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Job
2007-06-04, 01:35 AM
I’ve never been happy with other people’s conversations of Final Fantasy monster as they almost always have a CR way outside the realm of what is reasonable, and pay more attention to the video game mechanics then capturing the essence of the creature in a form that promotes internal consistency within the table-top game.

So I humbly present this conversion for criticism.

Name: Cactuar
Type/Size: small plant
Hit dice: 2d8+2 (11)
Initiative: + 7
Speed: 40 ft.
Armor Class: 20 (+1 size, +7 dex, +2 natural), touch 18, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: 1/-4
Attack: slam +9 melee (1d3-1)
Full Attack: 1 slam
Space/Reach: 5 ft./ 5 ft.
Special Attacks: thousand needles
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, plant-traits, evasion
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +7, Will +1
Abilities: Str 8, Dex 24, Con 13, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 10
Skills: escape artist + 16*, listen +3, spot +3
Feats: Weapon Finesse, Alertness(B)

Environment: desert
Organization: Solitary, pair, or troop (5-7)
Challenge Rating: 2
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: chaotic neutral
Advancement: 2-5 (small), 6-9 (medium), 10-13 (large), 14-17 (huge)
Level Adjustment: -

This creature appears to be a small cactus having physical characteristics similar to a humanoid: two arms, two legs and dark spots on its anterior in the shape of a mouth and eyes. Its limbs protrude and bend at ninety-degree angles giving it a rigid look, which belies the speed and agility with which it can move.

Cactuars, are an intelligent desert-dwelling race of plants, they are very easily frightened and will almost always run when confronted with anything larger then themselves and only attack if cornered, usually employing their needle spray ability to give any would-be attacker pause. It is rumored that sufficiently old cactuar can grow to a very large size.
Cactuars “speak” a complex form a body language to one-another, they also understand and sometime speak common.

Combat:

Thousand needles (Ex,Bm**): 3/day as a standard action a Cactuar con loose a spray of needles form its body at a single target within 60 ft. The spray deals Xd8 points of damage where X is the Catuars hit dice total (2d8). Targets can attempt a DC 18 reflex save to take half-damage. The Save DC is dexterity based.

Evasion (Ex): Cactuars have evasion as the rogue class feature of the same name.

Skills: *Cactuars have a +4 racial bonus on escape artist checks.

** Bm, denotes a Blue magic ability

ZeroNumerous
2007-06-04, 02:26 AM
My suggestion is to change the Needle Spray ability to "One Thousand Needles(Ex)". State that it deal Xd8 damage to a 5x5 foot square, where X is equal to the Cactuar's hit dice. Any creature caught in the square would get a reflex save for half. This way, you reduce the dice rolling(by 9 dice!) and make multiple Cactuars are much more reasonable event, along with getting the same amount of damage as the original 10d2. Also, you should note that Plants are generally True Neutral unless it's a sentient plant.

Job
2007-06-04, 02:40 AM
My suggestion is to change the Needle Spray ability to "One Thousand Needles(Ex)". State that it deal Xd8 damage to a 5x5 foot square, where X is equal to the Cactuar's hit dice. Any creature caught in the square would get a reflex save for half. This way, you reduce the dice rolling(by 9 dice!) and make multiple Cactuars are much more reasonable event, along with getting the same amount of damage as the original 10d2. Also, you should note that Plants are generally True Neutral unless it's a sentient plant.

That does seem more reasonable, I was simply modeling it off the manticore, ill adjust it soon.

Cactuars are sentient in this conversion.

TheOOB
2007-06-04, 02:44 AM
Still, cactuars have never really shown any alignment tendancies. They are tricky and prone to running away, but thats not neccesarly chaotic.

levi
2007-06-06, 06:19 AM
Ok, you complain that other people's Final Fantasy conversions have compleatly wrong CRs and then present a Cactuar conversion with a silly low CR. In the Cactuar's first apperance (FF6), it's level 27 out of a max 99, so in DnD, it should be at least CR 5.

However, in the same game, the final boss is only level 71. Therefore using a ratio of 71 to 20, the Cactuar should be CR 7 or 8. However, this is freaking Kefka, in his final boss battle, he'd definetly epic, therefor, I'd say he's more like level 25 in DnD. Using a ratio of 71 to 25, the Cactuar should be level 9 or 10.

Now before you go off about sticking to closely to video game mechanics, I presented these numbers to back up my gut feeling that CR is way too low. Cactuars aren't low level push overs, they are mid to late game monsters. (In most FFs anyway, in XII you can fight them earlier, but at low levels they'll cream you.)

They do a thousand damage in one shot with no defense. Early game, that will kill you outright. In DnD, that should be more than an avarage of 15 damage They are not CR 2.

ZeroNumerous
2007-06-06, 08:20 AM
Average of fifteen damage. At 2 hit dice. Average of 15 damage to a level 2 Fighter, who at absolute maximum has 30 HP assuming a base 20 CON. Along with that, assuming a base 20 STR and a masterwork weapon he'd have to roll an 10 or higher to hit it. Thats a 50/50 shot, while the creature kills him on it's second turn.

It fits damn well with FF6, because a Cactuar kills you on it's second turn.

Yuki Akuma
2007-06-06, 08:35 AM
A cactaur is not a cactaur without Thousand Needles.

ZeroNumerous
2007-06-06, 08:46 AM
My suggestion is to change the Needle Spray ability to "One Thousand Needles(Ex)".

I know. :smallsmile:

Yuki Akuma
2007-06-06, 08:47 AM
I mean, what self-respecting Blue Mage will want an ability called "Needle Spray" over an ability called "Thousand Needles"?

It's madness, I tell you!

Job
2007-06-06, 11:56 AM
Ok, you complain that other people's Final Fantasy conversions have compleatly wrong CRs and then present a Cactuar conversion with a silly low CR. In the Cactuar's first apperance (FF6), it's level 27 out of a max 99, so in DnD, it should be at least CR 5.

However, in the same game, the final boss is only level 71. Therefore using a ratio of 71 to 20, the Cactuar should be CR 7 or 8. However, this is freaking Kefka, in his final boss battle, he'd definetly epic, therefor, I'd say he's more like level 25 in DnD. Using a ratio of 71 to 25, the Cactuar should be level 9 or 10.

Now before you go off about sticking to closely to video game mechanics, I presented these numbers to back up my gut feeling that CR is way too low. Cactuars aren't low level push overs, they are mid to late game monsters. (In most FFs anyway, in XII you can fight them earlier, but at low levels they'll cream you.)

They do a thousand damage in one shot with no defense. Early game, that will kill you outright. In DnD, that should be more than an avarage of 15 damage They are not CR 2.

We are simply working for two different perspectives here. It is true that in some games the cactuar is a powerful mid-late game monster and if you prefer it that way then a CR of 7-8 is appropriate, however FF X and FF X11 has cactuars or monsters having identical skins appear early in the game, in the thunder plains and the estersands (the second area) respectively. My perspective is that if every monster in the world were giving a CR in direct proportions to its level in a final fantasy game (on the 1-99 scale you used in your example) the world would be so overrun with high level monsters that no civilization of common humanoids could have possibly developed. This conversions only satisfies my gut feeling that a small cactus should not be a dominating force in a desert ecosystem, or be able to match mid level fighters, again just trying to make creature that promote internal consistency.


On that note, I first called it “needle spray” thinking that the first human to encounter a cacutar would not have initially thought: “wow that thing just threw a thousand needles at me” but rather “ ouch that thing just sprayed a bunch of needles at me” , in retrospect however , when that same human told his friend of the encounter later that day, he might have been speaking in hyperbole and claimed the thing shot a thousand needles.

ZeroNumerous
2007-06-06, 12:37 PM
Thats one reason that I suggest using a variable HD based attack when you convert monsters from Final Fantasy. Monsters become significantly weaker/stronger based your strengths/weaknesses in the latest FF games, so a variable based on hit dice simulates this without unbalancing the monster versus it's CR.

Job
2007-06-06, 02:58 PM
Thats one reason that I suggest using a variable HD based attack when you convert monsters from Final Fantasy. Monsters become significantly weaker/stronger based your strengths/weaknesses in the latest FF games, so a variable based on hit dice simulates this without unbalancing the monster versus it's CR.

I totally agree, whenever I’m working with a new monster, or updating an old one I like to make sure its special abilities/powers scale with it’s hit dice.

Also Levi:

When I was complaining about overpowered monsters and in my response to you, I was not suggesting your position is unreasonable. What I am complaining about is people who do things like adding +2000 hp to monsters they convert just to make it match with in game hp totals.

levi
2007-06-07, 12:04 AM
Ok, I see. At least I understand that part about conversion. I immagine the same people would expect Ten Thousand Needles to do 1000 damage. I suppose you are right, it all depends on which game you base the Cactuar on wether it works out to CR 2 or not.

It's true that the power of the Cactaur in X is lower than in other games, so I guess it's proably OK. However, my complaint was based on memories I have of fear, panic, and running away when encountering the cute little buggers. If you can't handle 1000 dmg consistantly (which you can't early game), you don't want to fight them, thus seeing them at CR 2 kinda struck as off.

I agree with the suggestion that the ability should scale with HD. That way, I can just advance it's hit dice to get the CR I think is right. It'd be the best of both worlds.

Another thing about Ten Thousand Needles is that it bypasses your defence. As armor works signifigantly differently in DnD, I'm not sure how exactly to translate that, but something of the sort should be done. The two ideas I had where making it a ranged touch attack, or the idea suggested earlier that it be an area of affect attack. Either way, it negates the effect of armor, which is one of the key things that makes the attack special.

I also agree that rolling each needle seperately is a lot of work. Furthermore, the attack doesn't really work like that. You don't get hit with 600 or so needles, you either take 1000 to the dome, or nothing. I'm not saying it should have fixed damage, that'd be a bit too literal of a conversion, I'm just saying I think the whole attack should hit or miss in one roll.

On a related note, does anyone remember when the Cactuar attack was called Ten Thousand Needles? It still did 1000 dmg, because I remember calculating that that was 1/10th of a damage per needle. I also seem to remember a Thousand Needles attack that did 100 dmg. Does anyone know what I'm talking about, or is it all in my head?

Sorry if my first post seemed a little harsh. It's actually a very good conversion. Now that I think about it, averaging the various FF games together, I think about CR 5 is right for a Cactuar. If the ability scaled with hit dice, one could simply advance your version to about 18 hit dice. Speaking of advancement, I don't think it should get bigger with advancement. Somehow fighting a giant Cactuar (other than King Cactuar) doesn't feel right to me. As is, with the size increase, they reach CR 5 at 14 HD.

ZeroNumerous
2007-06-07, 04:36 AM
Thats one reason I suggested the ability just auto-hit whatever was in the square the Cactuar aimed at. You got a reflex save versus knocking some of them away, but theres so many it doesn't matter. Eventually, you get hit.

Job
2007-06-08, 01:10 AM
The advanced form: 17 hit dice and huge, note that the biggest cactuar was only 30ft tall or so, which places him comfortable in the huge category.

Name: "Jumbo" Cactuar
Type/Size: huge plant
Hit dice: 17d8+102 (178)
Initiative: + 10
Speed: 40 ft.
Armor Class: 21 (-3 size, +6 dex, +8 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: 12/37
Attack: slam +21 melee (1d8+9)
Full Attack: 1 slam
Space/Reach: 15 ft./ 15 ft.
Special Attacks: thousand needles
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, plant-traits, evasion
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +7, Will +1
Abilities: Str 28, Dex 22, Con 23, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 10
Skills: escape artist + 15*, listen +3, spot +18
Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Improved Natural Armor, Improved Initiative, Run Weapon Finesse, Alertness(B)

Environment: desert
Organization: Solitary, pair, or troop (5-7)
Challenge Rating: ?
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: chaotic neutral
Advancement: 2-5 (small), 6-9 (medium), 10-13 (large), 14-17 (huge)
Level Adjustment: -

Combat:

Thousand needles (Ex,Bm**): 3/day as a standard action a Cactuar con loose a spray of needles form its body at a single target within 60 ft. The spray deals Xd8 points of damage where X is the Catuars hit dice total (17d8). Targets can attempt a DC 24 reflex save to take half-damage. The Save DC is dexterity based.

Evasion (Ex): Cactuars have evasion as the rogue class feature of the same name.

Skills: *Cactuars have a +4 racial bonus on escape artist checks.

** Bm, denotes a Blue magic ability