Mass Battle Rules

[olaf]

Does anyone here have any experience running massive battles under d20? Things I am looking for:

1) PC actions must be able to influence the outcome of the battle
2) PCs are not to be concerned with unit movement or high level strategy, they are going to be on the ground in the fight and I want to focus more on the experience of the battle than pushing little figures around a map.
3) It has to flow well and be simple enough to fudge the numbers on the fly if I need to.

Last night in my game I set up the next session to be a massive battle (the evil druid BBEG with his army of crazed animals picked the PCs' home town as the first place to start destroying civilization). Unfortunately, DnD does not have (to my knowledge) a set of rules for running a massive battle, so I'm either going to have to come up with my own, adapt another system to d20, or just wing it.

The battle session is going to be in a week, so I don't really have time to come up with my own system.

Several months ago I played in a Legend of the Five Rings game that used that system's mass battle rules and I was really impressed. It keeps things fairly abstract (no worrying about unit movement or the like), while still allowing the PCs to influence the outcome of the battle. I do not think it would be too difficult to adapt the system to d20, so that is an option.

Any suggestions?

[Triaxx]

Just how massive are we looking at? 20? 50? 100?

You can run it as a normal battle up to about 50 enemies. Basically it's all a matter of hoping the Wizards have enough AoE spells to knock the enemies down.

Once you hit 50 foes and up, as GM, you have to split the enemies into groups, where they can come at the players in smaller numbers, on a specific timer. Say the first group consists of wolves, which move faster than bears. So they arrive 12 turns ahead of the bears, but only 6 ahead of the big cats. Then the PC's can fight for six turns, and turn to face the cats, then repeat.

With 100 plus opponents, you have to make sure your players have recieved the suggestion of only slowing the advance, and fighting a retreat action.

Are there going to be friendly NPC forces? If so, make sure you know the exact strength and placement of them before the session starts. Find out who is in command, and what they can do. Then look at the city itself. If there's a single choke point, you can probably bring it back into standard D&D rules.
---

Now for the actual rules. One setting I have uses a Blade as the standard unit size, consisting of 120 men, cavalry, aircavalry, and so on. A full Blade has 120 HP. Each HP is representative of one individual. So each individual that dies, removes one HP. The individuals have their own HP, but only affect unit HP when one dies. Each Blade is assigned an officer, typically the ranking member of the unit. This is the morale indicator. When the officer dies, the unit either flees, or berserks. It might not be applicable with animals, and it's not necessary, but there it is.

You might find that you have to average damages, to avoid getting lost in the dices. For example, a wizard lobs a Fireball amidst a group of bears. Calculate the damage, and apply it evenly to all units, instead of calculating for each target. It's not pretty, but otherwise you'll need to clear several minutes to resolve such attacks.

[olaf]

Well, the town will probably be able to muster a couple hundred troops from the local garrison, plus the PCs and a handful of NPCs with class levels.

The invading army is going to be upwards of a thousand beasties.

The town is not walled, so it will be fairly hard to defend: they have only a couple of hours between finding out about the incoming army and the army arriving, so there is very limited time to prepare fortifications.

[ZeroNumerous]

It does have it's own rules. Miniatures Handbook and Heroes of Battle both have mass battle rules contained within.

[olaf]

It does have it's own rules. Miniatures Handbook and Heroes of Battle both have mass battle rules contained within.

Ah, good to know. I have neither of these titles, however.

I specifically want to avoid using miniatures (I don't use them during normal combat either), so the Miniatures Handbook is probably out.

I'll look into the Heroes of Battle, but I won't be able to get it by the next session, so I think I'll go with a homebrew solution.

[ZeroNumerous]

Miniatures Handbook still has a workable mass battle mechanic, even if you don't use miniatures. And as a note: Not using markers doing a mass battle can be quite confusing for the players.

[olaf]

And as a note: Not using markers doing a mass battle can be quite confusing for the players.

I've played in games that both use and don't use miniatures for battle.

I prefer to not use them, as the AoO and AoE rules turn combat into a puzzle that sort of breaks up the flow of the fight as players try to figure out the optimal move to make, which the character would not have time to do in actual combat.

[ZeroNumerous]

AoE?

And yes, players like to make the most optimal move because it's part of the collective team strategy. And yes, a character wouldn't have time for it, but everyone doesn't just take turns during combat. A player could move to a square and know out-of-character that square provokes an enemy spellcaster and would provide him an AoO if they attempted to cast. In characer, that character could have moved there just as the enemy spellcaster moved close, thus presenting himself as a target. Dumb luck can be brought into a battle, and that easily represents the optimal movement of players.

[olaf]

AoE?

Yes, AoE ... I've seen players take five minutes to figure out which square to target with a fireball.


And yes, players like to make the most optimal move because it's part of the collective team strategy. And yes, a character wouldn't have time for it, but everyone doesn't just take turns during combat. A player could move to a square and know out-of-character that square provokes an enemy spellcaster and would provide him an AoO if they attempted to cast. In characer, that character could have moved there just as the enemy spellcaster moved close, thus presenting himself as a target. Dumb luck can be brought into a battle, and that easily represents the optimal movement of players.

Note that I don't think that there is anything particularly wrong with the style of play that usually occurs when miniatures are used, I just prefer a more free flowing style.

[Assasinater]

It's somewhat unrealistic for PCs to see the battlefield with perfect visibility, and preparing every move strategically. We generally use crude drawings and depend on the DM's descriptive skills. I think it prepares the chaotic atmosphere of war better.

[C Harnryd]

Well, if you're desperate, you can try my homebrew system (http://www.xena.nu/aressystem.html).

Each army is a single "monster". Each 1 minute round, the armies try to damage each other and the PCs and 1 NPC/army can try to influence the battle by trying a "battle feat" (sabotage, inspire the troops, provide an heroic example, etc).

[Abjurer]

Personally, I'd just let the battle rage around them. Just because other people are fighting also doesn't mean that they're necessarily important to the PCs. The PCs won't be able to fight all the baddies at once anyways, and you can say people are fighting around them without rolling the NPCs' attacks and damage. I'd only get into the masses of troops if the PCs do.

[olaf]

Thanks for all of the feedback.

I think I am going to go with my initial plan to adapt the L5R mass battle rules to D20. I don't think I can post the details here without violating L5R's copyright, but here is a high-level summary:


A battle takes place in turns of 15-30 minutes each
The generals (this assumes a two sided conflict) make an opposed skill check with Battle (WIS) (a new skill). PCs that have this skill can use the Aid Another action to help their general with this roll if they have ranks in Battle. There are several modifiers to this roll based on relative numbers, lay of the land, familiarity with the land, etc. The outcome of this roll determines who has the advantage this turn.
The PCs make a Battle (WIS) roll (they can do this untrained), modified by how heavily engaged they are (reserves, lightly engaged, engaged, heavily engaged) and the outcome of the generals' opposed check. Each level of engagement has a table that determines what happens to the PCs this battle round based on the PCs' Battle checks.
Some of the entries in the tables allow for the PCs to do something that can, if they succeed, give their general a bonus to the next opposed Battle check. PCs can fight together as a group or individually. Fighting individually will be harder, but will also give a lot more opportunities to influence the battle on a larger scale.
If one of the generals wins enough opposed Battle checks, the battle is over due to one side retreating or all of one side's forces getting captured or killed.


I'll have to adapt the encounter tables a bit, as some of them are setting-specific (one, in particular, has a high-level opponent challenge the PC to a duel on the battlefield, which has significant implications in the honor-heavy psuedosamurai setting of Rokugan that might not translate to a typical DnD world).

[Triaxx]

With that the case and condition of your town, you'd probably better suggest they consider retreating and fighting a rear guard action, using a high ranking NPC to make said suggestion.

And when it comes to Area of Effect spells, I take five minutes to decide I'm casting Fireball, much less where to aim it. Having a Hawk familar over the field takes care of the nagging point of 'I can see the field, but the character can't.'.