Why are most Prestige Classes only 10 levels, when most of them you can enter at 6?

[Talionis]

I don't understand the design reasons for Prestige Classes to be end before you hit level 20. This is especially obvious with the Theurge classes where you start taking 5 or 6 levels of Legacy Champion just to progress say spellcasting and binding for an Anima Mage. In many ways it would be much cleaner for the Prestige Classes to all have enough levels to naturally get you to level 20. From a Roleplay standpoint, most people become a Prestige Class and it becomes their identity far more than whatever their starting class was.


I'm actually just curious if the designers ever gave a reason for most prestige classes being only 10 levels.

If not do you guys have any good fluff or reasoning you use?

Do you normally allow progression of Prestige Classes past their 10 levels? I've never been too big on homebrew myself. (I always worry about balance issues)

[Deophaun]

I'm actually just curious if the designers ever gave a reason for most prestige classes being only 10 levels.
I like to imagine it was because they realized that waiting until level 20 to give a capstone meant the vast majority of characters would never see them. But then they persisted in giving base classes 20 levels instead of 10.

If not do you guys have any good fluff or reasoning you use?
Class levels are a metagame concept. Do you cast spells? Do you use a bow? Do you cast spells into your bow/arrows? You are an arcane archer. It doesn't matter if you took 2 levels of the PrC, 10 levels, or found an entirely different means of doing the above without taking a single level in the PrC.

Do you normally allow progression of Prestige Classes past their 10 levels?
Sure. Once you hit Epic.

[nedz]

Who knows ?

They're not all 10 by the way.

5 assorted base classes / 10 level PrC / 5 level PrC can be a solid build.

[Psyren]

I'm actually just curious if the designers ever gave a reason for most prestige classes being only 10 levels.

I don't know of an official justification but it makes sense. Both from a flavor and mechanics standpoint, having a capstone around 15-16 (instead of at 20) rewards the player for sticking with the PrC until the end. Mechanically, this can be used as an end-of-progression boost to offset disadvantages that came earlier on (like subpar prerequisites or lost caster levels); flavor-wise, it plays up the standard fluff of PrCs being members of an elite or special group, the capstone can often reflect the special perks that someone leading or otherwise high in the echelons of said group can achieve, and be an easy way to identify them. And since they don't have to be level 20, high and even mid-level PCs are more likely to actually meet such an individual in the world and get plot hooks.




If not do you guys have any good fluff or reasoning you use?

See above.




Do you normally allow progression of Prestige Classes past their 10 levels? I've never been too big on homebrew myself. (I always worry about balance issues)


Generally no; I'd rather have more 3-5 level PrCs that can fill in those gaps at the end. For instance, I'm a big fan of classes like Paragnostic Apostle and Geometer because you can slot them into so many other 10-level PrC builds. You can then go back to progressing the 10-level PrC in epic if you wish.

[Kraken]

Even a core archmage is pretty darned good to pad out a 5+10+5 progression, though strictly within core I don't think there's a way to go 5+10+5. Geometer in particular is also one of my favorites (Under appreciated!), in addition to what's already been mentioned you also have invisible blade (if you can get it fixed to account for poor editing), master thrower, fist of the forest, shadowcraft mage, runesmith, initiate of the sevenfold veil, uncanny trickster, spellwarp sniper, witch slayer, and...lots, really, that's just what came to me off the top of my head. They're outnumbered by 10 level prestige classes, sure, but there's a pretty good amount of prestige classes with fewer than 10 levels.

[Talionis]

Sounds like the basic idea is that people hit the Prestige Class capstone at fifteen so that they actually get to use the capstone from 16-20 where they get more game time in.

I actually respect that answer... I don't think every Prestige Class is built with an actual capstone worthy ability, but I do like the idea.

I guess I'm also hearing that it can be good to be the best "whatever prestige class" and then get forced to pick something else to keep doing so people are forced to make a choice...

I still think it's a little ackward for theurge classes like Ruby Knight Vindicator, Anima Mage, Soulcaster, where it was built to be a Theurge class and there are no really great options to advance both progressions.

[Flickerdart]

There's a hint as to why in the ELH when it discusses why there are no progressions for 5-level-long PrCs. In addition to "it's too easy to max out" and "it's too hard to figure out a progression with so little to go on" there's this: "Characters with ten levels in the blackguard prestige class undoubtedly think of themselves as blackguards, regardless of the fact that they also have ten levels in one or more other classes. If you’ve taken fewer than ten levels in a prestige class, those levels represent a smaller fraction of your character’s identity."

It seems possible that the designers never wanted characters to "lose track" of who they were before - a wizard 10/master transmogrifist 10 is still a wizard, but a wizard 5/master transmogrifist 15 isn't really a wizard anymore.

This would not be the first time the designers forgot that you can take a second PrC though.

[Âmesang]

Archmage is my favorite prestige class, and even though it maxes out at five levels its abilities and "late" qualifications always make me think that my character has finally transcended sorcerer/wizard/whatever to become not just a "mage" but an "archmage," the elite of the elite, the closest one can get to achieving the magical might of the ancient spellcasters of legend (without going epic, which can be a fun "stepping stone" in its own right — "now the real journey beings," so to speak).

…I definitely wouldn't want to take the class beyond 5th-level, though, not with the spell-slot losses. :smalltongue:

[Sacrieur]

Prestige classes tend to be more flavored and specific than your traditional base class. They're supposed to be different ways to play a fighter or different ways to play a wizard, not replace them outright.

[DrMotives]

You could also be a half-elf or half-orc, and start with 5 or 6 racial paragon levels before hitting a standard PrC. Be a core race with no base classes at all!

[Flickerdart]

You could also be a half-elf or half-orc, and start with 5 or 6 racial paragon levels before hitting a standard PrC. Be a core race with no base classes at all!
You can get into a bunch of prestige classes like Stoneblessed at level 4, so you only need 3 levels in a paragon class.

[torrasque666]

You can get into a bunch of prestige classes like Stoneblessed at level 4, so you only need 3 levels in a paragon class.
3rd. You can get into Stoneblessed at 3rd. Or 2nd, if you blow two feats on Favored and Primary Contact.

[Acanous]

my favorite PrC has to be Master Specialist, just because of how early you can enter. I love the idea of class levels basically showing how a Wizard focuses their studies.
"So I got a bachelor's of magic, then a Masters in Illusion. I did my Arcane Thesis on Silent Image and then got a doctorate in the Shadow subschool."

[stanprollyright]

my favorite PrC has to be Master Specialist, just because of how early you can enter. I love the idea of class levels basically showing how a Wizard focuses their studies.
"So I got a bachelor's of magic, then a Masters in Illusion. I did my Arcane Thesis on Silent Image and then got a doctorate in the Shadow subschool."

Wizards: the snobby professors of medieval fantasy.

[nedz]

You could also be a half-elf or half-orc, and start with 5 or 6 racial paragon levels before hitting a standard PrC. Be a core race with no base classes at all!

I did that once with a Janni: Educated feat into Horizon Walker. Interesting character, but not really a good PC build — I used it for an NPC.

[Fizban]

Because everyone else gets their top stuff at level 15-17, which is the same as "so they have time to use it" but from the other direction. Even reduced casting progressions from Bard, Paladin/Ranger, and Adept all hit their final levels in there, basically any competently designed base class will bring on it's final tier of abilities in that range (naturally this means there are multiple PHB classes that don't). This also allows prestige classes to "go out with a bang," putting a big impressive final ability at level 10 and have it actually showing up at the right moment, though if it's a limited use ability this usually comes at the cost of not getting extra uses until epic.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Honestly? Probably because it's a nice round number and half the size of a base class. I have trouble giving early-edition WotC credit for more thought then that.

[Telonius]

Just from the DMG prestige classes and Core classes, here are the quickest ways into the classes. (Other class combinations are possible, but just to get a handle on the levels).

Arcane Archer: Ranger6/Wizard1 = 7
Arcane Trickster: Wizard5/Rogue3 = 8
Archmage: Wizard13 = 13
Assassin: Rogue 5 = 5
Blackguard: Ranger6 = 6
Dragon Disciple: Sorcerer5 = 5
Duelist: Rogue1/Fighter6 = 7
Dwarven Defender: Fighter7 = 7
Eldritch Knight: Fighter1/Wizard5 = 6
Hierophant: Cleric13 = 13
Horizon Walker: Ranger5 = 5
Loremaster: Wizard7 = 7
Mystic Theurge: Wizard3/Cleric3 = 6
Shadowdancer: Rogue7 = 7
Thaumaturgist: Cleric7 = 7
Red Wizard: Wizard5 = 5

So just from the first few prestige classes, it's a pretty wide mix of entry levels, with the biggest number of them clustering at 7. So here's what that amounts to:

Prestige class available at 6th: 4
Prestige class available at 7th: 3
Prestige class available at 8th: 6
Prestige class available at 9th: 1
Prestige class available at 14th: 2

Allowing things other than core might change a couple of those with early entry shenanigans, but 6th level wasn't really the typical entry until the splatbooks started coming out.

[Chronos]

I think that for Mystic Theurge and the like, they really should be longer. With something like Loremaster, you can go back to taking straight wizard levels (or another PrC) while still feeling like you're doing the same thing, but with Mystic Theurge, once you go theurge, you never go back.

[Sacrieur]

I think that for Mystic Theurge and the like, they really should be longer. With something like Loremaster, you can go back to taking straight wizard levels (or another PrC) while still feeling like you're doing the same thing, but with Mystic Theurge, once you go theurge, you never go back.

Well you still gotta leave five levels for Abj Champion ;)

[Chronos]

Abjurant Champion is a good class, but how is it relevant for a Mystic Theurge build?

[Sacrieur]

Abjurant Champion is a good class, but how is it relevant for a Mystic Theurge build?

Because it's useful for any arcane caster. Any single one. There's no reason not to take it.

[SinsI]

Level 17 is the crucial start of The End Game in D&D - wizards get access to 9th level spells, so all the most difficult Challenges become fair game, and the last 3 levels don't really matter - wealth pays far, far more important role than class levels after that.

Prestige classes are made so that you can get all of their most powerful abilities by that point in time.