No Rest For The Wicked, Or Anyone For That Matter

[DiscipleofBob]

I've had the opportunity to play 5e for a few levels now, and in my personal experience, getting even a short rest is often near impossible, much less a long one.

Right now the party's in a large, undead tomb. How large?

Well, it took two encounters to get inside the tomb, we managed to explore one hallway and one corridor and in the process go through three more encounters, then, since my character's all out of rages and has lost half his max HP to Wights, and the rest of the party is about out of spells, we vote to leave, but somehow get into two MORE encounters on the way out.

A short rest is hard enough with the possibility of some kind of incorporeal undead showing up while we're recovering. A long rest is impossible without leaving the entire area. And the GM has made it clear that due to being and undead tomb, most of the encounters reset, or replaced by other more undead. I'm starting to feel like a 3.5 caster with how little progress we can make without resting.

For a game supposedly made for dungeon crawling among other things, it seems near impossible to get any rests, short or long.

3.5 had stuff like Rope Trick. Is there anything similarly reliable in 5e? How does your adventuring party deal with sch large expeditions?

[Hudsonian]

3.5 had stuff like Rope Trick. Is there anything similarly reliable in 5e? How does your adventuring party deal with sch large expeditions?

Well, there is Rope Trick...

Is there not a room where you could barricade the door? Or a place you could cast hallucinatory terrain? I would say that in 5e rests ARE supposed to be harder to come by, but that a well designed dungeon would have a cellar, crypt, or dead end hall that, once cleared of beasties, would make for a decent short rest. At least one of which could be long rests. I would also say that any repeat encounters from walking through a previously cleared section of a dungeon (excluding roaming encounters) would need to be a little lower on the difficulty chart.

Other options for creating a place to rest are Leomunds Hut, Portable hole, or a magic carpet near the ceiling.

What level is the party?

[E’Tallitnics]

5e has Rope Trick (PH, p.272) and it'll give 8 medium sized creatures 1h rest.

[DireSickFish]

Our group has never had problems finding short rests when we need them. Taking a long rest sometimes would make an opportunity go by us.

It sounds like your DM is really being unforgiving with resting. If it's just a matter of HP then stock up on healing potions and chug those along with short resting. Otherwise the only smart option is to leave the tomb and long rest, perhaps multiple times if it is that punishing.

If it becomes clear that the majority of the undead are re-setting or being replaced you will have to consider your options. Either keep trying to make progress in it slowly trying to get 1 or 2 rooms deeper every time. If he stops giving combat xp for the fights he's reset then you may need to leave the tomb and come back later when you're a higher level.

If he admonishes you for being to cautious let him know that you have to be that cautious because of how dangerous his world is with how hard it is to long and short rest. If you could reliable make safe areas or the tomb fights not so hard you wouldn't need to be as careful. Running a grueling game can be fun but it inspires cautious play and cautious players not daring heroes that take big risks.

[Slipperychicken]

Yeah, DMs can get pretty uppity about the idea of PCs resting in a dungeon, despite the game mechanics heavily encouraging this. In my opinion, it's a problem with both the pseudo-Vancian resource system, and of making short rests way too long -they changed it from 5 minutes to an hour at the last minute in development. Things that recharge on short rests are typically things intended to be "encounter powers" used every fight.



If he admonishes you for being to cautious let him know that you have to be that cautious because of how dangerous his world is with how hard it is to long and short rest. If you could reliable make safe areas or the tomb fights not so hard you wouldn't need to be as careful. Running a grueling game can be fun but it inspires cautious play and cautious players not daring heroes that take big risks.

As a rule of thumb, never let your DM goad you into being reckless. He might call you names, but you'll be the one still alive at the end of the day.

[Desamir]

Leomund's Tiny Hut guarantees 8 hours of rest, as a ritual.

[Slipperychicken]

Leomund's Tiny Hut guarantees 8 hours of rest, as a ritual.

Incorporeals and burrowers could just come up through the floor.

[Forum Explorer]

Sounds like a DM problem. Have a talk with him, and if he's wanting a faster game, see if he'll implement the shorter rests variant.




Incorporeals and burrowers could just come up through the floor.

See DM problem.

[DiscipleofBob]

We're level 4 at the moment, and the whole incorporeal undead thing makes it feasibly impossible to rest. I've suggested keeping watch in a side room, but the GM has made it abundantly clear that if we try to rest here, we're going to get ambushed. And that if we leave to take a rest where there aren't undead, the undead we've killed will come back.

[WickerNipple]

We're level 4 at the moment, and the whole incorporeal undead thing makes it feasibly impossible to rest. I've suggested keeping watch in a side room, but the GM has made it abundantly clear that if we try to rest here, we're going to get ambushed. And that if we leave to take a rest where there aren't undead, the undead we've killed will come back.

Then leave and don't come back.

"We're not ready for this place."

[DireSickFish]

Then leave and don't come back.

"We're not ready for this place."

Best advice.

[Temperjoke]

Yeah, I'd say it's time to cut your losses, and if your DM has a problem with it, then it might be time to consider a new DM.

[DiscipleofBob]

Then leave and don't come back.

"We're not ready for this place."

Problem 1: we already used that argument for the last dungeon, citing that underwater breathing would be necessary but too expensive at our level.

Problem 2: one of the players is on hiatus, and to explain his character's absence, his character saw something and ran off alone into the labyrinth. IC we'd really like to rescue either him or his body to rez.

[Temperjoke]

Problem 1: we already used that argument for the last dungeon, citing that underwater breathing would be necessary but too expensive at our level.

Problem 2: one of the players is on hiatus, and to explain his character's absence, his character saw something and ran off alone into the labyrinth. IC we'd really like to rescue either him or his body to rez.

Well, I hope you have more luck with your new characters then.

[WickerNipple]

Problem 1: we already used that argument for the last dungeon, citing that underwater breathing would be necessary but too expensive at our level.

Problem 2: one of the players is on hiatus, and to explain his character's absence, his character saw something and ran off alone into the labyrinth. IC we'd really like to rescue either him or his body to rez.

1) Not sure I understand. Used that argument to who?

2) Well that is a bit more problematic if you take absence excuses literally. I'd never punish a player for a random hand-waving for why they were absent.

[tsotate]

Problem 1: we already used that argument for the last dungeon, citing that underwater breathing would be necessary but too expensive at our level.

Problem 2: one of the players is on hiatus, and to explain his character's absence, his character saw something and ran off alone into the labyrinth. IC we'd really like to rescue either him or his body to rez.

1. If you keep using it, maybe he'll eventually get the point.

2. Rez is really not practical at your level, and he's alone in a dungeon in which there is (aparently) neither room nor moment of safety. Apologize that the jerk DM killed his character while he was gone, and hope he enjoys his new one.

[Flashy]

Problem 2: one of the players is on hiatus, and to explain his character's absence, his character saw something and ran off alone into the labyrinth. IC we'd really like to rescue either him or his body to rez.

If this tomb is this awash in eternally respawning undead why isn't your friend lying dead in one of the early rooms? He sprinted past all the horrors but they attack all you? The incorporeal undead don't attack him when he tries to rest? This scenario your DM has set up makes no sense.

Also, Raise Dead has a 10 day limit on how recently the corpse can have died. If you can't get to him in 10 days I'd just call it quits, since it's not like you're high enough level to cast it anyway.

[WickerNipple]

1. Oh, I get it. You mean you're arguing with the DM for why your party can't do his content? Haha. Sorry. That's terribly depressing.

Have you played with this guy before? It sounds to me like one of two things is going on here: a) he doesn't really understand 5e mechanics and how one writes encounters for 5e or b) he just wants you all to die.

[Kane0]

Talk to your DM. The scenario you describe is a no-win for you if you want to follow this path. Its entirely possible that he's just not aware of how resting works and fits together with everything else as a whole.

He needs to know you must rest, so that might mean making short rests take less time or laying off the surefire random encounters when you attempt a rest or repopulating when you leave.
If he isn't going to change tact, you need to change yours. Perhaps you can avoid the undead instead of fighting through them, or find/make safe havens as you progress. Or you can leave and come back with hired reinforcements, a squad of mercenary clerics/paladins should make short work of most appropriate undead encounters. Then you can find your friend and never return again.

Also I'm not seeing reason 1 nor 2 as much of a problem
1: This is solid reasoning, and nothing forbids you to use it again. Characters will usually have self preservation instincts, you can't penalize someone for recognizing when a situation is beyond them.

2: This is a problem only for that character, and possibly the DM when he returns. My group would have no issue letting him go, and though we wish him the best we know that it's not our fault nor decision that he did what he did. His fate is his own, you do what you can for him but you can draw the line where you please. The DM is the one that has to come up with what happens next.

[Gignere]

Sounds like an adversarial DM that wants to win against the PCs. That is never good unless you knew that this was the style of game he was planning to run. Sometime a survivor type hardcore dungeon is just what one needs, but if the DM did not communicate this upfront, he is just being a jerk.

[Mellack]

Sounds like your DM has a different expectation of how the game should run than 5e rules. You are expected to get 2-3 short rests in a 6-8 encounter day. Otherwise many classes will be out of resources, and you are seeing how much harder that makes things. Try explaining that to the DM. If they are not willing to make changes, then retreat and don't go back into that dungeon, it is death. Say sorry about the lost guy, but getting yourselves dead too will not help. Perhaps point out that under these rest (or lack of it) conditions you are going to have to fight dramatically lower level encounters. Try asking around if there are any small kobold lairs nearby.

[Kane0]

Try asking around if there are any small kobold lairs nearby.

Probably best not to specify Kobolds. Wouldnt want to risk a Tucker's.

[Malifice]

Well, there is Rope Trick...

Is there not a room where you could barricade the door? Or a place you could cast hallucinatory terrain? I would say that in 5e rests ARE supposed to be harder to come by, but that a well designed dungeon would have a cellar, crypt, or dead end hall that, once cleared of beasties, would make for a decent short rest. At least one of which could be long rests. I would also say that any repeat encounters from walking through a previously cleared section of a dungeon (excluding roaming encounters) would need to be a little lower on the difficulty chart.

Other options for creating a place to rest are Leomunds Hut, Portable hole, or a magic carpet near the ceiling.

What level is the party?

How many short rests did you get during those 7 encounters?

[DiscipleofBob]

One short rest, after the second encounter, before advancing down into the catacombs. The two encounters were one outside the temple, one inside the chapel but before the locked door that led down into the catacombs. Inside was where I'm having trouble.

There was a side room in the chapel I suggested we hole up in to get rests, but I was shut down by the rest of the party who brought up the possibility of incorporeal undead or getting a horde of various undead beating down the door.

While I appreciate the sentiments, I didn't really come here to complain about my GM or the structure of the dungeons, because, honestly, it seems like it's a problem that's more or less in every edition so I don't want to seem like I'm singling out 5e or the GM's campaign, which honestly isn't all that bad, I just have a few gripes with it. This is the GM's first 5e game as well, so pretty much everyone's on a learning curve.

In 3.5, the casters would run out of spells, but they'd often get wands to back up their spells. And the rest of the party could do their tricks all day long, while not as impressive as any spells, they could at least protect the casters.

4e had its problems, but at least everyone's powers were very clearly defined as meant for once every encounter or once every day. No one got short-changed based on how many rests you got.

5e fixed some things with this problem, like giving casters cantrips they can cast all day long, but it seems like it went in the other direction as well by making a lot of classes dependent on rests either short or long. And unlike in 4e, where the short rests were meant to be literally between every encounter, short rests are now an hour long, which starts to break my suspension in disbelief. "Comrades! Our companion is missing or worse, possibly deceased, and we must hurry to find him or at least recover his body from the horrors of this undead cesspool! Time is of the essence! But first, tea!" I'm not saying this problem is unique to 5th edition, but it does seem to be more prevalent. I've played Fighters and tanky classes in other editions, but this is the first campaign where I have to practically beg the rest of my party to try and rest somewhere so I can continue tanking for them.

I also know that there's variant rules for longer or shorter rest requirements in the DMG, but since I'm not the GM, my primary concern is finding a safe way for me and the rest of the party to get their necessary potty breaks and beauty sleep so I can continue to do my job and take all the damage so everyone else can brag about how none of the enemies can ever hit them, mostly because I do everything I can to convince them to swing at me instead.

Also, I looked up Rope Trick, which while I'm glad they ported over, seems to have been nerfed from previous editions. I remember it lasting long enough in 3.5 for a full extended rest (though it's been a while, and back then I used to play with a lot of people who'd conveniently "misread" things), while 5e Rope Trick only lasts for an hour. Good enough for a short rest I guess. I suppose it's asking too much for there to be a magical solution to the long rest in the dungeon problem at this level.

[Gignere]

This is a GM issue not edition issue. The GM should want players to succeed and if the players had run out of resources already I will instantly adlib a rest area or some way for the PCs to get a long rest. I will not be beholden to my plans of they need to kill 6 encounters for a long rest or whatever had been written. I have given long rests even after just one supposedly easy encounter because the dice gods cursed my players. This is an rpg with a heavy RNG element, the DM need to be flexible.

[Kane0]

Hold the phone.

1. The party brought up the possibility of resting not being safe enough to try, and the DM said nothing one way or the other?
2. You are a level 4 fighter? What is your equipment?

1. If it was only your party voicing this, then let them carry on and learn why rests are needed. Hit dice and per rest abilities are there for a reason, if you are just getting into 5e you might be realizing things they have not yet, so let them learn.
2. Your AC should be decent enough to keep you alive as much as anyone else. If you are running low on HP and everyone else is still bragging switch to a ranged weapon and let someone else take some hits, that way you dont end up with them panicking when you go down and everybody learns a little bit about teamwork and resting to get HP and action surge / second wind back.

My first 5e game featured a crypt too. A banshee nearly wiped us out and after a rest following that brush with death we were far more careful. We got through half a dozen more encounters unscathed but whittled of spells and abilities before coming up against 4 spectres and 2 wraiths. That was pretty harrowing for us at level 6, and for half the fight the DM forgot they could go through walls!
So its not that bad, have a crack at it and everybody will be better for the experience.

[DiscipleofBob]

Hold the phone.

1. The party brought up the possibility of resting not being safe enough to try, and the DM said nothing one way or the other?
2. You are a level 4 fighter? What is your equipment?

1. If it was only your party voicing this, then let them carry on and learn why rests are needed. Hit dice and per rest abilities are there for a reason, if you are just getting into 5e you might be realizing things they have not yet, so let them learn.
2. Your AC should be decent enough to keep you alive as much as anyone else. If you are running low on HP and everyone else is still bragging switch to a ranged weapon and let someone else take some hits, that way you dont end up with them panicking when you go down and everybody learns a little bit about teamwork and resting to get HP and action surge / second wind back.

My first 5e game featured a crypt too. A banshee nearly wiped us out and after a rest following that brush with death we were far more careful. We got through half a dozen more encounters unscathed but whittled of spells and abilities before coming up against 4 spectres and 2 wraiths. That was pretty harrowing for us at level 6, and for half the fight the DM forgot they could go through walls!
So its not that bad, have a crack at it and everybody will be better for the experience.

1. In the context of the game, we had already faced several incorporeal undead, the GM only mentioned that more undead come out at night and similar details, and the rest of the party was divided between just pressing on and leaving the area entirely. I was the only one to suggest finding a place in the temple to hole up and keep watch and was summarily ignored. I'm the little brother of the GM and newcomer to this group, so I'm used to that sort of thing.
2. Minotaur Barbarian. No armor. Magical shield and a magical trident for things that my horns can't actually hurt. No armor because, well, Barbarian. Though I took the return trip to town to change to an alt character more suited for this adventure: Paladin of Devotion. Haven't gotten a chance to shine with him yet (literally) mostly because I've seen roughly how large the map for this dungeon is and know I have limited spell slots to spend on smites.

This isn't the first time I've run out of rages and actually had to do stuff other than wade into the middle of combat. Before when we were just fighting goblins, I would sometimes have to back up into cover, use ranged weapons, or run in, hit something and run back into cover. I was chided in character and out of character for being a coward in the face of lowly goblins. Half the party members nearly died. No one's outlook changed.

[Kane0]

1. Sucks man, don't take it personally. You can't be held responsible for their actions.
2. Well played, just keep doing that. Maybe some day they'll appreciate your efforts, until then sit in humble dignity knowing you are a more mature player than some others at the table.

Seems you're doing fine, keep up the good work.

[Malifice]

One short rest, after the second encounter, before advancing down into the catacombs. The two encounters were one outside the temple, one inside the chapel but before the locked door that led down into the catacombs. Inside was where I'm having trouble.

There was a side room in the chapel I suggested we hole up in to get rests, but I was shut down by the rest of the party who brought up the possibility of incorporeal undead or getting a horde of various undead beating down the door.

While I appreciate the sentiments, I didn't really come here to complain about my GM or the structure of the dungeons, because, honestly, it seems like it's a problem that's more or less in every edition so I don't want to seem like I'm singling out 5e or the GM's campaign, which honestly isn't all that bad, I just have a few gripes with it. This is the GM's first 5e game as well, so pretty much everyone's on a learning curve.

In 3.5, the casters would run out of spells, but they'd often get wands to back up their spells. And the rest of the party could do their tricks all day long, while not as impressive as any spells, they could at least protect the casters.

4e had its problems, but at least everyone's powers were very clearly defined as meant for once every encounter or once every day. No one got short-changed based on how many rests you got.

5e fixed some things with this problem, like giving casters cantrips they can cast all day long, but it seems like it went in the other direction as well by making a lot of classes dependent on rests either short or long. And unlike in 4e, where the short rests were meant to be literally between every encounter, short rests are now an hour long, which starts to break my suspension in disbelief. "Comrades! Our companion is missing or worse, possibly deceased, and we must hurry to find him or at least recover his body from the horrors of this undead cesspool! Time is of the essence! But first, tea!" I'm not saying this problem is unique to 5th edition, but it does seem to be more prevalent. I've played Fighters and tanky classes in other editions, but this is the first campaign where I have to practically beg the rest of my party to try and rest somewhere so I can continue tanking for them.

I also know that there's variant rules for longer or shorter rest requirements in the DMG, but since I'm not the GM, my primary concern is finding a safe way for me and the rest of the party to get their necessary potty breaks and beauty sleep so I can continue to do my job and take all the damage so everyone else can brag about how none of the enemies can ever hit them, mostly because I do everything I can to convince them to swing at me instead.

Also, I looked up Rope Trick, which while I'm glad they ported over, seems to have been nerfed from previous editions. I remember it lasting long enough in 3.5 for a full extended rest (though it's been a while, and back then I used to play with a lot of people who'd conveniently "misread" things), while 5e Rope Trick only lasts for an hour. Good enough for a short rest I guess. I suppose it's asking too much for there to be a magical solution to the long rest in the dungeon problem at this level.

Your expected adventuring day (the number of encounters between long rests) is 6-8 so a 7 encounter day is pretty standard.

One short rest is too little. You should have had another one in there (2 total) but from what you wrote it sounds like that was player driven and not your DMs fault.

You're not supposed to rage every encounter. Every second one at low to mid level at best.

[DiscipleofBob]

1. Sucks man, don't take it personally. You can't be held responsible for their actions.
2. Well played, just keep doing that. Maybe some day they'll appreciate your efforts, until then sit in humble dignity knowing you are a more mature player than some others at the table.

Seems you're doing fine, keep up the good work.

Nah, I don't take it personally. I kind of expected it when I joined the game. Little brother syndrome and all. I'm just trying to figure out to handle extended dungeon crawls for this and future games. I haven't been in many games in any editions with designated safe areas outside of video games with save points. :smallsmile:

[Hudsonian]

Sounds like it's going to be a hard dungeon. You should come back to this thread after next session and tell us what happens if you went just a little bit further into the dungeon. I say if you you go two more encounters INTO the dungeon and there isn't some sort of hallowed altar to rest at. I'd say the DM needs to rework his map, OR you need to find a different path through the dungeon.

There have been several times that I've had a dungeon that seems had at face value, but is much easier if you invest some effort into non combat/imaginative ways of solving problems. Or at least asked good questions about the environment.

Let us know.

[Malifice]

Nah, I don't take it personally. I kind of expected it when I joined the game. Little brother syndrome and all. I'm just trying to figure out to handle extended dungeon crawls for this and future games. I haven't been in many games in any editions with designated safe areas outside of video games with save points. :smallsmile:

Plan for around 2-3 combats per short rest and about 2-3 such blocks during the day. Around 7 encounters per day and 2 short rests.

Rage only when absolutely needed - every second encounter on average. Work with your party and manage resources along that paradigm. Make sure the casters don't nova on encounter 1 leaving you to do the heavy lifting.

[Temperjoke]

Well, sounds like the best way for everyone to learn is for a TPK, so they figure out why they ran out of resources. Of course, they'll probably start accusing each other of screwing up or being bad and won't actually learn anything.

[Sigreid]

Well, sounds like the best way for everyone to learn is for a TPK, so they figure out why they ran out of resources. Of course, they'll probably start accusing each other of screwing up or being bad and won't actually learn anything.

Or, the party may learn how and where they can set up for a short break in hostile territory. If there's no place to rest, see if you can make one via barred doors, camouflage, a few traps of your own, playing dead at the bottom of a pit...whatever.

[Pex]

Tell the DM the players want rests. If the DM refuses, the players rest at their own homes instead.

[Mellack]

Or, the party may learn how and where they can set up for a short break in hostile territory. If there's no place to rest, see if you can make one via barred doors, camouflage, a few traps of your own, playing dead at the bottom of a pit...whatever.

While that sort of thing would normally work, the OP specifically mentioned incorporeal undead, which are rather hard to block out.

[Sigreid]

While that sort of thing would normally work, the OP specifically mentioned incorporeal undead, which are rather hard to block out.

Fair enough, but I interpreted the thread as him having running issue with no rests with that DM. Personally, I never plan resting points for my party when I Dm but they're a clever lot and usually come up with something.

[DiscipleofBob]

I try not to rage every combat. Unfortunately, with very few exceptions, encounters can get deadly very fast.

Admittedly, some encounters in the past I've wasted a rage overestimating an encounter, or underestimating my ability to maintain it when enemies are isolated enough.

[Tallis]

5e fixed some things with this problem, like giving casters cantrips they can cast all day long, but it seems like it went in the other direction as well by making a lot of classes dependent on rests either short or long

Exactly. The rests are built into the system. As you said this is the DM's first 5e campaign so maybe he hasn't quite got it figured out yet but allowing opportunities to rest is necessary for the PCs to function as intended (unless his intention is to run survival horror, in which case run away or just enjoy the ride and your hopefully entertaining death)


short rests are now an hour long, which starts to break my suspension in disbelief. "Comrades! Our companion is missing or worse, possibly deceased, and we must hurry to find him or at least recover his body from the horrors of this undead cesspool! Time is of the essence! But first, tea!"

I would argue that it's actually more realistic. Hardcore fighting is tiring. In real life you can run on adrenaline for a while but you will have to stop and rest; bind you wounds, catch your breath and restore your energy before continuing.

Maybe the DM is expecting you to preserve your resources more to keep going. You shouldn't have to go all out every encounter. Could you have handled those encounters using less of your consumable resources?

I will say that making the dungeon respawn 100% if you leave and come back is probably a bit much. I could see shuffling things around to cover losses but that should take something away from other parts of the dungeon. If everything just goes back to the beginning it sounds like it's created to be an unbeatable dungeon until you get higher level.

Talk to the DM maybe you can diplomatically point out something he's missed about the way this edition works with resting.

[Raphite1]

And unlike in 4e, where the short rests were meant to be literally between every encounter, short rests are now an hour long, which starts to break my suspension in disbelief. "Comrades! Our companion is missing or worse, possibly deceased, and we must hurry to find him or at least recover his body from the horrors of this undead cesspool! Time is of the essence! But first, tea!"

A short rest isn't tea time or anything like it. The last encounter you faced was probably more violent and traumatic than anything that most people go through in a lifetime, and you've probably already done several that day. Your short rest is you trying to stay the f*&$# alive and muster some energy to keep on doing the impossible.

Maybe your DM isn't building rest opportunities appropriately. Maybe you and/or the other players just aren't figuring out how to take or create those opportunities. In either case, for the DM and for the players, the solution for everyone is to just keep doing your best and playing through the game, and learning and adapting when things go badly.

[Gignere]

Nah, I don't take it personally. I kind of expected it when I joined the game. Little brother syndrome and all. I'm just trying to figure out to handle extended dungeon crawls for this and future games. I haven't been in many games in any editions with designated safe areas outside of video games with save points. :smallsmile:

Every published adventure, largish "dungeons" has them. Most of them can't be used without some sort of player fortification but they exist. I also don't recall any game I played in that PCs retreating and resting is not an option.

Like I said if my group is running out of resource, even due to poor management, bad luck, or whatever reason I take it as my responsibility as GM to create an area or telegraph the threats so retreating may seem like a good option. Even in a crypt with incorporeal undead, I will just create a room that is sanctified, hallow or otherwise protected from incorporeal. It could be something as simple as a good ghost hanging around his own tomb defending his area from the evil spirits. Or maybe a small shrine area where if the PCs clean the statue to a god and pay their respects the shrine regains a small part of its power before it got corrupted. These are cool interesting exploration RPing opportunities that can break the monotony of a dungeon and provide opportunities for rest. Maybe you find your companion in one of these safe areas just hiding out. Give suggestions and feedback to your GM, we are human too and do and find inspiration and learn from our players.

[DiscipleofBob]

See, I still disagree on the concept that dungeons *have* to be built to accommodate the resting needs of 4 - 5 adventurers, or that the only way for characters to reliably get back resources is to sleep for 8 hours. It's something in D&D that has always broken my suspension of disbelief, but it seems like in 5e it's a more prevalent problem than 3.5 or 4e. I remember one 3.5 game I was in a long time ago where the group was on the run from some TPK-ing monstrosity, on q chase that took multiple days, and while the rest of the party force marched as fast as we could, we had to fashion a hammock for the caster so he could sleep for 8 hours of the march and regain used of Expeditious Retreat. It felt just as silly then as it does now.

But regardless of my feelings on these subjects, they exist in 5e, and since I'm not the GM I can't make alterations to the rules/dungeons. In-Character I should probably have insisted on pressing on to find our friend regardless of my being low on everything: no rages, lost half my max HP to wights, lost half my HP beyond that, most of the casters out of spell slots, and we've explored one small hallway, which is, purely guessing since most of the map was still under fog of war, maybe a tenth of the map? And that's not including the possibility of multiple levels. Out Of Character I knew that if we ventured further someone, most likely me, would have died, and if someone other than me died, I would've gotten flak for not doing my duty on the front lines. Out Of Character I also knew that the whole "party member just leaves further into the dungeon with no explanation and no way for the multiple trackers in the group to follow him" stank to Mount Celestia of "this character's gone, either dead or somehow escaped on his own, no matter what you do In-Character."

[MrStabby]

There are a couple of interpretations to this, depending on how smart your DM is.

1) He is inexperienced and has cocked up

2) He is facing the party with a tough challenge to get them to think outside of their normal way of doing things. If this is the case he may have set it up to allow characters with more of an out of combat focus to shine - stealth and scouting, investigations of the rooms, knowledge checks etc. may be the way forwards. If your objective is to complete a rescue mission then don't feel the need to fight every undead along the way. Find alternative routes that don't require limited resources.

Just because you cant keep fighting and cant rest doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to complete your quest.

[DanyBallon]

I find the need to rest far less silly than going through encounters after encounters and still be fresh as a rose. Nobody can't go on for ever without needing a break, and even then a break won't resplenish you fully, only a night of sleep (even a short one) will. The short/long rest mechanic reflect this pretty well, you may push forward if you want but at some time you'll need to catch your breath, eat a snack, drink some water (this is a short rest), this will give you a boost to continue, but in the long run you'll need to stop and sleep, or you'll just fall. The game is design for about 2 short rest and 1 long rest per day, but in a rescue scenario, the players may want to take 3-4 short rest (those don't absolutely need to be 1h rest either), and take a long rest when they're done. Doing so is possible, but some classes may end up laking some abilities by the end of the day, just as in every day life some jobs need to take only a short break to clrear their mind before continuing working, while some other jobs, need a full night of rest to be effective, and if pushed, than can go forward, but just won't be as effective until they have a full night of sleep.

[Inglorin]

See, I still disagree on the concept that dungeons *have* to be built to accommodate the resting needs of 4 - 5 adventurers, or that the only way for characters to reliably get back resources is to sleep for 8 hours.

That's what short rests are for. You don't have to get a long rest whenever you need them. You only get one once every 24 hours anyway. Short Rests, on the other hand, replenish plenty of resources. You can use Hit Dice, Fighters regain Second Wind & Action Surge, Wizard at least get back SOME spell slots via Arcane Recovery, Warlocks regains most of their stuff, .... And, as others have said, a 60 minute rest isn't shattering my suspension of disbelief. Sometimes you just HAVE to take a break.


I remember one 3.5 game I was in a long time ago where the group was on the run from some TPK-ing monstrosity, on q chase that took multiple days, and while the rest of the party force marched as fast as we could, we had to fashion a hammock for the caster so he could sleep for 8 hours of the march and regain used of Expeditious Retreat. It felt just as silly then as it does now.

Yeah. That's pretty silly.

[kaoskonfety]

Infinite re-spawning, undead tomb? So much so that sleeping after clearing a wing renders progress useless?

*clears throat*

EXP mine. Take a PILE of short forays into the dungeon under the pretence/reason of trying to save your buddy with the REAL OOC goal "get EXP, run (mostly) out of resources, retreat, rest, get MORE EXP's, repeat till adventure is trivial". And maybe find the dudes corpse before spiders move in... cause he's dead, or un-dead or is actually the necromancer re-summoning all the undead.

**edit - I've done similar in the past but these are places the players avoid unless a plot hook drags them in. Usually some flavour of "we have discovered the source of the undead curse and need you to clear the way for the McGuffins destruction for the good of the land" or a more general survival fetch quest.

[DiscipleofBob]

Infinite re-spawning, undead tomb? So much so that sleeping after clearing a wing renders progress useless?

*clears throat*

EXP mine. Take a PILE of short forays into the dungeon under the pretence/reason of trying to save your buddy with the REAL OOC goal "get EXP, run (mostly) out of resources, retreat, rest, get MORE EXP's, repeat till adventure is trivial". And maybe find the dudes corpse before spiders move in... cause he's dead, or un-dead or is actually the necromancer re-summoning all the undead.

**edit - I've done similar in the past but these are places the players avoid unless a plot hook drags them in. Usually some flavour of "we have discovered the source of the undead curse and need you to clear the way for the McGuffins destruction for the good of the land" or a more general survival fetch quest.

Nope.

XP in this game is based off of story progress and milestones. We've been told straight up we won't level until we finish the dungeon.

[kaoskonfety]

Nope.

XP in this game is based off of story progress and milestones. We've been told straight up we won't level until we finish the dungeon.

Hilarious. Usually I use story advancement when combat encounters are not one of the games cornerstones (as appears to be here).

So 'finishing the dungeon' by saying "nope, its better than us" and hitting a tavern for some mercenary work isn't an option I take it?

Sell your weapons, start a farm, Get married, have kids, grow old, die of old age. Win?

If you've got long term then...
Maybe dismantle the f-ing thing with picks and shovels, carting off the stone till the place is just a big hole?
Defend a hired priest to sanctify the place, room by room? Do merc jobs in between to pay the bills?

For constructive "in play short term" advise, try to figure out where the bastards are coming from with some sneak monkeys - I'd assume this is the intended "final goal" along with "stop the re-spawner". Either this is an IMPRESSIVE near divine curse drawing in all the ghosts and ghoulies from a massive area, and reanimating them, your goal is to find the root cause and resolve it or its an evil McGuffin you need to hit with a hammer - the McGuffin may be a necromancer. Hit, with, hammer.

[Temperjoke]

Nope.

XP in this game is based off of story progress and milestones. We've been told straight up we won't level until we finish the dungeon.

Well, good luck with your new characters. You've decided that you have to finish this dungeon, you refuse to take the short rests that are a built-in requirement to the game, and your group's dynamic puts you in the position that no matter what happens, you're probably going to be accused of being a bad player.

[Alejandro]

Wow.

On one hand, we have a GM that either is honestly inexperienced with 5e (even though it's very simple to run) and has just royally screwed up and doesn't want to admit it for some reason. Or on the other, we just have a crap GM/personality that sees the players and their characters as adversarial.

Then we have the PCs, throwing themselves at this unconquerable dungeon again and again, trying to rescue a PC who is trapped in there by no fault of the player themselves; the GM put them there simply because that player wasn't at a session. There are downtime activities, GM... And to top it off, the players are told they can't gain a level until they finish said dungeon, despite not being high enough level to finish said dungeon, and they cannot even slowly grind through it via resting.

Here's my suggestion.

1. Give the PC in there up for lost, for now.
2. Leave the dungeon. Go and find a relatively large temple that has a cleric whom can cast Hallow. Explain about this horrifying Hell on earth that is mercilessly spawning undead of many nasty varieties. Any honest good temple will want to help stop such a horrifying undead generator.
3. Escort the cleric (maybe with some other temple guardians) to this dungeon's entrance, and protect him for the 24 hours it will take to cast Hallow. It costs 1000 GP to cast, the temple might cover it, but if not, pool your party's resources to help.
4. With the Hallow centered right at the entrance to the dungeon, you now have some distance within you can proceed, and undead (among some other things) cannot approach you at all. Fill it with daylight for good measure. Rest in this area as needed as you explore. If you can persuade the cleric to do so, and the temple has the funds for it, have the cleric progressively Hallow more ground deeper and deeper into the dungeon, until the undead have nowhere to go and can finally be wiped out.
5. If you find your friend's corpse or animated body, see if they will Raise Dead for you.

Bonus step: This probably won't work, but see if you can trick the GM into letting the player whose PC is lost in the dungeon play a cleric NPC that is strong enough to cast Hallow. Don't mention said plan beforehand.

[mephnick]

Nope.

XP in this game is based off of story progress and milestones. We've been told straight up we won't level until we finish the dungeon.

That's...not really how milestone XP works.

The DM can change the milestone. You skip that dungeon and head off on the next adventure and you level once you do something important.

You don't use milestones to blackmail your players to run your ****ty content.

[PoeticDwarf]

I've had the opportunity to play 5e for a few levels now, and in my personal experience, getting even a short rest is often near impossible, much less a long one.

Right now the party's in a large, undead tomb. How large?

Well, it took two encounters to get inside the tomb, we managed to explore one hallway and one corridor and in the process go through three more encounters, then, since my character's all out of rages and has lost half his max HP to Wights, and the rest of the party is about out of spells, we vote to leave, but somehow get into two MORE encounters on the way out.

A short rest is hard enough with the possibility of some kind of incorporeal undead showing up while we're recovering. A long rest is impossible without leaving the entire area. And the GM has made it clear that due to being and undead tomb, most of the encounters reset, or replaced by other more undead. I'm starting to feel like a 3.5 caster with how little progress we can make without resting.

For a game supposedly made for dungeon crawling among other things, it seems near impossible to get any rests, short or long.

3.5 had stuff like Rope Trick. Is there anything similarly reliable in 5e? How does your adventuring party deal with sch large expeditions?

I think your DM did something wrong here. If the party is after 5 encounters out of spells, and very low, you shouldn't give two more encounters, also you could just barricade the door. In my experience, if you aren't in a hurry, you often can take a long rest when you can take a short one, not Always of course.

There are spells as rope trick and leomund's tiny hut.

[PoeticDwarf]

That's...not really how milestone XP works.

The DM can change the milestone. You skip that dungeon and head off on the next adventure and you level once you do something important.

You don't use milestones to blackmail your players to run your ****ty content.

Indeed, if you kill enough monsters (not if you work with milestones) or if you just leave the dungeon and go to another quest (I mean, if you go, you can't level up otherwise), you should level up.

I think after hearing your story that your campaign is too much encounter depending anyway.

[Gignere]

The funny thing is the OP is now defending the GM, I know it's his brother but still if the party is out of resources even after 1 encounter because of ****ty rolls, it is the GM's duty to provide an out for the PCs if done correctly it doesn't even feel like one. Maybe instead of actually providing a long rest, you find a desecrated altar in the crypt. When the players cleans it they get the benefit of a long rest. Boom player agency leading to a much needed long rest without breaking verisimilitude of the rushing to save my buddy so no time to rest vibe.

[DiscipleofBob]

Part of it is GM, part of it is players, part of it is how we're all new, part of it is how no one in the group really listens to one another. Everyone's kind of paired off. Two characters game from the same house so their characters work perfectly in concert with each other but get the rest of the party into trouble. My wife (who's also in the game, and is effectively one rung below "little brother" as "wife of little brother" in the group) and I do most of the tanking and damage-dealing. The remaining two players worked well together, until one player got fed up with the game and left indefinitely, leaving us with the current "rescue the PC" predicament. The remaining player works more with the NPCs and the GM than anyone else in the actual party.

Of the two last encounters, one was because the latter character wanted to look real quick down one last hallway to see if she could find a trace of the missing party member and ended up waking up another encounter. IMO, we should've gotten a chance to Just run away, but, well, there's a reason I mentioned incorporeal undead being a problem.

I'm not going to call the GM ****y because he's new to 5e. We all are. My biggest problem in the game is that I can have a charisma of 8 or 16 and get equally ignored by most of the rest of the players.

I'm probably going to leave the game after this dungeon, just to be polite. But I guess this is an example of "no gaming is better than bad gaming."

[Vogonjeltz]

I've had the opportunity to play 5e for a few levels now, and in my personal experience, getting even a short rest is often near impossible, much less a long one.

Right now the party's in a large, undead tomb. How large?

Well, it took two encounters to get inside the tomb, we managed to explore one hallway and one corridor and in the process go through three more encounters, then, since my character's all out of rages and has lost half his max HP to Wights, and the rest of the party is about out of spells, we vote to leave, but somehow get into two MORE encounters on the way out.

A short rest is hard enough with the possibility of some kind of incorporeal undead showing up while we're recovering. A long rest is impossible without leaving the entire area. And the GM has made it clear that due to being and undead tomb, most of the encounters reset, or replaced by other more undead. I'm starting to feel like a 3.5 caster with how little progress we can make without resting.

For a game supposedly made for dungeon crawling among other things, it seems near impossible to get any rests, short or long.

3.5 had stuff like Rope Trick. Is there anything similarly reliable in 5e? How does your adventuring party deal with sch large expeditions?

When we need to rest in a dangerous area like a dungeon we stop and patch ourselves up, bandaging our wounds, or break for lunch or whatever (that's all a short rest is, a short break).

If the location is one with enough active monsters that it's dangerous to wait in the hallway, find a room, barricade the doors and short rest. A long rest isn't even relevent, you can only do one every 24 hours and it's basically the "You're camping for the night" rest.

Short rests should be possible at basically any time except the middle of combat and in a chase scenario.


5e fixed some things with this problem, like giving casters cantrips they can cast all day long, but it seems like it went in the other direction as well by making a lot of classes dependent on rests either short or long. And unlike in 4e, where the short rests were meant to be literally between every encounter, short rests are now an hour long, which starts to break my suspension in disbelief. "Comrades! Our companion is missing or worse, possibly deceased, and we must hurry to find him or at least recover his body from the horrors of this undead cesspool! Time is of the essence! But first, tea!" I'm not saying this problem is unique to 5th edition, but it does seem to be more prevalent. I've played Fighters and tanky classes in other editions, but this is the first campaign where I have to practically beg the rest of my party to try and rest somewhere so I can continue tanking for them.

Try thinking of it in terms of this: You're all extremely tired (many resources expended) and in some cases even sporting visible wounds (below 50% hp). Given that state of affairs, why wouldn't you stop and rest and bandage your wounds? If this were a real life scenario, it would be borderline crazy to continue on without stopping to rest a bit and stop that gash on Larry's arm from bleeding all over the place.


1. Give the PC in there up for lost, for now.
2. Leave the dungeon. Go and find a relatively large temple that has a cleric whom can cast Hallow. Explain about this horrifying Hell on earth that is mercilessly spawning undead of many nasty varieties. Any honest good temple will want to help stop such a horrifying undead generator.
3. Escort the cleric (maybe with some other temple guardians) to this dungeon's entrance, and protect him for the 24 hours it will take to cast Hallow. It costs 1000 GP to cast, the temple might cover it, but if not, pool your party's resources to help.
4. With the Hallow centered right at the entrance to the dungeon, you now have some distance within you can proceed, and undead (among some other things) cannot approach you at all. Fill it with daylight for good measure. Rest in this area as needed as you explore. If you can persuade the cleric to do so, and the temple has the funds for it, have the cleric progressively Hallow more ground deeper and deeper into the dungeon, until the undead have nowhere to go and can finally be wiped out.
5. If you find your friend's corpse or animated body, see if they will Raise Dead for you.

Bonus step: This probably won't work, but see if you can trick the GM into letting the player whose PC is lost in the dungeon play a cleric NPC that is strong enough to cast Hallow. Don't mention said plan beforehand.

With a DM this dysfunctional, I am skeptical that this plan would even reach the "find a cleric" stage without some kind of fiat to foil said plan, and if the other players are so ready to ignore the poster in other situations, then it's highly unlikely they would agree to pool resources or even listen to the plan.

OP: You said DM is your brother? Between sessions ask him to sit down and discuss your concerns. If he won't, or is ultimately not receptive...don't worry about it.

Next session just go all out in every fight and fully commit as a kamikaze until your character dies, which is what is going to happen if nothing changes in the dynamic. Either the other players and DM will realize that they've made a horrible error, or you can all re-roll characters and start a new adventure.

[Douche]

When you all inevitably die, just reroll as a bunch of rogues. They hardly need any rest at all!

For added cheese, make them all elves so you can trance as well :smalltongue:

[Kane0]

Also might be worth it to raise your hand to DM after a tpk happens.

[Tallis]

Part of it is GM, part of it is players, part of it is how we're all new, part of it is how no one in the group really listens to one another. Everyone's kind of paired off. Two characters game from the same house so their characters work perfectly in concert with each other but get the rest of the party into trouble. My wife (who's also in the game, and is effectively one rung below "little brother" as "wife of little brother" in the group) and I do most of the tanking and damage-dealing. The remaining two players worked well together, until one player got fed up with the game and left indefinitely, leaving us with the current "rescue the PC" predicament. The remaining player works more with the NPCs and the GM than anyone else in the actual party.

Of the two last encounters, one was because the latter character wanted to look real quick down one last hallway to see if she could find a trace of the missing party member and ended up waking up another encounter. IMO, we should've gotten a chance to Just run away, but, well, there's a reason I mentioned incorporeal undead being a problem.

I'm not going to call the GM ****y because he's new to 5e. We all are. My biggest problem in the game is that I can have a charisma of 8 or 16 and get equally ignored by most of the rest of the players.

I'm probably going to leave the game after this dungeon, just to be polite. But I guess this is an example of "no gaming is better than bad gaming."

That sounds like the best plan. Maybe you and your wife can start up your own game. Call the player that got fed up and left, maybe he'd be a more reasonable player.

Honestly it sound like the problems in your group run beyond just inexperience with 5e.


See, I still disagree on the concept that dungeons *have* to be built to accommodate the resting needs of 4 - 5 adventurers, or that the only way for characters to reliably get back resources is to sleep for 8 hours.

You can get a lot of your resources back with a one hour rest. The dungeons don't have to have built-in rest spots but smart players should be able to figure something out and the DM shouldn't actively be stopping you from doing it if you have a reasonable plan to secure the area. You mentioned the alternate rest rules earlier. If the DM doesn't want to let you get hour rests without being ambushed why won't he allow 5 minute short rests?


It's something in D&D that has always broken my suspension of disbelief, but it seems like in 5e it's a more prevalent problem than 3.5 or 4e. I remember one 3.5 game I was in a long time ago where the group was on the run from some TPK-ing monstrosity, on q chase that took multiple days, and while the rest of the party force marched as fast as we could, we had to fashion a hammock for the caster so he could sleep for 8 hours of the march and regain used of Expeditious Retreat. It felt just as silly then as it does now.

Carrying a hammock with a sleeping wizard on a forced march is silly. The wizard not regaining energy and studying his spellbook while performing a forced march (an activity that by nature pushes the limits of endurance) is realistic. I honestly don't understand your thinking here. It would strain my suspension of disbelief if he could do it.