A thought about balance, Templates, CR and Rocket Tag

[Nibbens]

There are plenty of Templates to add to creatures in PF, and these templates increase their CR. I had a thought, what if you added just one ability to a creature, how much would that ability bump the CR.

The ability: Subtract 1 from each damage dice rolled against this creature.

So the barbarian rolling 2d6+15 would get -2 to his damage. The mage who's fireball does 10d6 damage would get -10 to damage.

The idea here is to slice down on Damage dealt by rocket tag mechanics of high level PF.

Would this be a +1 CR template or more? Would you be able to add things on top of this ability for a +1 template?

[Slithery D]

That's a pretty weak ability, not worth a +1. The Wizard is only suffering the effects of the weakest possible level of energy resistance, and as your Barbarian example shows static additions to damage (here +15) are much more important than weapon dice for most physical combat.

[Beheld]

Yeah, that ability:

1) Isn't worth a CR increase. A CR increase needs to be worth at least as much as taking a level in class that you actually want.
2) Shouldn't exist. If you want a creature to be more resistant to damage, there is energy resistance and DR. You can give him energy resistance to every energy type and DR/-, so there is no reason to create wonky abilities that can't be explained in game terms.
3) Does nothing to reduce "Rocket Tag" since Rocket tag usually involves failing a save against something that causes you to lose the fight, whether that save is against Glitterdust or Flesh to Stone, your ability has nothing to do with those.

[Quertus]

2) Shouldn't exist. If you want a creature to be more resistant to damage, there is energy resistance and DR. You can give him energy resistance to every energy type and DR/-, so there is no reason to create wonky abilities that can't be explained in game terms.

Is it really any harder to explain in game terms than Maximize Spell or Empower Spell? Than Iaijutsu Master's +Charisma to each die of damage? I'm sure there's more - 2e was rife with such mechanics.

But... unless the race is supposed to be "wonky" (with some sort of strange probability-manipulating defensive mechanism, perhaps?), I agree that there are better mechanics.

[Beheld]

Is it really any harder to explain in game terms than Maximize Spell or Empower Spell? Than Iaijutsu Master's +Charisma to each die of damage? I'm sure there's more - 2e was rife with such mechanics.

But... unless the race is supposed to be "wonky" (with some sort of strange probability-manipulating defensive mechanism, perhaps?), I agree that there are better mechanics.

Yes, it is much harder to explain "for some reason fireballs do 10 less damage, falchions do 2 less damage and shortswords do 1 less damage, but all of this is from the same ability!" than it is "I cast fireball in a higher level slot and it does more damage."

[meemaas]

Yes, it is much harder to explain "for some reason fireballs do 10 less damage, falchions do 2 less damage and shortswords do 1 less damage, but all of this is from the same ability!" than it is "I cast fireball in a higher level slot and it does more damage."

Personally, I think it would probably be easier and better to just apply a 50% damage reduction as part of the custom template. If the goal is to get the monsters to last longer, that would probably help the most. Just keep it off if the players.

[Beheld]

Personally, I think it would probably be easier and better to just apply a 50% damage reduction as part of the custom template. If the goal is to get the monsters to last longer, that would probably help the most. Just keep it off if the players.

If you want to give 50% damage reduction from all sources I know a full proof 100% success rate of doing so. Double HP. No Seriously, if you want something to be more resistant against all forms of HP damage, the correct system is to add more HP.

But honestly, I question if you were really in a situation in which your players really wish that fights took longer grinding down HP of crippled opponents. And is so, why don't you play 4e. Seriously, if the players choose to make characters that kill the monsters "too fast" maybe they want to kill the monsters that fast.

[Nibbens]

All of you have valid points. I think I'll address some of them so some confusion is put to rest.

1) The idea came to me as a possible solution for rocket tag from looking at the sorcerer Draconic Bloodline (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/draconic-bloodline). Specifically, the Bloodline Arcana:


Bloodline Arcana: Whenever you cast a spell with an energy descriptor that matches your draconic bloodline's energy type, that spell deals +1 point of damage per die rolled.

When I saw that I figured, "Hey, that could work in reverse too" and have been kicking around ideas in my head how to make it work.

This brings up a couple points:

1) If it already exists, then it's no more difficult to explain in game mechanics than it's reverse.

2) I broadened the ability to include all damage dice rolled instead of one damage type (as per the Arcana). Since I did so, I wondered if this ability would be worth a CR +1 because of that broadening.

3) In combination with #2, since this is a broadened reverse of an ability that a 1st level sorcerer dip would take, this ability alone "could" potentially be as much as taking another level, however, I wasn't sure. So that's why I asked.

Now to respond to an idea:

Doubling HP, +50% damage reduction across the board, and playing 4e would result in HP grinds. Something that I'm neither interested in nor care to experience again.

The question I posed was to reinforce my knowledge about balance, CR, Templates and Rocket Tag in general - as per the title of the thread. :) So thank you all for your input. Any more would be appreciated!

[Grod_The_Giant]

Even discounting save or die/lose abilities... There are three main ways of dealing high damage: lots of small attacks, lots of dice in a single attack, or large bonuses to a single/small number of attacks. This ability hits the second mildly badly, that first slightly, and the third not at all. It's also, mathematically, equal to dropping die size one step, which is... Not a very big deal.

[Beheld]

All of you have valid points. I think I'll address some of them so some confusion is put to rest.

1) The idea came to me as a possible solution for rocket tag from looking at the sorcerer Draconic Bloodline (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/draconic-bloodline). Specifically, the Bloodline Arcana:



When I saw that I figured, "Hey, that could work in reverse too" and have been kicking around ideas in my head how to make it work.

This brings up a couple points:

1) If it already exists, then it's no more difficult to explain in game mechanics than it's reverse.

2) I broadened the ability to include all damage dice rolled instead of one damage type (as per the Arcana). Since I did so, I wondered if this ability would be worth a CR +1 because of that broadening.

3) In combination with #2, since this is a broadened reverse of an ability that a 1st level sorcerer dip would take, this ability alone "could" potentially be as much as taking another level, however, I wasn't sure. So that's why I asked.

Now to respond to an idea:

Doubling HP, +50% damage reduction across the board, and playing 4e would result in HP grinds. Something that I'm neither interested in nor care to experience again.

1) It doesn't already exist. The ability to do more damage with your spells is different from the ability to take one less damage from an ubercharging barbarian using an axe, 2 less damage from the same barbarian using a great sword, and ten less damage from a fireball. Dice is not a consistent measure of anything. So reducing damage based on die size is not going to produce comprehensible results. If you want it to be more resilient against HP damage, give it more HP, if you don't want to double hp, give it 20 extra HP, whatever. The point is that the only function of this ability is to simulate extra HP, but a different amount of HP depending on what does the HP damage. Since the monster will only ever be affected by one set of HP damage (totaling it's entire HP pool) this ability is only going to simulate one amount of extra HP. You could just add that much HP instead.

2 and 3) The important thing about taking sorcerer levels is the sorcerer casting. If you take a one level Sorcerer Dip for this ability as a PC, you are deliberately making a terrible character, and no one is going to do that. So no, the ability to reducing barbarian attacks by 1 damage and fighter attacks by 2 damage is not worth an entire level, since a level should give 8+Con HP in addition to actual class features.

[Spore]

The idea came to me as a possible solution for rocket tag from looking at the sorcerer Draconic Bloodline (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/draconic-bloodline). Specifically, the Bloodline Arcana:

I think you have the term "rocket tag" confused. It is not aimed at high damage mechanics or explosions or even blast spells at all. They are quite finely tuned in terms of damage. I have never seen an appropriately built CR monster die from a fireball. Not even a Orc/Draconic bloodline sorcerer one's.

Spells that start rocket tag are: Disintegrate (sure, it's damage but the damage of the failed save is targetted to kill anyone short of d10 classes with very good Con), Flesh to Stone, offensive Plane Shift, Feeble Mind, Insanity, Force Cage, even Polymorph are considered this. Other than that, uberchargers with high initiative are often rocket taggers as are pounce barbarians and any other build that is aimed to crush someone in one round from 100% to zero.

Be creative about the problem. Don't present any monster with twice HP. Don't give everything DR. Mix up things a bit. A dragon could have tapped into the mysteries of time itself, allowing it to only get damaged for a quarter of its health every turn. Other attacks are slowed down enough. Feels hamfisted but if it is enough for MMO bosses (even if they are combats of at least 10 minutes which should last 100 rounds+), you should at least give it a try.

[Nibbens]

I think you have the term "rocket tag" confused. It is not aimed at high damage mechanics or explosions or even blast spells at all. They are quite finely tuned in terms of damage. I have never seen an appropriately built CR monster die from a fireball. Not even a Orc/Draconic bloodline sorcerer one's.

Spells that start rocket tag are: Disintegrate (sure, it's damage but the damage of the failed save is targetted to kill anyone short of d10 classes with very good Con), Flesh to Stone, offensive Plane Shift, Feeble Mind, Insanity, Force Cage, even Polymorph are considered this. Other than that, uberchargers with high initiative are often rocket taggers as are pounce barbarians and any other build that is aimed to crush someone in one round from 100% to zero.

Welp... This changes things. LOL.


Be creative about the problem. Don't present any monster with twice HP. Don't give everything DR. Mix up things a bit. A dragon could have tapped into the mysteries of time itself, allowing it to only get damaged for a quarter of its health every turn. Other attacks are slowed down enough. Feels hamfisted but if it is enough for MMO bosses (even if they are combats of at least 10 minutes which should last 100 rounds+), you should at least give it a try.

Viable solution, morso than doubling HP. Hamfisted feels better than nofisted. lol.

Regardless, apparently I was wrong about the term rocket tag. I assumed it was aimed at damage. I always categorized flesh to stone, insanity, ect as a save or suck spell rather with the term. Strangely enough, my group values damage dice over insta-gibbing spells. Players love to roll their dice and all that. I try to stay away from them as well as they are the definition of unfun, relegating success or failure on a simple dice roll rather than tactics and RP.

[stanprollyright]

The best way to reduce rocket tag is increase defenses. Higher AC and saves means that it is statistically harder to kill/remove someone in a single round, but with some luck you can still one-shot things if you're built to do that kind of thing. With marginal increases, so that AC is 5 higher at 20th and saves are ~4 higher (different rates for good/bad saves) would make for a lot less rocket tag. Other than that, giving everyone max health for their HD goes a long way as well.

[Sacrieur]

I like the rocket tag aspect.

That said it's not like you can't build a walking tank. It's just different than being able to rely on d12 and some heavy armor.

[Spore]

Regardless, apparently I was wrong about the term rocket tag. I assumed it was aimed at damage. I always categorized flesh to stone, insanity, ect as a save or suck spell rather with the term. Strangely enough, my group values damage dice over insta-gibbing spells. Players love to roll their dice and all that. I try to stay away from them as well as they are the definition of unfun, relegating success or failure on a simple dice roll rather than tactics and RP.

It's both really but rocket tag plays at the "one hit and you're dead" situation. Possibly with a hint of "who moves first wins because both sides have options that kill unfailingly".

It's like the cold war scenario of mutually assured destruction applied to game mechanics.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The best way to reduce rocket tag is increase defenses. Higher AC and saves means that it is statistically harder to kill/remove someone in a single round, but with some luck you can still one-shot things if you're built to do that kind of thing. With marginal increases, so that AC is 5 higher at 20th and saves are ~4 higher (different rates for good/bad saves) would make for a lot less rocket tag. Other than that, giving everyone max health for their HD goes a long way as well.

This doesn't really reduce rocket tag at all. As long as a single missed save is enough to lose a fight you're going to have rocket tag, no matter how high these saves are. All you're doing with that is making things more frustrating for the players when everything needs a 1 on a save to fail.
It might lead to players no longer using save or die/save or suck spells, but if that's your goal you could just ban them outright instead of punishing your players for choosing what, to the best of their knowledge, is a valid option of contributing to combat.

Increasing hp works for making monsters last longer against hp damage, but that only shifts the balance further in favor of save or X abilities. Once the monster is nauseated/paralyzed/whatever it doesn't really matter how many hp it has, you're just dragging out your fights with no gain whatsoever. It's still over just as fast, your players are just forced to spend longer mopping up, which doesn't add much fun to the game.

Rocket tag is so firmly integrated into almost every part of 3.5/PF that you won't get rid of it with a few simple balance changes. You'd have to throw out the whole system and rebuild it from the ground up, and at that point you could just play a different system for the same effect with less work.