Ranger Update/Fix/Alternative/Rework

[Kane0]

Hey everybody, I've been working on some ranger changes for my group and I thought i'd share what I came up with. I'd love some feedback if anyone has the time (either here or there).

Linky link. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?462877-Ranger-Rework-v1-2)

I'm quite happy with the base of the class so far based on my group's playtest, its the subclasses that I'm not too sure on. The Hunter's capstone as well as the Spirit Walker's Spirits and Capstone have all caught my eye as candidates for a nerf, but I'd like to get some feedback beforehand.

Thanks in advance!

[Kane0]

Quick bump. I'd hate to see the people discard the poor ranger more than he has already, and I like the efforts UA has made to try and bring him up to standard.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

You might want to post this over on the homebrew forum.

[Mara]

I would be hesitant to allow this class even if you removed spell casting.

You have far too many abilities. Most of them are minor bonuses but in 5e that can add up very quickly leading to a character that is complicated, boring, and overpowered.

[mephnick]

I do like the change to primeval awareness, but doing a homebrew ranger you need to remember that they aren't weak mechanically. They don't need buffing in combat. The problems people have with rangers is thematic. Changes like primeval awareness are good because they allow the ranger to do what they need to do to be rangers without sacrificing the other few options they have, like spell slots.

[Malknafein]

I checked only 1-5 levels and I think that Skirmish and Alacrity are very overpowered. Let me break this! :smallredface:

Variant Human Rogue 3/Ranger 5/Fighter 2

16+2 DEX

Alert feat, +2d6 Sneak Attack, Cunning Action, Assassinate, +1d6 Skirmish, Alacrity, 2 Fighting Styles(Dueling, Archery), Spellcasting, Extra Attack, Action Surge.

Initiative: 4 DEX + 4 Proficiency + 5 Alert = +13

Cast Hunter`s Mark on enemy, that hasn`t taken a turn in combat yet and charge in him, while wielding rapier+shield. You will have 5 attacks with advantage - 2 for your action, 1 for Alacrity, 2 for Action Surge. Each attack deals 1d8(rapier)+1d6(Skirmish)+1d6(Hunter`s Mark) +4(DEX)+2(Dueling) and first attack deals extra 2d6 for Sneak Attack. Average damage is 94.5(5d8+12d6+30).

If your enemy is surprised you will crit at each attack. Average damage will be 159(10d8+24d6+30).

As alternative, you can use bow instead rapier - less damage, more chances to hit. Rogue`s Cunning Action helps to Disengage as bonus action and to land SKirmish damage at each turn even for melee character.

[Natasha]

From a purely mechanical standpoint, the Skirmishing feature is all but meant to work with TWFing or some other way of getting bonus attacks per turn. Combine with the Beastmaster subclass, and we're talking about someone who's effectively on par with a GWM without needing a feat or accuracy boosting features. Considering that many people consider that combination to be OP, that's something to note.

Alacrity is a concern for nova style attacks as well - its basically an Action Surge. Combining a non-rest dependant action surge, FS, and skirmisher puts the Ranger ahead of the Fighter in terms of combat ability, plus a host of non-combat effects.

I kind of liked the thematic split between the 3e inspired Beastmaster and the 4e derived Hunter with striker feature instead of animal.

Not sure on the point of Healing Salves - the Ranger does have healing spells (freed up more with Skirmish) and can access a healing kit.

Beastmaster gets damage increase at level 10, making the Precision-as-tier-power-bump redundant. Worse, at this point in the game, we're quickly approaching the point where accuracy isn't as important as raw damage per hit, or more strikes, making "reliability" a bit redundant. Not sure which Unearthed Article Precision comes from, though. Link?

Master of the Wild - meh. while it looks like a lot... its really just an effective minor attribute bump to hp and your weapon hand. Wis has little effect for most builds, so I don't consider that too be that great either. Strength and Constitution are huge with the Barbarian, which is why +4 to each is so huge. A middling bump for a class that's not as married to those stats is nice, but hardly that big of a deal.

[Kane0]

I would be hesitant to allow this class even if you removed spell casting.

You have far too many abilities. Most of them are minor bonuses but in 5e that can add up very quickly leading to a character that is complicated, boring, and overpowered.


Very true. I'm working through the active and passive abilities, going to see what I can streamline.


I do like the change to primeval awareness, but doing a homebrew ranger you need to remember that they aren't weak mechanically. They don't need buffing in combat. The problems people have with rangers is thematic. Changes like primeval awareness are good because they allow the ranger to do what they need to do to be rangers without sacrificing the other few options they have, like spell slots.


Thankyou. Sacrificing spell slots is a problem I was looking to clear up, especially reliance on hunters mark and similar to keep DPS competitive with other classes.


I checked only 1-5 levels and I think that Skirmish and Alacrity are very overpowered. Let me break this! :smallredface:

Variant Human Rogue 3/Ranger 5/Fighter 2

16+2 DEX

Alert feat, +2d6 Sneak Attack, Cunning Action, Assassinate, +1d6 Skirmish, Alacrity, 2 Fighting Styles(Dueling, Archery), Spellcasting, Extra Attack, Action Surge.

Initiative: 4 DEX + 4 Proficiency + 5 Alert = +13

Cast Hunter`s Mark on enemy, that hasn`t taken a turn in combat yet and charge in him, while wielding rapier+shield. You will have 5 attacks with advantage - 2 for your action, 1 for Alacrity, 2 for Action Surge. Each attack deals 1d8(rapier)+1d6(Skirmish)+1d6(Hunter`s Mark) +4(DEX)+2(Dueling) and first attack deals extra 2d6 for Sneak Attack. Average damage is 94.5(5d8+12d6+30).

If your enemy is surprised you will crit at each attack. Average damage will be 159(10d8+24d6+30).

As alternative, you can use bow instead rapier - less damage, more chances to hit. Rogue`s Cunning Action helps to Disengage as bonus action and to land Skirmish damage at each turn even for melee character.


That doesn't sound all that different from a Battlemaster/Paladin/Assassin to be honest.
At the same level they'd be dishing out 4 attacks loaded with smites and battlemaster dice, and the right kind of paladin can also have hunters mark up as well. You could also have GWM if you want to forego the sneak attack damage for a ton of extra damage if you have advantage. The ranger contributes an extra hit, +1d6 damage per hit and prof to init. Probably a little more than he should but you're nova'ing with everything you have at this point, at level 10 no less.



From a purely mechanical standpoint, the Skirmishing feature is all but meant to work with TWFing or some other way of getting bonus attacks per turn. Combine with the Beastmaster subclass, and we're talking about someone who's effectively on par with a GWM without needing a feat or accuracy boosting features. Considering that many people consider that combination to be OP, that's something to note.

Alacrity is a concern for nova style attacks as well - its basically an Action Surge. Combining a non-rest dependant action surge, FS, and skirmisher puts the Ranger ahead of the Fighter in terms of combat ability, plus a host of non-combat effects.

I kind of liked the thematic split between the 3e inspired Beastmaster and the 4e derived Hunter with striker feature instead of animal.

Not sure on the point of Healing Salves - the Ranger does have healing spells (freed up more with Skirmish) and can access a healing kit.

Beastmaster gets damage increase at level 10, making the Precision-as-tier-power-bump redundant. Worse, at this point in the game, we're quickly approaching the point where accuracy isn't as important as raw damage per hit, or more strikes, making "reliability" a bit redundant. Not sure which Unearthed Article Precision comes from, though. Link?

Master of the Wild - meh. while it looks like a lot... its really just an effective minor attribute bump to hp and your weapon hand. Wis has little effect for most builds, so I don't consider that too be that great either. Strength and Constitution are huge with the Barbarian, which is why +4 to each is so huge. A middling bump for a class that's not as married to those stats is nice, but hardly that big of a deal.

Indeed. The current playtester is an archer so I havn't seen its effects with TWF

I could simply remove the action economy breakage and give prof to init. Makes it much easier to remember too, since i've seen it forgotten in about a third of combats we get into.

Thankyou. I wanted to split the casting into the third subclass entirely but I couldn't find a way to make that work and be happy with it.

They mimic the Paladin's Lay on hands, which you could make the same argument against.

Precision comes from the Underdark UA with the stalker subclass, called Stalkers Flurry. It allows you to make an extra attack if you miss, which i altered slightly. Since the ranger has so much already I didn't want to give out a straight damage buff, so its redundancy is welcome.

Excellent. I was pretty worried since it ends up giving you +1 AC, +1 Initiative, +1 Hit, +1 Damage, +1 to most skills, +1 to 4 saves, +20 HP and +1 Spell DC in total.
The hunter gets a bonus +1 to hit and damage on top of that too, which means a possible total of +20 to hit (Dex 22, Wis 22, Prof +6, Archery FS +2) and +12 to damage before factoring skirmish, spells and feats.

Thanks for the feedback guys!
I'm working on some changes, input is always welcome.

- Alacrity changed to only give + Prof to Init, no more extra action.
- Slightly nerfed all three subclasses, since the power of the class is in the core now
- Looking into ways to balance Beastmaster better
- Looking at equalizing active and passive abilities for playability sake