Yet another "Please help with a gish build" thread

[techsamurai5000]

Hello all,

I've been reading tons of threads and rolling a ton of different ideas around in my head and I've hit a wall.. I think I need some different perspectives.

I'm thinking of a gish in the manner of the Avatar from Ultima 6/7/8.. equal parts fighting and casting. I was thinking of using Valor Bard for the spellcasting part to get a few healing spells since the Avatar can cast healing spells or the Bladesinger for the more versatile spell list.

What do you guys think? Paladin/Valor Bard? Paladin/Bladesinger (not too concerned with the Avatar's race here, so elf is fine)? Something else entirely?

I was thinking a Paladin 2/Bladesinger X would be cool with both Divine Smite and Song of Defense so spell slots could be burned for both damage or defense. But the bard could provide some healing spells and maybe Magical Secrets could fill the gap to compete with the Wizard spell list?

[Spacehamster]

Hello all,

I've been reading tons of threads and rolling a ton of different ideas around in my head and I've hit a wall.. I think I need some different perspectives.

I'm thinking of a gish in the manner of the Avatar from Ultima 6/7/8.. equal parts fighting and casting. I was thinking of using Valor Bard for the spellcasting part to get a few healing spells since the Avatar can cast healing spells or the Bladesinger for the more versatile spell list.

What do you guys think? Paladin/Valor Bard? Paladin/Bladesinger (not too concerned with the Avatar's race here, so elf is fine)? Something else entirely?

I was thinking a Paladin 2/Bladesinger X would be cool with both Divine Smite and Song of Defense so spell slots could be burned for both damage or defense. But the bard could provide some healing spells and maybe Magical Secrets could fill the gap to compete with the Wizard spell list?

Oathbreaker 7 bladelock 13 would be pretty badass too. :)

[techsamurai5000]

Oathbreaker 7 bladelock 13 would be pretty badass too. :)

Yes, that does sound powerful, but I guess I should have mentioned that the Avatar's virtuous worldview is included :tongue:

[Spacehamster]

Yes, that does sound powerful, but I guess I should have mentioned that the Avatar's virtuous worldview is included :tongue:

Ah yes then a fiend lock oathbreaker ain't very fitting. xD

[MrStabby]

What level will you start at?

Cleric 1 (probably life), valor bard X is pretty good as a gish. You get heavy armour, 2 attacks, full spell slot progression, martial weapons and two attacks. You can play this with STR as your main stat, to use the heavy armour but also for polearm mastery or great weapon mastery.

The problem with this is that it doesn't really come online till level 7 as a gish (but is still a VERY effective support caster before then - especially with life cleric for healing boosts (but bear in mind you are unlikely to have very high Wis)).

Magical secrets can further enhance your combat ability - shield can make you tanky, elemental weapon more beaty and spirit guardians a great area of effect dominator that slows hurts and beats hard. Try to select spells that you can either cast out of combat or as a reaction (bonus action if needed) so that casting is not in direct competition with your attacks (so things like counterspell are pretty awesome). Choice of spell may also depend on how you roll for stats. If you have high Cha then you can take spells that use it, if you are using your spells to augment combat abilities you may have a relatively low Cha and want spells that do not use your casting modifier.

If at some point you want more combat and less spells you can dip fighter or paladin (or both). This will give you fighting style, action surge or smites but the versatility of keeping spell progression up to 9th level spells (at level 18 with a level of cleric) is very strong.

[techsamurai5000]

What level will you start at?

Cleric 1 (probably life), valor bard X is pretty good as a gish. You get heavy armour, 2 attacks, full spell slot progression, martial weapons and two attacks. You can play this with STR as your main stat, to use the heavy armour but also for polearm mastery or great weapon mastery.

The problem with this is that it doesn't really come online till level 7 as a gish (but is still a VERY effective support caster before then - especially with life cleric for healing boosts (but bear in mind you are unlikely to have very high Wis)).

Magical secrets can further enhance your combat ability - shield can make you tanky, elemental weapon more beaty and spirit guardians a great area of effect dominator that slows hurts and beats hard. Try to select spells that you can either cast out of combat or as a reaction (bonus action if needed) so that casting is not in direct competition with your attacks (so things like counterspell are pretty awesome). Choice of spell may also depend on how you roll for stats. If you have high Cha then you can take spells that use it, if you are using your spells to augment combat abilities you may have a relatively low Cha and want spells that do not use your casting modifier.

If at some point you want more combat and less spells you can dip fighter or paladin (or both). This will give you fighting style, action surge or smites but the versatility of keeping spell progression up to 9th level spells (at level 18 with a level of cleric) is very strong.

My current character is level 5 and his life expectancy is looking pretty grim, so I'm doing this as a replacement. He'll be whatever level my current guy is when he croaks. If by some miracle he survives until we start over with something else, then I'd be starting at level 3.

This build looks pretty awesome.. which class would you start with first? Cleric for the WIS save proficiency, or Bard for the DEX save?

I also read a thread about an Eldritch Knight 10/ Bladesinger 10 that looks pretty promising. It's main focus was using Eldritch Strike to force disadvantage on the next save on 2-3 enemies using extra attacks, then casting some kind of AoE save or suck/die spell either with Action Surge or just waiting until the next round.

[MrStabby]

Wis save vs dex save is pretty close to me - I think wis is slightly better to have, especially if you are dumping dex.

For me, there are a few reasons to play a Gish - one is style. Another is you like the mechanics of performance enhancing magic for fighters - more interesting than just hitting things with a stick. Finally I think that versatility is important.

I can see an eldritch knight build be good (at high levels where you a) have 10 levels of eldritch knight, b) have additional levels of a caster class so you have spell slots and c) you know some good spells to save against). Personally I prefer eldritch knight with sorc so i can hit things then use a quickened spell. The problem with the EK type build is that you do lose a bit of versatility. You don't get the high level spells that let you do fun and special things and you have to horde your spell slots a lot more. By the time you get your EK to level 10 a pure caster will have a lot more spell slots of higher level to augment their attacks with as well as a lot more out of combat functionality.

This is enhanced by the ability to cast lower level spells out of higher level spell slots. For example, if you were to take it with magical secrets, Armour of Agathys from a lvl 5 slot would probably protect your from 3 attacks (from the kind of things you face at level 11) and would deal 75 damage back to attackers. To me this seems a pretty good deal for what isn't your highest level spell slot, lasts for an hour and doesn't need concentration.

[techsamurai5000]

Wis save vs dex save is pretty close to me - I think wis is slightly better to have, especially if you are dumping dex.

For me, there are a few reasons to play a Gish - one is style. Another is you like the mechanics of performance enhancing magic for fighters - more interesting than just hitting things with a stick. Finally I think that versatility is important.

I can see an eldritch knight build be good (at high levels where you a) have 10 levels of eldritch knight, b) have additional levels of a caster class so you have spell slots and c) you know some good spells to save against). Personally I prefer eldritch knight with sorc so i can hit things then use a quickened spell. The problem with the EK type build is that you do lose a bit of versatility. You don't get the high level spells that let you do fun and special things and you have to horde your spell slots a lot more. By the time you get your EK to level 10 a pure caster will have a lot more spell slots of higher level to augment their attacks with as well as a lot more out of combat functionality.

This is enhanced by the ability to cast lower level spells out of higher level spell slots. For example, if you were to take it with magical secrets, Armour of Agathys from a lvl 5 slot would probably protect your from 3 attacks (from the kind of things you face at level 11) and would deal 75 damage back to attackers. To me this seems a pretty good deal for what isn't your highest level spell slot, lasts for an hour and doesn't need concentration.

I had an idea a while back, but I never really specced it out to see how it would look: Bladelock 5/Lore Bard 15. The whole point of the build was casting a 6th, 7th, and 8th level Armor of Agathys. The Bladelock 5 was for the extra attack and to get Hex, Armor of Agathys, and a few blasting spells so I would have more options with the Lore Bard's Magical Secrets. Cutting Words is pretty nice to have, too.

[MrStabby]

I had an idea a while back, but I never really specced it out to see how it would look: Bladelock 5/Lore Bard 15. The whole point of the build was casting a 6th, 7th, and 8th level Armor of Agathys. The Bladelock 5 was for the extra attack and to get Hex, Armor of Agathys, and a few blasting spells so I would have more options with the Lore Bard's Magical Secrets. Cutting Words is pretty nice to have, too.

I might be tempted to go with bladelock 12, barbarian 2, Champion 6. Especially if you were looking to play at higher levels.

Warlock is a solid caster but drops off at higher levels as it gets fewer "slots" of high level spells and much less flexibility. At level 11 it gets a 3rd per short rest slot and at 12 it adds Cha to damage.

Barbarian rage doubles the duration of armour of agathys from resistance (it isn't concentration). Champion gives you the usual fighter good stuff but the expanded critical works great with barbarian's reckless attack (which works well when AoA actually makes you WANT to be hit). Between spells and action surges and rages you have a lot of different tools/resources to use in combat (most recharging on a short rest). As a side note you become a titanic threat if someone cast haste on you (only one extra attack but with advantage (reckless attack), rage damage, +Cha to damage and probably with a great weapon + solid STR as well). If you pick Half Orc for the race then even more bonus damage from the criticals you are fishing for...

[techsamurai5000]

I might be tempted to go with bladelock 12, barbarian 2, Champion 6. Especially if you were looking to play at higher levels.

Warlock is a solid caster but drops off at higher levels as it gets fewer "slots" of high level spells and much less flexibility. At level 11 it gets a 3rd per short rest slot and at 12 it adds Cha to damage.

Barbarian rage doubles the duration of armour of agathys from resistance (it isn't concentration). Champion gives you the usual fighter good stuff but the expanded critical works great with barbarian's reckless attack (which works well when AoA actually makes you WANT to be hit). Between spells and action surges and rages you have a lot of different tools/resources to use in combat (most recharging on a short rest). As a side note you become a titanic threat if someone cast haste on you (only one extra attack but with advantage (reckless attack), rage damage, +Cha to damage and probably with a great weapon + solid STR as well). If you pick Half Orc for the race then even more bonus damage from the criticals you are fishing for...

Dayum.. that sounds brutal!

[Gignere]

Straight arcana cleric with magic initiate for Shillelagh and good berry. You can gish it by triple stacking wisdom to damage with the new SCAG cantrips, Shillelagh, and wisdom to cantrips damage at high level. You can mimic a double attack with Spiritual Weapon + cantrips

[DracoKnight]

A decent enough Gish build that I'm playing around with

Lore Bard 3/Arcane Trickster 17

Huge advantage of this build: Faerie Fire.

Go Drow, or Tiefling. (Feral or standard works well)

Stats:

Drow: 8/16/12/15/10/14
Feral Tiefling: 8/16/12/14/10/15
Standard Tiefling: 8/15/12/14/10/16

Go Bard at level 1, then after that go Rogue after that. After Bard 1/Rogue 1 go ahead and pick up 2 more levels of Bard and make it Lore Bard 3/Arcane Trickster 17.

It works fairly well, and you're a decent enough Party Face, and you have 2nd level spells by 4th level, which is only a level behind the norm. When you gain the Arcane Trickster Archetype, grab the SCAG cantrips Booming Blade, Greenflame Blade, and Sword Burst.

[Navigator]

If you want to do melee, I think Paladin 6 / Lore Bard 14 is an all-around great build. You get tons of great spell access and rituals from Paladin, insane saves, and ability to throw smites. From Lore bard you're getting 3 rounds of Magical Secrets and instant skill monkey with +3 skills and expertise.

The thing about gish builds that I think most people miss is that there's no reason to make your casting counterpart the "gish" version of the class. As long as your second attack is coming from your martial counterpart, the extra attack you get from the casting counterpart is a dead feature.

[DracoKnight]

A decent enough Gish build that I'm playing around with

Lore Bard 3/Arcane Trickster 17

Huge advantage of this build: Faerie Fire.

Go Drow, or Tiefling. (Feral or standard works well)

Stats:

Drow: 8/16/12/15/10/14
Feral Tiefling: 8/16/12/14/10/15
Standard Tiefling: 8/15/12/14/10/16

Go Bard at level 1, then after that go Rogue after that. After Bard 1/Rogue 1 go ahead and pick up 2 more levels of Bard and make it Lore Bard 3/Arcane Trickster 17.

It works fairly well, and you're a decent enough Party Face, and you have 2nd level spells by 4th level, which is only a level behind the norm. When you gain the Arcane Trickster Archetype, grab the SCAG cantrips Booming Blade, Greenflame Blade, and Sword Burst.

Actually. Ignore the bold. Go Rogue 1/Bard 3/Arcane Trickster 16. This way you get Dexterity saving throws :D

[Tanarii]

The thing about gish builds that I think most people miss is that there's no reason to make your casting counterpart the "gish" version of the class. As long as your second attack is coming from your martial counterpart, the extra attack you get from the casting counterpart is a dead feature.
Absolutely agree. To me, one part of a the GISH need to be the Extra Attack, and the other shouldn't. I generally avoid Builds combining Valor Bard / Bladelock with Fighter / Paladin / Ranger for exactly that reason. Or Bladelock with any Martial weapon prof granting class. Or Valor Bard with Martial or Armor granting classes. Why waste the whole point of your class feature, which is to be GISHy without needing to combine with Extra Attack, or needing another source of Martial/Armor?

Ditto for Bladesinger now, although I haven't yet actually created any building using it yet.

[djreynolds]

Absolutely agree. To me, one part of a the GISH need to be the Extra Attack, and the other shouldn't. I generally avoid Builds combining Valor Bard / Bladelock with Fighter / Paladin / Ranger for exactly that reason. Or Bladelock with any Martial weapon prof granting class. Or Valor Bard with Martial or Armor granting classes. Why waste the whole point of your class feature, which is to be GISHy without needing to combine with Extra Attack, or needing another source of Martial/Armor?

Ditto for Bladesinger now, although I haven't yet actually created any building using it yet.

I believ it was Mr Cnagy, who brought up a good point about certain class features in his 10 EK/10 BS. Its not the extra attack but disadvantage you want from EK and the defense of the BS

[Tanarii]

Meh. I'm not that fond of feature-cherry-picking MC builds. Especially ones that throw away the entire benefit for a level gained. But each unto their own.