Is the Ethereal Empty?

[Milo v3]

Is there any actual solid terrain in the Ethereal Plane? I previously thought it was just an empty expanse with everyone drifting around in zero gravity, but it sounds weird if ethereal marauders and sahkil are just drifting around aimlessly... I can see ethereal spiders making drifting webstructures, but sahkil floating about constantly sounds like it'd lessen the horror significantly.

[avr]

The nearest part of the ethereal is an insubstantial copy of the material plane. Trees, ground and walls all exist I think but you can push through them if you want, or walk into the sky. The deeper reaches of the ethereal are just zero-G mists though.

[Eldan]

The deep ethereal is weird, that is one of its defining characteristics. But it is also the forge of creation. Everything the material is made off, is made there. Sure, most of it is empty mist and zero gravity, but those mists are made of pure elemental matter that contain the essence of all that ever was and ever can be. So, though rarely, one will encounter half-formed structures, the unfinished state of trees that will once grow, or towers that will one day be built.
There are also the demiplanes. They are worlds that will one day exist, in their larval form. Many ethereal beings prey on those, as well, like the Nathri, who are a barbarian horde who invades demiplanes and either eats or steals everything on them.

[AlanBruce]

The Ethereal Plane is mostly empty of structures and impediments. However, the plane has its own inhabitants. Some of these are other ethereal travelers, but the ghosts found here pose a particular peril to those who walk the fog.


Emphasis mine.

Being a realm normally attributed to ghosts, the entire plane would be insubstantial, but there should be some areas that have somehow solidified enough for non ghosts to live in- large ghostly forests that probably died in a fire in the Material and reformed in the Ethereal, maintaining a semblance of what they were in the world of the living.

These patches of floating lad amidst the aether would be rare, but not impossible to find. And on them, certain races might claim it as their home.

[MouthofSauron]

Yeah, the emptiness of the Ethereal is kind of one of it's points, but like the others have said I don't imagine it would be totally empty--as a GM you could have fun playing around with the "metaphysics" of the place. It's a reflection of the Material Plane, right? Say, take some inspiration from Warhammer and maybe significant "psychic" events get reflected in the Ethereal (not encouraging just making it the warp, of course). Say, battles would "echo" through the plane, as would say major catastrophes and emotionally charged phenomena generally. You could make it really very interesting.

[Milo v3]

Yeah, the emptiness of the Ethereal is kind of one of it's points, but like the others have said I don't imagine it would be totally empty--as a GM you could have fun playing around with the "metaphysics" of the place. It's a reflection of the Material Plane, right? Say, take some inspiration from Warhammer and maybe significant "psychic" events get reflected in the Ethereal (not encouraging just making it the warp, of course). Say, battles would "echo" through the plane, as would say major catastrophes and emotionally charged phenomena generally. You could make it really very interesting.

This isn't a question about it being boring because it's empty, simply wondering about whether there is terrain for the fact of creatures dwelling on the plane without flight creating logical issues.

[tropical_punch]

This isn't a question about it being boring because it's empty, simply wondering about whether there is terrain for the fact of creatures dwelling on the plane without flight creating logical issues.

Actually, everyone can hover around on the ethereal, regardless of their flight capabilities, so terrain is kind of irrelevant to whether or not it can sustain flightless natives.

[Milo v3]

Actually, everyone can hover around on the ethereal, regardless of their flight capabilities, so terrain is kind of irrelevant to whether or not it can sustain flightless natives.

How? It's zero gravity, "Individuals on a plane with this trait merely float in space, unless other resources are available to provide a direction for gravity’s pull.", the only way to move is through flight or throwing stuff away which makes movement rather finite in supply.

Ghosts can hover around the ethereal, but not ethereal marauders or phase spiders or sahkil.

[Psyren]

How? It's zero gravity, "Individuals on a plane with this trait merely float in space, unless other resources are available to provide a direction for gravity’s pull.", the only way to move is through flight or throwing stuff away which makes movement rather finite in supply.

Ghosts can hover around the ethereal, but not ethereal marauders or phase spiders or sahkil.

The gravity crosses over actually, you can just choose to ignore it. Manual of the Planes:


MOVEMENT AND COMBAT

One moves through the Ethereal Plane as one would move on the Material Plane. However, due to the misty nature of the protomatter of the plane itself, a traveler can move up and down just as easily as along solid surfaces. However, all movement is at half speed, both for travelers and for creatures native to the Ethereal Plane.

There is a definite “down” to the Ethereal Plane that corresponds to the gravity of the coexistent plane it is attached to. However, there is no danger of falling. Because the Ethereal Plane is coexistent with the Material
Plane, most travelers walk normally along the ground of the Material Plane. Creatures on the Ethereal Plane can move through solid objects on the Material Plane, but they cannot move through solid objects on the Ethereal Plane. Unlike the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane offers no quick way to move great distances.

[Eldan]

Yeah, the emptiness of the Ethereal is kind of one of it's points, but like the others have said I don't imagine it would be totally empty--as a GM you could have fun playing around with the "metaphysics" of the place. It's a reflection of the Material Plane, right? Say, take some inspiration from Warhammer and maybe significant "psychic" events get reflected in the Ethereal (not encouraging just making it the warp, of course). Say, battles would "echo" through the plane, as would say major catastrophes and emotionally charged phenomena generally. You could make it really very interesting.

The problem is that psychic stuff tends to go into the astral, at least by older fluff (for some reason ,they put dreams in the ethereal). There's all the weird dream creatures and living thought clouds and lovecraftian monstrosities and so on there in the old bestiaries. The ethereal is very much a place of creation and matter, not insubstantial things. And a bit of a creative spark, I guess.

[Milo v3]

The gravity crosses over actually, you can just choose to ignore it. Manual of the Planes:

So the ethereal plane basically only works in 3e, and then they ignored it for 3.5e (since the DMG doesn't acknowledge that at all and has the rule of "Individuals on a plane with this trait merely float in space, unless other resources are available to provide a direction for gravity’s pull.") meaning it may or may not be true (because specific over general vs. newer printings/revised edition disagreeing with old editions material) and then in PF you are 100% screwed.

[Psyren]

So the ethereal plane basically only works in 3e, and then they ignored it for 3.5e (since the DMG doesn't acknowledge that at all and has the rule of "Individuals on a plane with this trait merely float in space, unless other resources are available to provide a direction for gravity’s pull.") meaning it may or may not be true (because specific over general vs. newer printings/revised edition disagreeing with old editions material) and then in PF you are 100% screwed.

1) Actually, MotP was updated to 3.5 and none of that language was changed. So it applies to 3.5 as well.

2) By PF RAW, ethereal creatures/phase spiders/whatever else can move. If you're going to try to bring physics into it, you're going to have a bad time and only have yourself to blame.

[Milo v3]

1) Actually, MotP was updated to 3.5 and none of that language was changed. So it applies to 3.5 as well.

2) By PF RAW, ethereal creatures/phase spiders/whatever else can move. If you're going to try to bring physics into it, you're going to have a bad time and only have yourself to blame.

1) Very good to hear.
2) They can move on land, as they have landspeed... But otherwise, they're stuck drifting. Phase spiders can probably make webstructures overtime, and walk around on those as the webstructures themselves drift but I'm not seeing how the other ethereal creatures are getting around properly. This isn't a matter of physics, the rules say there is no gravity and that the no gravity trait functions in x way. I was hoping for some terrain the ethereal creatures could tie structures to and build on or something, not have all of them stupidly just drift aimlessly until they are lucky enough to be in a position that they can shift to the material without getting stuck in an object, die from being in outerspace, or die from fall damage. I'm honestly not sure why you said the second sentence when I wasn't bringing any science into it.

[Psyren]

This isn't a matter of physics, the rules say there is no gravity and that the no gravity trait functions in x way.

Nothing about the "No Gravity" trait says you can't move. What it says is this:


No Gravity: Individuals in a plane without gravity merely float in space, unless other mechanisms (such as magic or force of will) are available to provide a direction for gravity’s pull. An example of a plane with no gravity is the Astral Plane, where everyone gets around by simply imagining themselves moving in a particular direction.

You need a mechanism for gravity's pull, but that doesn't say you can't simply get around if you want to, and the Astral Plane example proves that.

Basically you're imagining problems that don't exist in the rules. You can move around on the Ethereal because the rules say ethereal creatures still have a move speed.

[Milo v3]

Nothing about the "No Gravity" trait says you can't move. What it says is this:



You need a mechanism for gravity's pull, but that doesn't say you can't simply get around if you want to, and the Astral Plane example proves that.

I'm looking at the PRD and my copy of the GMG and it says "Individuals on a plane with this trait merely float in space, unless other resources are available to provide a direction for gravity's pull." which has no implication that you can magically move without requiring a surface. Where did you get your quote from?


You can move around on the Ethereal because the rules say ethereal creatures still have a move speed.
No.... base land speeds don't suddenly turn into fly speeds without any rule giving even a hint of that being the result. Having a base land speed means you can walk/slither around on solid surfaces that can hold your weight, sometimes requiring acrobatics checks for balancing. Simply being a denizen of a certain plane doesn't change the rules, unless the rules say that being a denizen of that plane changes the rules (like how one of the books says that denizens of the elemental plane of fire have no difficultly on the sun).

[ExLibrisMortis]

There is a wall enhancement in the SBG, 'Ethereal Solid', which makes it impossible to infiltrate the enhanced area through the ethereal plane, because you're putting a wall of 'some solids [...] that have no reality on the Material Plane' in the way. It's not the greatest source of information on the planes, but there is precedent for having solids there.

[Psyren]

I'm looking at the PRD and my copy of the GMG and it says "Individuals on a plane with this trait merely float in space, unless other resources are available to provide a direction for gravity's pull." which has no implication that you can magically move without requiring a surface. Where did you get your quote from?

Manual of the Planes, and it's the exact same quote as yours, just with the Astral Plane example added. WotC left explanatory text like that out of the OGL/SRD, hence it not making its way into Pathfinder, but it's just that - explanatory. It's not saying anything that the rules don't already say.

And again, you need to focus on the bold part of that statement. You only need a resource for gravity's pull. Not merely to move around. Again, do you have a PF source that says Phase Spiders can't move while ethereal?



No.... base land speeds don't suddenly turn into fly speeds without any rule giving even a hint of that being the result. Having a base land speed means you can walk/slither around on solid surfaces that can hold your weight, sometimes requiring acrobatics checks for balancing. Simply being a denizen of a certain plane doesn't change the rules, unless the rules say that being a denizen of that plane changes the rules (like how one of the books says that denizens of the elemental plane of fire have no difficultly on the sun).

Except you're not "flying" - you're just walking somewhere with no gravity. What source are you getting the "solid surfaces that can hold your weight" rule from? Especially since no gravity means there is no weight, by definition?

[Milo v3]

Manual of the Planes, and it's the exact same quote as yours, just with the Astral Plane example added. WotC left explanatory text like that out of the OGL/SRD, hence it not making its way into Pathfinder, but it's just that - explanatory. It's not saying anything that the rules don't already say.

And again, you need to focus on the bold part of that statement. You only need a resource for gravity's pull. Not merely to move around.
That is ridiculous.... Manual of the planes is a 3.5e book not a PF book. Rules from 3.5e that aren't in PF, aren't in PF. They are separate games. If a section is omitted, it doesn't exist in regards to RAW. Simple as that. There was a section of the spellcraft rules that was omitted, and because of that omission the dev team decided that components didn't matter when it came to identifying spells. The games are innately compatible, but RAW from one game is not true in the other unless that other says it.


Again, do you have a PF source that says Phase Spiders can't move while ethereal?
That's not how rules discussions work, you have to prove that they can do the thing that breaks the default rules. Not me prove that they can't not break the rule.... There is no sign that they can Walk in the ethereal without a surface. That is how the rules are currently, and you have to prove otherwise.


Except you're not "flying" - you're just walking somewhere with no gravity. What source are you getting the "solid surfaces that can hold your weight" rule from? Especially since no gravity means there is no weight, by definition?
Ugh, this is painful. Please tell me how you are walking without a surface. Please. There is nothing in the PF rules that suggest it that you have discussed.

[Psyren]

Ugh, this is painful. Please tell me how you are walking without a surface. Please. There is nothing in the PF rules that suggest it that you have discussed.

"How" is irrelevant. The rules show I have a move speed, and no rule you have produced takes it away. The onus is on you to prove that my move speed stops working while ethereal. You can use the Astral Plane example if you must have an explanation why it works, but the fact is that it works, simple as that.

And yes, this is extremely painful :smallsigh:

[Milo v3]

"How" is irrelevant. The rules show I have a move speed, and no rule you have produced takes it away. The onus is on you to prove that my move speed stops working while ethereal. You can use the Astral Plane example if you must have an explanation why it works, but the fact is that it works, simple as that.

And yes, this is extremely painful :smallsigh:

The rules show the phase spider has a Land Speed (the bestiary introduction specifically calls it a land speed and races are listed with Base Land Speeds that are then modified by armour, abilities, and other external factors) and a Climb Speed. No "move speed". It requires land to move. Like a spider. To move in other ways requires a special section of the rules to say so, such as a swim speed, fly speed, airwalk effect, etc. Now, the ethereal has no land for it to move on, thus it has no method of using it's land speed or climb speed. In addition, it's lack of subjective gravity like the elemental plane of air means that the phase spider cannot simply will itself to fall in a certain direction as that planar trait has the rule of people on the plane "merely float in space" unless you have a way to give yourself gravity ... so "it merely floats in space" as it has no listed way of generating gravity.

You have still not provided any evidence that the ethereal plane has any additional rules in PF beyond those found in the GMG, and Phase Spider rules can be found in the bestiary. None suggest that the creature would have any means of walking on nothing, and even mentions that phase spiders create ether webs to live in.

[Acanous]

Alright, I'll have a go.

While gravity=0, your weight=0 as well. Any surface can therin hold your weight.

Mist or clouds can hold your weight on the material plane with an epic acrobatics check. On the ethereal where you have no weight, you don't need the acrobatics check, as you have no weight. They still act as a surface.

You can walk on the mist, but do so at half speed as per the rules for the ethereal plane. Creatures with a base landspeed are therefore not stuck.

[Milo v3]

Alright, I'll have a go.

While gravity=0, your weight=0 as well. Any surface can therin hold your weight.

Mist or clouds can hold your weight on the material plane with an epic acrobatics check. On the ethereal where you have no weight, you don't need the acrobatics check, as you have no weight. They still act as a surface.

You can walk on the mist, but do so at half speed as per the rules for the ethereal plane. Creatures with a base landspeed are therefore not stuck.

An amusing interpretation, I always was disappointed PF never took on the epic balance check DC's thing. :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

It requires land to move. Like a spider.

Where is the rule that states this? Please provide a page citation. There is no land on the ethereal plane and neither Phase Spiders nor Xills can fly, so this is obviously false.


In addition, it's lack of subjective gravity like the elemental plane of air means that the phase spider cannot simply will itself to fall in a certain direction as that planar trait has the rule of people on the plane "merely float in space" unless you have a way to give yourself gravity ... so "it merely floats in space" as it has no listed way of generating gravity.

And where is the rule that states "floating in space" means you are stuck in one place?



You have still not provided any evidence that the ethereal plane has any additional rules in PF beyond those found in the GMG, and Phase Spider rules can be found in the bestiary. None suggest that the creature would have any means of walking on nothing, and even mentions that phase spiders create ether webs to live in.

And Xills? Do they create webs to walk on too? How about Moon Dogs? Phantoms? Sahkils? Webs for all?

[Dusk Raven]

I just want to say that I had no idea the Ethereal Plane had no gravity. Or lacked terrain of any sort. Maybe that's a good thing.


Manual of the Planes, and it's the exact same quote as yours, just with the Astral Plane example added. WotC left explanatory text like that out of the OGL/SRD, hence it not making its way into Pathfinder, but it's just that - explanatory. It's not saying anything that the rules don't already say.

And again, you need to focus on the bold part of that statement. You only need a resource for gravity's pull. Not merely to move around. Again, do you have a PF source that says Phase Spiders can't move while ethereal?

...

Except you're not "flying" - you're just walking somewhere with no gravity. What source are you getting the "solid surfaces that can hold your weight" rule from? Especially since no gravity means there is no weight, by definition?

Thing is? All creatures have movement modes along with movement speeds. A human can't move the same speed through water or up a cliff - in fact, without the relevant Swim or Climb skills, they can't move in those circumstances at all. And when put in a situation with no gravity, they don't gain modes of movement spontaneously.

Also, I read somewhere in these posts that you said that you choose which direction is "down" in the Ethereal Plane. But that isn't true. The Astral Plane does that, yes, but in that case, its gravity mode is specified as "subjective directional gravity" which is a different thing. "No gravity" means that there is no down and never will be.


Alright, I'll have a go.

While gravity=0, your weight=0 as well. Any surface can therin hold your weight.

Mist or clouds can hold your weight on the material plane with an epic acrobatics check. On the ethereal where you have no weight, you don't need the acrobatics check, as you have no weight. They still act as a surface.

You can walk on the mist, but do so at half speed as per the rules for the ethereal plane. Creatures with a base landspeed are therefore not stuck.

I find this the most interesting explanation... or at least I did before I read it more throroughly. Two problems: One is that walking, if you're not actively anchored to something like with spiders and some lizards, requires some force to be pushing you against whatever you're walking on, which is typically gravity. Otherwise, you'll just push off the surface you're trying to walk on. I once heard walking described as "controlled falling." I think that's very accurate.

What I initially interpreted your statement as was that since you have no weight, you could basically psuedo-swim. Unfortunately there would still be problems with that because there is a difference between weight and mass, and since weight is dependent on mass and not the other way around, you'd still be stuck grasping at "air" the same way you would be on the Material Plane. Taking away mass too would just present its own host of problems...


However, looking through the PHB, I've found something that can settle this whole issue. "An ethereal creature is invisible, insubstantial, and capable of moving in any direction, even up or down, albeit at half normal speed." So, by nature of being on the Ethereal Plane, you can move if you so please. Where is this vital piece of info found? The description for Ethereal Jaunt... and not, I dunno, in the description in the DMG for the Ethereal Plane. Ugh.

So basically, anything on the Ethereal Plane can move. Somehow. I assume it's just through force of will. This means that I no longer question the sanity of the designer(s) of the Ethereal Plane and D&D's planar dynamics in general. Now I merely question the sanity of the ones responsible for formatting the books...

[Psyren]

Thing is? All creatures have movement modes along with movement speeds. A human can't move the same speed through water or up a cliff - in fact, without the relevant Swim or Climb skills, they can't move in those circumstances at all. And when put in a situation with no gravity, they don't gain modes of movement spontaneously.

You don't need to "gain modes of movement." If you have a speed, you can move.

You want an explicit rule saying so? Fine. CRB 279:


An ethereal creature is invisible, insubstantial, and capable of moving in any direction, even up or down, albeit at half normal speed. As an insubstantial creature, you can move through solid objects, including living creatures.

You guys are imagining Ethereal as an untethered astronaut in a frictionless environment helplessly wiggling his arms and legs while he remains stationary. It doesn't work that way. How does it work? Fluff it however you like, but by RAW you can move (in any direction, no less.)


Also, I read somewhere in these posts that you said that you choose which direction is "down" in the Ethereal Plane.

I said no such thing.

[Dusk Raven]

You don't need to "gain modes of movement." If you have a speed, you can move.

You want an explicit rule saying so? Fine. CRB 279:



You guys are imagining Ethereal as an untethered astronaut in a frictionless environment helplessly wiggling his arms and legs while he remains stationary. It doesn't work that way. How does it work? Fluff it however you like, but by RAW you can move (in any direction, no less.

It would have helped tremendously if you had actually cited that at any point. As I've demonstrated at the end of my previous post, that info is in existence, it just isn't anywhere obvious. Instead, you assumed we knew that when it was obviously not the case.


I said no such thing.

Not directly, and I do apologize for that. But you did cite the following:


No Gravity: Individuals in a plane without gravity merely float in space, unless other mechanisms (such as magic or force of will) are available to provide a direction for gravity’s pull. An example of a plane with no gravity is the Astral Plane, where everyone gets around by simply imagining themselves moving in a particular direction.

Which is misleading because that information is obsolete. The Astra Plane, as I mentioned, has subjective directional gravity, as stated in the DMG, not no gravity at all. The Ethereal Plane has no gravity, period, but you can apparently move through it if you want, it's just not by means of gravity.

[Psyren]

It would have helped tremendously if you had actually cited that at any point.

I didn't think I had to go digging for "creatures can move" but apparently I did.


Not directly, and I do apologize for that. But you did cite the following:

Which is misleading because that information is obsolete. The Astra Plane, as I mentioned, has subjective directional gravity, as stated in the DMG, not no gravity at all. The Ethereal Plane has no gravity, period, but you can apparently move through it if you want, it's just not by means of gravity.

The only way you "move by means of gravity" is by falling. Why would you assume gravity is needed for all movement?

[Slithery D]

The only way you "move by means of gravity" is by falling. Why would you assume gravity is needed for all movement?

Walking and flying are controlled falling.

But the real point is that Pathfinder's general planar rules are awful and woefully underdeveloped.

[Psyren]

I would love a MotP-style supplement for Pathfinder, sure - especially factoring in all the emotion-based stuff in the Ethereal as of Occult Adventures. But we have everything we need to answer this thread's query at least.

[Baroknik]

Assuming there is air on the ethereal plane (which if there is not offers a whole second host of issues), then there is also the possibility of swimming through the air. It would be slow going, but really any kind of momentum-conservation means of traversing should work. Even directed breathing could propel you in a direction, though you may get sick from spinning as you turn to keep from just moving back and forth!

[Necroticplague]

Assuming there is air on the ethereal plane (which if there is not offers a whole second host of issues), then there is also the possibility of swimming through the air. It would be slow going, but really any kind of momentum-conservation means of traversing should work. Even directed breathing could propel you in a direction, though you may get sick from spinning as you turn to keep from just moving back and forth!

This is what I was thinking. Ethereal has air, so you can swim in it. Though honestly, for intelligent creatures, I just assumed they built structures themselves that they often moved around. There isn't much material, but there is some, and its pretty reasonable intelligent races living there can use it.

[Dusk Raven]

I didn't think I had to go digging for "creatures can move" but apparently I did.

No, you have to dig for "creatures that can move can move in the Ethereal Plane by force of will." Because nowhere does it say that in the description of the Ethereal Plane. Just because you have a 30 foot base speed does not mean you can move 30 feet in any direction at any time, far from it. In fact, you have a 30 foot speed when walking, and at no other time. There's rules for everything else. The rules for the Ethereal Plane seem to be, "You gain an effective Fly speed equal to one half your base land speed." And I only found that by accident.



The only way you "move by means of gravity" is by falling. Why would you assume gravity is needed for all movement?

I don't. Climbing and some methods of flying don't. Walking, however, does. And that's all humans can do without using skills.


This is what I was thinking. Ethereal has air, so you can swim in it. Though honestly, for intelligent creatures, I just assumed they built structures themselves that they often moved around. There isn't much material, but there is some, and its pretty reasonable intelligent races living there can use it.

Theoretically that's possible, but I've never heard of anyone doing it IRL, so I can only assume it would be agonizingly slow and a constant struggle, and so would only be used as a last resort. Even water-based swimming can be pretty slow compared to walking, and water has much more traction.

[Psyren]

No, you have to dig for "creatures that can move can move in the Ethereal Plane by force of will." Because nowhere does it say that in the description of the Ethereal Plane. Just because you have a 30 foot base speed does not mean you can move 30 feet in any direction at any time, far from it. In fact, you have a 30 foot speed when walking, and at no other time. There's rules for everything else. The rules for the Ethereal Plane seem to be, "You gain an effective Fly speed equal to one half your base land speed." And I only found that by accident.

Well, I provided the rules quote, so moot point is moot.

And, no, you're not "flying" - nothing in the rules says you are. There is simply no gravity. You never have to make fly checks for instance, and things that affect flying creatures differently won't work that way on you. You get no fly speed, effective or otherwise.



I don't. Climbing and some methods of flying don't. Walking, however, does. And that's all humans can do without using skills.

Again, that's physics, not game rules. Pushing against a firm surface is how we walk, but it is not required to move around the Astral or Ethereal planes; you simply move where you want to move. If that isn't credible enough, you're of course welcome to houserule it, but RAW is clear.

[Milo v3]

You don't need to "gain modes of movement." If you have a speed, you can move.

You want an explicit rule saying so? Fine. CRB 279:
FINALLY. Thank you. This is what I was asking for over and over when I was asking for how. I'm not sure why you didn't post it earlier, since before now what you suggested would imply that anyone with a land speed can walk on the air whenever they want.


You guys are imagining Ethereal as an untethered astronaut in a frictionless environment helplessly wiggling his arms and legs while he remains stationary.
From the Ethereal Plane rules in the GMG, that IS what happens. But, now that you quoted that bit from Ethereal Jaunt, it appears that the rules in the GMG are only partially true and are missing a major rule.


Again, that's physics, not game rules. Pushing against a firm surface is how we walk, but it is not required to move around the Astral or Ethereal planes; you simply move where you want to move.
Why do you keep bringing it to science. We are talking about game rules, you can't do something like walk on air without a rule saying you can. You recently provide the rule that says you can walk on air on the ethereal plane, but that does not apply to any other zero gravity planes (though I can't think of any others that exist). The astral plane is irrelevant because it is not a zero gravity environment so I'm not sure why you were bringing it up.

[Necroticplague]

Theoretically that's possible, but I've never heard of anyone doing it IRL, so I can only assume it would be agonizingly slow and a constant struggle, and so would only be used as a last resort. Even water-based swimming can be pretty slow compared to walking, and water has much more traction.

In order to even try doing this, you need a conflux of "zero gravity", "not in a vacuum" and "not in a very enclosed space". I know of no such situation in which all three have occurred at once for any human. Spaceships are very enclosed, open space is a vacuum (or at least close enough to one), and any place on earth has gravity. So it's no surprise nobodies ever tried this.

[Psyren]

I'm not sure why you didn't post it earlier

Because I'm not a walking encyclopedia and didn't think I would need to hunt for justification on something so obvious to begin with.



Why do you keep bringing it to science. We are talking about game rules, you can't do something like walk on air without a rule saying you can.

If you're in a zero gravity plane, what exactly is stopping you?

[Milo v3]

If you're in a zero gravity plane, what exactly is stopping you?
Both the zero gravity rules And how zero gravity works in real life don't allow you to consciously move without a surface (or throwing something). Without that specific section of Ethereal Jaunt, you just drift in space. Because that's what the rules say. But thankfully, there is that rule..... It's just a giant victim of "Rules all over the place and not where they should be".....

[Dusk Raven]

And, no, you're not "flying" - nothing in the rules says you are. There is simply no gravity. You never have to make fly checks for instance, and things that affect flying creatures differently won't work that way on you. You get no fly speed, effective or otherwise.

At this point I do have to apologize. I was about to ask, honestly, what the difference was between... however you move in the Ethereal Plane, and flying with perfect maneuverability, since I assumed such creatures didn't need to make Fly checks. However, I was basing that assumption off of incorporeal creatures, which don't seem like they'd be affected by the sort of stuff that requires Fly checks, and I forgot that flies have perfect manueverability, because maneuverability isn't based on actual agility, it's just based on what it looks like on a 5x5 foot square grid. And I haven't yet needed to look up how flight works in Pathfinder, so I just assumed it worked like it did in 3.5e.

So yes, it's not actually flying, it just looks like it from an outside perspective, which is more what I was going for.


Again, that's physics, not game rules. Pushing against a firm surface is how we walk, but it is not required to move around the Astral or Ethereal planes; you simply move where you want to move. If that isn't credible enough, you're of course welcome to houserule it, but RAW is clear.

This isn't about actual physics versus RAW. At least not for me. This is about how you're supposed to get around in the Ethereal Plane, and whether the books say anything about that. Turns out they do, it's just obscure, so all I could do was look at the DMG, find absolutely nothing on the subject, and wonder where exactly you were getting the notion that you can just go where you want in zero-gravity areas.


FINALLY. Thank you. This is what I was asking for over and over when I was asking for how. I'm not sure why you didn't post it earlier, since before now what you suggested would imply that anyone with a land speed can walk on the air whenever they want.

But... but... I brought it up... .___.

But yes. The rules are fairly conclusive, they're just obscure. I mean, I only found them because I was looking up Ethereal Jaunt, and I was only looking up that because I was curious about Phase Spiders. Turns out they're actually Material Plane creatures who have Ethereal Jaunt as an SLA, so they use that to hunt.

[Psyren]

Both the zero gravity rules And how zero gravity works in real life don't allow you to consciously move without a surface (or throwing something).

Again, the zero gravity rules don't say anything at all about needing a "surface", and 'real life' is not relevant to this discussion.

Sorry if I got testy earlier.

[Milo v3]

But... but... I brought it up... .___.
Sorry, skimmed that because of you discussion 3.5e content and missed that.

[Milo v3]

Again, the zero gravity rules don't say anything at all about needing a "surface", and 'real life' is not relevant to this discussion.
Zero gravity rules say you are stuck merely floating in space, so... without a surface to hold onto you will be merely floating in space, though you wouldn't be able to walk on that surface you'd have to climb I guess. And real life is relevant to the discussion to a degree, as it shows context behind the RAW. Not rulebinding or anything at all, but it helps so that what I said is not only RAW (which was from the Zero Gravity Trait rules), but also RAI. Just covering my bases, so to speak. As sometimes when you take a stance on RAW people suggest "That's obviously not how it works, as your interpretation is opposite to the RAI".


Sorry if I got testy earlier.
That's fine, round and round discussions tend to do that.

[Dusk Raven]

Again, the zero gravity rules don't say anything at all about needing a "surface", and 'real life' is not relevant to this discussion.

Sorry if I got testy earlier.

Well, when the rules say nothing about how you're supposed to move about, all you really have to go on is real life, because by default rational people will base their assumptions on what they know, and what makes sense. Besides, "because I want to" is not something that passes muster with DMs, in my experience.

It doesn't help that the description for zero gravity in the DMG implies that that's exactly how you're supposed to get about. It's only in the Ethereal Jaunt description where it actually gets spelled out in terms of hard rules.

[Psyren]

Zero gravity rules say you are stuck merely floating in space, so...

You keep adding things, that's what I don't understand. "Stuck" is never mentioned anywhere in the rules either.


Well, when the rules say nothing about how you're supposed to move about, all you really have to go on is real life, because by default rational people will base their assumptions on what they know, and what makes sense.

1) "What makes sense" is exactly the approach I'm taking. Imagining that Xills and Moon Dogs are flailing their limbs around hoping for passersby or walking around on the material all the time because they can't move at home is to me the opposite of sense.

2) "Real life" does not contain an Ethereal Plane, at least not as far as we know. "It works because it works" is a valid answer when we're talking about things for which we have no frame of reference.

[Milo v3]

You keep adding things, that's what I don't understand. "Stuck" is never mentioned anywhere in the rules either."Individuals on a plane with this trait merely float in space" sounds pretty stuck to me. You could drift somewhere, but there is no suggestion that you have any agency in the matter.


1) "What makes sense" is exactly the approach I'm taking. Imagining that Xills and Moon Dogs are flailing their limbs around hoping for passersby or walking around on the material all the time because they can't move at home is to me the opposite of sense.
Which is why I was looking for the rule that made that Not happen. :smallconfused:


2) "Real life" does not contain an Ethereal Plane, at least not as far as we know. "It works because it works" is a valid answer when we're talking about things for which we have no frame of reference.
.... we do have zero gravity environments that are giant expanses full of nothing, and the zero gravity environment with no surfaces to travel upon was the whole issue with the ethereal plane so... we have a really really good example of how it would work just above our heads.

[Psyren]

"Individuals on a plane with this trait merely float in space" sounds pretty stuck to me. You could drift somewhere, but there is no suggestion that you have any agency in the matter.

There is no suggestion that you don't either, and absent that, your speed entry remains.



Which is why I was looking for the rule that made that Not happen. :smallconfused:

But you're operating from the premise that it does, rather than the more sensible premise that Xills can move on their native plane and there is nothing stopping it.



.... we do have zero gravity environments that are giant expanses full of nothing, and the zero gravity environment with no surfaces to travel upon was the whole issue with the ethereal plane so... we have a really really good example of how it would work just above our heads.

And when NASA finds space spiders and dogs up there hunting prey with no means of propulsion I will concede the point, but until then your model is clearly flawed.

[Milo v3]

There is no suggestion that you don't either, and absent that, your speed entry remains.
Saying "merely float in space" suggests they merely float in space. Thats what they do. I honestly do know how you are arguing with the direct quote.... You still haven't shown as single piece of text that suggests that you can use move-speed to walk on air. So, we go with logic and assume it works how it does in real life.... People can't walk on air, unless the game says they can.


But you're operating from the premise that it does, rather than the more sensible premise that Xills can move on their native plane and there is nothing stopping it.
The only reason they can is because the ethereal jaunt spell details how ethereal creatures move. Otherwise they would follow the no gravity planar trait rules.


And when NASA finds space spiders and dogs up there hunting prey with no means of propulsion I will concede the point, but until then your model is clearly flawed.
You don't need space spiders or space dogs, because no where in their creature entries does it list that they have a special movement for when they are on the ethereal plane. You can swap them out with any other form of life that possesses the same locomotion.... In this instance, Phase Spiders and Spiders are equivelent. Xills and humans are equivalent in this instance. So, xills would move around on a zero gravity environment, in the same way that humans do in a zero gravity environment. Which is "merely float in space", which is the same as the zero gravity rules say.

Also I'm curious, what dog lives on the ethereal? I'm not familiar with that monster.

[Psyren]

Saying "merely float in space" suggests they merely float in space. Thats what they do. I honestly do know how you are arguing with the direct quote.... You still haven't shown as single piece of text that suggests that you can use move-speed to walk on air. So, we go with logic and assume it works how it does in real life.... People can't walk on air, unless the game says they can.

So if I'm floating in space and I move, have I stopped floating in space? Why do you think those are mutually exclusive?



The only reason they can is because the ethereal jaunt spell details how ethereal creatures move. Otherwise they would follow the no gravity planar trait rules.

Rules which say nothing about not being able to move.



You don't need space spiders or space dogs, because no where in their creature entries does it list that they have a special movement for when they are on the ethereal plane. You can swap them out with any other form of life that possesses the same locomotion.... In this instance, Phase Spiders and Spiders are equivelent. Xills and humans are equivalent in this instance. So, xills would move around on a zero gravity environment, in the same way that humans do in a zero gravity environment. Which is "merely float in space", which is the same as the zero gravity rules say.

Also I'm curious, what dog lives on the ethereal? I'm not familiar with that monster.

Right, they "float in space" and can get from point A to point B, floating the whole way. Your interpretation, that they can only flail around in one spot, makes no sense.

Moon Dog is in Bestiary 5, they also live on the Ethereal. I was specifically picking creatures with no fly speed that live on the Ethereal to show that they can get around too, as the designers intended.

[Milo v3]

So if I'm floating in space and I move, have I stopped floating in space? Why do you think those are mutually exclusive?

Rules which say nothing about not being able to move.

Right, they "float in space" and can get from point A to point B, floating the whole way. Your interpretation, that they can only flail around in one spot, makes no sense.
How are you getting the ability to move without any form of movement? There is no suggestion or implication anywhere in the rules that your landspeed provides any form of movement in an environment without land to travel across.

It makes perfect sense. If you only have x method of moving, and you cannot use it in y environment, then you cannot use x movement in environment y.... I mean, you cannot walk on air with your base land speed. You are suggesting that you can, even on the material plane. Because nothing in the zero gravity trait suggests that you get any change to your movement types.


Moon Dog is in Bestiary 5, they also live on the Ethereal. I was specifically picking creatures with no fly speed that live on the Ethereal to show that they can get around too, as the designers intended.
Those live on Nirvana. They sometimes hunt on the ethereal, but if you go along those lines then they live on the material plane. And yes, they can get around, because of the line in ethereal jaunt.

[Psyren]

How are you getting the ability to move without any form of movement? There is no suggestion or implication anywhere in the rules that your landspeed provides any form of movement in an environment without land to travel across.

What is the rules definition of "land?" If it's just "something that can support your weight," the ethereal is full of that, because you don't have one while you're there.



It makes perfect sense. If you only have x method of moving, and you cannot use it in y environment, then you cannot use x movement in environment y.... I mean, you cannot walk on air with your base land speed. You are suggesting that you can, even on the material plane. Because nothing in the zero gravity trait suggests that you get any change to your movement types.

But there are ethereal monsters that only have land speed. This is all the indication I need to prove that land speed is sufficient to move while there. If it weren't, they would have other movement modes in their statblock; QED.


Those live on Nirvana. They sometimes hunt on the ethereal, but if you go along those lines then they live on the material plane. And yes, they can get around, because of the line in ethereal jaunt.

And if that line wasn't there, their statblock would be no different. They could still move.

[Milo v3]

What is the rules definition of "land?" If it's just "something that can support your weight," the ethereal is full of that, because you don't have one while you're there.
You're being purposefully ridiculous. Land is land. If there isn't land you cannot walk unless the game says you can. The ethereal plane says you can, so you can.


But there are ethereal monsters that only have land speed. This is all the indication I need to prove that land speed is sufficient to move while there. If it weren't, they would have other movement modes in their statblock; QED.

That's stupid. Having a land speed only tells you that is has a land speed, Nothing else. The rule in ethereal jaunt lets ethereal creatures to use that land speed on the ethereal plane. That's the indication needed to PROVE that land speed is sufficient to move while there. The proof was what I was after.


And if that line wasn't there, their statblock would be no different. They could still move.
No they can't. There is no indication that they would be able to walk on the ethereal plane at all, since you cannot walk on air. Are you suggesting that humans can walk on air? Are you suggesting that dogs can walk on air? Are you suggesting that spiders can walk on the air? Because without that line, there is no reason your argument wouldn't allow those creatures to walk on nothing on the material plane.

[Psyren]

You're being purposefully ridiculous. Land is land. If there isn't land you cannot walk unless the game says you can. The ethereal plane says you can, so you can.

I'm not though, the definition is important. Is the deck of a ship "land?" It's not the ground, so can you not walk while you're on a ship? How about a rooftop, is that "land?" Does your land speed work in these places?

It seems to me that you're the one being ridiculous, expecting that every location and plane of existence should have identical terrain.



That's stupid. Having a land speed only tells you that is has a land speed, Nothing else. The rule in ethereal jaunt lets ethereal creatures to use that land speed on the ethereal plane. That's the indication needed to PROVE that land speed is sufficient to move while there. The proof was what I was after.

Indeed, I did prove this works. But even if that line wasn't there, common sense should tell you Xills aren't flailing in place.


No they can't. There is no indication that they would be able to walk on the ethereal plane at all, since you cannot walk on air. Are you suggesting that humans can walk on air? Are you suggesting that dogs can walk on air? Are you suggesting that spiders can walk on the air? Because without that line, there is no reason your argument wouldn't allow those creatures to walk on nothing on the material plane.

They can't walk on air on this plane. The Ethereal Plane is not the Material and works differently. That's rather the whole point of your thread, at least I thought.

[Milo v3]

I'm not though, the definition is important. Is the deck of a ship "land?" It's not the ground, so can you not walk while you're on a ship? How about a rooftop, is that "land?" Does your land speed work in these places?

It seems to me that you're the one being ridiculous, expecting that every location and plane of existence should have identical terrain.
Land is synonymous with solid ground. :smallsigh:

I'm not expecting that every location and plane of existence should have identical terrain... I never stated anything that would suggest that. It's simply that characters cannot walk on air unless the game says so. It's not complex. It's not some strange weird rule. It's ridiculously obvious.


Indeed, I did prove this works. But even if that line wasn't there, common sense should tell you Xills aren't flailing in place.
RAW doesn't always work the way the developers intend. If that line wasn't their then No, they'd be merely floating in space, and without any form of movement that applies in zero gravity, they would be stuck only able to flail. That was the issue, that the apparent rules didn't match what common sense dictates Should be the rules. The Xills should have a way to walk around on the ethereal, and I was trying to find How they do so despite the ethereal planes statistics in the DMG and GMG. Common sense says "they should be able to do x", but without that line in ethereal jaunt "they don't do x", but until you find that section that allows for x to happen, it is Not Proven just from "this is how I expected it to work despite the rules saying the opposite". That's not rules. That's not how rules discussions work.


They can't walk on air on this plane. The Ethereal Plane is not the Material and works differently. That's rather the whole point of your thread, at least I thought.
The difference is a lack of gravity. You cannot walk on air on the material plane in zero gravity. You were suggesting that if it's a zero gravity plane, you suddenly gain the ability to walk on air despite all the rules suggesting the opposite. Creatures cannot simply magically decide to walk in a zero gravity environment, you just float, you climb along the limited surfaces that exist, and you jump from those limited surfaces to choose a direction, but without any solid things (and the ethereal is ridiculously empty), you'd have no method of movement without some additional form of movement. You can walk on air on the ethereal, because the rules in the PHB/CRB say you can, not because it's a zero gravity plane or because it matches up with the image in your head.

[Telok]

Well if he's following the advice in his sig then he may be adjusting the view in his head to match some rules as written.

My wonder is at that "half normal speed" bit. It's not uncommon for critters to have more than one movement type. In fact it's not unknown for critters to have non-walking speeds that are faster than the walking speeds. I'm sure someone can come up with some elemental earth type critter with a high burrow speed than a land speed. Of course there are also dragons that are equally at home on land, in the air, and swimming. Which speed is their "normal" when it's dependent on the terrain at hand?

[Milo v3]

Well if he's following the advice in his sig then he may be adjusting the view in his head to match some rules as written.

My wonder is at that "half normal speed" bit. It's not uncommon for critters to have more than one movement type. In fact it's not unknown for critters to have non-walking speeds that are faster than the walking speeds. I'm sure someone can come up with some elemental earth type critter with a high burrow speed than a land speed. Of course there are also dragons that are equally at home on land, in the air, and swimming. Which speed is their "normal" when it's dependent on the terrain at hand?

I'd assume normal is the highest, like a bird would use it's fly speed and a mermaid would use it's swim speed, despite both having base land speeds. Basically whichever the creature just uses most. Might be difficult to tell for amphibians though.

[Psyren]

Well if he's following the advice in his sig then he may be adjusting the view in his head to match some rules as written.

That is in fact exactly why I put that in my sig. When there's a perfectly reasonable explanation that works, starting from the incorrect one that doesn't just so you can complain that it doesn't is just silly.


Land is synonymous with solid ground. :smallsigh:

Case in point. So land speed doesn't work on the deck of a ship? A rooftop? A tightrope? Those aren't "solid ground," so are you unable to move without flying in these places?

Land is just something that can support you. Which, when you're ethereal, is anything at all, including the air. So yes, ethereal creatures with a land speed can logically get around, not illogically flail in place. That they spelled it out for us is nice of them, but unnecessary.

[Milo v3]

Case in point. So land speed doesn't work on the deck of a ship? A rooftop? A tightrope? Those aren't "solid ground," so are you unable to move without flying in these places?
.... All of those are solid ground. :smallconfused:


Land is just something that can support you. Which, when you're ethereal, is anything at all, including the air. So yes, ethereal creatures with a land speed can logically get around, not illogically flail in place. That they spelled it out for us is nice of them, but unnecessary.
No... There is nothing suggesting that no gravity = "You don't need anything to support you to walk". There Is No Text That Suggests It. No gravity strangely enough, according to the rules, seems to function the exact same way it does in real life. Ethereal has a special section of text in the pbp that says you can move around on it. But any other plane without gravity is stuck using the zero gravity rules, which do not suggest at all that the air spontaneously starts getting treated as a solid surface. Just because you are not falling doesn't mean that Everything is solid ground. Just because you are not falling, doesn't mean you are standing. Just because there is no gravity doesn't mean you get superpowers, it means there is no gravity.... The rule is that you float in space. It doesn't say "You can magically float around as if your land speed was a fly speed". You float in space. That's the default until you find a way to get around it (like supernatural flight or a special rule of the plane). Deal with it.

[Psyren]

.... All of those are solid ground. :smallconfused:

If your definition is that loose, then whatever is in the ethereal plane works for me.


Deal with it.

Ah, there we go. We're done here.

[zergling.exe]

.... All of those are solid ground. :smallconfused:

Clouds can be walked across with a DC 80(?) balance check. Does that count as solid ground? Because the mist in the ethereal should be about that solid, and with no gravity should have a lower DC to balance on.

[Milo v3]

If your definition is that loose, then whatever is in the ethereal plane works for me.
It's stuff you can stand on. You cannot stand in an empty environment without something to let you stand.


Ah, there we go. We're done here.
I only said that because you still are just making up rules. You haven't shown any arguments at all that would point to characters being able to use land speeds in environments without anything to walk on. You've just been saying "they can because they can" over and over with no evidence. The discussion was already done.


Clouds can be walked across with a DC 80(?) balance check. Does that count as solid ground? Because the mist in the ethereal should be about that solid, and with no gravity should have a lower DC to balance on.
That's already been mentioned earlier in the thread, though doesn't apply to pathfinder, also I think the DC would be the same or at least still 40-60 considering you're trying to balance on very very very very very very very very tiny things.

[Aegis013]

It's stuff you can stand on. You cannot stand in an empty environment without something to let you stand.


I only said that because you still are just making up rules. You haven't shown any arguments at all that would point to characters being able to use land speeds in environments without anything to walk on. You've just been saying "they can because they can" over and over with no evidence. The discussion was already done.

That's not quite true. Psyren's point (and frankly I agree with it) was that your premise was flawed to begin with. Personally, I think it came from your inference about the zero gravity rules when it came to the word "merely" which doesn't necessarily imply that creatures become unable to move. That is, admittedly, not an unreasonable reading, until you consider the ramifications: creatures native to a plane with no ability to function in their home environment.

Perhaps a more appropriate word would have been "simply" rather than "merely."

[Milo v3]

That's not quite true. Psyren's point (and frankly I agree with it) was that your premise was flawed to begin with. Personally, I think it came from your inference about the zero gravity rules when it came to the word "merely" which doesn't necessarily imply that creatures become unable to move. That is, admittedly, not an unreasonable reading, until you consider the ramifications: creatures native to a plane with no ability to function in their home environment.
It doesn't suggest that they gain a new mode of movement or that the land speed is sufficient to travel without requiring the surface it requires in every other instance, so not being able to move when you have no a method of movement is the only real option. The ramifications are why I made this thread, wondering if there was something to stop the RAW from conflicting with the obvious intentions of the ethereal plane, and thankfully there is in the Ethereal Jaunt spell, a victim of having rules all over the place that repeatedly occurs in 3.5e and PF.

I'm not really sure how the premise is flawed beyond being ignorant of the material in manual of planes and ethereal jaunt. The premise was "creatures Should be able to walk around on the ethereal plane, but I cannot see how they do so."

[Aegis013]

I'll try my best to explain what I think is the flaw in your prrmise. Of course, this is merely my opinion, thus, you may feel free to discount it without concern for my feelings.

Your premise is that movement in PF and 3.5 requires all of the same conditions as real life in every circumstance (magic being a sufficient explanation for itself but not for planes, an inherently similarly fantastical concept). This would be sensible from a 100% simulationist view point, but PF and 3.5 are both not quite that style of game.

A surface being required to use your land speed in every circumstance ever doesn't seem to be called out in the movement rules, or anywhere else I can find, so I think that assumption is part of the issue with your premise. Since we have falling rules for the prime material, we know a character without specific method of overcoming gravity/falling rules can't do so, but turning off gravity would only affect falling rules, not movement rules, unless otherwise called out by the rules themselves. This is a place where a 100% simulationist mindset would say movement should also be affected, but since the game stops making sense at that point, it makes more sense to approach this interaction in a more gamey/narrativist mindset. Which would say, if gravity is off, only gravity/falling is impacted, thus this doesn't affect friction/traction/movement ability unless specifically called out to do so. If this would be unpalatable due to desire for a stronger simulationist leaning, a house rule would be justifiable.

Now, I know by your reading, you inferred that the text suggested such a thing, but merely floating in space can reasonably be interpreted as simply floating through space, using the creature's most prominent movement mode to determine its speed of travelling through space. From a narrativist perspective, this makes a lot more sense, thus is probably the more reasonable base assumption on which to construct a premise.

[Milo v3]

I'll try my best to explain what I think is the flaw in your prrmise. Of course, this is merely my opinion, thus, you may feel free to discount it without concern for my feelings.

Your premise is that movement in PF and 3.5 requires all of the same conditions as real life in every circumstance (magic being a sufficient explanation for itself but not for planes, an inherently similarly fantastical concept). This would be sensible from a 100% simulationist view point, but PF and 3.5 are both not quite that style of game.

A surface being required to use your land speed in every circumstance ever doesn't seem to be called out in the movement rules, or anywhere else I can find, so I think that assumption is part of the issue with your premise. Since we have falling rules for the prime material, we know a character without specific method of overcoming gravity/falling rules can't do so, but turning off gravity would only affect falling rules, not movement rules, unless otherwise called out by the rules themselves. This is a place where a 100% simulationist mindset would say movement should also be affected, but since the game stops making sense at that point, it makes more sense to approach this interaction in a more gamey/narrativist mindset. Which would say, if gravity is off, only gravity/falling is impacted, thus this doesn't affect friction/traction/movement ability unless specifically called out to do so. If this would be unpalatable due to desire for a stronger simulationist leaning, a house rule would be justifiable.

Now, I know by your reading, you inferred that the text suggested such a thing, but merely floating in space can reasonably be interpreted as simply floating through space, using the creature's most prominent movement mode to determine its speed of travelling through space. From a narrativist perspective, this makes a lot more sense, thus is probably the more reasonable base assumption on which to construct a premise.
Floating has two definitions: 1) The being boyant not falling type of floating. 2) The hovering magic type of floating.

Now you are suggesting that "because it's a game" that it goes with 2. But considering that D&D has things like saying that things like physics work unless the game says they don't and the fact the game Tries to be simulation despite how... well inefficient and ridiculous that is commonly, isn't it much more likely that they are using the same definition for floating in zero gravity as what happens when people float in zero gravity, rather than in zero gravity people get a superpower that we don't even follow for the single zero gravity plane (since on the ethereal they don't get to walk at their move speed in the end)....? Isn't it much more likely that the zero gravity rules use the first defintion as it is trying to be general zero gravity rules, but the ethereal is special so that creatures can walk through in the special way it describes in the Ethereal Jaunt spell. If 1) is true, then ethereal jaunt gives information that makes the ethereal have a special rule. If 2) is true, then the ethereal jaunt spell conflicts with your interpretation since it doesn't follow what the no gravity rule says in it having a different speed to your interpretation.

As for "A surface being required to use your land speed in every circumstance ever doesn't seem to be called out in the movement rules, or anywhere else I can find, so I think that assumption is part of the issue with your premise." I'm amazed that it would be required. Since if it isn't required then people should be able to walk on nothing on the material plane and then just fall at the end of their turn. :smallconfused:

It's a game that doesn't list some obvious things like "what action is it to breath or blink" or "land speed require land to move across".

[Aegis013]

I did my best to explain my thoughts on the matter, but like I said, it's just my opinion. It's no more valid than your own.

I just think it's more sensible to adjust assumptions such that the result is sensible, which result we think is more sensible is just a harmless difference of opinion. The ethereal plane is an inherently magical place, saying "it's magic" is just as good an explanation for moving on that plane as for the Wizard's ability to cast spells in my opinion.

[Telok]

Your premise is that movement in PF and 3.5 requires all of the same conditions as real life in every circumstance (magic being a sufficient explanation for itself but not for planes, an inherently similarly fantastical concept). This would be sensible from a 100% simulationist view point, but PF and 3.5 are both not quite that style of game.

A surface being required to use your land speed in every circumstance ever doesn't seem to be called out in the movement rules, or anywhere else I can find, so I think that assumption is part of the issue with your premise.

This of course somewhat implies that you can use a fly speed underwater, a swim speed in orbit around a planet, and a burrow speed to move through the Plane of Air. It also directly implies that you can use your walking speed in any situation that doesn't occur on the Earth-like prime material and doesn't explicitly state that you are unable to walk.

If a spell in the Player's Handbook didn't explicitly define a general movement rule for the entire plane then there would be no definite statement about how movement was accomplished there (I, like many people, don't have a copy of MoP). Thus, if you don't know that a spell defines a general planar trait and you look at the explanations of the planes and their traits, then there appears to be no RAW method for anything to move on that plane. This is where the confusion and dissention come from.

With the rule about movement tucked away in a different book, in an unrelated section, people have to start making assumptions. Some assume that due to 3.e's simulationist nature and the need for rules to permit something to happen that without a rule the action is impermissible. Others assume that since the needs of the narrative involve something happening, and there are creatures stated to take the action, then that action is permitted to everyone. This is the root of the dispute, ignorance about a single sentence in a different book from the book that defines part of the Ethereal plane and people's different styles of using the rules.

[ZamielVanWeber]

This is relevant to the topic but not to the discussion at hand: the Khen-zai (ethergaunts) have a civilization hidden somewhere in the ethereal. So there is solid stuff somwhere. They even managed to enslave a race who later rebelled.

[Aegis013]

This of course somewhat implies that you can use a fly speed underwater, a swim speed in orbit around a planet, and a burrow speed to move through the Plane of Air. It also directly implies that you can use your walking speed in any situation that doesn't occur on the Earth-like prime material and doesn't explicitly state that you are unable to walk.

It doesn't necessarily imply what you're saying. Each of those are unique situations and any other circumstance related to them would need to be considered. For example, I personally think you can indeed use a fly speed underwater with a sufficient Swim check. You only move one quarter speed, but you'd still be using your fly speed.

The idea is basically, you don't control exactly what the rules say, but you do control your assumptions and interpretations of the rules, so pick the ones that work best for you. For me, gamey concepts that improve the flow of the game and help the world's verisimilitude are acceptable. For you, maybe not, and if that is the case it's OK, it's not up to me to say what kind of interpretation is the most fun for you.



With the rule about movement tucked away in a different book, in an unrelated section, people have to start making assumptions. Some assume that due to 3.e's simulationist nature and the need for rules to permit something to happen that without a rule the action is impermissible. Others assume that since the needs of the narrative involve something happening, and there are creatures stated to take the action, then that action is permitted to everyone. This is the root of the dispute, ignorance about a single sentence in a different book from the book that defines part of the Ethereal plane and people's different styles of using the rules.

The discussion at hand is no longer explicitly about movement on the ethereal, that has been conclusively settled. It's now more about the reasoning behind the arguments and whether or not such a rule is strictly necessary or if extrapolation should suffice and the reasoning behind each side.