level, choose one creature type as your favored enemy. Alternatively you can choose one bloodrace of humanoids (bluebloods, greenbloods or redbloods). You learn one language that your favored enemy speaks, if any.
Additionally, you cannot be surprised by your favored enemy and when you roll damage for an attack against a favored enemy you can treat any 1 on a damage die as a 2.
At 10th level you can change your favored enemy to another type when you finish a long rest.

Keen Eye
At 1st level, you can take the Search action as a bonus action

Trailblazer
At 1st level, your travel speed and ability to navigate is not hindered by natural terrain, stealth or tracking.
At level 10 your travel speed, navigation and tracking ability cannot be hindered by magical means.

Fighting Style
At 2nd level, choose one fighting style from the following: Archery, Dueling, Hand-and-a-half, Polearms, Two-Weapon Fighting

Hand-and-a-half: +1 to hit and damage when using a versatile weapon in both hands
Polearm: When using a reach weapon hostile creatures treat the space within your reach as difficult terrain


Spellcasting
- Wisdom based
- Spells prepared (half level + wis) from the ranger list (plus Elemental Weapon)
- Recover on a Long Rest
- No ritual casting

Unerring Precision
At 2nd level, when you make a weapon attack you can expend one spell slot to roll an extra two die and add the result to the attack roll, potentially turning a missed attack into a hit. These extra die are d4s for a 1st level spell slot and increase in size for each spell slot above 1st, to a maximum of d12s.

Clave
At 3rd level, choose one Ranger clave to follow. Changes to the PHB Hunter and Beastmaster are found below, subclasses found in other sources can be used freely.

Primal Awareness
At 3rd level, as an action you can sense the presence and direction of the following types of creatures within one mile: aberrations, celestials, dragons, elementals, fey, fiends, undead. This feature does not reveal the distance, number or strength of these creatures.
You can use this feature a number of times equal to 1+ your Wisdom modifier. When you finish a long rest, you regain all expended uses.

ASI
As per PHB

Extra Attack
As per PHB

Fast Movement
At 5th level, while you are not wearing heavy armor your movement speed increases by 10 feet.

Healing Salves
At 6th level, as part of a long rest you can prepare a number of medicinal salves and poultices equal to your wisdom modifier, minimum 1. As an action you can apply a salve to a creature within reach to heal 2d6 plus your Wisdom modifier HP or to grant a saving throw advantage against a poison or disease the recipient is suffering from. Unused salves expire if they are not used before your next long rest.

Primal Step
At 14th level, you are no longer affected by difficult terrain.

Feral Senses
At 18th level, when you attack a creature you can’t see, your inability to see it does not impose disadvantage on your attack rolls against it. You are also aware of the location of any invisible creature within 30 feet of you, provided that the creature isn’t hidden from you and you are not blinded or deafened.

Master of the Wild
At level 20 you increase your Strength, Dexterity, Constitution and Wisdom scores and maximums by 2



Level 3: Bonus Spells
Snare, Spider Climb, Meld into Stone, Locate Creature, Far Step

Level 3: Hunting Style

Giant Killer: When a large or larger creature misses you with a melee attack it provokes an Opportunity Attack from you

Horde Breaker: When you use the attack action you can make an extra attack against a different creature within your reach

Skirmisher: If you move 10 feet or more away from where you start your turn, your weapon attacks deal an extra +1d6 damage until the end of your turn

Level 7: Defensive Tactics

Alacrity: Spells and other magical effects cannot reduce your movement speed

Escape the Horde: Opportunity attacks made against you are rolled at disadvantage

Iron Will: You cannot be frightened

Level 11: Superior Hunting Style

Relentless Hunter: Once per turn you can add your Wisdom modifier to the attack and damage rolls of one attack you make

Rain of Iron: You can use your action to make one melee weapon attack that targets all creatures within reach, or one ranged weapon attack that targets all creatures within 10 feet of a point you can see within range.

Level 15: Improved Defensive Tactics

Evasion: When you make a Dexterity saving throw to take only half damage, you instead take no damage if you succeed and only half damage if you fail.

Uncanny Dodge: When a creature you can see hits you with an attack, you can use your reaction to halve the damage of the attack



Level 3: Bonus Spells
Animal Friendship, Beast Sense, Catnap, Dominate Beast, Hold Monster

Level 3, Beast Companion
- Gain one beast of CR 1/4 or lower
- Add your proficiency bonus to your beasts AC, attacks, damage, saving throws and ability checks
- Your beast's maximum HP equals its normal maximum or 4x your Ranger level, whichever is higher
- Your beast acts on your initiative, moving under your direction (no action required)
- As a bonus action you can direct your beast companion to take an action. Your beast can only attack once on its turn.
- Once per long rest you can regain or obtain a new companion during a short rest

Level 7: Bolster Beast
Your beast's attacks are considered magical for the purposes of overcoming damage resistance.
Additionally, as an action you can touch your beast to restore a number of hit points equal to twice your ranger level. Once you use this feature you cannot do so again until you finish a short or long rest.

Level 11: Bestial Fury
Your beast companion can make two attacks when you command it to take the attack action

Level 15: Share Spells
When you cast a spell targeting yourself you can also affect your beast with the spell if it is within 30' of you



Level 3: Call Spirit
You gain access to 2 spirits from the list below. The benefits of a spirit are activated using a bonus action

Level 7: Spirit Touched
You learn two druid cantrips and can prepare three spells drawn from the Druid spell list. These do not count against your ranger spells prepared. You can cast any of these spells as rituals if they have the ritual tag.

Level 11: Greater Spirits
You gain access to a third spirit, and when you use your Call Spirit ability you can choose to gain two benefits from those you have access to simultaneously.

Level 15: Spirit For:
As an action you can assume spirit form, gaining a flight speed equal to your movement speed and Resistance to nonmagical weapon damage for 1 minute. While in this form you can move through solid objects as long as your movement ends in an empty space. Once you have used this ability you must finish a long rest before being able to do so again.


Aggression: Deal Force damage equal to your Wisdom modifier to creatures that hit you with melee attacks until the end of your next turn

Ferocity: Gain Temporary HP equal to your Wisdom modifier

Folly: Grant one creature you can see disadvantage on saving throws against your ranger spells until the end of your turn

Instinct: Gain advantage on one attack roll against a creature you can see until the end of your turn

Power: One creature within reach must succeed on a Strength saving throw against your spell DC or be knocked Prone




Level 3: Bonus Spells
Create or Destroy Water, Dust Devil, Wall of Sand, Blight, Antilife Shell

Level 3: Desiccating Touch
When you take the Attack action you can replace one weapon attack with a melee spell attack which deals 3d6 + Wisdom modifier Necrotic damage.

Level 7: Withered Toughness
You gain resistance to fire damage, and when you aren't wearing armor your AC is 13 + your Constitution modifier. A shield's benefits apply as normal while using this natural armor.

Level 11: Aura of Aridity
Creatures that start their turn within 10 feet of you must make a Constitution saving throw against your spell DC or gain one level of exhaustion, to a maximum of two levels. You can use and action to raise or suppress this aura.

Level 15: Create Sand Golem
When you slay a creature, you can reduce the creature's corpse to dust and sand that animates as a clay golem under your service, the statistics for which can be found in the Monster Manual.
The golem acts on its own initiative and obeys your verbal commands. It remains in your service for up to one hour, at which point it crumbles into a pile of sand.
Once you create a golem with this feature you cannot do so again until you finish a long rest.


Please leave me your critique, opinions, evaluations, and thoughts! This is obviously a work in progress, and I'd love to hear any feedback!

Kane0
2015-12-26, 06:23 PM
Bump.

Edit: Many changes since then, referred ability doesn't even exist anymore.

djreynolds
2015-12-27, 04:50 AM
I like it.


I've been working on chain master, it is a beast master whose beast is on a chain and through that chain you can cast your spells through your beast like hunters mark. Something along those lines, and yes the beast would like to kill you.

Steampunkette
2016-01-13, 01:42 AM
I love the idea of using the prof bonus to initiative, so I'd push to put that part of alacrity back into the class.

I also loved the UA Ranger having 2hd per level. But instead of d6s maybe make them d4s? Higher average than a fighter, cleaner recovery options, lower average maximum HP. Adds another unique benefit of the class.

Other than those notes I love this redesign. You did a great job.

Markoff Chainey
2016-01-13, 04:34 AM
Hi!

I really like most of it, some abilities from the Beastmaster and Spirit Walker subclasses seem to me as over the curve.

The Base Class
It looks very solid, but as you wrote yourself, quite frontloaded and it would become arguably one of the best MC options. I specially dislike that by lvl 1 you get two bumps in damage and I would move that.

Btw - Skirmish - How high is the bonus damage? Either I missed it or it is not stated.

I would do something like:
Lvl 1 - Fighting Style, Primal Awareness
Lvl 2 - Alacrity, Spellcasting
Lvl 3 - Subclass, Skirmish

Subclass: Hunter
Looks solid to me. Relentless hunter is really umph... I would add it to damage only to avoid -5/+10 cheese.

Suclass: Beastmaster
I really hate the 5e RAW that the pet is treated like a robot. On the other hand, they did in order to remove actions from the Character, because a pet and a Char with all his actions gets out of hand. There are plenty of Beastmaster Threads who show that the Beastmaster can be a real Beast in DPR when built right.

What I see here is that you made the beast weaker at start, but more autonomously.. At lvl 10, the beast finally gets as strong as the RAW one, and I believe that this is way too strong when it is enough to just once order it to attack with one Bonus Action for example.

I think there are three possible solutions - either make entirely new beasts with unique stats that are balanced or allow durable companions that dont do much damage (mounts basically) or go the RAW route and allow strong offensive companions that eat up your actions..

Subclass: Spirit Walker
This appears to be to a Ranger what the Favored Soul is to a Sorcerer.
Cantrips are fun and cool (Shillelaqh!) The additional spells are very powerful because as I read it they are based on Ranger level and not on spell slot level - meaning that for those spells, the Ranger is treated like a full caster.
The spirts use up your Bonus Action, so TWF becomes a trap option. Spirits are very powerful options indeed.
Lvl 15 seems to be too much of gains, I would take one of the three away.
Lvl 18 - I would write it differently - I do not know if this was intended or not, but I would say 1/day the Ranger may turn incorporeal for 1 min and by that he gains flying and immunity to non-magical weapons.

In my opinion, as written, you could cheese the crap out of the Beastmaster to a point where it stops to be funny at all for anybody and the Spirit Walker is somewhere in the middle between the Hunter and the Beastmaster, I feel it is somewhat stronger than the Favored Soul. - Less Nova, less casting but much better melee and awesome use for the bonus actions.

PoeticDwarf
2016-01-14, 11:22 AM
I kinda like this, it isn't that good yet but the features are cooler and the ranger isn't really stronger than he was (just a little bit). Still, this makes an alternate ranger but not really a stronger ranger.
Replace fighting style to level 2, as it is now.
Get primal awarness level one, and move the bonus on initiative to level 3. Or just swap fighting style and the bonus to initiative.

PoeticDwarf
2016-01-14, 11:26 AM
I love the idea of using the prof bonus to initiative, so I'd push to put that part of alacrity back into the class.

I also loved the UA Ranger having 2hd per level. But instead of d6s maybe make them d4s? Higher average than a fighter, cleaner recovery options, lower average maximum HP. Adds another unique benefit of the class.

Other than those notes I love this redesign. You did a great job.

Sorry for my double post, but I just see this now and I can double quote because I already posted a post (well I don't know how to do it now, but it's stupid of me).

If you give it 2d4 it isn't average higher than a fighter (5 vs 5.5 and because 5.5 is rounded up it would be 5 vs 6), I also like the ideas of 2HD, but 2d6 sounds as too much and 2d4 isn't enough (well it is if the class is made a little bit stronger)

RakiReborn
2016-01-14, 12:43 PM
I think a great benefit for 2hd per level, is that when you spend your hit dice, you gain your CON modifier on both. So a lvl1 ranger with con14 could heal 2d4+4 (9) instead of 1d10+2 (7.5). Or i may have missed something. Also, i believe that there was an errata or tweet that said that with the durable feat, if you have a dx less than 10 and you have con20, you still treat the dx roll as a 10. That would mean with two HD per level, the ranger could use HD like crazy. Again, i just might be comepletely off here xD

Teapot Salty
2016-01-16, 02:23 AM
Few small critiques:
The way you word skirmish, it makes it so that the increased movement speed makes it more difficult to actually meet the requirements for the skirmish bonus, it really just needs a "not affected by additional move speed" or a set distance and your set.

It could just be the fact that I hate favored enemy, but hunter just doesn't seem to have that level awesome that the other two have. I mean, a animal companion has a million uses, and spells are always awesome, but hunter only becomes relevant in combat at level 10, and only consistently useful at level 18.

Steampunkette
2016-01-16, 06:12 AM
Maybe set it to 20 feet?

That way short limbed races and long limbed races can both move "Most" of their movement speed to get the bonus.

Though I would suggest making it so the characters can't move between two squares over and over until they spend enough movement to get the bonus. That just seems silly.

Khrysaes
2016-01-16, 09:49 AM
Hello,

If you don't mind, I'm going to use your rework as a base for my own and draw ideas from it.

SpawnOfMorbo
2016-01-16, 10:15 AM
Totally loving this ranger. I just woke up so I'm still not all the way awake but...

You should set skirmish to moving 10'. It has history (scout in 3.x) and it won't push people to optimize for slower rangers in order to pull off skirmish.

Getting faster is a hindrance to their effectiveness.

I think you can leave out a qualifier.about where the ranger ends up, just leave that to DMs.

Also, and this may be stepping on the toes of the Rogue a bit, but this class is screaming the need for a Bonus Action disengage.

How about a first level spell like expeditious retreat but it gives you the disengage action instead of the dash action? Or how about allowing you to do less skirmish damage in order to BA disengage, like drop Skirmish damage dice by one step (minimum 0dice) in order to BA disengage?

Gwendol
2016-01-19, 02:46 AM
Why not pick an ability from the Swashbuckler? Fancy footwork denies the target of your attack an OA, thus allowing the PC to move away without having to spend a bonus action. Also, since it is a more limited form it can be gained earlier (when it's mostly needed).

Kane0
2016-01-24, 11:27 PM
Oh hey, responses! Always like responses.


I love the idea of using the prof bonus to initiative, so I'd push to put that part of alacrity back into the class.

I also loved the UA Ranger having 2hd per level. But instead of d6s maybe make them d4s? Higher average than a fighter, cleaner recovery options, lower average maximum HP. Adds another unique benefit of the class.

Other than those notes I love this redesign. You did a great job.

Thankyou! The bonus to init is indeed still present, though I'd argue against the 2dx for HD. Theres all sorts of repercussions that I can't fathom when it comes to short rest healing and it is something different that doesnt really need to be. In fact i think a d8 hit die may be in order with all the other goodies they get. Will have to see how ti plays out, current game with tester only just reached level 6.


Hi!

I really like most of it, some abilities from the Beastmaster and Spirit Walker subclasses seem to me as over the curve.

The Base Class
It looks very solid, but as you wrote yourself, quite frontloaded and it would become arguably one of the best MC options. I specially dislike that by lvl 1 you get two bumps in damage and I would move that.

Btw - Skirmish - How high is the bonus damage? Either I missed it or it is not stated.

I would do something like:
Lvl 1 - Fighting Style, Primal Awareness
Lvl 2 - Alacrity, Spellcasting
Lvl 3 - Subclass, Skirmish

Subclass: Hunter
Looks solid to me. Relentless hunter is really umph... I would add it to damage only to avoid -5/+10 cheese.

Suclass: Beastmaster
I really hate the 5e RAW that the pet is treated like a robot. On the other hand, they did in order to remove actions from the Character, because a pet and a Char with all his actions gets out of hand. There are plenty of Beastmaster Threads who show that the Beastmaster can be a real Beast in DPR when built right.

What I see here is that you made the beast weaker at start, but more autonomously.. At lvl 10, the beast finally gets as strong as the RAW one, and I believe that this is way too strong when it is enough to just once order it to attack with one Bonus Action for example.

I think there are three possible solutions - either make entirely new beasts with unique stats that are balanced or allow durable companions that dont do much damage (mounts basically) or go the RAW route and allow strong offensive companions that eat up your actions..

Subclass: Spirit Walker
This appears to be to a Ranger what the Favored Soul is to a Sorcerer.
Cantrips are fun and cool (Shillelaqh!) The additional spells are very powerful because as I read it they are based on Ranger level and not on spell slot level - meaning that for those spells, the Ranger is treated like a full caster.
The spirts use up your Bonus Action, so TWF becomes a trap option. Spirits are very powerful options indeed.
Lvl 15 seems to be too much of gains, I would take one of the three away.
Lvl 18 - I would write it differently - I do not know if this was intended or not, but I would say 1/day the Ranger may turn incorporeal for 1 min and by that he gains flying and immunity to non-magical weapons.

In my opinion, as written, you could cheese the crap out of the Beastmaster to a point where it stops to be funny at all for anybody and the Spirit Walker is somewhere in the middle between the Hunter and the Beastmaster, I feel it is somewhat stronger than the Favored Soul. - Less Nova, less casting but much better melee and awesome use for the bonus actions.

Initial bonuses to damage is a bit of a problem yes, I'll probably reorganize those at some point.
Skirmish starts as a d4 and goes up 1 step matching prof bonus, same as monk die steps actually.
For hunter, our games remove the -5/+10 altogether, which has met 0 complaints so far.
Beastmaster is (as WotC said themselves) difficult to balance. Too weak and its a liability, too strong and you're playing two characters.
I like the idea of tank/mount beasts, though using a specified statblock also has merit. I'll have to run some math, unfortunately the tester chose hunter. I'd like to provide the opportunity for all kinds of companions (mounts, tanks, flankers, DPS, utility, etc)
For Spirit shaman, getting new spells known is supposed to be when you gain access to those spell levels using the ranger progression rather than at levels 3,5,7,9,11.
They also take away a few bonus action casting tricks, the price you pay. I do want to be careful on power creep.
Probably the spirit
The incorporability was supposed to bestow only the abliity to move through solid objects, I didn't realize it was a written monster ability that gave other stuff.
Thankyou! Beastmaster is definitely getting looked at.


I kinda like this, it isn't that good yet but the features are cooler and the ranger isn't really stronger than he was (just a little bit). Still, this makes an alternate ranger but not really a stronger ranger.
Replace fighting style to level 2, as it is now.
Get primal awarness level one, and move the bonus on initiative to level 3. Or just swap fighting style and the bonus to initiative.

Good that it isn't a straight buff. I see the ranger as pretty well balanced, just lacking the personal touch that other classes recieved
Primal awareness fits great with level 3 subclass bonus mostly because of its ribbon nature, and I wouldn't want to put it before casting.


Few small critiques:
The way you word skirmish, it makes it so that the increased movement speed makes it more difficult to actually meet the requirements for the skirmish bonus, it really just needs a "not affected by additional move speed" or a set distance and your set.

It could just be the fact that I hate favored enemy, but hunter just doesn't seem to have that level awesome that the other two have. I mean, a animal companion has a million uses, and spells are always awesome, but hunter only becomes relevant in combat at level 10, and only consistently useful at level 18.

Very true, will change that to set 10'. Makes skirmish much more usable in melee too, last session I literally saw the test ranger dancing circles around foes just to get the distance up and it was a little annoying.

Hunter is a little lacklustre, but it is supposed to be straightforward. Patience pays off at the end though with the massive bonus to attack/damage. Hopefully I can bring the other two down to match the hunter rather than the other way around.


Hello,

If you don't mind, I'm going to use your rework as a base for my own and draw ideas from it.

I would love it, please send me a PM or write here how it goes! Playtesting is always good.


Totally loving this ranger. I just woke up so I'm still not all the way awake but...

You should set skirmish to moving 10'. It has history (scout in 3.x) and it won't push people to optimize for slower rangers in order to pull off skirmish.

Getting faster is a hindrance to their effectiveness.

I think you can leave out a qualifier.about where the ranger ends up, just leave that to DMs.

Also, and this may be stepping on the toes of the Rogue a bit, but this class is screaming the need for a Bonus Action disengage.

How about a first level spell like expeditious retreat but it gives you the disengage action instead of the dash action? Or how about allowing you to do less skirmish damage in order to BA disengage, like drop Skirmish damage dice by one step (minimum 0dice) in order to BA disengage?

Cheers! It would be going into rogues too much, there is a limit I want to place on his mobliity. A new spell akin to expedious retreat would fit perfectly though.


Why not pick an ability from the Swashbuckler? Fancy footwork denies the target of your attack an OA, thus allowing the PC to move away without having to spend a bonus action. Also, since it is a more limited form it can be gained earlier (when it's mostly needed).

The mobility feat already does this very well, its one of those feats that just suits the class. Much like sharpshooter for archer rangers, mobile is a perfect fit for melee rangers. I don't see much of a need to include any more mobility between that and moving too close to rogue territory.



Also, i'm thinking of tweaking down the spellcasting down a bit since everything else is more solid. Less spells known is about all I can think of at the moment though, unless I make it a partial caster (which would suck and make me redo spirit shaman more).

Steampunkette
2016-01-24, 11:57 PM
Potential fix for the Beastmaster.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?459858-NPC-Companion-System-Idea

Slottable companions that provide static and active bonuses. Unequip the companion for scouting and the like.

takore
2016-01-25, 02:53 PM
Haven't finished reading all of it but first thing I noticed is the new fighting style you included "hand and a half" doesn't really work... unless i'm missing something. There are no light weapons that have versatility, additionally, versatility usually increases the damage value one tier at the cost of using your off hand for anything else. So the only way to dual wield versatile weapons would be to get the two weapon fighting feat and then sacrifice the increased damage value you get for wielding a 2 handed weapon with 2 hands.

Edit:

I also do not see any info on the Mariner fighting style and I don't recall seeing that in any of the 5E books.

Healing Salves: Seems rather powerful to me, mostly because as it stands they last forever. Because of this the ranger could make a ton during any party downtime. (i.e. the part has a week to rest/shop, ranger with WIS 16 could make 3 each day w/o a chance of failure or a component cost, and they heal better than potions of healing do. I personally would recommend either requiring a check to find the material and make the poultice or make it so they only last a couple days to eliminate the chances of stockpiling them. This may just be my own opinion but yeah, it seems like it should be harder to find healing items than that.

Vanish is simply a lesser version of Cunning Action which the rogue gets at 2nd level.

Kane0
2016-01-25, 04:20 PM
Potential fix for the Beastmaster.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?459858-NPC-Companion-System-Idea

Slottable companions that provide static and active bonuses. Unequip the companion for scouting and the like.

Intriguing. A nice alternative for those not interested in the added bookwork.


Haven't finished reading all of it but first thing I noticed is the new fighting style you included "hand and a half" doesn't really work... unless i'm missing something. There are no light weapons that have versatility, additionally, versatility usually increases the damage value one tier at the cost of using your off hand for anything else. So the only way to dual wield versatile weapons would be to get the two weapon fighting feat and then sacrifice the increased damage value you get for wielding a 2 handed weapon with 2 hands.

Tis in the spoiler, Hand-and-a-half adds +1 to attack and damage when using a versatile weapon in two hands. Offers more accuracy over GWF style at the cost of slightly reduced damage (though still competitive).

takore
2016-01-25, 04:25 PM
Intriguing. A nice alternative for those not interested in the added bookwork.



Tis in the spoiler, Hand-and-a-half adds +1 to attack and damage when using a versatile weapon in two hands. Offers more accuracy over GWF style at the cost of slightly reduced damage (though still competitive).

ahhhh, alright, the way it is worded was making me think you had to have a versatile weapon in each hand, not wielding a single weapon 2 handed.

Kane0
2016-01-26, 03:53 PM
Thinking of taking a somewhat uniform approach to the beastmaster. Like for example all beasts have the same basic statblock split into three stages: One for level 3, one for level 10 and one for level 18. Each basic type of beast will have a couple of different abilities that get added to the basic block (For example a serpent beast will have poison, a canine beast trip attack/pack tactics and an avian beast flight speed and mobile-eqsue trait). This will take away using MM entries for your beast and also not need to have the ranger add his proficiency into everything, which makes balancing a lot easier. The possible downside is that when you get it its great, then it doesn't progress with you for a significant chunk of time so it loses usefulness as you level until you hit the next statblock. Thoughts?

For example:
AC 14/16/18
HP 1/2 Ranger

Str 14 (+2)
Con 14 (+2)
Dex 14 (+2)
Int 4 (-3)
Wis 10 (+0)
Cha 10 (+0)

Attack +4/+6/+8
Damage 1d6+2 (6) / 1d8+4 (9)/ 1d10+6 (12)

First ability/trait at 3
Second ability/trait at 10
Third ability/trait at 18

Then shuffle abilities so beastfriend applies at 3rd, bolster at 7th and share spells at 15th. At level 10 you might also grant a limited empathetic link with beast and at 18 the ability to call it from anywhere on the same plane, allowing it to arrive at your side within say 1 minute. Just a thought.

Edit: Another thought is to reduce casting to 1/3 ala Eldritch Knight / Arcane Trickster, and taking the Spirit Shaman subclass would bring that up to the current 1/2 casting. This would mean having to start the subclasses at level 2 as well as some reworking of the spirit shaman itself.

Kane0
2016-01-27, 09:17 PM
Changes to beastmaster made, should be much easier to tweak and balance the power now that they all will have the same stats and abilities.

What do people think? Still a bit strong IMO, but need some math on HP and damage output.

Mortis_Elrod
2017-05-20, 12:56 AM
What about adding other subclasses done in UA. I'd like to see horizon walker, deepstalker , and monster slayer, and guardian.

ZorroGames
2017-05-30, 08:53 AM
I like where this is going. Never played a Ranger other than the material Strategic Review gave but it was the disappointing class when I first read 5th Edition. Leaving aside the whole Legolas/Aragon/who-what defines a Ranger nightmare, I envisioned it as a Melee and Missile class (spells optional) character. While WOTC chose the equally valid Melee or Missile class landing more heavily IMO on the latter. Still not sure how much spells and which ones fit how I envision a ranger TBH. (To Be Honest)

I would like to have seen more versatility in natural skills (what works in a woodland works in a mountainous, coastal, or prairie setting to a large degree but that may be residual Second Edition AD&D syndrome) without magic but I have no suggestion on how to make that viable. Yet.

Nice work! After I get a good grasp on playing Fighter, Monk and Cleric I may try some revision of Ranger next instead of a Wizard/Sorceror next.

ZorroGames
2017-05-30, 08:57 AM
What about adding other subclasses done in UA. I'd like to see horizon walker, deepstalker , and monster slayer, and guardian.

After getting a more viable base Ranger (WOTC - hint, hint) that might be useful though I am concerned about UA because it, to my understanding, is not tested as much towards balancing it versus core classes. Optional rules/settings are great but too often easily broken upon play testing as seen from OD&D on.

Adding them after creating a more competitive Ranger class then testing them for balance would be ideal.

ZorroGames
2017-05-30, 09:03 AM
Haven't finished reading all of it but first thing I noticed is the new fighting style you included "hand and a half" doesn't really work... unless i'm missing something. There are no light weapons that have versatility, additionally, versatility usually increases the damage value one tier at the cost of using your off hand for anything else. So the only way to dual wield versatile weapons would be to get the two weapon fighting feat and then sacrifice the increased damage value you get for wielding a 2 handed weapon with 2 hands.

Edit:

I also do not see any info on the Mariner fighting style and I don't recall seeing that in any of the 5E books.

Healing Salves: Seems rather powerful to me, mostly because as it stands they last forever. Because of this the ranger could make a ton during any party downtime. (i.e. the part has a week to rest/shop, ranger with WIS 16 could make 3 each day w/o a chance of failure or a component cost, and they heal better than potions of healing do. I personally would recommend either requiring a check to find the material and make the poultice or make it so they only last a couple days to eliminate the chances of stockpiling them. This may just be my own opinion but yeah, it seems like it should be harder to find healing items than that.

Vanish is simply a lesser version of Cunning Action which the rogue gets at 2nd level.

The comments on healing salves is great and something a new player like myself would miss. Valid points in effectiveness and stockpiling.

Kane0
2017-09-11, 07:07 PM
Small update: Cleaned up a whole bunch of writing and formatting.

Kane0
2017-10-25, 07:13 PM
Another update. With Xanathar's coming out soon I shuffled the table and abilities to be compatible with subclasses found in external content (PHB hunter and BM replaced with those found here).

Kane0
2018-03-07, 12:07 AM
Well with the advent of Xan's Gloom Stalker and Horizon Walker i've had to rejig a bit to avoid duplicate/similar features and correct power disparity. Another update!

Mortis_Elrod
2018-03-07, 04:07 PM
i like this change you made, for the level 10 feature i might suggest an improved unerring Precision, or another utility ability for combat. Maybe even something like deflect missles, or something similar they do with a reaction that is more defensive orientated. Or maybe a something social like bonus to insight checks to see if someone is lying based off of body language and extend that to animal handling to detect a beasts mood?

Kane0
2018-03-07, 06:01 PM
I checked over things I may have missed in the PHB and came across Favored Enemy/Natural explorer improvements. Seeing as level 11 is the typical direct combat boost they seemed to make sense to add these sorts of features at level 10. Makes both ribbons a lot more prominent.

If you look at Favored enemy it has a pretty substantial boost to social checks are built in, especially with how I handle the humanoid type (split into three categories, covers lots of ground). A second FE at level 10 seemed appropriate, plus a minor combat benefit to go with.

Still looking for ideas and improvements though, it's a fine line to walk between useless ribbons and powerful gamebreakers when it comes to the Exploration pillar in particular.

Mortis_Elrod
2018-03-08, 06:24 PM
for the level 10 improvements, might i suggest adding the following line to Walker of the Wilds:
"and you know if it is being attempted."


For improving favored enemy, it be better to be able to change it on a long or short rest than to just get a second one.

Also rename Walker of the Wilds to Pathfinder.

Kane0
2018-03-08, 08:06 PM
I would say that falls under the DM to tell you, same way if you were cursed or similar.

Ooh yes, that sounds much better.

I think I'd rather disassociate from that particular word as much as possible :smalltongue:

Mortis_Elrod
2018-03-09, 07:14 AM
I would say that falls under the DM to tell you, same way if you were cursed or similar.

Ooh yes, that sounds much better.

I think I'd rather disassociate from that particular word as much as possible :smalltongue:

Ok fair enough. Then what about Pathmaker, Pathseeker.

Walker of the wilds is a mouthful and keeps making me want to type walker in the wastes, which is something I’d love to be converted to 5e

Kane0
2018-03-09, 04:59 PM
Well, it couldn't be any worse than Jack of All Trades, Ki-Empowered Strikes, Tongue of the Sun and Moon, Improved Divine Smite, Hide in Plain Sight, etc

You mean the PrC from It's Hot Outside? Would make for a decent subclass. A couple free spells known, some exhaustion abilities, sand minion ala Shadow Sorc Hound or Hexblade Spectre, and a dry lich capstone.

Arkhios
2018-03-10, 09:15 AM
If not Pathfinder, how about Trailblazer?

Kane0
2018-03-10, 04:59 PM
Yeah that works.

Also swapped around Favored enemy and Primal Awareness, makes more sense to have the language from the start and the magical scan after you get spellcasting.
Not sure what to do with vanish, seems sort of out of place since it's so late and no other abilities focus on stealth.

thegreatone5224
2018-03-11, 11:14 PM
I like what has been done with the Ranger thus far.

Keep up the good work!

Argothair
2018-03-12, 09:47 PM
I'm glad to see someone working on the Ranger class, but I'm not wild (heh) about all the free spells at Level 3, and I think your exploration / trailblazing abilities are both too narrow and too powerful.

Like, starting at Level 1, you can move stealthily across any type of normal or difficult terrain while tracking anyone you like, at no cost, all day long. That's not an exciting bonus; that's a mandatory dip. You'd be *crazy* to build a party that doesn't have at least one level of Ranger if your campaign *ever* features any kind of overland travel. That's an extremely powerful ability, and it's "always on" -- there's no drawback or downside or decision of any kind. You're not giving the player anything constructive to do; you're just eliminating one of a very small number of problems that would otherwise lend some interest to the part of the game where you're traveling between cities.

But, even all the way up through Level 20, you never get any kind of extra ability to anticipate the movements of your prey, or to blaze a trail that others can follow, or to find sources of food or water, or to improvise a shelter, or to predict or control the weather, or to run a marathon for faster or longer than other mortals, or to intuit the structure of a cave or cavern, or any of the other neat exploration abilities that we might expect from someone whose job is to heroically travel across the wilderness. So even though your exploration abilities are ultra-powerful, they're still quite limited, and that would probably be increasingly frustrating as you reach higher and higher levels. Your Ranger could starve to death in the forest at Level 15 if they didn't think to learn Goodberry or Create Food and Water. That shouldn't happen.

I like your version of Primeval Awareness and Healing Salves, and in particular I like that they give you something important to do with your WIS modifier besides just cast spells and detect rogues. Both of these seem fun, fair, and thematic.

I strongly agree with some of the earlier commenters who said your class is too front-loaded...the class is over-powered through about Level 8, and then there's really no reason at all to stay in the class after that. The 9th-level features is just half a level of spellcasting. Yawn. The 10th-level feature is the ability to walk at full speed through magically difficult terrain? Super-niche. How often do you have to march through magically difficult terrain? Maybe once a campaign? Even then, it probably doesn't matter how fast you get there. Level 13 is another half-level of spellcasting, and Level 14 is Primal Step, which seems like a weaker duplicate of your Level 1 Trailblazing ability. At Level 18 you get Feral Senses, which essentially lets you ignore Invisibility...but See Invisibility is a 2nd-level spell. By the time you hit Level 18, ordinary Invisibility really shouldn't be a major concern for your party.

Then finally you get this massive capstone, +2 to STR, DEX, CON and WIS at Level 20. That's powerful enough, but it's boring. I'm not going to take 12 more levels in this class just to get a quadruple ASI. A Level 20 capstone should really 'pop'; it should be the kind of thing that people like to brag about and reminisce about a year after the campaign ends. Nobody says "Hey, remember that one time when I had 22 STR and I shoved in a wooden door that was reinforced with iron hinges? And then I almost got a splinter, but I had 19 DEX, so I made my DEX save? That was the greatest."

Mortis_Elrod
2018-03-12, 10:42 PM
I'm glad to see someone working on the Ranger class, but I'm not wild (heh) about all the free spells at Level 3, and I think your exploration / trailblazing abilities are both too narrow and too powerful.

Like, starting at Level 1, you can move stealthily across any type of normal or difficult terrain while tracking anyone you like, at no cost, all day long. That's not an exciting bonus; that's a mandatory dip. You'd be *crazy* to build a party that doesn't have at least one level of Ranger if your campaign *ever* features any kind of overland travel. That's an extremely powerful ability, and it's "always on" -- there's no drawback or downside or decision of any kind. You're not giving the player anything constructive to do; you're just eliminating one of a very small number of problems that would otherwise lend some interest to the part of the game where you're traveling between cities.

Mandatory dip is a bit of an exaggeration and also costly. Sometimes a campaign will start off and not even be able to use this feature and then suddenly you need to track something down. You can't wait to dip, and there was no way to know that the DM would plan this far ahead. AND its only benefiting The Ranger not the whole party. So unless this suddenly became a solo game, the team is still needed. Suffice to say its not all that powerful but is indeed useful when it comes up. This doesn't mean you track and stealth perfectly. You still have to roll for that. This lets you do it without being slowed down by the terrain or by having to navigate difficult places. I think you don't understand what the ability actually does.




But, even all the way up through Level 20, you never get any kind of extra ability to anticipate the movements of your prey, or to blaze a trail that others can follow, or to find sources of food or water, or to improvise a shelter, or to predict or control the weather, or to run a marathon for faster or longer than other mortals, or to intuit the structure of a cave or cavern, or any of the other neat exploration abilities that we might expect from someone whose job is to heroically travel across the wilderness. So even though your exploration abilities are ultra-powerful, they're still quite limited, and that would probably be increasingly frustrating as you reach higher and higher levels. Your Ranger could starve to death in the forest at Level 15 if they didn't think to learn Goodberry or Create Food and Water. That shouldn't happen.

A large part of that can be covered with survival, nature, athletics skills. And if you noticed this ranger has prepared casting, he won't be starving. You blaze a trail because you don't have to stop moving or slow down when you are hunting/tracking/stealthing through the jungle floor. You won't have to slow down and get your bearings back to navigate because the terrain is too confusing. At level 10 this means not even magic can slow your travel down.



I strongly agree with some of the earlier commenters who said your class is too front-loaded...the class is over-powered through about Level 8, and then there's really no reason at all to stay in the class after that. The 9th-level features is just half a level of spellcasting. Yawn. The 10th-level feature is the ability to walk at full speed through magically difficult terrain? Super-niche. How often do you have to march through magically difficult terrain? Maybe once a campaign? Even then, it probably doesn't matter how fast you get there. Level 13 is another half-level of spellcasting, and Level 14 is Primal Step, which seems like a weaker duplicate of your Level 1 Trailblazing ability. At Level 18 you get Feral Senses, which essentially lets you ignore Invisibility...but See Invisibility is a 2nd-level spell. By the time you hit Level 18, ordinary Invisibility really shouldn't be a major concern for your party.

Ok so breaking this down.

9th: 3rd level spells. Some of these are really strong and remember you are prepared caster so you can pick and choose each day.

10th: Favored enemy is changeable every day. Which basically means most of the time you always get this ability. This is not only a combat bonus (1 = 2 for damage rolls; can't be surprised by FE), you can also change that language you learned. Your trailblazer lets you navigate, travel, and track without any worry from magical things. This is Magical Immunity to a good chunk of All Travel, Tracking, and Navigating. This isn't even locked to a terrain, which is great for urban settings too. This makes the Ranger a really great scout because nothing can slow/stop his pursuits with magic or natural things.

11th: Subclass Feature which are all good here. Hunter is Rain of Iron or Relentless Hunter both of which are very good and no cost. Beast Master gets potentially 4 more HP to their pet, and that pet can attack twice now. I'll only mention these because the others are brewed and not revisions, but Kane_0 mentions that the other claves cant be used here, Monster Slayer, Horizon Walker, and Gloomstalker all have good level 11 features. You also get 1 more spell slot.

12th: ASI. So maybe stop here if you don't like whats coming. still ASI is great.

13th: 4th level spells. Will also mention that Beast Master scales best with Ranger level. Every level is more HP and potential healing to the pet. 4th level spells may not seam great but consider that Unerring Accuracy gets a bigger dice to use, and again i will mention prepared casting, which makes it alot easier to use the ranger list.

14th: Primal Sep. This is not like trailblazer which specifically calls out navigating and tracking, which means exploration. Primal Step is a combat buff. Immunity to difficult terrain. All of it. which may seem like a weak feature at first but difficult terrain is great way to control large areas and the ranger can charge through them. It broadens a teams way to use the Ranger in combat. Difficult terrain can mean life and death sometimes.

15th: More subclass features and all of them are great. Not to mention another spell slot.

16th: ASI. It is at this point that you might as well finish the class. 17-20 gives you slots, ASIs, and Feral Senses. Feral senses is basically immune to disadvantage when attacking someone you cant see, and also always being aware of invisible people around you. Thats a good ability but really late in the game. True while you can replicate this with spells, imagine how many spell slots you'd use to do it always. How much concentration you'd have to hold. I think such a permanent effect is worth it.



Then finally you get this massive capstone, +2 to STR, DEX, CON and WIS at Level 20. That's powerful enough, but it's boring. I'm not going to take 12 more levels in this class just to get a quadruple ASI. A Level 20 capstone should really 'pop'; it should be the kind of thing that people like to brag about and reminisce about a year after the campaign ends. Nobody says "Hey, remember that one time when I had 22 STR and I shoved in a wooden door that was reinforced with iron hinges? And then I almost got a splinter, but I had 19 DEX, so I made my DEX save? That was the greatest."

Consider looking at it like getting 4 ASIs . Because thats what it is(with stipulations). There are plenty of level 20 abilities that are not so flashy. I think this is perfect for a Ranger who isn't the flashiest class to begin with and shouldn't be. Rangers are remembered in how they use their abilities, not necessarily what those abilities are.


I see alot of reasons to play this all the way to 20.

Argothair
2018-03-13, 12:16 AM
Like, starting at Level 1, you can move stealthily across any type of normal or difficult terrain while tracking anyone you like, at no cost, all day long.

Sometimes a campaign will start off and not even be able to use this feature and then suddenly you need to track something down...AND its only benefiting The Ranger not the whole party.

Eh, I'm not buying it. "Suddenly" you need to track something down? In Dungeons & Dragons? A quarter of the game is tracking things down. If you're not looking for the Lost MacGuffin of Doom, you're trying to track Dracula to his lair or rescue the princess or reach the fabled City of Shiny Plot Hooks. There's always some travel. Being able to get other stuff done while traveling with no loss of time is a huge bonus. It doesn't matter that only one party member has the ability, because you only need one -- the whole party travels at normal speed while the Ranger stealthily scouts ahead, or the whole party travels at normal speed while the Ranger forages enough food for everyone to eat. Even if only one player can take the action, the whole party benefits.


A large part of that can be covered with survival, nature, athletics skills.

Well, maybe the Ranger should have some way to get Expertise in Survival and Nature, then.


And if you noticed this ranger has prepared casting, he won't be starving.

I did not notice that. Fair point. Prepared casting does help, so the Ranger won't starve. My mistake.


Ok so breaking this down.

9th: 3rd level spells. Some of these are really strong and remember you are prepared caster so you can pick and choose each day.

10th: Favored enemy is changeable every day. Which basically means most of the time you always get this ability. This is not only a combat bonus (1 = 2 for damage rolls; can't be surprised by FE), you can also change that language you learned. Your trailblazer lets you navigate, travel, and track without any worry from magical things. This is Magical Immunity to a good chunk of All Travel, Tracking, and Navigating. This isn't even locked to a terrain, which is great for urban settings too. This makes the Ranger a really great scout because nothing can slow/stop his pursuits with magic or natural things.

11th: Subclass Feature which are all good here. Hunter is Rain of Iron or Relentless Hunter both of which are very good and no cost. Beast Master gets potentially 4 more HP to their pet, and that pet can attack twice now. I'll only mention these because the others are brewed and not revisions, but Kane_0 mentions that the other claves cant be used here, Monster Slayer, Horizon Walker, and Gloomstalker all have good level 11 features. You also get 1 more spell slot.

12th: ASI. So maybe stop here if you don't like whats coming. still ASI is great.

13th: 4th level spells. Will also mention that Beast Master scales best with Ranger level. Every level is more HP and potential healing to the pet. 4th level spells may not seam great but consider that Unerring Accuracy gets a bigger dice to use, and again i will mention prepared casting, which makes it alot easier to use the ranger list.

So 3rd-level spells are fine...but you're only adding them to your repertoire half as quickly as a Cleric or Druid. Every time you take a level in Ranger instead of a level in Cleric or Druid, you're forfeiting half of your potential magical power. A Ranger 8 / Druid 12 has 8th-level spell slots. A Ranger 20 only has 5th-level spell slots. There's a big difference. What do you get for that sacrifice at Ranger Level 9, Level 13, and Level 17? If you're in the Beastmaster Conclave, you get +4 HP for your Beast. If you're in any other Conclave, you get nothing. To me that seems like a lousy trade.

The subclass features are fine. I have nothing against the subclass features; it's the core class that bothers me. Obviously ASIs are fine too.


14th: Primal Sep. This is not like trailblazer which specifically calls out navigating and tracking, which means exploration. Primal Step is a combat buff. Immunity to difficult terrain. All of it. which may seem like a weak feature at first but difficult terrain is great way to control large areas and the ranger can charge through them. It broadens a teams way to use the Ranger in combat. Difficult terrain can mean life and death sometimes.

15th: More subclass features and all of them are great. Not to mention another spell slot.

16th: ASI. It is at this point that you might as well finish the class. 17-20 gives you slots, ASIs, and Feral Senses. Feral senses is basically immune to disadvantage when attacking someone you cant see, and also always being aware of invisible people around you. Thats a good ability but really late in the game. True while you can replicate this with spells, imagine how many spell slots you'd use to do it always. How much concentration you'd have to hold. I think such a permanent effect is worth it.

20th: Consider looking at it like getting 4 ASIs . Because thats what it is(with stipulations). There are plenty of level 20 abilities that are not so flashy. I think this is perfect for a Ranger who isn't the flashiest class to begin with and shouldn't be. Rangers are remembered in how they use their abilities, not necessarily what those abilities are.


I think on the final levels, we mostly disagree about game design and what's fun -- it's a disagreement about preferences, not a disagreement about facts. If Primal Step lets you ignore difficult terrain in combat, then I don't want it. Difficult terrain is one of the few features that makes D&D combat tactically interesting. For the most part, we don't bother to track flanking, we don't bother to track elevation, we don't bother to track posture/stance, we don't bother to track being out of breath...darn near the only things that matter in combat is how many HP you have, how much damage per round you can dish out, and whether you can move fast enough to gang up on a weak enemy. Difficult terrain is darn near the only way of constraining when/whether you can move fast enough to gang up on a weak enemy. Take that away, and combat gets less interesting and therefore less fun.

Same thing with getting 4 ASIs as your capstone ability -- it's fine if you enjoy that sort of thing, but for me, that just doesn't strike me as fun. I don't really know what you mean by "rangers are remembered in how they use their abilities, not necessarily what those abilities are." That sounds like something the football coach would say to get me to run extra laps and feel good about it. It's sort of a catchy pep talk without any real content. Any player can use their abilities cleverly; that's the job of a good player. The job of a good homebrew designer is to make awesome abilities that are fun even when they're used by an average player. I don't see any special reason why rangers (as opposed to other classes) should have to put extra work into figuring out how to use their abilities cleverly.

I will double down on the "See Invisibility" issue and insist that being able to see invisible creatures is way too weak for an 18th-level ability. You know how I would see invisible creatures? I'd carry around 3 silver pieces' worth of talcum powder and cast the cantrip "Gust."

Anyway, thanks for the lively debate. I enjoy discussing these kinds of things. :-)

Kane0
2018-03-13, 12:41 AM
On frontloading: Compare to paladin, it was my reference point. Divine sense vs Primal Awareness, detection abilities at reversed levels to Divine Health and Trailblazer. Favored enemy in place of Lay on Hands. All of level 2 is analogous. The only addition is Keen Eye, which is the Ranger's answer to Rogue Cunning Action and an active ability at level 1 where the other two are passive bonuses (or ribbons, depending on opinion).

On trailblazer: In my experience that in play the travel portion of D&D is largely glossed over, often because it is necessary to the plot and will happen regardless. In these cases the whole ability really is a ribbon, much like the Outlander background ability. What I made it do was provide some sort of benefit no matter where you are and without interfering with skills and background features.

On expertise in Nature/Survival: I'd love to, but it would either frontload the class even more or come way too late. Can't have everything, and two other classes already get expertise, not counting subclasses and feats.

On level 9/13/17: I originally did have things in here, but then I looked over the paladin and said to myself 'yeah that's probably too much'

On the capstone: I struggled with it for a while, and settled on it eventually because of all the changes I made that encourage MADness while also taking a leaf out of the barbarian's book. It's functional, not flashy, and reinforces the things that the ranger does already in most ways. Still taking ideas though.

On Primal Step: It's 1/3 of Freedom of Movement at all times, no concentration or dispelling, without stepping in on the Mobile feat. Yes it impacts the tactical side of the game but I wanted to emphasise a hit and run sort of style for the Ranger from the start (I took out a lot of that but you can still see it in the hunter's abilities).

On Feral Senses: At one stage I had it ignore either Blindness or deafness as long as you weren't subject to both, as well as being aware of invisible creatures nearby. But then I remembered that wouldn't actually help you fight invisible enemies.

There was a ton of conversation about the ranger in general here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?552649-Why-is-Ranger-considered-underpowered), it really impacted some of my recent changes.

Edit: and of course, loving the feedback!

Edit edit: the bonus spells are one of each spell level 1-5, exactly the same as the xanathar’s subclass bonus spells.

Argothair
2018-03-13, 02:46 AM
Hey, Kane0. I don't want to criticize your class too harshly or too often; I do think you're putting a lot of thought into it, and it's giving us a great basis for discussion.

But, since you say you're loving the feedback...let's go ahead and compare your Reworked Beastmaster Ranger to the Devotion Paladin.

At lower levels, the Ranger is better. Keen Eye gives you a Search every single turn, which can be used for any purpose. Divine Sense only detects a narrow subset of extremely good or extremely evil things, and you can only use it 3 or 4 times per long rest. The Ranger gets the Hand-and-a-Half Fighting Style, which gives you +1 to-hit and +1 damage on every attack with a two-handed versatile weapon. The Paladin only gets Great Weapon Fighting. With a d10 weapon, that's a 20% chance of upgrading an average roll of 1.5 to an average roll of 5.5 -- so you've got a 20% chance of gaining 4 damage...which works out to slightly less than +1 damage. The Ranger gets Trailblazing at Level 1 -- even if that's a ribbon, it's an amazing ribbon that lots of people will want to dip for. The Paladin gets nothing comparable at Level 1 and has to wait until Level 3 to pick up Divine Health, which I'd argue is much more situational -- being able to forage, sneak, and track without a speed penalty is much easier to benefit from than being immune to disease. There's *always* some travel in a campaign; there's *not* always a hospital or a plague.

At later levels, the Paladin is better.

HP Bonuses

With each Ranger level, the Beast gets +4 HP. Only the Beast can benefit from them.
With each Paladin level, you get 5 HP of healing, which can be applied to you, to an animal companion, to an ally, or to a captured enemy. You can also substitute a cure poison or cure disease for the HP.

Defense and Abilities

By Level 11, the Ranger can walk calmly across magically difficult terrain, gets 1/3 of the Mobile feat, and can help his buddies out with healing salves, which work somewhere in between Cure Wounds (a 1st-level spell) and Lesser Restoration (a 2nd-level spell). That's not *nothing*, but it's not impressive, either.

By Level 11, the Paladin gives himself *and* his buddies immunity to being Charmed or Frightened, and +3 or +4 on *all* saving throws. That strikes me as an extremely valuable defensive ability.

Damage per Round

Let's test out the sustainable damage per round for the two classes. We'll arm them both with Battleaxes (versatile 1d8 -> 1d10) and 16 STR (+3 damage). The Paladin will use Great Weapon fighting style with the Dual Wielding feat. The Ranger will use Hand-and-a-Half fighting style with the Savage Attacker feat. Both characters are Level 11, and so they have +4 Proficiency.

Per the playtest rules for Ranger v1.2, a 1/4 CR Beast should not be able to deal more than 8 damage with a single attack, so figure your Ranger's Beast starts at 1d8 damage per turn. By Level 11, you can command your Beast to attack twice with a bonus action, and you yourself can attack twice with your action. Let's say you use a versatile Battleaxe to take advantage of your Hand-and-a-Half style. You deal (d10 + 1 + STR + Prof.) on both of your attacks, so each Battleaxe attack does 13.5 damage -- 27 total. Your Beast deals (d8 + Prof.) on both of its attacks, so each Beast attack deals 8.5 damage -- 17 total. You can re-roll your lowest attack, which probably means re-rolling a 2 and getting an average of 5 -- so your feat gives you +3 damage. 27 + 17 + 3 = 47 sustainable damage. Not bad.

The Paladin gets +1d8 radiant damage on every single melee attack, so if you dual-wield a pair of warhammers (versatile) with the Dual Wielding feat and use your extra attack, you get:
First Attack, Right Hand: 1d8 bludgeon + 1d8 radiant + STR + Prof. (16 damage)
First Attack, Left Hand: 1d8 bludgeon + 1d8 radiant + Prof. (13 damage)
Extra Attack, Both Hands: 1d10 bludgeon + 1d8 radiant + STR + Prof. (17 damage)

Plus, your Great Weapon Master ability lets you re-roll every 1 and every 2. Since you're rolling 6 dice every turn and you have almost a 25% chance of rolling a 1 or a 2 on each die, that's about 1.5 rerolls, each of which is worth about 2.6 damage...so call it a boost of 4 damage.

16 + 13 + 17 + 4 damage = 50 sustainable damage per turn.

Another point to keep in mind is that Divine Smite is much better than Unerring Precision at higher levels...with three attacks per round, the Dual Wielding Paladin is very unlikely to miss on every single attack...and so if the Paladin wants to go nova, he can burn literally all of his spell slots to deal outrageous damage as long as he hits with at least one blow. You also get 2d8 damage per first-level spell slot (or 3d8 if you're fighting undead), so that's worth an average of 9 damage.

Unerring Precision lets you use a spell slot for a better chance to succeed on a missed melee attack, but your best weapon attack is only dealing an average of 13.5 damage...and there's no guarantee that the d4 you roll on a 1st-level spell slot will actually help. Some of your missed rolls will be way off, like, you rolled a 2 (+ 3 STR + 4 Prof.) = 9, but your enemy's AC is 16. A d4 is useless in that situation. Some of your missed rolls will be close, like, you rolled a 7 (+3 STR + 4 Prof.) = 14, but your enemy's AC is 16...so your d4 will only work if you roll a 3 or a 4, i.e., half the time -- so your d4 is only worth 13.5 / 2 = 7 points. In the very rare situation where you miss your Ranger's attack roll by exactly one point, then, sure, your spell slot is worth 13.5 damage. But more likely you either hit (in which case the d4 is useless) or your missed by a mile (in which case the d4 is useless) or you missed by 3 or 4 points (in which case the d4 is worth 7 points or less) or you missed with your Beast's attack (in which case the d4 is worth 8 points or less). No matter *how* the dice shake out, you still can't go nova with Unerring Precision...the best you can do is guarantee yourself three hits. But the Paladin can guarantee himself the *equivalent* of 3 hits (or more) by just burning spell slots for automatic damage, whereas you have to burn a spell slot just for a chance at undoing your miss and getting back up to a full turn of ordinary damage.

So it's not a situation where the Paladin is better at novas and the Ranger is better at sustainable damage...the Paladin is better at *both*.

Kane0
2018-03-13, 04:40 AM
C'mon, let me have it :smallbiggrin:

Pally can get Hand-and-a-half and polearm styles too, as can fighters and valor bards. Anyone that gets fighting style really. I still need to think of a good throwing fighting style though.

Divine Sense: Same number of uses, secondary stat mod times per day. I think Divine Sense is geared more towards a short range deception piercer whereas Primal Awareness is like a long range radar giving an inclination of what's out there but no detail. Different, but equal (hopefully).

Trailblazer i'm happy to take suggestions and iterate, it's a fine line between 'this class is the exploration king' and 'this class invalidates exploration'. As I said though, travel seems to be downplayed unfortunately often so actual impact is has on the game is pretty variable.

HP: Well, Salves are a standin for Lay on Hands and their poison/disease curing abilities, plus beastmasters can heal their companion once per short rest too. I'd say they are comparable.

Defense/party support: Totally fair, ranger doesn't get the same calibre of stuff that paladins do. Well, hunters get a bit.

Damage: Lots to break down, and it gets complicated fast cause I have additional houserules in play, which can all be found in my sigged thread
Using a typical Wolf companion for the ranger, they can do two axe hits (1d10 + 1 + Str) plus two wolf attacks (2d4 + 6) as a bonus action. At str 18 that's 10.5 +10.5 +11 +11 = 43 enjoying a +1 to hit over the pally
Stated dual wielding pally gets his three swings and keeps his bonus action free for 2d8 + Str each. So at the same 18 Str thats 13 +13 +13 +4 from Dual Wielder feat = 43. He can also dual strike with his opportunity attacks, but where are you getting his +prof to damage on each hit though?

Unerring precision: definitely less useful than divine smite, and that's intentional. Paladins can feel safe using all their slots to rack up extra damage, unerring precision is more niche. It's useful as a cushion against wasted spells such as lightning arrow, is great with hunter rain of iron and it's always handy to have an instant bless on hand when you absolutely have to land a hit before something horrible happens. If we wanted more power out of it though we could easily make it two dice instead of one.

Mortis_Elrod
2018-03-13, 02:50 PM
on the topic of a Ranger/Cleric or Ranger/Druid. You asked 'what do you get ...'

I'd argue that MCing is largely depending on what the character you want to make should be able to do.

If you wanted to be a spellcaster than yes spell casting classes should be what you want. But if you wanted Ranger spells, or Ranger abilities (includes subclass you cant get hunter abilties without the ranger levels), Or just wanted to be a Martial character first, spellcaster second, then haveing more ranger levels works out better.

But in my eyes Cleric is very much a class that can stop at 8, so i would make it Ranger 12/Cleric 8.

In any case its a preference issue here the subclasses and ASIs and Ranger spells make it worth it to me. YMMV. Improved Favored Enemy is definitely worth it to me, so is Trailblazer though niche it is.



On the matter of Feral senses. It's not only see invisibility for free and always. Its also never having to worry about disadvantage when attacking things you can't see. Perhaps a bit too late at 18th level, but undeniably good. And invisible enemies that are scaled to fight you a that level could be potentially challenging. Its useful for anybody not trying to pocket sand, which is something ive seen frowned upon alot.

Moxxmix
2018-03-13, 11:09 PM
Doing a little fragment analysis, partially based on my own attempt at a ranger build.

The archetypes get features at 3, 7, 11, and 15. This matches the PHB and UA rangers, though UA adds one more at level 5 because they shift Extra Attack into the archetype, rather than have it in the main class. This gives more flexibility with balancing the pet against extra attack.

The general class of features is roughly:

3: attack
7: defense
11: attack
15: defense

The attack features make the ranger (or pet) stronger, and the defense features either improve defense, or add versatility.

The archetypes from Xanathar's modify this approach a bit.

3: attack
3: improved senses
7: defense
11: attack
15: defense

Misc: Bonus spells

I would expect this to be the base pattern for any ranger archetype from here on out. (And if doing a rewrite, I'd move Extra Attack into the archetype list as well, at level 5.)

Since the archetype tends to be the focus of combat improvements, the main class ends up focusing on utility. In terms of the pillars, the subclass handles combat, while the main class handles exploration and social.

The main class improves as follows (ignoring Fighting Style and spellcasting at level 2):

1: Favored Enemy, Natural Explorer - They have their issues, but things start off here
3: improved senses (Primeval Awareness)
5: Extra Attack (can shift to archetype)
6: FE/NE improvements
8: improved movement (Land's Stride)
10: NE improvement, stealth (HIPS)
14: FE improvement, stealth (Vanish)
18: improved senses (Feral Senses)
20: capstone

So some sort of improvement every couple levels, stretching to 4 levels when above 10. However most of those improvements tend to be fairly problematic.

The UA ranger progression is almost the same, except without putting all the partial improvements to FE and NE in there.


Kane0's progresses as:

1: FE, improved senses (Keen Eye), improved movement (Trailblazer)
3: improved senses (Primeval Awareness)
5: Extra Attack, improved movement
6: Healing Salves
10: FE and TB improvements
14: improved movement (Primal Step)
18: improved senses (Feral Senses)
20: capstone

Trailblazer largely replaced Natural Explorer. Kane0 doesn't provide anything special at level 8.

I've done my own rewrite that focused heavily on the perception aspect of the ranger, tied into environmental bonuses. It has the main class progression as:

1: FE, NE, improved senses (Keen Eye)
3: improved senses (Primeval Awareness)
5: improved senses/improved movement (Environmental Adaptation)
6: improved FE, improved PA
8: improved movement/combat/stealth (Land's Stride+)
10: improved EA
14: improved senses (Feral Senses)
18: ???
20: capstone

I rewrote Natural Explorer as well. It's similar in some ways to Trailblazer.


But basically all versions are trying to find ways to make the main class as useful as possible without giving direct combat benefits (excepting Extra Attack, which should be moved to the archetypes). There's focus on enhancing the Exploration pillar (without obviating it entirely), improving movement, improving senses, and a small nod towards stealth.

Kane0 adds something very different, in the Healing Salves. It certainly fits the theme of the ranger, even though it's partially redundant with Cure Wounds, which is a spell ranger can get. As nice as it feels, I'd really think it's better to just leave it as a spell, and you can roleplay that the spell is a salve you brew up if you like. (There was a ranger in a past game I played that did exactly that.) The main non-spell thing it gives is advantage on poison and disease saves, and you might be able to get those with just a basic Medicine check.

For my own attempt, I'm lacking a feature at 18. I'm just really not sure what would be useful there, after moving Feral Senses down to 14 (as I agree that level 18 is rather late, for that). Maybe a 'shortcut' ability, for a vaguely teleportation-like effect during travel. (A group movement feature actually sounds pretty good, as it reminds me of the Storm Sorcerer getting party-wide flight at level 18, and those level groups wanting to [i]move rather than fiddle around with minor travel stuff. I'll probably add that.) (Edit: Actually, it really meshes nicely with Primeval Awareness. I quite like the feature.)


The question is, does this base ranger class really hold up as useful in non-combat situations? Since most of its combat abilities are pushed into the archetypes, all the main class features need to make it really useful in its role in exploring, and certain social niches (eg: can you convince this tribe of pygmy cannibals not to eat your party?). How would you rate the viability of the core class for those scenarios?

Kane0
2018-03-13, 11:59 PM
Kane0 adds something very different, in the Healing Salves. It certainly fits the theme of the ranger, even though it's partially redundant with Cure Wounds, which is a spell ranger can get. As nice as it feels, I'd really think it's better to just leave it as a spell, and you can roleplay that the spell is a salve you brew up if you like. (There was a ranger in a past game I played that did exactly that.) The main non-spell thing it gives is advantage on poison and disease saves, and you might be able to get those with just a basic Medicine check.

I can't claim credit, this first showed up in the spell-less ranger UA. I just liked it so much I thought i'd keep it. Paladins get Lay on Hands in addition to Cure Wounds, plus Celestial Warlocks and Dream Druids have similar abilities. I think there's enough precedent.



For my own attempt, I'm lacking a feature at 18. I'm just really not sure what would be useful there, after moving Feral Senses down to 14 (as I agree that level 18 is rather late, for that). Maybe a 'shortcut' ability, for a vaguely teleportation-like effect during travel. (A group movement feature actually sounds pretty good, as it reminds me of the Storm Sorcerer getting party-wide flight at level 18, and those level groups wanting to move rather than fiddle around with minor travel stuff. I'll probably add that.)

Expanding the benefits of previous ranger features to your party within 30 feet or so seems appropriate, though maybe not FE's bonus language.



The question is, does this base ranger class really hold up as useful in non-combat situations? Since most of its combat abilities are pushed into the archetypes, all the main class features need to make it really useful in its role in exploring, and certain social niches (eg: can you convince this tribe of pygmy cannibals not to eat your party?). How would you rate the viability of the core class for those scenarios?
I hope so. The original Skirmish ability (move 10', extra scaling die of damage on weapon attacks that turn) I really liked but I figured it too powerful when used in conjunction with the combat-heavy subclasses and spells like hunter's mark.
Rangers still get one more skill proficiency than normal, and wisdom (for insight) is at least a secondary stat so i'd say they are at least as useful as most classes others in social situations. The social pillar isn't the strength of the ranger though, it emphasizes exploration instead. That's why i removed the advantage on Cha checks vs favored enemies I had at one point. Can't have them doing everything.

Still seriously tossing up whether to have Primal Awareness at level 1 or 3, swapping with either FE or Trailblazer. It's a magical ability which makes more sense after casting is granted, but that means two big, defining ranger abilities granted at the same level which feels crowded and extra frontheavy.

Edit: And enough people have mentioned that level 18 is really late for Feral senses so moving that to 14 works for me, though I'm not sure what to do with the ignore difficult terrain thing. Seems really good to roll into Trailblazer from the start but as part of the level 10 improvement it seems alright. And that leaves me with an empty level 18 as well.

Moxxmix
2018-03-14, 12:40 AM
I can't claim credit, this first showed up in the spell-less ranger UA. I just liked it so much I thought i'd keep it. Paladins get Lay on Hands in addition to Cure Wounds, plus Celestial Warlocks and Dream Druids have similar abilities. I think there's enough precedent.
Hmm. It's fine for a spell-less ranger, but I think it messes up the focus of the build for a standard ranger.


Expanding the benefits of previous ranger features to your party within 30 feet or so seems appropriate, though maybe not FE's bonus language.
I ended up making the Shortcut feature, and I rather like the synergy for it.


Shortcut: At 18th level you are so familiar with the land that you can find shortcuts that drastically reduce travel time.

After using Primeval Awareness [WIS mod per day], you may guide your party through a shortcut to any location within the maximum range you could sense using Primeval Awareness (including the Favored Enemy bonus, and Environmental Adaptation, if applicable) [3 miles for Favored Enemy, doubled to 6 miles in adapted environment, doubled to 12 miles if you apply concentration (which is optional, to avoid interfering with any concentration spells you're maintaining)] at a rate of 1 minute per mile. If your destination is a settlement, you arrive at its outskirts.
So up to 12 mile jumps in any direction, possibly dropping right in on your searched-for enemy type, WIS mod times per day. A theoretical max of 60 miles in 1 hour with 20 Wis, but a shorter practical range shouldn't matter for most purposes. More limited range than Wind Walk, but twice as fast and without the downsides when exiting.

Part of it works because I added extra range doubling features (once from Environmental Adaptation, and once by allowing concentration after Primeval Awareness 'improves' at level 6 to account for the Greater Favored Enemies). Also, I assume the max range, which is 3 miles for favored enemy rather than the base 1 mile. Subject to tweaking.

It mainly feels like a flavorful and useful alternative to teleportation and similar spells, and fitting the ranger theme. It also works in conjunction with the 'urban' environmental adaptation to move quickly through town. Granting any other abilities to the entire party (other than the Natural Explorer benefits, which is already available at level 1) doesn't seem to fit as well.


I hope so. The original Skirmish ability (move 10', extra scaling die of damage on weapon attacks that turn) I really liked but I figured it too powerful when used in conjunction with the combat-heavy subclasses and spells like hunter's mark.

Rangers still get one more skill proficiency than normal, and wisdom (for insight) is at least a secondary stat so i'd say they are at least as useful as most classes others in social situations. The social pillar isn't the strength of the ranger though, it emphasizes exploration instead. That's why i removed the advantage on Cha checks vs favored enemies I had at one point. Can't have them doing everything.

Still seriously tossing up whether to have Primal Awareness at level 1 or 3, swapping with either FE or Trailblazer. It's a magical ability which makes more sense after casting is granted, but that means two big, defining ranger abilities granted at the same level which feels crowded and extra frontheavy.
Advantage on social rolls with favored enemies sounds fine. The ranger is much less likely to be the diplomat (or only under duress), but it certainly fits for deception and intimidation, or even knowing how to plead for your life. It doesn't have to be all charm and seduction.

Primeval Awareness seems perfectly fine at level 3. I don't see any reason to drop it to level 1. It builds on top of the tracking advantage you can get via Favored Enemy (at least if you improve the information it grants you).

Mortis_Elrod
2018-03-19, 09:02 PM
Something i wanted some clarification over was the blueblood,greenblood, redblood thing you mention in Favored Enemy. Its a distinction of humanoid races im not really familiar with, and i'd like to know since im going to be testing this rework out soon.

Kane0
2018-03-19, 09:32 PM
Oh yeah sure, thats a worldbuilding thing so i have it stashed in different notes to my rules changes. Originally posted here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?535178-Breaking-campaign-sterotypes-role-reversal&p=22350611&postcount=14#post22350611).

Humanoids are basically split into three broad categories, classified by the color of their blood. Thats where the label bloodrace comes from.

Redbloods: Humans, Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, Gnomes, Goliath, etc
Greenbloods: Orcs, Goblinoids, Minotaurs, Gnolls and so on
Bluebloods: Lizardfolk, dragonborn, Yuan-Ti, Kobolds

Any two creatures of the same blood type have a good chance at being able to produce viable offspring (anatomy notwithstanding), but blood types cannot be mixed. Essentially there are only three actual 'races', and each one has many variations which take the form of what you see in the PHB and other books. This makes homebrewing extra races like Mul easy, and half-orcs just have another greenblood instead of human as their non-orc half. Note that two elf parents wont suddenly have a gnome child, because that would be silly.

Planetouched (Tiefling, Aasimar, Genasi, etc) and Revenants can come from any blood type. Sort of like a template.

Mortis_Elrod
2018-03-20, 06:09 AM
That makes a lot of sense. I’ll introduce the concept to my DM.

I can’t wait to play Bubba Jebidiah Gump, Gatorkin Rangler