Cut of Point for Warlock?

[DragonBaneDM]

Hey gang.

So my party's Half-Elf Fey TomeLock is looking to multiclass! She's not sure what she's gonna go with yet, but options on the table currently are Sorcerer and Bard. She's got a high Cha, decent Dex and Con, and the only negative mod is in Int.

What we're trying to pin down right now is a cut off point. The squad is Level 4 right now (party make up is Thief, Slim Shady Monk, Virtue Paladin, and the Warlock) and coming up on 5.

The idea right now is hit Warlock 5, nab Level 3 spells, and multiclass from there. A lot of the guides I'm looking at recommend higher levels like 11 and 17 for Mystic Arcanum, which begs me to ask the question: just how sweet is that one higher spell slot? Also Misty Escape at 6 looks kinda sweet, but again, anyone out there to say if it's worth it or not?

Also, any tips on whether you guys would go Sorc or Bard? Or maybe there's something else she's not considering. Her fluff fits Druid perfectly (Eldeen Reaches from Eberron), but with a Wis of 11 there's no way she's gonna make that work.

[DracoKnight]

Also, any tips on whether you guys would go Sorc or Bard? Or maybe there's something else she's not considering. Her fluff fits Druid perfectly (Eldeen Reaches from Eberron), but with a Wis of 11 there's no way she's gonna make that work.

A decent Cha-caster build is Warlock 14/Lore Bard 6. It gives you all of your patron's goodies, you get 3rd level Bard spells, some of the Mystic Arcanum, and then you also get Magical Secrets :)

[UrsusArctos]

If your DM will let you retrain your ASI to +2 Wis, go Druid. Thematics should always trump mechanic, and if something is a good fit, do that.

As for mechanical fit, you don't really need that much Wis to be a caster. It helps a lot, but if you focus on buffing spells and Goodberry, you'll be fine. If you go Circle of the Moon, then you're even better, as they barely need any stats to work.

Good first and second level druid spells that don't need Wis:

Goodberry
Fog Cloud
Jump
Longstrider
Barkskin
Heat Metal (On armor)
Lesser Restoration
Darkvision
Enhance Ability

[Tanarii]

IMO Mystic Arcanum is more valuable than a few low level spells. Especially Eyebite. Then Plane Shift or Force Cage (depending on campaign style). Then Dominate Monster. Then Foresight.

The reason to Multiclass out of Warlock is because you're mixing non-caster, and usually you want to start as a Fighter or Paladin and take 5-6 levels then go warlock, not switch in to them.

For a Tomelock, I'd probably Recommend Lore Bard, after level 11. Nets you some scalable healing, some extra low level spell slots, some Inspiration, but most important 4 skills and Expertise. Take 3 levels of bard, go back for 3 of warlock, then decide if you want to finish out warlock or three more bard.

[Mavrik]

To be honest, Warlock value drops off hard after level 3 unless you plan to go very deep. At level 3 you have your cantrips, 6 lvl 2 spell slots, the pact boon, and 2 invocations. From 3 through level 11 all you get are slot lvl increases and a couple of extra invocations (which are also level dependant). Unless one plans on going to level 11 or deeper there's no reason to go past level 3.

For example, if you stopped at 2 or 3, and instead took the next 8-10 levels in Sorcerer or Wizard instead, you trade 2 more invocations, 1 cantrip, and lvl 2->lvl 5 spell slot increase for straight up 15 more spell slots period (2 of which are level 5 slots), 5 more cantrips, and juicy metamagic/arcane tradition options. It's not even close which path is smartest.

Mystic Arcaneum is probably the most underwhelming late-game class option across all classes. 1 slot that can be used once a day? Would you rather Eyebite 1 time or Hypnotic Pattern 5 times? Yeah ...

[Tanarii]

From 3 through level 11 all you get are slot lvl increases and a couple of extra invocations (which are also level dependant).thats one of the funnier uses of 'all' I've read. :p


For example, if you stopped at 2 or 3, and instead took the next 8-10 levels in Sorcerer or Wizard instead, you trade 2 more invocations, 1 cantrip, and lvl 2->lvl 5 spell slot increase for straight up 15 more spell slots period (2 of which are level 5 slots), 5 more cantrips, and juicy metamagic/arcane tradition options. It's not even close which path is smartest.Right. It's continuing on warlock and getting access to higher level spells faster. 6xslots at highest spell level per day > 1 x slot at highest spell level -2 per day.


Mystic Arcaneum is probably the most underwhelming late-game class option across all classes. 1 slot that can be used once a day? Would you rather Eyebite 1 time or Hypnotic Pattern 5 times? Yeah ...One slot once per day is exactly what every other caster gets from level 6 thru 9. Until the very last two levels of the game.

Pretty sure your analysis is based on not having looked at how Pact Magic & Mystic Arcanum actually measure up vs Spellcasting. The answer is they're effectively equivalent in power. Each have some disadvantages, and some advantages, but overall they're approximately the same power. And just like Spellcasting, you need a decent reason to not keep going up two more levels for the next spell level access.

[Mavrik]

thats one of the funnier uses of 'all' I've read. :p

Right. It's continuing on warlock and getting access to higher level spells faster. 6xslots at highest spell level per day > 1 x slot at highest spell level -2 per day.

One slot once per day is exactly what every other caster gets from level 6 thru 9. Until the very last two levels of the game.

Pretty sure your analysis is based on not having looked at how Pact Magic & Mystic Arcanum actually measure up vs Spellcasting. The answer is they're effectively equivalent in power. Each have some disadvantages, and some advantages, but overall they're approximately the same power. And just like Spellcasting, you need a decent reason to not keep going up two more levels for the next spell level access.

You just refuted yourself though. If Mystic Arcanum is 'equal to' basic spellcasting, that automatically means you get no net value out of the feature; it's what other spell-casting classes get for free. This means other class features other spell-casters get count towards a net positive over Warlocks, nevermind the enormus net negative Warlocks hit themselves with if they need to spend a slot downgrading without value (such as using Hex at a 5th level), or the fact most spells scale EXTREMELY poorly at high levels. Wasting a full lvl 3-4 slot to gain 2d6 or 2d8 damage, jesus christ the waste is real.

Meanwhile, we don't even want to talk about the fact 5e is designed around 6 battle encounters per day, and you'll be stuck with 6 slots, period, until level 11. So from level 1->10 you get to use 1 spell per fight. I guess if that's your idea of fun and engaging gameplay, be my guest.

[Felvion]

My personal recommendation is to go pure warlock. There are so many nice invocations and the class is full of utility which makes it almost impossible to find such a cut point.
At 7 and 9 she gets new invocations. Invocations are half the flavor for warlock and are quite powerful. The fey patrons features are so unique and cool. I mean what's cooler than misty escape?
The pact mechanics may seems weird but who doesn't like invisibility becoming mass invisibility at higher levels? Is she willing to give up dominate monster, banishment, greater invisibility or dark delirium? As a tomelock she could also start a quest to gather all rituals in her cool tome while playing with her multiform 5ed familiar like a wizard does.
Doesn't she like repelling blast or seeing through any darkness? Unlimited illusions or disduises?
If not then tell her to pick whatever she likes. There's nothing weak in 5th edition. I like to say that you cant go wrong unless you try too hard. If you are the dm i'd tell you to even let her multiclass without the 13 wis prerequisite if druid fits her style.

Ps:Mavrik as far as i am concerned warlock has 2, not 6, spell slots until level 11. That's not bad. It hurts a bit but it's not bad. Eitherwise it would be too op.

[Tanarii]

You just refuted yourself though. If Mystic Arcanum is 'equal to' basic spellcasting, that automatically means you get no net value out of the feature; it's what other spell-casting classes get for free. This means other class features other spell-casters get count towards a net positive over Warlocks, nevermind the enormus net negative Warlocks hit themselves with if they need to spend a slot downgrading without value (such as using Hex at a 5th level), or the fact most spells scale EXTREMELY poorly at high levels. Wasting a full lvl 3-4 slot to gain 2d6 or 2d8 damage, jesus christ the waste is real.none of this makes any sense. All Spellcasting classes, including warlock, get one per day level 6, 7, 8, 9 spells. You only get them if you stick with the class though. If you leave it early, you don't get them or delay them.


Meanwhile, we don't even want to talk about the fact 5e is designed around 6 battle encounters per day, and you'll be stuck with 6 slots, period, until level 11. So from level 1->10 you get to use 1 spell per fight. I guess if that's your idea of fun and engaging gameplay, be my guest.since level 6 and higher spells are the same for warlocks and other casters, let's look at 5th and lower spells, ie up to character level 10.

Warlocks get 6 slots per day at their highest Spellcasting level. Other casters get 1-2 slot per day at their highest level they can cast, and 2 of One level lower, and 3 at max level minus two. That means their second spell cast per encounter is 3 levels lower than the highest level they can cast, and doesn't come into play until level 7th character level. Yes, warlocks get about one slot less per encounter between levels 7-10, but they make up for it by having a powerhouse at-will and all of their 1 spell / encounter being max level, as opposed to a mix of max to max-2.

Meanwhile after 10 they get more invocations on top of that giving at-will effects at higher level, as well as a level 14 pact feature. And an extra slot per SR at levels 11 and 17 bringing them up to the same as other casters.

Warlocks are balanced against other casters, they just work on short-rests instead of long. Dropping out of them is an option, but it's the same as dropping out of any caster class ... You're giving up your most powerful spells. Doing it to get access to another Spellcasting lowered level spells (by at least 2 spell levels) is usually less than optimal.

[MrStabby]

Warlock casting from slots is pretty weak all in all but the class does have some high points.

level 2 gets you invocations - great for multiclass. Either you can go Eldritch blast agonising blast to have an effective attack so you can focus your other multiclassing efforts on fluff and out of combat activities (or on benefits that may take a few levels to come online). Alternatively you can use the invocations to represent abilities that are part of a broader character concept (knowledge cleric that can read all writing for example).

Level 3 gets you an archetype. If you are multiclassing then you probably don't want to stop pact of the blade here but it is ok to pick up tome of secrets. With tome of secrets and eldritch blast you have combat and out of combat utility covered and you can pretty much flesh out your other levels to match your character concept while remaining strong. You also get two short rest level 2 spell slots which can add a lot of utility to classes like Paladin and Ranger that have a shortage of slots.

Level 5 is a big level for all classes. There are a few treats here - in the invocations mainly. You can get an extra attack as pact of the blade or become invisible at will - both useful for building some multiclass characters. You know level 3 spells and have the slots to cast them; a level where spells can take a step up in power.

Level 11 is a bit of a warlock peak. Level 9 saw maximum spell level from your slots and level 11 gives you 3 per short rest. Warlock casting is limited mainly because your total maximum spell power you can output in the hardest of encounters is much lower than other casters. With three spell slots your flexibility in responding to the toughest of challenges increases massively. At this level you get an arcarnum - like a weaker version of a spell slot; you cant cast lower level spells out of it and it has a choice of 1 spell you can cast. Still level 6 spells are not to be rejected.

Level 12 is the last point I would stay in warlock if you want to multiclass and even then only if you want pact of the blade to be able to add CHA to damage. At this point if you multiclass it is because you want to do most damage in melee and other classes boost that more.



To be honest if you think of a warlock as a caster like a sorc, wizard cleric or bard you will be disappointed. its casting from slots is significantly behind what they can do but it is compensated for with higher at will damage (making multiple attacks per action to do martial character amounts of damage is their thing) and invocations that give a lot of at will utility. Think of them like a ranged monk - a martial character with some short rest abilities tagged on to add extra effects and battlefield control.

[Douche]

You just refuted yourself though. If Mystic Arcanum is 'equal to' basic spellcasting, that automatically means you get no net value out of the feature; it's what other spell-casting classes get for free. This means other class features other spell-casters get count towards a net positive over Warlocks, nevermind the enormus net negative Warlocks hit themselves with if they need to spend a slot downgrading without value (such as using Hex at a 5th level), or the fact most spells scale EXTREMELY poorly at high levels. Wasting a full lvl 3-4 slot to gain 2d6 or 2d8 damage, jesus christ the waste is real.

Meanwhile, we don't even want to talk about the fact 5e is designed around 6 battle encounters per day, and you'll be stuck with 6 slots, period, until level 11. So from level 1->10 you get to use 1 spell per fight. I guess if that's your idea of fun and engaging gameplay, be my guest.

People seem to be forgetting that warlocks get all their slots back per short rest.

Wizard needs to complete a long rest to get his spell slots back. Warlock can be downright reckless with his spell slots compared to wizards. When you're in the depths of a dungeon, wizard is gonna be wringing his hands nervously at the 2 spells he has remaining, while the warlock sits down for half an hour to have lunch and he's all ready for combat again.

[Finieous]

A lot of the guides I'm looking at recommend higher levels like 11 and 17 for Mystic Arcanum, which begs me to ask the question: just how sweet is that one higher spell slot? Also Misty Escape at 6 looks kinda sweet, but again, anyone out there to say if it's worth it or not?


Foresight lasts all day, so one slot goes a long way.

[Gnaeus]

People seem to be forgetting that warlocks get all their slots back per short rest.

Wizard needs to complete a long rest to get his spell slots back. Warlock can be downright reckless with his spell slots compared to wizards. When you're in the depths of a dungeon, wizard is gonna be wringing his hands nervously at the 2 spells he has remaining, while the warlock sits down for half an hour to have lunch and he's all ready for combat again.

If I ever find the local DM who is giving us the recommended 2 short rests per day, my warlock will be thrilled. I call myself lucky if I can get 1 without being attacked in the middle of it. From playing with earlier edition DMs, all our fights seem to be one or 2 giant superencounters. But my congratulations if it works for you.

[eastmabl]

To be honest, Warlock value drops off hard after level 3 unless you plan to go very deep. At level 3 you have your cantrips, 6 lvl 2 spell slots, the pact boon, and 2 invocations. From 3 through level 11 all you get are slot lvl increases and a couple of extra invocations (which are also level dependant). Unless one plans on going to level 11 or deeper there's no reason to go past level 3.

Leveling your spell slots is undersold in this analysis. If you're not bumping your spell slots, you're probably looking at knowing utility/buff spells.

[Dalebert]

Just 3 in warlock (too late it seems) and the rest in sorcerer is a powerful combo and that's my latest character creation. That's basically the sorcerer capstone ability at level 6 since you can convert those two lock slots to sorcery points and then short rest and get them back. And it's powerful because you get two invocations and your pact benefits--a special familiar or tome. I'm leaning heavily toward tome to flesh out my spell choices with rituals. There are a lot of nice ones even in just the level 1 and 2 range.

[Tanarii]

Short-term necro :)


If I ever find the local DM who is giving us the recommended 2 short rests per day, my warlock will be thrilled. I call myself lucky if I can get 1 without being attacked in the middle of it. From playing with earlier edition DMs, all our fights seem to be one or 2 giant superencounters. But my congratulations if it works for you.
If the campaign you're in isn't using the default 5e Rest assumptions, and you didn't know that when picking your class, I'd say have a word with your DM. Because it'd be fair for them to either house-rule something to bring your Warlock up in power (also Fighters, Monks and Rogues), or look at the Alternate Rest rules in the DMG, or let you choose to change your class.

If you knew going in that Short Rests would be at a premium, that's on you. :p

[Douche]

Short-term necro :)

I totally was reading old threads and replied, forgetting that this thread was on page 9 when I looked at it :smalltongue:

[DragonBaneDM]

I'm sorry I don't have much of an update for you guys! We actually just played a few hours ago. From what I can tell, the plan is still Warlock 5 and then Sorcerer for the rest of the game? Could be wrong, but the advice that resonated with me is that there really is no "wrong" choice.

[Dalebert]

Well at least you're not missing out on ASIs by stopping at 4. It seems a slightly odd place to stop as opposed to 5th but not massively so.