I could use a little help with my new character of the rogue-ish persuasion.

[dehro]

Hallo...
I am set to play a rogue or something close to it and could really use a bit of help beyond being pointed towards the various handbooks, which I tend to be able to find on my own.

Race: human (or something that automatically passes for human), with allowance for a template. I have already showed up in the campaign, so this is not negotiable. A template shouldn't cost more than one level, if any. Same goes for the race... I'd rather not end up at LA -2 for a template/race combo
Note: we play with XP penalties for multiclassing, so human is probably my best option. Level buyoff is not contemplated.
Alignment: from mercenary/neutral to good of whatever flavour, possibly not legal stupid.
Level: 12
Budget: 70.000 GP
Setting: a homebrew based strongly on faerun... The only things changing are the political and historical situation.
Classes allowed: all classes, no third party, no psionics and we all pretty much dislike monks to the point of making it a no go. Preferably no evil-only classes.
Spells allowed: any that is in the spell compendium or core books. Nothing from anywhere else that isn't there also.
Items allowed: any from the magic item compendium or core books. Nothing from anywhere else. No relics.
The rest of the party goes from opportunistic neutral to extremely good... (yes, we even have a saint template endowed paladin) Some of the players (including the paladin) will look for any excuse to have a cause for infighting within the party. Being suspected of being evil would almost certainly trigger that. Our fearless party leader is a cleric of Kelemvor with a short temper, which makes resurrection very hard or impossible to pull off.

Character role: He's been recruited under the assumption that he knows his way around the land/wilderness/dungeons and can function as the party's scout/guide and traps and locks neutraliser. He's basically a rogue with a few outdoorsy survival tricks up his sleeves... Probably skill monkey is the closest definition of his role.
I'm looking at the wilderness rogue variant, possibly a few levels of scout... Possibly some levels of prestige class with a suitable/unusual flavour.
What I am NOT looking for, and this is important, is a character that reeks of optimisation or who dips in half a dozen classes purely to qualify for that one elusive feat or combo. The build must be simple, two classes tops if not straight up one class... A single prestige class is allowed as alternative to dual class or as cherry on top of it. From experience, anything that needs to be argued that it isn't optimisation and that walks the line between RAW and RAI, will reek of optimisation to the other players.
Ideally the guy would be a master at making himself scarce/hide in the shadows or otherwise sneak up on or away from people. Since we routinely face big monsters who seem to come equipped with the ability to see the invisible, having access to invisibility may not be the answer to making him the master of sneak.
Since the role will make me prone to being sent out ahead of the party, I'd rather have high spot and listen stats and possibly, if feasible, some form of darkvision.

Combat-wise, I have no particular preference in terms of melee vs long range or the use or lack of magical powers (as long as focusing on either of those options doesn't take away from his main role, which is that of guide and dungeon crawl facilitator). Long range seems more suited to the character concept... That said the aforementioned creatures have a tendency to reduce the crap out of damage, so being able to fire arrows that deal 6/15 points of damage is probably going to make him look pointless... Unless his other talents more than make up for his lack of damage output. I am not particularly worried about playing classes from the bad tiers... With "friends" who up and leave you to die in the clutches of a big scaly monster (that literally just happened), I should probably either make myself self sufficient or just not get my hopes of survival too high, and just hide behind the pile of dead bards until my non combat skills make me useful again.

The beginning stats I am playing with are as follows: 16 16 13 13 11 7.
I figure the dump stat is going to be charisma, but I'm open to suggestions otherwise

Tl;Dr: I need help building an outdoorsy rogue who is good at hiding, mobile and can help with traps, maps and locks. It needs to balance between not being super optimised and not being cannon fodder. The spoilered limitations apply.

Any help with simple/feasible concepts or ideas will be appreciated.. Any help in the form of a spelled out build will be doubly appreciated.

[dehro]

Update: I'm looking at the dark creature template and the shadow dancer with interest... They seem to be doing similar things at different times and costs.

[nedz]

I wouldn't go Rogue/Scout since that would mean you have to meet two conditions to qualify for both sneak and skirmish.

Rogue / Ranger is a better idea: this gives you a number of options Ranger 2 gets you TWF or Rapid Shot obviously.

Rogue / Warlock is quite useful. Warlock 2 gives you a magical ranged touch means of delivering sneak as well as Det magic at will.
Also two least invocations, interesting choices include: All Seeing Eyes (Comp Lang, +6 Spot and Search), Baleful Utterance (Shatter - might be too OP), Breath of the Night (fog cloud), Call of the Beast (Speak with Animals and Wild Empathy), Eldritch Glaive (might be too OP), Leaps and Bounds (+6 Balance, Jump, and Tumble), See the Unseen (ee invisibility and darkvision), Serpents Tongue (Scent and +5 vee poisons), Spiderwalk (Spider climb and immune to webs).

And there's always Swift Hunter, but that normally requires movement optimisation.

[Chronos]

Shadow dancer is good only in a core-only game: It just costs you way too much, especially in feats. That's not such a big deal in core-only, where there aren't many good feats for a rogue, and where there aren't any easier ways to get Hide in Plain Sight, but when you go beyond core, there are both better ways to get HiPS, and more good feats available.

The Dark template is one good way of getting HiPS, but be warned: As written, the Dark version of the ability does not let you ignore the concealment requirement (which is the more important part), just the requirement of not being observed. This may or may not be an editing mistake; ask your DM what interpretation he takes.

Another good option is the Umbral Disciple prestige class from Magic of Incarnum, along with probably one level of Incarnate. Umbral Disciple does give concealment with its HiPS, along with a few other goodies, and Incarnate can get all sorts of boosts to skills (which stack with most other bonuses, as they're of the uncommon Insight bonus type).

And no matter what else you take, you absolutely must take the Darkstalker feat, from Lords of Madness.

[Val666]

.-. Go Swordsage :v

[dehro]

In terms of characterisation, I rate the dark template above the swift Hunter.
Incarnations, Umbral disciple and its requirements are a bit too complicated for my tastes.
Rogue warlock sounds interesting...

[nedz]

Rogue warlock sounds interesting...

You want 1, 2, 4 or 6 levels.
Less is probably more if you just want a rogue with a few tricks.
4 levels for an extra invocation and more UMD abuse.
6 levels for a lesser invocation and the ability to take Extra Invocation (least) as a feat.
You are displacing sneak dice with EB dice, which might be an issue in combat unless you go Eldritch Glaive or Eldritch Claws. Eldritch Claws is just a feat mind.

Rogue 10 also opens Special ability, which more than two Warlock levels will delay beyond 12th.

Do you want a Fey or Dark powers flavour ?

[dehro]

I'm thinking warlock 6, rogue 5, dark creature template... Or Warlock 4 rogue 7... Using Eldritch spear to put some distance between me and the target... Or a bow to stay away even further.
Either way I'd go rogue further up the ladder

[nedz]

PrCs are tricky, but this is an interesting build I've been exploring.
Rogue 1 / Beguiler 1 / Warlock 3 — Rogue 2 / Beguiler 1 / Warlock 2 — Rogue 3 / Beguiler 1 / Warlock 1
Opens up Unseen Seer, which can be used to progress Warlock with skills and sneak dice.
2-1-2 is probably the best because Evasion and Det Magic

It's not terribly high OP, also you have Trapfinding twice so use a Rogue ACF.

More Beguiler would be a very different character.

[Val666]

I think the suggestion of Unseen Seer is very cool also with your idea of Eldritch Spear. You have roguish and arcanist flavour and you can snipe witu eldrith spear + sneak attack from a distance. With ways of increasing those two a good amount of damage can be achieved. You won't one shot the boss but you got melee (still capable with eldritch claws) nuke/battlefield control with spells. I find the sniping thing very funny. You can surely one shot commoners so imagine this: want to kill a corrupt mayor/president/important person? Explode his head with a snipe then move amd repeat.

[nedz]

Eldritch spear is good, but sneak attack is limited to 30' (without more work) which is also the range of Eldritch blast.

Ed: also just remembered that Beguiler 1 gives you Det Magic as a cantrip so you might not need it at will.

[dehro]

I can see how that would work but it really is one class too many, also, we already have a beguiler in the party and I'd rather not do the same.
No, I think I'll stick to something in the vein of my previous post, even though I know it's anything but optimised...
Now I gotta figure out how to not blow the feat progression, lol

[nedz]

OK

Feats: Precise Shot or not ? Two feats for +1/+1 or a -4 if firing into combat.
Do you intend to melle, is another way of looking at this ?

[dehro]

Precise shot, yes.. Also, I forgot to reiterate.. Wilderness rogue variant could be an option..
Definitely going to avoid melee and focus on long range and being useful beyond the fighting.

Uhmm.. Human dark template, Rogue 1, warlock 6, rogue 4...

[nedz]

I'd kind of assumed Wilderness rogue.

Also interleaving your Warlock and Rogue levels is better for skill allocations
Rogue 1 / Warlock +2 / Rogue +1 (or +2) etc.
Able Learner could avoid having to do this ?
Feat timing might be more important though.

Deadeye Shot ( Player's Handbook II p78) will be useful to you then.
This requires BAB 4 which effects the timing.
This points to something like
Rogue 1 / Warlock +2 / Rogue +2 / Warlock +2 / Rogue +1 to take Deadeye Shot at 9th

Extra Invocation at 12th leaving two feats open, or one if you take Able Learner.
Ed:
Nymph's Kiss is an option, especially if you were going for a Fey theme anyway ?

Ed: Oops got my numbers wrong there.
Rogue 1 / Warlock +2 / Rogue +1 / Warlock +2 for Deadeye Shot at 6th
Rogue 1 / Warlock +2 / Rogue +1 / Warlock +2 / Rogue +1 / Warlock +2 for Extra Invocation at 9th

[dehro]

Rogue 1 / Warlock +2 / Rogue +1 / Warlock +2 for Deadeye Shot at 6th
Rogue 1 / Warlock +2 / Rogue +1 / Warlock +2 / Rogue +1 / Warlock +2 for Extra Invocation at 9th

this is where I tend to fumble my int rolls..
how do I progress in the first case to go up to 11th level? and how about the second?

edit: they're the same... :smallsigh:
does deadeye shot apply to eldritch blast??

[nedz]

this is where I tend to fumble my int rolls..
how do I progress in the first case to go up to 11th level? and how about the second?

The second build follows on from the first.
Since the second has the number of Warlock levels you want - just add more Rogue.

So:
Rogue 1 / Warlock +2 / Rogue +1 / Warlock +2 / Rogue +1 / Warlock +2 / Rogue +2; then more Rogue

Ed:
Do you know how much Int you will have ?
Do you know which skills you need ?
This will tell us whether you need Able Learner (Probably) or Nymph's Kiss (Maybe).

[dehro]

The second build follows on from the first.
Since the second has the number of Warlock levels you want - just add more Rogue.

So:
Rogue 1 / Warlock +2 / Rogue +1 / Warlock +2 / Rogue +1 / Warlock +2 / Rogue +2; then more Rogue

you swordsage'd my edit, lol..

does the deadeye shot apply to eldritch blast though? (and for that matter all the talents geared towards archery)

[nedz]

does the deadeye shot apply to eldritch blast though? (and for that matter all the talents geared towards archery)

Yes

If you ready a ranged attack to occur when an ally strikes a particular target, ...
It just says Ranged attack.

PBS and PS are fine also.

[dehro]

I'm thinking
able learner, PBS,

PS

Deadeye shot,

extra invocation (though this one is in doubt.. I'm going to focus mostly on the thievery stuff and would like to see if there's something that is possibly of use in that department, albeit not necessarily for combat... though I admit that there are a bunch of least invocations that could supplement the rogue-ish abilities).

[nedz]

Extra invocation is a good feat, but:

Work out what invocations you want: One lesser, three least.

Compare what your fourth choice of least invocation would be with other feats.

It is possible to buy Essences and Shapes via Rods of Eldritch Power (CMage p127). Eldritch Spear could be bought for 4,000 gp

[Troacctid]

The Darkness invocation lets you get Hide in Plain Sight as a feat (Blend into Darkness, from Drow of the Underdark), which could be better than taking a template.

I'd definitely recommend Obtain Familiar as a feat. It is very good on skillful characters because the familiar shares all your skill ranks, meaning it can aid you on your checks to give you +2 to everything, roll its own separate check to essentially let you roll twice and take the better result, or make a check remotely while you're standing across the room. It's also useful to have a buddy who can move your magical darkness around—you want it covering your allies, but not your enemies, and sometimes that takes some finagling. Also, familiars often have scent or other perceptive abilities, which is great.

[Curmudgeon]

Setting: a homebrew based strongly on faerun... The only things changing are the political and historical situation.
Have you looked at the Faerûn-specific version of Dark Creature template in Cormyr: The Tearing Of The Weave on page 152? It's superior to the regular version.

[dehro]

Have you looked at the Faerûn-specific version of Dark Creature template in Cormyr: The Tearing Of The Weave on page 152? It's superior to the regular version.

The one with Hips? That's the one I'm looking at, yes.

Familiar is appealing but would encounter disapproval from the DM if it was any of the very useful ones, and not taking one of those makes it rather pointless to begin with.

Getting the extra Invocations by means of rods and wands is something I'm already looking into... So That would leave me with one potential feat to allocate... Any suggestion?

[Andezzar]

The one with Hips? That's the one I'm looking at, yes.They both give HiPS, but the one in Cormyr: Tearing of the Weave is Supernatural and removes the need for concealment. The one in ToM is Ex but does not remove the need for concealment. Both versions don't work in sunlight.

Either way, make sure you have a way to get back to the material plane. Once the template is applied you are considered extraplanar on the material plane and the plane of shadow your home. Dismissal and banishment can be used by NPCs too.

[nedz]

Getting the extra Invocations by means of rods and wands is something I'm already looking into... So That would leave me with one potential feat to allocate... Any suggestion?

Darkstalker and Craven are always popular.

Improved Precise Shot, Woodland Archer and Able Sniper are possible — but probably not worth it.

Knowledge Devotion, Travel Devotion or Law Devotion are good.

Martial Study, Wild Talent or Bind Vestige — if you want to grab something from a differernt sub-system.

and there's always Improved Initiative.

Any ideas about your invocations ?

If you are going for flight you should look at Fly-by-attack

[Curmudgeon]

Darkstalker and Craven are always popular.
Generally if you're emphasizing stealth then Darkstalker would give you more benefit. If you've got both a high probability of making sneak attacks and a high critical likelihood (using a keen rapier as your main weapon, for example) then go for Craven because its non-dice sneak attack bonus gets multiplied on critical hits.

[Troacctid]

Familiar is appealing but would encounter disapproval from the DM if it was any of the very useful ones, and not taking one of those makes it rather pointless to begin with.

Most familiars are useful. I doubt your DM would object to a bat, rat, owl, raven, or weasel. If you dig into splatbooks, you get more options like arctic foxes, gyrfalcons, huitzils, horned lizards, and albatrosses, but they're not better than the core ones, just different.

Of course, upgrading your familiar to a lantern archon, coure eladrin, imp, or quasit via Improved Familiar/Planar Familiar/Celestial Familiar is generally fantastic (the coure eladrin being especially great for sneak attacks, since it counters concealment and provides flanking), but you'd need 7 levels of Warlock to do that.

[nedz]

Empower Spell-Like Ability (Eldritch Blast) is also possible, but +50% damage on only 3d6 3/day is probably not worth it (+5.25 average damage).

Now a Chasuble of Fell Power (CArc p148) adds 1d6 or 2d6 (for 8,000 gp and 18,000 gp respectively) is probably a good buy, but the feat is still only adding 7 or 8.75 average damage even with this.

Also at Warlock 6 you can't empower level 2 blasts, which rules out most shapes, e.g. Eldritch Spear is a level 2 invocation (CArc p 133) so you'd need to be level 8 to do that. The table is here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#empowerSpellLikeAbility).

Incidently I don't rate the Warlock's Scepter (CArc p145) because of the limited returns for 28,000 gp.

[Troacctid]

Incidently I don't rate the Warlock's Scepter (CArc p145) because of the limited returns for 28,000 gp.

Warlock's Scepter was reprinted in the Magic Item Comendium at 8000 gp, making it much more appealing. (It's basically a +1 weapon with a +1-equivalent enchantment.)

[Rebel7284]

Rogue 1/Druid 10 with Able Learner makes for a pretty epic wilderness guide. Craven can give you more sneak attack while all the druid stuff helps you with getting places.

[dehro]

My plan is to do the scouting, unlocking and such and as soon as I fall upon the enemy, retreat to ranged...range (Eldritch spear range or even further if I use a bow, possibly with hideous shot...leaving the tanks and melee guys to do most of the work...So I am going for ranged (sneak)attacks.

On that note, my current shortlist for Invocations is as follows :
Baleful utterance, eldritch spear (which might be an overlap should I go with...), hideous shot, see the unseen (even though I get darkvision already from the template, seeing invisibile stuff is just that juicy), cloack of shadows (to maximise my hiding skills), spiderwalk (this I could get on a rod, but how long would it last? As long as the spell description or as long as the invocation description? And if it's on a rod is it still only personal or can I give it to others too? Either way it becomes irrelevant should I pick flee the scene or fell flight as my lesser invocation ).

Fell flight, flee the scene, walk unseen, disembodied hand (to minimise risks with the traps and locks, or possibly even attack from a place other than where the rest of me is), relentless dispelling.
http://cdn.meme.am/instances/400x/11907434.jpg

[nedz]

That's the trouble with dipping Warlock — you always want more Dark powers.

Don't go with Hideous blow is because

Standard action to use so

No Full attacks
No combining with other attack options like Charge, AoO etc.

It's an SLA so it provokes, unless you cast it defensively
Less chance of hitting because it's not a touch attack
Can only be used with a melle weapon


AFAIK Rods can only be used for shapes and essences.

Spiderwalk lasts 24 hours — as do all invocations, unless they state otherwise.

There has just been a thread on Disembodied hand — it isn't that useful.

Walk unseen — UMD a wand. In fact you can do this for a lot of things: Shatter, Fly, See Invisible; though the last two are better 24/7

[dehro]

That's why I listed hideous shot, not blow... Though I can't remember if it's third party or where else I read about it.

UMD?

[Andezzar]

That's the trouble with dipping Warlock — you always want more Dark powers.

Don't go with Hideous blow is because

Standard action to use so

No Full attacks
No combining with other attack options like Charge, AoO etc.

It's an SLA so it provokes, unless you cast it defensively
Less chance of hitting because it's not a touch attack
Can only be used with a melle weapon

Seconded. Meleelock only works with Eldritch Glaive or Eldtritch Claws. If those are unavailable go ranged.
Devil's Sight and Darkness is a nice combo to allow you to sneak attack at lower levels.

UMD = Use Magic Device

[dehro]

We're at level 12..
Since I can't seem to find where I read about hideous shot, I guess it must be a homebrew or something like it, and therefore banned. Too bad.

[nedz]

Warlock 4 gives you Deceive Item — which allows you to always Take-10 on UMD. Since you need 20 to activate a Wand: once you have Deceive Item and +10 UMD you can use any Wand automatically.

Other items have various DCs.

[Troacctid]

You can always double-check the Invocation Index (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/invocations) for a complete list of first-party invocations, although it has Dragonfire Adept invocations mixed in there too.


Warlock 4 gives you Deceive Item — which allows you to always Take-10 on UMD. Since you need 20 to activate a Wand: once you have Deceive Item and +10 UMD you can use any Wand automatically.

Other items have various DCs.

Yeah, you still probably want the skill maxed to activate scrolls, but wands are very useful, especially low-level ones, which are very affordable. As a sneak attacker, you'll definitely want to pick up wands of Golem Strike and Grave Strike to bypass sneak attack immunity, for instance. Obscuring Mist, Faerie Fire, Unseen Servant, and Benign Transposition are also handy.

[nedz]

Yeah, you still probably want the skill maxed to activate scrolls, but wands are very useful, especially low-level ones, which are very affordable. As a sneak attacker, you'll definitely want to pick up wands of Golem Strike and Grave Strike to bypass sneak attack immunity, for instance. Obscuring Mist, Faerie Fire, Unseen Servant, and Benign Transposition are also handy.

I quite like Wand of Web with Spiderwalk — it is a fairly obvious combo.

[dehro]

derp.. I hadn't worked out the acronym, Use Magic Devices... that's what you get for having your sheet in your mother tongue and asking advice in English, lol.

[dehro]

sooo... with craven, if I manage to deal sneak attack on an eldritch deflagration, my damage output at level 11 is 6d6+11... is that correct?
it's character level, not rogue level.. right?

[Curmudgeon]

Yes, Craven bonus sneak attack damage is +1 per character level.

[ComaVision]

sooo... with craven, if I manage to deal sneak attack on an eldritch deflagration, my damage output at level 11 is 6d6+11... is that correct?
it's character level, not rogue level.. right?

Level 11 as in Rogue 1/Warlock 10, yes. 5d6 elddritch blast, 1d6 sneak attack, +11 from character level.

[glitterbaby]

One thing I always like to do with any sneak attack/stealth build is to try and fit some Swordsage into it. Your non-initiator classes (so all of them) count as 1/2 initiator level so once you're a higher character level you can start taking higher level maneuvers with the Martial Study/Martial Stance feats. At character level 6 you have initiator level 3 and so you can take 2nds, at 10th you have 5 so you can take 3rds, and so on. There are quite a few maneuvers that are pretty good on a rogue/sneak-attacker. Some of them help you get your sneak attack off: Distracting Ember (flank buddy) and Cloak of Deception (1 round duration, swift action Greater Invisibility) come to mind. The big draw is going to be at level 10 when you can take Martial Stance for Assassin's Stance, which adds +2d6 to your sneak attack with the only requirement of having another Shadow Hand maneuver and most of those are pretty nice. I'd argue there's plenty of worthwhile maneuvers for a Rogue to justify a full level dip.

Edit: Whether or not it would fit in our build is up to you but it's something to consider.

[dehro]

It's a nice optimising concept... It's also a bit more of an optimisation than I am comfortable with... Also, I'm pretty sure my DM would smack me around the head with his monster manual if I suggested such blatant optimisation... And his manual is actually a bundle of all the monster manuals.
Nah, I am pretty satisfied with dark creature template/rogue 5/ warlock 6... And then add more rogue... As It is, the campaign is winding towards its end, so I don't expect to get more than a couple more levels before the big finale.

[glitterbaby]

It's a nice optimising concept... It's also a bit more of an optimisation than I am comfortable with... Also, I'm pretty sure my DM would smack me around the head with his monster manual if I suggested such blatant optimisation... And his manual is actually a bundle of all the monster manuals.
Nah, I am pretty satisfied with dark creature template/rogue 5/ warlock 6... And then add more rogue... As It is, the campaign is winding towards its end, so I don't expect to get more than a couple more levels before the big finale.

I've always thought of it more as understanding how the rules work and knowing how you can apply it to your character for a more effective and satisfying build on the whole. What the strategy actually gets you is a few extra d6s and some neat abilities that can serve to give your character more options in combat, far from power-gaming. That being said, feel free to ignore me entirely. This is your character and it's your decision to make. I merely offer the suggestion because I find characters with more options more fun to play, personally. It makes me feel as though even my in-combat decisions are relevant outside of just choosing who to target.

[dehro]

I agree with you on pretty much all accounts.. but it does come down to a level of optimisation that would be severely criticised if I brought it to the table... just not the right crowd for it, that's all :smallwink:

[glitterbaby]

I agree with you on pretty much all accounts.. but it does come down to a level of optimisation that would be severely criticised if I brought it to the table... just not the right crowd for it, that's all :smallwink:

Totally fair. Running that sort of thing with a blaster wizard, a healbot cleric, and a sword and board fighter wouldn't be too cool.

[dehro]

Uhm... I Just realised something...
If I attack with either the bow or the eldritch blast and then hide in plain sight after the attack.. Wouldn't that make having the deadeye shot feat redundant? Attacking the next round "from hiding" would allow me to sneak attack anyway, wouldn't it? I feel like I'm getting things mixed up..l

[Curmudgeon]

If I attack with either the bow or the eldritch blast and then hide in plain sight after the attack..
Are you planning to move after attacking? If so, you'll Hide as part of the movement, taking a -5 penalty if you move more than half your speed. If you're not planning to move, then you can't Hide after the attack, but only during it, with a -20 penalty. Operationally, there's a potential big advantage. If you were hidden when you started the attack, and also Hide while attacking, you never become visibly apparent; the enemy has no clue what square(s) you were occupying. They won't even know if you were attacking in melee or at range. If you're moving after attacking before you Hide, they know very well where you had been right up until you became hidden, so they've at least got an idea of where to center any area attacks.

[Andezzar]

Exactly the sniping option of the hide skill is strictly inferior to the hiding while attacking.

[dehro]

Well.. That's confusing..
I am playing with a shortbow and an eldritch blast with 75 m range. Feats and abilities include hide in plain sight, deadeye shot and the ones leading up to deadeye shot.
How do I go around maximising the effect of the chosen feats and weapons?
What is the strategy if I go first and what if the bad guys get the drop on me?
Do I move and hide, do I start by hiding, do I hide/attack/hide (can I?)?..
:smalleek::smallconfused:

[Andezzar]

Well.. That's confusing..
I am playing with a shortbow and an eldritch blast with 75 m range. Feats and abilities include hide in plain sight, deadeye shot and the ones leading up to deadeye shot.
How do I go around maximising the effect of the chosen feats and weapons?
What is the strategy if I go first and what if the bad guys get the drop on me? Do I move and hide, do I start by hiding, do I hide/attack/hide (can I?)?..
:smalleek::smallconfused:75 m is a problem as you cannot use sneak attack on ranged attacks beyond 30ft (unless you have other feats that increase the distance).

You do not need deadeye shot. You simply hide before shooting (no problem with HiPS), shoot from sneak attack range and make a second hide check (at -20) to remain hidden. Nobody saw you and you deliver the extra damage. Don't forget to optimize your hide check

Most likely due to sloppy wording remaining hidden during an attack works on all attacks not just melee attacks. So just do that instead of sniping. Not relevant for a rangelock, but you can even do full attacks that way.

[dehro]

that makes it a bit more clear...
so the deadeye shot could still be used in case of further distances when I am ignoring the whole sneak attack approach...
or I could just pick another feat like dalkstalker instead (I did take craven)

[Doctor Despair]

Be sure to grab the Darkstalker feat!

[nedz]

that makes it a bit more clear...
so the deadeye shot could still be used in case of further distances when I am ignoring the whole sneak attack approach...
or I could just pick another feat like dalkstalker instead (I did take craven)

What do you do when there is no cover in which to hide ?

Deadeye shot is just another means of generating sneak attack opportunities. Whether you need it or not is open to question.

Since you are playing a level 12 character with +1 LA you will have 11 HD and will be due a feat next level: So skip it and see, in play, whether it would be useful. You can always take it as soon as you level next.

[Andezzar]

What do you do when there is no cover in which to hide ?He already has HiPS from The dark creature template from C-TotW. That obviates the need for cover or concealment.


Deadeye shot is just another means of generating sneak attack opportunities. Whether you need it or not is open to question.Yes in bright sunlight, if other PCs attack the target. Otherwise HiPS and remaining hidden during an attack is way better.


Since you are playing a level 12 character with +1 LA you will have 11 HD and will be due a feat next level: So skip it and see, in play, whether it would be useful. You can always take it as soon as you level next.Good advice.

[dehro]

I've gone with Craven and Darkstalker... I'll see where it goes from there..
the DM is already poking holes in the build because of its poor saving throws (I didn't buy any stats enhancements and only a +1 saving throws enhancement item).. we'll wait and see if he's going to do his best to take advantage of it or not :smallbiggrin:

[nedz]

He already has HiPS from The dark creature template from C-TotW. That obviates the need for cover or concealment.

No it doesn't. It just allows you to hide whilst being observed.

[Andezzar]

No it doesn't. It just allows you to hide whilst being observed.You are talking about the one in ToM. The other version does that:
Hide in Plain Sight (Su): Can use the Hide skill while being observed and while lacking cover or concealment, except in natural daylight, the area of a daylight spell, or similar magical lighting.

[nedz]

You are talking about the one in ToM. The other version does that:

Well every version of HiPS is slightly different. I have to say though that natural daylight is fairly common.

[Andezzar]

YMMV. There isn't much daylight in dungeons.

[nedz]

YMMV. There isn't much daylight in dungeons.

Every game is different — lets just hope he's not playing in a Wilderness or City game.

Ed: also we don't know how his DM is going to rule on HiPS.

[Troacctid]

If you're a Warlock then you can just use your Darkness invocation and there you go, shadowy illumination.

[nedz]

If you're a Warlock then you can just use your Darkness invocation and there you go, shadowy illumination.

UMDing a Wand of Darkness is probably a better use of resources, but otherwise yes. It is an action though.

[Troacctid]

UMDing a Wand of Darkness is probably a better use of resources, but otherwise yes. It is an action though.

The invocation lasts like an hour and is usable at will, so you can just always have it active. Then the only action you need is whatever action it takes to draw the object you cast it on, which, for ammunition (such as a slingstone, AKA an ordinary rock), is a free action.

A wand would have limited charges and wouldn't last nearly as long, so you probably would need to spend an action, and since it requires a command word, you'd give yourself away if you tried to use it on demand in a stealthy situation. Much less practical. Deeper Darkness, with its 1 day/level duration, is probably better in that scenario.

[nedz]

The invocation lasts like an hour and is usable at will, so you can just always have it active. Then the only action you need is whatever action it takes to draw the object you cast it on, which, for ammunition (such as a slingstone, AKA an ordinary rock), is a free action.

A wand would have limited charges and wouldn't last nearly as long, so you probably would need to spend an action, and since it requires a command word, you'd give yourself away if you tried to use it on demand in a stealthy situation. Much less practical. Deeper Darkness, with its 1 day/level duration, is probably better in that scenario.

True, but you only get 4 invocations for 6 levels of Warlock. And you need Devil's sight, or similar, if you want to be able to sneak attack within the Darkness. This is two invocations.

[Troacctid]

Naw, just move the Darkness so you're in it and they're not. That's why you have a familiar. Or an Unseen Servant, I guess, if you're stingy with feats.

This works because you can see normally into illuminated areas even while you're in an area of darkness, and the spell only grants concealment to creatures within its area.

[Curmudgeon]

Naw, just move the Darkness so you're in it and they're not.
That doesn't help.
Concealment

To determine whether your target has concealment from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target’s square passes through a square or border that provides concealment, the target has concealment.
A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

[Troacctid]

Shadowy illumination only provides concealment against creatures who can see only dimly.

In an area of shadowy illumination, most creatures can see dimly. Creatures within this area have concealment against those who can see only dimly.
However, as you can see just fine into the illuminated area, the shadowy illumination does not provide concealment against you.

Using Distant Illumination: Observers outside the illumination radius of a light source can see into the illumination just fine, making Spot checks as normal to discern creatures or objects in the illuminated area.
The Darkness spell has an additional effect that grants concealment to creatures within the area, but it specifically only affects creatures within the area, much like Invisibility Sphere (which I'm sure most people would not interpret as providing total concealment to everything behind the sphere).

[Curmudgeon]

Shadowy illumination only provides concealment against creatures who can see only dimly.
That highlighted word is incorrect. If you can see your target only dimly, they have concealment from you. However, concealment also applies if it exists anywhere on a line between attacker and target, even if you can see the target just fine.

[Troacctid]

That highlighted word is incorrect. If you can see your target only dimly, they have concealment from you. However, concealment also applies if it exists anywhere on a line between attacker and target, even if you can see the target just fine.
If you can see the target just fine, they're not concealed.

concealment: Something that prevents an attacker from clearly seeing his or her target.
I can't find any rule that allows shadowy illumination to grant concealment against a creature whose vision isn't impaired by it, nor any that allows it to grant concealment to creatures outside its area, so I don't see a basis for concealment existing on a line between the attacker and the target here.

Besides, your interpretation violates common sense. If I'm sitting in a dark theater, and there's an actor on the stage with a spotlight shining directly on him, am I unable to see him because there's "dark" blocking my vision? That's not how light works.

[Rubik]

Have you looked at the factotum class from Dungeonscape at all? A factotum/swordsage (in pretty much any combination you like) could do just what you want. Both classes are great for being roguey types, and combining them means you have tons and tons of build options for whatever you want to do; just build toward a certain theme and stick with it. You'll have plenty of skillmonkeyness and plenty of martial prowess, with some spellcasting and supernatural tricks up your sleeves.

You could even take the Wild Cohort feat for an animal companion to help you flank.

[edit] Okay, rogue/warlock it is, then.

[Curmudgeon]

I can't find any rule that allows shadowy illumination to grant concealment against a creature whose vision isn't impaired by it ...
The rule I quoted is on page 152 of Player's Handbook, if you're having trouble finding it.

[Troacctid]

The rule I quoted is on page 152 of Player's Handbook, if you're having trouble finding it.

There has to be a square that grants concealment in order for the rule you quoted to apply. AFAICT, shadowy illumination doesn't do that.

[Curmudgeon]

There has to be a square that grants concealment in order for the rule you quoted to apply. AFAICT, shadowy illumination doesn't do that.

In an area of shadowy illumination, a character can see dimly. Creatures within this area have concealment relative to that character. A creature in an area of shadowy illumination can make a Hide check to conceal itself.
That's from page 164.

[Troacctid]

Rules Compendium updated that section. It's the same bit I already quoted above.


In an area of shadowy illumination, most creatures can see dimly. Creatures within this area have concealment against those who can see only dimly.

But the Player's Handbook text still has shadowy illumination only granting concealment to creatures within the area, and only relative to the character who can see only dimly.

[Curmudgeon]

But the Player's Handbook text still has shadowy illumination only granting concealment to creatures within the area, and only relative to the character who can see only dimly.
But then they extended the application of the condition (in the Combat chapter) so any bit of concealment on the line between the two characters provides concealment to both of them. It's not the way it works in our world, but it's the way it works in the D&D world.

[dehro]

for the sake of the discussion, these are the sources that apply to this character:


Use the Hide skill even while being observed (except in natural daylight, the area of a daylight spell, or a similar effect).


You are invisible to darkvision, although you are fully visible in normal light.

Least Invocation; 2nd
You can use darkness as the spell.

This spell causes an object to radiate shadowy illumination out to a 20-foot radius. All creatures in the area gain concealment (20% miss chance). Even creatures that can normally see in such conditions (such as with darkvision or low-light vision) have the miss chance in an area shrouded in magical darkness. Normal lights (torches, candles, lanterns, and so forth) are incapable of brightening the area, as are light spells of lower level (such as light or dancing lights). Higher level light spells (such as daylight) are not affected by darkness.
If darkness is cast on a small object that is then placed inside or under a lightproof covering, the spell’s effect is blocked until the covering is removed.
Darkness counters or dispels any light spell of equal or lower spell level.

When you use this invocation, you can activate great powers of vision, allowing you to see invisible creatures and objects (as see invisibility). You also gain darkvision out to 60 feet for a period of 24 hours.
I also get darkvision from the template (but seeing invisible creatures is juicy so I don't mind the partial waste of an evocation)

as a side-question: say I cast darkness on myself.. which has a radius of 20 ft... I also have 60ft of darkvision and the template grants x4 distance of superior low-light vision.
say I'm in a cave that has low light conditions... there are 3 invisible creatures.. one within the 20ft radius, one within my 4 times "normal human" sight range in low light, and one beyond that radius.
see the unseen allows me to see invisible creatures for as far as my sight goes. I guess that means I see the 2 closest to me, but not the third one.. amirite?

[nedz]

There's another problem with the Darkness trick.

Light spells counter and dispel darkness spells of an equal or lower level.
It's very easy to counter.

[dehro]

There's another problem with the Darkness trick.

It's very easy to counter.

yes... then again, we're mostly dungeon-crawling, so I reckon I'll be able to find other sources of concealment/cover.. also, I have infinite darkness... not sure many others have infinite light spells.

[nedz]

... not sure many others have infinite light spells.

Continual Flame is a level 3 Cleric spell.