3.5 Core Druid: Best melee strategy

[TomeGnome]

I have two methods I am considering as far as feats:

1 - Power Attack on pure natural attacks
2 - Metamagic Flame Blade (empowered and maximized for 18+.5d8 damage - average around 20 per hit)

I've done a lot of thinking, and I'll lay out the pros and cons I've found for each. Before we get into a debate, my DM has already ruled that using flame blade in a wild shape that has a functioning hand (e.g: gorillas and apes) is fine, and keep in mind we are using the spell point system for magic, but other than those details this is purely core rules (so only the main 3 books). Also, DM has said hard no on monster feats.

Power Attack
Pros:
* Primary attacks remain primary. Higher attack bonus/damage.
* Consumes less feats
* Str damage to all attacks
* Does not rely on forms with "hands"
Cons:
* All attacks take penalties, making secondary attacks useless most of the time
* Number of attacks remains
* All attacks target AC

Metamagic flame blade
Pros:
* Secondary attacks do not take penalties
* Gain iterative attacks every 5 points of BAB
* Flame blade targets touch AC making even 2nd, 3rd, 4th attacks viable
* Metamagic feats can be used to enhance other spells
Cons:
* All primary natural attacks become secondary
* Uses more feats
* Flame blade gets no Str bonus and all NA's only get 1/2 Str

I feel like it comes down to much more consistent hits and damage with flame blade and much stronger hits with power attack. Thoughts?

[Flickerdart]

What level are you at? It may be more profitable to pick a form with many primary weapons and buff strength, ignoring Power Attack and Flame Blade.

You can also combine the two - a scimitar is a one-handed weapon and can be wielded in both hands, giving you 2:1 PA returns on a touch attack.

[TomeGnome]

What level are you at? It may be more profitable to pick a form with many primary weapons and buff strength, ignoring Power Attack and Flame Blade.

You can also combine the two - a scimitar is a one-handed weapon and can be wielded in both hands, giving you 2:1 PA returns on a touch attack.

We're just about to hit level 7, so the question is more for the future as our characters level.

As far as dual-wielding, that has a lot of disadvantages unless you take the extra feats for it.

[Flickerdart]

As far as dual-wielding, that has a lot of disadvantages unless you take the extra feats for it.
Not dual-wielding. A one-handed weapon can be wielded in two hands. Weapons wielded in two hands gain 2:1 returns on Power Attack.

[TomeGnome]

Not dual-wielding. A one-handed weapon can be wielded in two hands. Weapons wielded in two hands gain 2:1 returns on Power Attack.

Ohhhhh.... I completely mistook your meaning. Yes, I'm aware that's an option, but it's still not ideal. It means missing out on the extra claw attack that I already get with the offhand in wild shape. Besides, since flame blade doesn't add Str, you're kinda trading one damage for another. On top of that, power attack would then still have the disadvantage of reducing attack bonus for those secondary claw and bite attacks and making them mostly useless. I feel like that method is kinda trying to have my cake and eat it too.

[eggynack]

I'm inclined to agree with Flickerdart's initial assertion. Take deinonychus form, pounce in, and beat face. No real need for power attack, given the poor ratio. Level eight you pick up some other forms, but that's the one to use in that range. You wind up with solid damage, and no investment beyond a wild shape use. My thinking is that you're usually better off if you're just using what's natively available to a druid for this kinda thing, augmenting your wild shape with the animal companion and maybe some summoned creatures for widespread face stabbing.

[TomeGnome]

Okay. Now that I've stopped skimming and started reading properly, I see the points being made properly. Apologies for misreading.

To address properly, we're in kinda an awkward position right now. We're kinda stupid powerful for our level because we as an evil party have basically robbed and cheated everyone we've crossed paths with. The problem is, in core rules, there's very little gear a druid can use to buff up due to wildshape melding all of my gear into me. I already have wild armor and shield, but other than that, nothing stacks with wild shape.

The position that leaves me in is that our DM has to throw stronger enemies at us to challenge us and even in my dino form, I can't hit things reliably except with flame blade. Any thoughts on ways to make the hits I land count more?

[TheCrowing1432]

Core Druids dont have much in the way of melee. Thats usually best left up to your animal companion or the fighter of the party while you spellcast.

Clearly you dont want to do that.

Even Core has some interesting buff forms used to beat face with. Try going into one of the cats with pounce?

As far as your DM using Fiat to make things hard to hit.

Well, uh....not much you can do against that unless you hit things that arent AC like touch ac or something

[TomeGnome]

Yeah, I'm starting to see that. I'm finally starting to get to levels where spellcasting is putting out the kind of damage we need to keep up.

I wonder if I should look into grapple feats since that will stack with size advantage when I take larger forms...

[Baroknik]

Yeah, I'm starting to see that. I'm finally starting to get to levels where spellcasting is putting out the kind of damage we need to keep up.

I wonder if I should look into grapple feats since that will stack with size advantage when I take larger forms...

I wouldn't recommend it just because even with wildshaping, grapple isn't extremely effective. Also (and this is honestly a bigger problem in my mind) grappling almost always slows down combat in my experience. Even having played since 3.0e released, I have to constantly re-check the grapple rules for certain information when trying to use them.

Note that I'm not saying to avoid grapple forms, but I definitely wouldn't look at it as a primary means of combat -- more as something to use when in the appropriate form (such as a lion, where it is a free bonus check due to improved grab).

I assume you took Natural Spell at 6th, in which case you have the entire chassis you need for casting (turn into a tiny bird and fly up into the sky to cast spells).

For melee advice, I would say just be creative. You need to do a single big hit? Turn into a rhino and charge for 4d6+24 damage. Need to take down several small targets clumped together? Turn into a lion and pounce on them with 5 separate attacks. Need to grapple? Turn into a polar bear and claw their faces then grapple them with your improved grab and +18 grapple modifier.

These are just forms for level 8, when you gain levels you can start looking towards dire forms or bigger, meaner monsters for these effects as well.

Overall, I would say focus on casting and your melee will benefit. Druids are T1 for a reason, and it's because of their versatility that falls back on their spell choices.

Tl;dr, you probably don't need to invest any feats into a melee build specifically. Given your two choices I would honestly go for the second one (with the spell) because the metamagic is going to give you a better payoff that will be more flexible if you decide to go in a different direction. Power Attack wouldn't be a terrible choice to pick up as a druid, but unless you have extra feats I'd stick with the metamagic.

[eggynack]

To address properly, we're in kinda an awkward position right now. We're kinda stupid powerful for our level because we as an evil party have basically robbed and cheated everyone we've crossed paths with. The problem is, in core rules, there's very little gear a druid can use to buff up due to wildshape melding all of my gear into me. I already have wild armor and shield, but other than that, nothing stacks with wild shape.

Aside from just removing gear and then getting it put back on after you're wild shape'd, which seems to work by the rules, there are a few things that do essentially work in a wild shape. The biggest thing is probably metamagic rods of extend spell, which can be applied to morning buffs before wild shape goes on, followed by pearls of power, which similarly aids your spellcraft out of wild shape in a way that still helps in wild shape. The same can also be said of the prayer bead of karma, which can be used to boost the caster level of your long term buffs. Most direct, however, is the noble ioun stone, which is gear that is neither worn nor carried. The end result of all of this should be somewhat more efficient use of your apparently vast funds.

[Akal Saris]

Hmm. If you're in a situation where you can't hit things well in melee with the standard pouncing type wild shapes, then maybe flame blade isn't such a bad choice anyhow. Is your Wisdom high enough to support using those metamagic feats (quicken, empower) on other spells as well?

Alternatively, until you can get some strength-boosting items, you could spend the first round of combat trying to boost your attack with bull's strength before charging (rhino form, etc.), or use attacks that don't target AC at all, like trampling or lightning bolt/storm.

[stanprollyright]

I prefer wildshaping into big cats for pounce and grab, but for pure melee I've always liked the Dire Ape/Shillelagh combo. 3d6+10 damage, still get iteratives, 2:1 PA returns. Flame Blade is a good backup if you're having trouble hitting regular AC, but I wouldn't invest resources (Empower) into it.

[Ermanti]

Dire Ape/Shillelagh/Thorns combo works really well. A monk dip for UAS and Superior UAS also works incredibly well, giving you iterative attacks on top of any natural attacks (monk's belt works for this too). Get wilding clasps (4k) from the MIC to use most magic items while in wildshape (cloaks, belts, amulets for certain). Alternately, animals DO have magic item slots, take off essential gear before wildshaping and have them put on you by a party member afterwards.

[TomeGnome]

Dire Ape/Shillelagh/Thorns combo works really well. A monk dip for UAS and Superior UAS also works incredibly well, giving you iterative attacks on top of any natural attacks (monk's belt works for this too). Get wilding clasps (4k) from the MIC to use most magic items while in wildshape (cloaks, belts, amulets for certain). Alternately, animals DO have magic item slots, take off essential gear before wildshaping and have them put on you by a party member afterwards.

Not sure what "thorns" is, but I know that wilding clasp (and I'm pretty sure monk's belt as well) is from non-core books, so it's not allowed in our campaign.

The metamagic rods are a good option though. If nothing else, since they can be used by anyone, I can pass it to the party's mage after I use it for greater magic fang.

[eggynack]

The metamagic rods are a good option though. If nothing else, since they can be used by anyone, I can pass it to the party's mage after I use it for greater magic fang.
Yeah, there are far fewer spells worth extending in core, but by the same token there are also far fewer items worth having. Greater magic fang is indeed an obvious choice, but you can also always make something like longstrider last all day, or get a summoned creature to hang around for some extra time, or get some decent duration out of resist energy. It's not like there'd actually be that much to work with if you had access to your items in a wild shape no matter what. I guess you'd want a couple of those +4 items somewhat more, and a monk's belt, and perhaps a helm of telepathy to get something like speech going while wild shape'd, but you're still inevitably tied to your amazing class features far more than any item.

[Curmudgeon]

Not sure what "thorns" is, but I know that wilding clasp (and I'm pretty sure monk's belt as well) is from non-core books, so it's not allowed in our campaign.
Monk's Belt is core: Dungeon Master's Guide, page 248, and in the SRD here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#beltMonks). It's just a piece of rope so you untie it, wild shape, and then retie (or get someone with hands to do it for you).

[StreamOfTheSky]

I think it's important to check: If you're limited to core for options, what about for rules changes? The so-called "polymorph rules" that came out later did nothing to change the actual polymorph spell and instead mostly just gave nonsensical nerfs to wild shape, most notably the stupid rule about all gear melding and becoming non-functional even if the new form could wear the item. Which is the reason for all the silly-sounding (but crucial!) advice of undressing, wild shaping, and being dressed again.
If you're only allowed to use core rules, ask if you can use wild shape as it appears in the Player's Handbook.

[Hiro Quester]

I would forget about power attack. Druid doesn't really get the BAB to power it with. You say you are having trouble hitting to begin with.

I'm playing a gnome Druid (just made 11level) with a one-level monk dip for unarmed strike iterative attacks, followed by all natural attacks as secondary attacks.

On a Druid, in Tiger wildshape, with pounce for full attack on a charge, I have two UAS attacks, then claw claw bite, and grab (monk adds improved grapple+4 to that check) and two rake attacks if any claw or bite hits anfpd the grab is successful.

Our DM was kind/unwise enough to throw at us a bad guy monk with a +3 amulet of mighty fists that I now use (+3 to all UASs and natural attacks when in wildshape).

So I'm putting out a lot of damage per round; even if I don't hit all of those attacks, the number of attacks make up for it.

Adding flame blade on top is nice. I often cast produce flame to add 1d6 fire to unarmed strike attacks.

Me, I'd focus on the metamagic. Though Druids (esp in core) don't get much to blast with, so I haven't been tempted by maximize/empower much. I do a lot more buffing and battlefield control than damage-dealing with spells.

So extend spell for precombat buffs and longer duration BFC is pretty useful. Buffing your strength and con if you have prep time is prudent (though the minutes/level duration is limiting).

[TomeGnome]

I think it's important to check: If you're limited to core for options, what about for rules changes? The so-called "polymorph rules" that came out later did nothing to change the actual polymorph spell and instead mostly just gave nonsensical nerfs to wild shape, most notably the stupid rule about all gear melding and becoming non-functional even if the new form could wear the item. Which is the reason for all the silly-sounding (but crucial!) advice of undressing, wild shaping, and being dressed again.
If you're only allowed to use core rules, ask if you can use wild shape as it appears in the Player's Handbook.

I'm pretty sure he's going to go with the nerfed rules. I have a lot of "would you allow X" discussions with him, and trust me, even something simple like being able to apply maximize/empower to flame blade (even though there's no reason not to allow it) was a hard-won battle. He likes to argue and he likes to say no a lot, so if they errata'd a nerf for wild shape after the fact, he'd probably stick to the errata.

I wasn't aware Monk's belt was core. I couldn't find it in the SRD, which is our primary source for information just for the sake of efficiency. Found it now. Just looking at the wording of it, does gaining "damage of a 5th-level monk" grant you damage as if you had a monk's unarmed strike without taking the feat? Since its bonus is contingent upon being unarmored, I don't think I'm gonna take it. Although it's melded into my body, I technically have +2 wild dragonhide banded mail that gives me a +8, as well as a matching +2 heavy shield. Even with the best of buffs, my Wis is never gonna get high enough to top a +12 to AC.