So does anyone still think Miko is sane?

[Jawajoey]

After this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0460.html]460[/URL], is there anyone out there who still thinks that Miko's fine?

I think it's pretty much proven at this point.
At best, she's temporarily insane.
At worst, she's a complete moron.

The latter case is unlikely. She's certainly proven to be resourceful, clever, and imaginative, even if a bit naive and not terribly smart.
The former case is the best Miko lovers can hope for, unless the craziness is what they like about her, I don't know. (But personally, I'm not counting on redemption. She isn't even at the point where she can consider that there might be something to redeem herself from, let alone suddenly overcome a mental disability.)
And of course, there are other options. She might be irredeemably insane, or something else in between.

In any case, she's suffering from unhealthy levels of narcissism. And due to her abilities, she is a dangerous threat to a great many people.

You simply can't seriously use logic like [URL="http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0460.html) without being mentally unfit, an idiot, or a [scrubbed]


But there is good news. Despite having gone mad, she's still thinking in an ordered fashion, so there may be hope for her yet. And I'm very glad to find out that she has reasonable priorities (although not because of reason, she's concerned only with faith, another bad sign)

[Spiryt]

" Blessed (:smalleek:) is the mind too small for doubt" - This quotation fits her well i'm afraid...

[Mordaedil]

After 460, is there anyone out there who still thinks that Miko's fine?

I think it's pretty much proven at this point.
At best, she's temporarily insane.
At worst, she's a complete moron.

The latter case is unlikely. She's certainly proven to be resourceful, clever, and imaginative, even if a bit naive and not terribly smart.
The former case is the best Miko lovers can hope for, unless the craziness is what they like about her, I don't know. (But personally, I'm not counting on redemption. She isn't even at the point where she can consider that there might be something to redeem herself from, let alone suddenly overcome a mental disability.)
And of course, there are other options. She might be irredeemably insane, or something else in between.

In any case, she's suffering from unhealthy levels of narcissism. And due to her abilities, she is a dangerous threat to a great many people.

You simply can't seriously use logic like this without being mentally unfit, an idiot, or a religious fundamentalist (although that in turn requires that you be either mentally unfit or an idiot)


But there is good news. Despite having gone mad, she's still thinking in an ordered fashion, so there may be hope for her yet. And I'm very glad to find out that she has reasonable priorities (although not because of reason, she's concerned only with faith, another bad sign)

Couldn't see your whole post, here it is.

[Atheist_Cleric]

For my answer. And now....man falling off a cliff.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO-splat-

[Freelance Henchman]

You simply can't seriously use logic like this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0460.html) without being mentally unfit, an idiot, or a religious fundamentalist (although that in turn requires that you be either mentally unfit or an idiot)

I'm not sure if your "religious fundamentalist = idiot" argument really holds water, after all, people like Isaac Newton and surely others of great mental capacity were also extremely religious.

But I know what you mean. Miko does seem completely unhinged in this comic, and it will be pretty much up to whatever voice in her head is speaking at that time what she will do in the throne room. I hope she does not decide that this so-called "ghost-martyr Soon" is some sort of Sapphire Guard impostor and way more evil than Xykon and Redcloak, and somehow disposes of the guy, sealing the fate of everything.

[nimby]

She's perfectly fine, she just has a low spot check when it comes to the bigger picture.

[Imrix.]

I think she's sane, but roughly speaking. She's an obvious fanatic, and a combination of complete stubbornness a sheltered life is keeping her from accepting several important facts. However, actually mentally damaged is a bit of step too far, I think.

Mark 'er down as borderline, I say, and get the girl divine intervention to slap 'er round the noggin a few times until she can tell what's what!

[Haruspex]

Maybe not insane per se. Possibly deluded as well as prone to snap judgements. Definitely a loose cannon in her unstable state of mind. She did attack Hinjo, so it's unclear how she views the other members of the Sapphire Guard or even the people of the city.

[Kaliban]

I hope she does not decide that this so-called "ghost-martyr Soon" is some sort of Sapphire Guard impostor and way more evil than Xykon and Redcloak, and somehow disposes of the guy, sealing the fate of everything.

Well, knowing her, I'd bet on this.
"Undead Paladins? What evil is this! The Twelve want me to destroy this monstruosity!"

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

I don't think she's been sane as long as she's been in the comic.

[Ben7el]

I think she is sane, a little angry and unstable, but still sane and good.


If you want my reasons, pm me.

[ZeroNumerous]

Continuing the line of Warhammer quotes..

"Sanity is for the WEAK!"

[Castamir]

"An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded"

[Freelance Henchman]

Well, knowing her, I'd bet on this.
"Undead Paladins? What evil is this! The Twelve want me to destroy this monstruosity!"

Not that she has any apparent way to do that, unless her Monk Fists count as magical weapons or something. They took her swords away apparently.

[bluish_wolf]

Not that she has any apparent way to do that, unless her Monk Fists count as magical weapons or something. They took her swords away apparently.

Unless those swords the Sapphire Guard were using are magical. She can just pick up one of them.

[VariaVespasa]

Well if she gets to the throneroom there are lots of magic weapons lying around there that she can borrow.

But I think perhaps you underestimate her insanity, and Redcloaks intelligence- If she decided the spirits are abominations, and Redcloak demonstrates how they can be killed by channelling negative energy and has a reasonable line of patter to go with it and provide some justification, you just know that she's shortsighted and batpoop insane enough that grabbing the idea and trying to channel some negative energy for such a "good" end might well seem justifiable to her... And (further) down she goes, if so. That might even qualify as friendly contact.

Or she might be certain enough of Redcloaks naughtiness and driven enough by their previous meeting to ignore anything he says and just gut him out of hand. Or just hack him down from behind if she surprises him. Or maybe she encounters the OotS before reaching the throne room. Or maybe something else entirely.

Only time will tell what Mr Giant has in mind. But if she reaches the throneroom she will become armed with suitable weapons very shortly if combat ensues, if she isnt armed already by then.

[BisectedBrioche]

Some of her behaviour seems a little sociopathic (real Anti-Social Personality Disorder, not SotL psychopathy) to me .

[Dancing Cthulhu]

For some reason when I see Miko in this state it makes me think of Justice Archons gone astray (from the example given in MMIV).

[Sir_Norbert]

#460 hasn't told us anything new that we didn't already know.

Miko believes passionately that the world is unfolding according to the Twelve Gods' plan and, therefore, anything she doesn't understand must be ordained by Them for some greater good. Arthur C Clarke equates religion with insanity (as do you, judging from your post), but this is an internet forum and we have to be more tolerant.

Also, from a story point of view, taking the easy way out by saying "oh, she's just insane" cheapens the story, makes it much less interesting. The whole point of what Rich has done with the Miko story arc is to show how someone could, starting out with the best motives but a few rather large character flaws (stubbornness principally) end up as a fascinatingly unpredictable loose cannon who has already done a lot to help the cause of evil.

Go away and read Othello if you don't understand this.

[Agalyon]

Miko's thoughts in a easy to sum up translation

Miko is not crazy, everyone ELSE is! obviously the twelve gods want her to smite everyone, then she will have fulfilled her duty and reside to the gods kingdom where she will rule as a lesser/demi-god due to her power and performance of the gods will in a world of corruption.

or she is just crazy, but WHERE is the proof of anything like that?

[VariaVespasa]

but this is an internet forum and we have to be more tolerant.

Um, have you BEEN on any internet forums??? Tolerant is not a word often used to describe them... :P THIS forum, sure, but forums in general?... :P

Actually the thing thats giving me serious "WTF??!?!" vibes about the current Miko development and the Linear Guild escape is the whole "ANTI MAGIC cell prison being damaged by magic... Intellectually I know it can be reasonably argued that the cells only prevent magic being used inside them, and arent themselves immune to magic, and thats perfectly logical and reasonable but for some reason its still bugging me badly. :(

[Professor Tanhauser]

What if her gods really did arrange her escape?

[Kaliban]

... The whole point of what Rich has done with the Miko story arc is to show how someone could, starting out with the best motives but a few rather large character flaws (stubbornness principally) end up as a fascinatingly unpredictable loose cannon who has already done a lot to help the cause of evil.

...

Her main character flaw is not stubborness, but lack of humility - or excessive delusions of grandor and self righteousness, as you like it.
Typical " badly played paladin excess" and tautological thinking process.

[Ladorak]

Go away and read Othello if you don't understand this.

Othello had the good grace to kill himself when he realised what he did. Mind you Othello only had to put up with one Iago, poor old Miko's got Belker, Greenhilt, Hinjo, Shojo, Sabine...

Look, saying Miko is insane due to being devout is spitting on a lot of people's deeply held beliefs (Not mine, but that's beside the point) which frankly is not cricket and against the forum rules.

Miko's not insane, she's just a wee bit more focused than your average sword weilding smite machine.

Edit: Oh, I forgot my warhammer quote... 'You accuse me of being a madman? What right have you to judge what is sane and what is not?'

[Glaivemaster]

I think she's still sane, and I think that she's taken a very sudden change of direction in this comic. Miko is no longer Miko as she used to be: Lawful 'Good' Paladin, following her beliefs (can't blame someone for that). Now she's fallen, and has become Lawful(?) 'Evil' warrior, following her own will, and making excuses about the "will of the gods"

I don't think you can judge this new Miko by what the old Miko did. She's completely changed in this comic, and she doesn't believe in the things she used to. Now she's out purely for herself, and for revenge against the people who put her where she is

[evileeyore]

You simply can't seriously use logic like this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0460.html) without being mentally unfit, an idiot, or a religious fundamentalist (although that in turn requires that you be either mentally unfit or an idiot.That is highly insulting and only shows your lack of philosophical competance.

Not that I could ever be consider a Religious Fundamentalist (not by a long shot) however that does not mean they are crazy or idiots, just that I and they have different standards.

As for Miko, I believe she is actually becoming somewhat saner. Yes she is still unreasonably blaming Roy for her failings, however I expect that to change. She is using a bit more deductive reasoning where her Faith in the Dieties is concerned, which will likely prove to be a downfall. Gods do not like to be second geussed (atleast not Greco deities...).

[Spiryt]

Sir Norbert -
THe problem with MIko is that SHE is copletly untolerant and close minded-
She won't even try to understand that not everybody follows Twelve Gods, and care about her "greater good". And beliefe that she ( why she?) is chosen one of Gods and that they are guiding her - even when they "cut her off (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0407.html)", in, lets say, visible way, is, insanity. And/or deadly Pride.



Also, from a story point of view, taking the easy way out by saying "oh, she's just insane" cheapens the story, makes it much less interesting. The whole point of what Rich has done with the Miko story arc is to show how someone could, starting out with the best motives but a few rather large character flaws (stubbornness principally) end up as a fascinatingly unpredictable loose cannon who has already done a lot to help the cause of evil.
This is 100% true

[dehro]

this is becoming more and more dark sith like...

:thog: the path to evil be plastered with good intentions and paladinic entrails..

can't help but thinking that thog's something like the dumb brother of Yoda..

[Kesnit]

Actually the thing thats giving me serious "WTF??!?!" vibes about the current Miko development and the Linear Guild escape is the whole "ANTI MAGIC cell prison being damaged by magic... Intellectually I know it can be reasonably argued that the cells only prevent magic being used inside them, and arent themselves immune to magic, and thats perfectly logical and reasonable but for some reason its still bugging me badly. :(

I didn't think the cell was damaged by magic, but by a physical effect caused by magic. (The magic caused the tower to "rattle" and the bar to crack.)

[LordVader]

She's totally, hopelessly deluded. She still thinks the gods were with her after she Fell. She still thinks that she's acting in accordance with their will.

[Spiryt]

this is becoming more and more dark sith like...

:thog: the path to evil be plastered with good intentions and paladinic entrails..

can't help but thinking that thog's something like the dumb brother of Yoda..

Nice notice!

When V will achieve his/hers ultimate power, he obvioulsy wont achieve it for free... His/Her deeds will pull him straight in to the Dark Side. V's cloak will turn all black, his skin will become old and schorched, fingers will bring to life even more lightnings, and Miko will become his/her fallen paladin in Black, dreadful armor...
It already began (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0179.html)...

[Tokiko Mima]

I don't think she's that crazy. She would be in our world, but in OotS-verse the Gods DO intervene on the behalf of mortals quite a bit. True, she is operating under the assumption that everything is a sign from the Twelve Gods, but she still more devoted to the defense of Azure City than revenge on Roy Greenhilt. I'd take that as a good sign. Last time we saw her that wasn't the case.

[Olibarro]

Miko's entire life as a paladin was predicated on the notion that she is granted fantastic powers as long as she continues to support the will of her gods.

When those powers are taken away for not following their will, she has a slight mental break, but rather than finally face that she has done something wrong (as clearly indicated by the loss of her powers combined with everything she stood for up to that point), she decides that she has done only good, and this is just the gods' quirky way of guiding her actions now.

That sort of thinking has progressed up to strip #460, where she has now decided that whatever she feels like doing must be the will of the gods, because she is able to do it.

In her current state, her free will = the will of the gods.

There is no other interpretation of all of this except that she is delusional. And getting worse.

[CharlieRock]

Not that she has any apparent way to do that, unless her Monk Fists count as magical weapons or something. They took her swords away apparently.
4th level monk ability: ki strike

"The Twelve must want me to be a Blackguard. They could have stopped me with their divine power."

[teratorn]

Durkon also sees Thor's hand in everything and is as big a fanatic as Miko. And he was also wrong about Thor's wishes (in the confrontation against Miko). But I can't help but feeling that Miko worships the the wrong deities. Who knows, had she been a paladin for Thor and things would have been different (she would spend most of time smiting trees though).

Yet her priorities are right. Between killing the bird-feeder or protecting the throne she chose the last option.

[Spiryt]

She would be in our world, but in OotS-verse the Gods DO intervene on the behalf of mortals quite a bit.

I won't be so sure - this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0407.html) is only intervention we have seen for now.
It's quite clear that they intervene in specific moments - for example when thry think that specific mortal no longer deserve their grace.
They don't seem to tell mortals what to do. Miko believe that they do, and it's nothing wrong. Or rather, it was nothing wrong, beacuse now it's like i said insanity and/or conceit.

P.S. Hope you get what i wanted to say. My english is probaly still too frail to express such things :smallbiggrin:

[The_Weirdo]

Go away and read Othello if you don't understand this.

Even if you DO understand this, read Othello. It's good! ;)

[Glaivemaster]

She's totally, hopelessly deluded. She still thinks the gods were with her after she Fell. She still thinks that she's acting in accordance with their will.

I don't think she really believes that they are on her side at all. I see two options here:

1) The fact that the Gods frowned on what she did came as a great shock to somebody who's every previous action was based on the belief that what she was doing was exactly what they wanted. The realisation that her entire life, and entire belief system, was misjudged and wrong came as a massive shock to her, drastically changing her outlook on life. Now she's realised that she can go her own way, and do what she wants, and uses the "will of the gods" as a vague justification for what she personally wants. After all, she's been doing that her entire life, and old habits die hard. (Hey, she might even realise the irony of what she is saying)

2) She is deluding herself into believing that the Gods are willing her to perform these actions. On some deep, personal level, she understands that what she is doing is wrong, and goes against everything that she has been taught. But she can't accept that. She has to keep repeating the "will of the gods" idea, not to convince others, and not because she believes it herself, but because she wants to believe it. She needs to believe that the gods are guiding her, in order to continue with what she wants to do, because her entire life in the past has been based on such things, and accepting that they were wrong is like accepting that her life was worthless and pointless.

Either way, she knows, in some way, however small, that what she is doing is wrong. The only difference between those two points is whether or not she wants to admit it to herself. I don't think that she really believes that the gods are guiding her any more though. Not like she used to.

[Gavin Sage]

You simply can't seriously use logic like this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0460.html) without being mentally unfit, an idiot, or a religious fundamentalist (although that in turn requires that you be either mentally unfit or an idiot)


But there is good news. Despite having gone mad, she's still thinking in an ordered fashion, so there may be hope for her yet. And I'm very glad to find out that she has reasonable priorities (although not because of reason, she's concerned only with faith, another bad sign)

I'll thank you to not make bigoted side remarks about the intelligence of religous persons thank you.

Otherwise the amusing thing is that in this small instance Miko may be on to something. While obviously things would be better if she had never killed Shojo, she is now well set up for redeeming actions, as she is a high level character heading for two drained casters. Her "great destiny" may well be to die in defense of the gate, atoning for her actions before somewhat and wrapping up her character in a box we can feel somewhat good about.

The comic does establish that while she is clearly a zealot operating under horribly flawed assumptions, her alignment has not shifted.

[Bronnko]

Miko is no longer Miko as she used to be: Lawful 'Good' Paladin, following her beliefs (can't blame someone for that). Now she's fallen, and has become Lawful(?) 'Evil' warrior, following her own will, and making excuses about the "will of the gods"

I like at least half the sound of this. Law compels her to follow her prime duty - protecting the Gate - followed closely by her compulsion to mete out 'justice' as she sees it against the Stick. I'd suggest, though, that she might well be Neutral, as I could still imagine her performing some kind of Good act (self-sacrifice, e.g.) as needed to fulfil her duty.

But that raises a question (possibly already addressed, sorry!): was her loss of Paladinhood, obviously the result of killing her Lord, an indication of an Evil act, or a Chaotic one? Remember that she believed him to be corrupt - and so interpreted her duty as having to kill him (vice removing him in some less violent way, but that's a militant order for you!). Correctly or incorrectly judged - and a saner Paladin would have tried to detect Evil, eh? - she faithfully followed her belief... and killing Evil, even in her own mind, is patently not an Evil act. However, the fact that she killed her Lord, going against his established Authority and outside the bounds of Azure City law, was certainly Chaotic - and might have been the critical event.

Heh, in either case, she's delusional, and - using reality ("the Gods haven't stopped me!") to bolster her delusional arguments - more firmly convinced than ever of her *lack* of delusion. I'm not a head doctor, but I'd call that some kind of nuts. Delusion alone, though, was not enough to cause her Fall - one can imagine a Paladin who thought himself to be, say, a friendly gnome librarian, caught up accidentally in a quest for Holy books, keeping his powers as he fights bad guys for good folios.

Or something.

[Ermete]

Well, I think that "blind" could fit... Frankly I find her scaring...but I think she is not a "religious fanatic" ("fundamentalism" is an improper term) in the common use of the term...she is a "fanatic" of herself. I explain: she deliberately interprete the world around her in the way that could fit to the fact that [I]she is the "elect"[I]. for Miko, every single event in the world is releted to her. for Miko, she is the key to interprete the world. So every difficulty is for her a "test" from the gods, and every positive event is a sign from the gods to express their aproval. We can say that she affected by paranoia and neurosis.

[evileeyore]

I won't be so sure - this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0407.html) is only intervention we have seen for now.
It's quite clear that they intervene in specific moments - for example when thry think that specific mortal no longer deserve their grace.
They don't seem to tell mortals what to do. Miko believe that they do, and it's nothing wrong. Or rather, it was nothing wrong, beacuse now it's like i said insanity and/or conceit.

P.S. Hope you get what i wanted to say. My english is probaly still too frail express to such things :smallbiggrin:While your English is a bit poor, I get you just fine.

However your still wrong:
The Gods must be Busy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0040.html)
Seeing Signs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0201.html)
The Crayons of Time: The Snarl (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html)
Non-startling Revelations (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0292.html)
If a Druid Falls in the City... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0353.html)
Heck of a Fight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html)

... and those are just the ones I remembered and could look up in five minutes.

So, yeah, you could say the Gods tend to intervene, atleast the Northlander Gods do.

[Dausuul]

I think she is sane, a little angry and unstable, but still sane and good.


If you want my reasons, pm me.

I, on the other hand, consider her a dangerous loony who is currently Chaotic Neutral and careening toward Evil.

[spectheintro]

I'm not sure if your "religious fundamentalist = idiot" argument really holds water, after all, people like Isaac Newton and surely others of great mental capacity were also extremely religious.

Isaac Newton was not a religious fundamentalist. I think the word he was looking for was "fanatic," not "fundamentalist," but in any case, Isaac Newton != either.


That is highly insulting and only shows your lack of philosophical competance.

How so? Religious fundamentalism is often taken to mean either: 1.) a strict and literal interpretation of a religion's holy book (something most theologians never do,) or 2.) an anti-modernist movement in any particular religion. Again, I think he *meant* fanatic, but that doesn't make the statement much less meaningful; religious fundamentalists are basically the poster children of blind belief, which strongly goes against the spirit of most of the holy books I've read.


I'll thank you to not make bigoted side remarks about the intelligence of religous persons thank you.

Last time I checked, religious persons != religious fundamentalists. The original statement really wasn't that controversial. "Fanatic" is a better fit but "fundamentalist" still works, and neither disparage religion in general.


Durkon also sees Thor's hand in everything and is as big a fanatic as Miko.

You are right on the first point but gravely mistaken on the second. Durkon's character is radically different from Miko's: he does not have her arrogance and he is compassionate, which prevents him from being a fanatic. He is highly religious, but he has yet to even touch on fanaticism; for one, he hasn't murdered anyone. He hasn't even tried to force his personal beliefs on the rest of the party; the worst he has done was to submit to Miko (who, at the time, was a paladin and an agent of good) because he believed it to be Thor's will. He did not attack his party members in an effort to subdue them, nor did he treat them any less kindly for their decisions. (Contrast this with Miko's perversion of the paladin code and generally crazy demeanor.) A fanatic Durkon is not.

[Spiryt]

While your English is a bit poor, I get you just fine.

However your still wrong:

...

So, yeah, you could say the Gods tend to intervene, atleast the Northlander Gods do.

I'm not sure... Your examples just shown that they are granting their priest spells ec.
Only real intervention was in your first example and it was obviously a joke.

I obvoiusly exaggerated it, but even here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html) Thor said that they are bending the Rules. So Gods at least shouldn't interfere in too trivial matters.

[Curunir]

I, on the other hand, consider her a dangerous loony who is currently Chaotic Neutral and careening toward Evil.


You know, I still think she is lawful

I copy the allignemnts from wikipedia:


Lawful Good

Lawful Good is known as the "Saintly" or "Crusader" alignment. A lawful good character typically acts with compassion, and always with honour and a sense of duty. A lawful good nation would consist of a well-organized government that works for the benefit of its citizens. Lawful good characters include righteous knights, all paladins and most dwarves. Lawful good creatures include the noble silver dragons.

Lawful Good characters, especially paladins, may sometimes find themselves faced with the dilemma of whether to obey Law or Good when the two conflict - for example, upholding a sworn oath when it would lead innocents to come to harm - or conflicts between two orders, such as between their religious law and the law of the local ruler.

We can agree, that this is not Miko



awful Neutral is called the "Judge" or "Disciplined" alignment. A lawful neutral character typically believes strongly in Lawful concepts such as honour, order, rules and tradition, and often follows a personal code. A Lawful Neutral society would typically enforce strict laws to maintain social order, and place a high value on traditions and historical precedent. Examples of Lawful Neutral characters include a soldier who always follows orders, a judge or enforcer that adheres mercilessly to the word of the law, and a disciplined monk. Lawful Neutral creatures also include the Modrons, a strict hierarchy of incredible extraplanar constructs who embody the very concept of order.

Characters of this alignment are neutral with regard to Good and Evil. This does not mean that Lawful Neutral characters are amoral or immoral, or do not have a moral compass; but simply that their moral considerations come a distant second to what their code, tradition or law dictates. They typically have a strong ethical code, but it is primarily guided by their system of belief, not by a commitment to Good or Evil.

The part about personal code is almost right but Miko still has strong feelings toward the things she thinks are good or evil.



Lawful Evil

Lawful Evil is referred to as the "Dominator" or "Diabolic" alignment. Characters of this alignment show a combination of desirable and undesirable traits: while they typically obey their superiors and keep their word, they care nothing for the rights and freedoms of other individuals. Examples of this alignment include tyrants, Demons, organized criminals, and soldiers who follow the chain of command but enjoy killing for its own sake.

I think that this is not, what Miko is or is going to be.

My opinion is that Miko is NG who thinks that she is LG. That's all there is. She thinks that she is good and as she is trying to achive her good deeds she goes further and further from the actual good.
Miko thinks that she has a destiny. It will be intresting to see, hwat happens, when she sees that other people don't think she's special.

[GoC]

She's insane.:smallfrown:

[wootdavid]

She's insane.:smallfrown:

She's insane.:smallsmile:

[jindra34]

She's insane.:smallsmile:

She's insane.:smallbiggrin:

[Spiryt]

She's insane.:smallbiggrin:

Who's insane ? :smallconfused:

[Daedalus73]

Who's insane ? :smallconfused:

She's insane! :miko:

[teratorn]

A fanatic Durkon is not.
You are confusing fanatic with being evil or killing stuff. A fanatic is simply someone who puts his god's wishes above everything else, friends family, reason. It's not always bad, his god may be one of self sacriffice or of doing only good deeds.

Miko's gods ask her to kill stuff and smite evil. Thor asks Durkon to kill trees and drink beer. Durkon left his granpappy to whom he was greatly attached because Thor ordered him to. He refused an order from his party leader, and surrendered to an enemy in a hour of need because it was not the wish of his god. He's deeply fanatic.

[jindra34]

Who's insane ? :smallconfused:

She is.:smallamused:

[RobbyPants]

She's perfectly fine, she just has a low spot check when it comes to the bigger picture.
LOL. :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, her biggest problem is that she has taken a very narrow minded approach to the problem. As Roy's pointed out numerous times, she will believe anything that supports her beliefs, and will assume anything that contradicts it is fabricated. I believe the old saying goes something like:


I've made up my mind. Don't confuse me with the facts! :smalltongue:

I also love her rationalle of "if the gods didn't want me to do it they would stop me." I guess in a fantasy world, where the gods intervine, this might be a somewhat more valid view point...

[Spiryt]

She is.:smallamused:

Aaaaaahhh. She.

[spectheintro]

A fanatic is simply someone who puts his god's wishes above everything else, friends family, reason. It's not always bad, his god may be one of self sacriffice or of doing only good deeds.

This is going to get fairly nuanced. "Fanaticism" has a clearly negative connotation associated with it. One is "principled" if he/she sticks to his/her guns despite having logical reasons not to do so; one is "fanatical" when there is absolutely no rational thought applied to one's actions with regard to said guns.

Merriam-Webster defined fanatic as the following: "a person with an extreme and uncritical enthusiasm or zeal, as in religion or politics," and also "A person marked or motivated by an extreme, unreasoning enthusiasm, as for a cause." The key here in both is the idea of critical thought--we have been shown numerous times that Miko fails to ever critically examine her own conclusions; she just believes whatever she wants. We don't have a great deal of evidence for Durkon in either scenario, but during the fight with Miko he's quite rational about why he doesn't want to fight her. He's willing to discuss it reasonably, whereas Miko just slashes away and asks questions later.


Miko's gods ask her to kill stuff and smite evil. Thor asks Durkon to kill trees and drink beer. Durkon left his granpappy to whom he was greatly attached because Thor ordered him to. He refused an order from his party leader, and surrendered to an enemy in a hour of need because it was not the wish of his god. He's deeply fanatic.

Miko believes her gods ask her to kill stuff and smite evil. Judging by Hinjo's demeanor, the Twelve are not nearly as zealous in their pursuit of the destruction of evil as Miko makes them out to be. As for Durkon, none of those examples prove his fanaticism, just his devotion, because he acted rationally in each case. (Maybe not in his best self-interest, but that's not the definition of "rational.") He had clear reasons for believing what he did, was willing to argue them peacefully, and is also willing to change his opinion and admit he was wrong. It's Durkon's ability to question his own conclusions that keeps him from being a fanatic.

[jindra34]

Aaaaaahhh. She.

Yes she is insane.

[Markusdragon]

She just needs to learn that she's not the messiah, she's a very naughty girl.

[zimri]

I have a very deep opinion on how some people are painting "fundamentalists" but as we are not supposed to discuss RL religion (nor insult those who adhere or not to them) I will bite my tongue and well restrain myself...... somewhere someone is rolling on the floor ... Zimri restrained himself.

[Kreistor]

Miko is not necessarily insane. She may be headed there, but she hasn't reached that point yet.

Miko's problem is hubris, and she provides more evidence of it in 460. "I know you have a grand destiny in store for me". These are not the words of humble servants of the gods. These are the words of a burgeoning megalomaniac.

Miko lost sight of the will of the gods in order to enact her view of what their will for what she thinks their destiny for her is. She blinds herself to their true signs and sees the minutiae that have nothing to do with their true design but support her own beliefs of what that destiny must be.

She is, ultimately, delusional, but there is still method in her choices. She is sane, but headed for the self-delusion of schizophrenia.

[jindra34]

I have a very deep opinion on how some people are painting "fundamentalists" but as we are not supposed to discuss RL religion (nor insult those who adhere or not to them) I will bite my tongue and well restrain myself...... somewhere someone is rolling on the floor ... Zimri restrained himself.

ah... the return of sanity such a wonderful sight... too bad Miko cannot follow your example...

[wootdavid]

She just needs to learn that she's not the messiah, she's a very naughty girl.

Aahahaha. That's better than Sabine's "I got better".

[zimri]

ah... the return of sanity such a wonderful sight... too bad Miko cannot follow your example...

Yeah whats up with that I went and did the "lawful" thing and it didn't even hurt much ... must go do something completely random to re-adjust my alignment back to where it should be before this gets out of hand.

[teratorn]

It's Durkon's ability to question his own conclusions that keeps him from being a fanatic.
Letting your allies getting beaten and nearly killed because you think rain is a message from your god is using reason? My guess on what's going through Durkon's mind:

«Oh boy, we're getting a beating, it can't be. Wait, it's raining, it must be Thor's will. Better give up.»

It wasn't Thor's will. His conclusions, his reasoning, everything there was faulty and insane. All of them could have died there. Reasoning only came later when Miko called Roy an evil doer, and used smite evil.

Durkon believes he is somewhat special in the eyes of Thor and that Thor gives him signs. Rain and cracks in bars it's all the same.

[Tolkien_Freak]

I'm not entirely sure she's sane, but I do realise that she is, wittingly or unwittingly, doing what the gods probably would want her to do - i.e. doing something about the gate.

We'll see what happens with her sanity soon.

[Aris Katsaris]

Talking about whether Miko is a fanatic in regards to her religion is kinda missing the point IMO -- Miko is a fanatic concerning her *own* self-view.

When the gods self-evidently strip her of her paladin-hood, she doesn't even give it a minute's though that it might be a sign she was in the wrong -- but she takes the tiniest crack in her cell bars as a sign that she was in the right.

(sidenote: she might very well have accepted the latter as a sign that she's meant to leave the jail by the fact that it became possible -- but it was a contradictory leap of judgement to her *own* benefit when she decided that her earlier course of action was also right, even though she was stopped at it.

If she was "fanatical" the way Durkon can be said to be, she'd have accepted divine intervention against her as evidence that she was in the wrong -- like Durkon did.)

Miko seems to me to be speeding from Lawful Good to Lawful Evil without even passing through anything neutral in between. She's not yet there, but I can't see what might possibly stop her course, not when she's so persistent in only hearing the echo of her own thoughts.

[Magistrate]

I think she's sane, but roughly speaking. She's an obvious fanatic, and a combination of complete stubbornness a sheltered life is keeping her from accepting several important facts. However, actually mentally damaged is a bit of step too far, I think.

Mark 'er down as borderline, I say, and get the girl divine intervention to slap 'er round the noggin a few times until she can tell what's what!

But you see, the problem here is Divine Intervention DID smack her around a bit, or else she wouldn't have lost her powers. What more needs to be done? Nine deadly plagues? Does she need to be smited by her own Gods and have her soul brought before them in council so they can both inform and judge her directly? Call the Gods callous if you want, but there is only so far you can go. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink and at this rate Miko is growing more and more compromised, at which point they've given up on her as a lost cause.

And thus is the inherent problem with playing a faith-based class. Miko should've opted for the secondary Paladin option, where their powers are drawn from their own strength of purpose and righteousness. :smallwink:

[Miklus]

I see Miko as someone who is unable to express her desires. It may well be rooted in childhood and the strict paladin code. She is oppressed and inhibited to a point where she does not even have a sexuality. She still HAS desire, but they are subconsious.

She wants to kill Belkar (understandibly)
She wants to kill roy (after his rejection of her)
She wants to escape prison (to do the above)

But she can not express these desires, not even to herself. So her mind finds a detour: The Twelve Gods. She starts to look for signs. A cracked prison cell bar will do. Her wish to escape prison becomes the Gods wish for her to escape prison.

Aaaaaand yes, She is nuts :smallsmile: If she could acknoledge her own desires and learn to express them in words, she might get better.

This is good writing by the Giant, I like this nutty Miko subplot.

[Aris Katsaris]

Letting your allies getting beaten and nearly killed because you think rain is a message from your god is using reason?

Surrendering to a Lawful Good adversary, who's there to bring you in to answer criminal charges, is indeed using reason.


It wasn't Thor's will. His conclusions, his reasoning, everything there was faulty and insanne. All of them could have died there.

They could have done worse than died, they could have killed an innocent representative of the Lawful Good.


Durkon believes he is somewhat special in the eyes of Thor and that Thor gives him signs. Rain and cracks in bars it's all the same.

Durkon believes that Thor gives all his followers signs, in the mode that he typically does, as a fact -- and he is willing to listen to them, even when they tell him he and his are in the wrong.

Miko refuses to listen to the obvious signs against her (the gods stripping her of her paladinhood) in favour of the tiny signs that support her preexisting beliefs and high opinion of herself.

[the_tick_rules]

by our legal system she legally sane, but she has a few screws loose.

[Spiryt]

They could have done worse than died, they could have killed an innocent representative of the Lawful Good.


And thus get rid of Miko problem before this problem appeared :smalltongue:

But yes, I agree that Durkon isn't fanatic. He sometimes appeared to be worst stick-in-ass than Miko, but most of his deeds are reasonable.
He wanted to hear Thors will beacuse he want to avoid bloodshed.
Difference beetwen him and Miko is obvious.
Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html) (panel 13) we see Durkon speaking with voice of reason. He can actualy admit, that he was wrong about what Thor wanted from him.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: Please remember that 1) real world religious discussions are Inappropriate Topics on this message board and not allowed here and 2) we have a broad definition of flaming that requires our posters to treat each other with greater respect than many other places. Please review the Rules of Posting (located at the top of every forum) if you have any questions about these!

[teratorn]

Surrendering to a Lawful Good adversary, who's there to bring you in to answer criminal charges, is indeed using reason.

That's what Roy questions, he understood and surrendered when his reason told him so, after Miko called him an evildoer. He didn't understand why Durkon did it before. Durkon acted because he saw a sign from his god (a wrong one by the way). There was no reason involved there, just luck.

Durkon is a good cleric from an easy going god, his job is mostly to heal. But I can see him falling to the dark side. If Durkon snaps he might start a holy war to banish human beer and force dwarven ale on everyone.

EDIT: Roland is right. It's DnD religion but some of this is too close to real world. I was just trying to point that Miko is not the only one to see signs from the gods, and be wrong about it.

[DreadArchon]

But you see, the problem here is Divine Intervention DID smack her around a bit, or else she wouldn't have lost her powers. ... You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink and at this rate Miko is growing more and more compromised, at which point they've given up on her as a lost cause.
Yeah, she's beyond justifying her actions through the gods now. I'd say she's definitely had a psychotic break. She's doing the "The voices! They speak only to me, and they say I should kill you!" thing at a very nearly literal level, despite the fact that "the voices" actually exist, but are telling her to stop.

Edit: I mean, a monk who thinks that her Sunder feats come from the gods that gave her paladinhood? Clearly she needs to re-read the PHB! :smallwink:

[dehro]

I think that we still have to see if durkon is or isn't a fanatic.
as it is, all his assumpions about thor's will are "for good", and he has never been put through a do or die ordeal where he had to chose between loyalty to roy and fellow OOTS members and will of his god.

as it is, he is probably due something by his god for leaving behind his relatives and go into a foreign land he despises, all for servitude, while Miko is more like "I'll go on long and useless trips not out of servitude but because this way I can give proof that I'm more worthy in the eyes of the gods than anyone else"
Durkon goes about out of servitude and obedience and is sometimes mislead by his assumpions and the cirumstances...Miko is driven mainly by her ego and goes to excesses to adapt the circumstances to the pattern of her thoughts. she doen't question her motivations and interpretations and doesn't care about the big picture or the real will of the gods, as long as she gets to proove her "holiness"

and yeah... Miko is an extremely sane nutjob. most psycotics have someone they blame for something and are subsequently very logical about how the construct the "case" against those who they blame, and stepping into action ...even when most of their "proofs" are delusions made up to fit into the "evil scheme" they are a victim of and give it substance.

[AkodoKoji]

What if her gods really did arrange her escape?

I have to agree with you. In the real world someone with her fanatical beliefs would be bordering on insanity. But this is Dnd. It is entirely possibly that the 12 gods did arrange her escape and do want her in the throne room to redeem herself. Of course whatever happens is going to be an awesome story.

Edit: Like someone else said. The anti-magic cells were damaged by magic. Sounds like godly intervention to me.

[jindra34]

I have to agree with you. In the real world someone with her fanatical beliefs would be bordering on insanity. But this is Dnd. It is entirely possibly that the 12 gods did arrange her escape and do want her in the throne room to redeem herself. Of course whatever happens is going to be an awesome story.

Edit: Like someone else said. The anti-magic cells were damaged by magic. Sounds like godly intervention to me.

The Gods... who only have intervened once... who could do a lot more to save the city... engineered Miko's escape... *bursts into laughter*

[Finn Solomon]

Ineffable indeed are the ways of the Gods.

[Lady_Orc]

Yes, I think she may be classified as insane at this point. She reminds me of one of those people who will calmly and with great conviction tell you that the Evil KGB have implanted radio transmitters in the heads of their next door neighbor, and that's why the neighbor's head needs to be chopped off with a rusty axe. You can't really reason with a person like that, no matter what argument you use to contradict them, they Know The Truth, and will twist everything said around to fit their notion of reality.

Miko may appear sane, if unpleasant, in another context, but when it comes to OOTS, her own Fall, and the will of the gods, I think she is utterly nuts. :smallsmile:

[Jher'c Kelborn]

Nah, I think she is fundamentally insane. Just cu-cu :smalltongue: . Gone. Mad. Crazy. With as much sanity as your average college-student :smallwink: .

Pretty insane, if you catch my drift!

[bosssmiley]

Ineffable indeed are the ways of the Gods.

Odin: "Oooh! Doggie!" (OOTS #453)
Yeah, ineffable. :smallwink:

As for Miko, I have to agree with Dread Archon above. The whole "The voices in my head tell me to kill you." thing generally doesn't denote the sanest of mindsets, either in RL (Joan of Arc) or OOTSworld (Miko).

As I see it, when she killed Lord S. Miko crossed the line from merely ball-busting and emotionally stunted ("The stick is a class feature.") into frothing, unable-to-admit-error fanaticism. At the far end of that particular spectrum grins and capers the spectre of outright 'socially non-functional, locked-in-a-soft-walled-room-for-the-safety-of-all' madness.

[Finn Solomon]

A Pratchett quote comes to mind, regarding the Deacon Vorbis from Small Gods. Something about a mind passing right through the waters of chaotic madness and reaching the dry land of cold, rational insanity on the other side. A working mind constructed out of insane components. Reminds me of Miss Miyazaki.

[spectheintro]

Letting your allies getting beaten and nearly killed because you think rain is a message from your god is using reason?

Are we reading the same comic? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html) Durkon surrenders AFTER seeing Miko in action; it's fairly obvious that he deduced her nature from what she did. All he says earlier is "Thor often uses thunderstorms as a blessing, or to serve as a warning." Nothing in that implies: "we must surrender to anything that moves." But it DOES make him more cautious in the encounter with Miko, and once he reasons it out he decided to surrender.


It wasn't Thor's will. His conclusions, his reasoning, everything there was faulty and insane. All of them could have died there. Reasoning only came later when Miko called Roy an evil doer, and used smite evil.

No, the exposition of his reasoning comes later, not the reasoning itself. Durkon was wrong, but that doesn't make his reasoning faulty or insane. You can have sound logic and still arrive at an incorrect conclusion, and Durkon is only half-wrong at that: Miko IS a paladin, but the loss of the battle was not pre-ordained. Believing that Thor is personally invested in him is not a fanatical belief; there is evidence in the comic to show that Durkon has spoken with Thor directly before. What would make it fanatical is if Durkon never questioned his conclusions, or admitted he was wrong--but Durkon does both of these. If they had all died, then Durkon would have made a fatal mistake. But it would have been an honest one, not a fanatical one. Look at his face during the episode: he is calm and collected. Contrast this with Miko, when she mistakenly executes Shojo. The latter is clearly fanatical; the former is just arriving at incorrect conclusions, but is clearly open to change.


Durkon believes he is somewhat special in the eyes of Thor and that Thor gives him signs. Rain and cracks in bars it's all the same.

Durkon and Miko aren't even in the same playing field. Durkon doesn't use the signs his deity gives him to justify clearly selfish actions. Miko is more than willing to let her faith substitute her reason.

[teratorn]

[durkon] has never been put through a do or die ordeal where he had to chose between loyalty to roy and fellow OOTS members and will of his god.
He did, he chose Thor, and left Roy and Order to face Miko's blades. But I didn't intend this as a Durkon bashing (it's the character I identify most with), just to show that other people in OOTS also see and follow divine signs when there are none. I think we should stop discussing things in terms like fanatic that can get into real world stuff.

I view this strip more like Miko needing an excuse to do something she feels is not lawful. More like. «Well I'm supposed to stay in the cell, but then these cracks...». I don't see this as that delusional. The thing about «great destiny» is, the test will be when she is confronted with the truth. Of course The Giant may present things in a way she still thinks Xykon and OOTS are allies. But she still cares about something:

«My city... My beautiful blue city...».

[Yeril]

I wouldn't call her sane but i wouldnt call her crazy, probaly just sufferering from a -2 to wisdom

[teratorn]

Are we reading the same comic? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html) Durkon surrenders AFTER seeing Miko in action; it's fairly obvious that he deduced her nature from what she did.
:smallwink: We should be careful, Roland is checking this thread. Yes, I'm reading the same comic.

:durkon: «Therefore, Lord Thor must not WANT us to have killed her. And therefore, she must be good.»

Durkon based the fact she was good solely on the rain giving Miko the advantage, and Thor wouldn't do that unless... A good example of faulty reasoning.

[Kioran]

I think she is, within limits. I will admit I am, maybe beyond reason, a staunch Miko-defender. I think there is still method to this madness.

Besides, I think she will be less than thrilled about Roy´s death. Am I the only one who actually thinks she will actually mourn him a little?

[Kascade101]

Don't forget this warhammer quote, it also fits.
"Innocence proves nothing."

[Spiryt]

A Pratchett quote comes to mind, regarding the Deacon Vorbis from Small Gods. Something about a mind passing right through the waters of chaotic madness and reaching the dry land of cold, rational insanity on the other side. A working mind constructed out of insane components. Reminds me of Miss Miyazaki.

Small Gods. Nice reference, Miko probably really should read this book. She is similar to Vorbis in so many ways. "The only voice Vorbis has been listening to is his own". It looks very similar doesn't it?

[Zhrec]

Miko is insane, she sees her self as a tool of god and behave as she always right. Plus she killed Shojo, this ..... must be tourtured.

[Finn Solomon]

Small Gods. Nice reference, Miko probably really should read this book. She is similar to Vorbis in so many ways. "The only voice Vorbis has been listening to is his own". It looks very similar doesn't it?

Precisely mate. Although I will say that Miko truly madly deeply believes in her role as the Hand of the Gods, whereas Vorbis lacked real faith in Om. Maybe that makes it even worse.

[Tokiko Mima]

I won't be so sure - this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0407.html) is only intervention we have seen for now.
It's quite clear that they intervene in specific moments - for example when thry think that specific mortal no longer deserve their grace.
They don't seem to tell mortals what to do. Miko believe that they do, and it's nothing wrong. Or rather, it was nothing wrong, beacuse now it's like i said insanity and/or conceit.

P.S. Hope you get what i wanted to say. My english is probaly still too frail to express such things :smallbiggrin:

Thor has intervened directly many times. So much so that it leads one to believe that the Twelve Gods are themselves either lazy, weak, inept, or deliberately allowing their devout followers to come to harm.

[Finn Solomon]

Thor has intervened directly many times. So much so that it leads one to believe that the Twelve Gods are themselves either lazy, weak, inept, or deliberately allowing their devout followers to come to harm.

Can't compare Thor to the Twelve Gods, it's apples and oranges. Still fruit, but different fruit. There are obvious cultural differences between the two pantheons, with different methods and practices on both sides.

[teratorn]

Thor has intervened directly many times. So much so that it leads one to believe that the Twelve Gods are themselves either lazy, weak, inept, or deliberately allowing their devout followers to come to harm.

Even Durkon had to say the name of a spell before Thor killed all the trees. Besides, in Thor's little sonic showoff there was no danger of the thing escalading into a confrontation between gods. The thing here is that if AC gods bend the rules then goblin gods will do the same.

[Spiryt]

Thor has intervened directly many times. So much so that it leads one to believe that the Twelve Gods are themselves either lazy, weak, inept, or deliberately allowing their devout followers to come to harm.

Or they just allow their followers to live by themself. They just can't allow their paladin to use their powers to kill unarmed old men.
And Thor just gives Durkon spells, it's not intervening. He doesn't really care (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0353.html) if he live or die at all. " Let me know if dwarf live or die"

[Finn Solomon]

The one time he did intervene he left an entire village to be devoured by Surtur the fire demon, which probably displays stunning ineptitude.

[Alfryd]

...ineptness.
I believe the term is 'ineptitude.'

Precisely mate. Although I will say that Miko truly madly deeply believes in her role as the Hand of the Gods, whereas Vorbis lacked real faith in Om. Maybe that makes it even worse.
Of course, there's the fact that Vorbis regularly practiced torture, deceit, and the systematic sacrifice of hundreds of his own followers. Which might just be a significant distinction.

[Deepblue706]

"Dat girl's crazy! Git 'er in one-uh-dem crayzee buckets."

[Adeptus]

I think she's still sane, and I think that she's taken a very sudden change of direction in this comic. Miko is no longer Miko as she used to be: Lawful 'Good' Paladin, following her beliefs (can't blame someone for that). Now she's fallen, and has become Lawful(?) 'Evil' warrior, following her own will, and making excuses about the "will of the gods"

I don't think you can judge this new Miko by what the old Miko did. She's completely changed in this comic, and she doesn't believe in the things she used to. Now she's out purely for herself, and for revenge against the people who put her where she is

I think you are wrong. Miko is an unflexible, self righteous zealot. She has always been irrational. Previously her irrational beliefs didn't clash enough with the actual surrounding reality to cause her fall. Now this has happened, but Miko is still who she always was.

One can be quite irrational (or batboop crazy) without anybody knowing about it as long as one's delusions are aligned with the surrounding cituation closely enough. When the cituation changes and the zealot's behaviour stays the same... that's when the madness is revealed.

[Morty]

Of course, there's the fact that Vorbis regularly practiced torture, deceit, and the systematic sacrifice of hundreds of his own followers. Which might just be a significant distinction.

True, but their motivation is similiar. They both belive(or, in Vorbis' case pretend to belive) that they're the Hand of God(s), but they listen only to themselves.
More on topic, Miko is perfectly sane, she's just in the state of mind which makes her impossible to convince about anything. She's right, she's the gods' chosen one, everyone who disagrees with her is wrong. Every attempt to make her turn back and redeem herself would only make things worse.

[Alfryd]

Miko is perfectly sane, she's just in the state of mind which makes her impossible to convince about anything.
No, I reckon being nuts is a fair description. She's denied her own Fall, believes that Greenhilt was, at the same time, in league with Shojo and worked to manipulate him, etc. etc. We all have incosistencies in our belief systems to a greater or lesser degree, but Miko's are so fractured that she's functionally deranged.

[PiperlyonWiz5]

i realy don't think miko is sane but she is not insane, the is dependant, gullible, and in desperate need of some anger management classes.

[Zaldrak]

Miko's attitude in short:
My will=the will of the Gods [and NOT the other way around, that's different, mind you]
If Reality says something that contradicts my current view, then Reality is wrong.

Well, franlky, people that say this kind of attitude isn't insane scare me.

[Morty]

No, I reckon being nuts is a fair description. She's denied her own Fall, believes that Greenhilt was, at the same time, in league with Shojo and worked to manipulate him, etc. etc. We all have incosistencies in our belief systems to a greater or lesser degree, but Miko's are so fractured that she's functionally deranged.

I still wouldn't call her completely insane. She's delusional and she makes up things to suit her beliefs and justify her actions, but that's not insanity. But yes, "perfectly sane" was wrong statement. My bad. She's disconnected from reality at least slightly.

[SurlySeraph]

Miko's definitely sane. If she were completely insane, she would have ignored what she heard from the throne room and gone right off to track down the OOTS. She still is living up to her responsibilities, not doing whatever pops into her head at any given moment. She is extremely vain and seems incapable of believing or even imagining that she can make mistakes - and creates elaborate, contradictory theories to explain why she didn't - but that's not bad enough to be insane.

[Poppatomus]

perhaps a quote from the movie gandhi is appropriate here:

"don't you believe that God will protect you?"

"Well, I like to think so, But I'm not so egotistical as to think He plans His day around my dilemmas"

[MReav]

She's definitely not sane.

If she ever was, the two 20d6 concussions would have put her over the edge.

It's like with Homer. "When you sustained as many blows to the head as I have, sanity is something that's something... I'll slay you Roy..."

[Alfryd]

I look up the dictionary definition, but the first thing it mentions is that Insanity removes legal responsibility for your actions.
Hmm. Tough one.

[Balance]

One can be quite irrational (or batboop crazy) without anybody knowing about it as long as one's delusions are aligned with the surrounding cituation closely enough. When the cituation changes and the zealot's behaviour stays the same... that's when the madness is revealed.

Indeed, it is quite possible to reach correct (or at least reasonable) conclusions by means of completely batboop reasoning. For example, John Dee advised people to rid their villages of rats in order to rid it of the Plague, which was perfectly sensible advice. His reasoning, however, was that both rats and the Plague were linked with the moon, and the rats caused the Plague by bringing the moon's influence indoors.

I would submit that Miko has been borderline insane for a long while now, probably even before meeting the Order. Her particular delusions were such, however, that they enabled her to remain functional in her role for quite some time. Her conflict with the Order simply exacerbated the problem, introducing situations in which her delusional reasoning led to bad conclusions. She was forced to layer new delusions and excuses over old to compensate, leading to an eventual psychotic break when she killed Shojo and fell.

So, not only do I think Miko is nuts--I think she's been nuts for as long as we've known her.

[mihai]

What is insane? I don't think Miko could just be tagged "crazy", so she can do things without being comprehensible anymore. On the contrary, I think the Giant has done a very good job to portray her evolution from childhood to this point she is now.

If she was real, I would say she suffers from the problem of a schizoid: she fears having close relationships to others and avoids and denies this by concentrating on herself. By this she loses touch on the reality of others, living more and more in her own fantasy.

Let's check the Guntrip criteria, just found in wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizoid_personality_disorder#Guntrip_criteria)

Introversion: probably yes. She doesn't really interact with the outer world anymore.
Withdrawnness: yes
Narcissism: Oh yes. And she had quite some reason for it, personally chosen to serve the gods...
Self-sufficiency: check
Sense of superiority: check
Loss of affect: check
Loneliness: check
Depersonalization: check
Regression: ?

It's quite plausible for her to go this way, being separated from her family as young girl, having few warm contacts among the monks, being so different than the other paladins, being rejected. All she ever had were her talents, her duty and her gods - as now even the gods have departed, and she finds them in herself. There's little hope for her to open up again now, I'm afraid...

[Kreistor]

Mihai, you are grossly underestimating the requirements of Guntrip. Miko has schizophrenic tendencies, but none are on teh scale that would match Guntrip. Narcissism, for instance... they aren't talking about the standard definition where an individual is focused on their own beauty. They're looking at an utter fascination with herself. Miko is nowhere near that. From wikipedia "His love objects are all inside him and moreover he is greatly identified with them so that his libidinal attachments appear to be in himself." We have no evidence of Miko having even basic narcissism, much less any on quite that great a scale.

And this one...

"Depersonalization: Guntrip describes depersonalization as a loss of a sense of identity and individuality."

Miko's sense of self and self-importance is still powerful and in fact growing.

I could do all of them, but I don't think you'll find that Miko matches many if any of these. Guntrip requires most if not all, and there are many there she just doesn't fit.

[02youeng]

I believe that she is still sane to a degree: if she was batboop crazy she wouldn't have remembered her oath to protect the throne, or to kill the OotS.

However, she's not playing with a full deck - promising to kill a group who are completely good-aligned [save one]

And to chuck in another Warhammer quote:

"Only the insane may judge what sanity is."

[Tokiko Mima]

Can't compare Thor to the Twelve Gods, it's apples and oranges. Still fruit, but different fruit. There are obvious cultural differences between the two pantheons, with different methods and practices on both sides.

I'm not saying that they are the same cultural "style" of Gods. This is pulling from a statement earlier that Miko is not crazy just for assuming that the Gods are watching and intervening to aid her. I mean is, the Gods actually do that in OotS-verse. In the real world, you'd would be crazy to assume the same thing.

So Miko is not crazy for assuming some degree of divine instruction, but she's exhibiting hubris and her lack of touch with reality in the extremes she's taking it to.


Even Durkon had to say the name of a spell before Thor killed all the trees. Besides, in Thor's little sonic showoff there was no danger of the thing escalading into a confrontation between gods. The thing here is that if AC gods bend the rules then goblin gods will do the same.

Goblin God? What pantheon is that from? This is a pretty big assumption to make, as it involves a God that we don't even know exists.


Or they just allow their followers to live by themself. They just can't allow their paladin to use their powers to kill unarmed old men.
And Thor just gives Durkon spells, it's not intervening. He doesn't really care if he live or die at all. " Let me know if dwarf live or die"

If Thor didn't care, why did he ask to know? Seems like a strange command to give if he didn't care at all. I think it's a lot more likely that Thor considered the battle won, became bored, and went elsewhere while still wanting to know how things turned out. Or he had another village to try to save from a red giant. Thor is a pretty busy diety, unlike the Twelve Gods.

As well, I don't believe that Paladin powers really belong to the Twelve Gods. By RAW, a Paladin doesn't even need a God to have powers; however I will admit that this could be different in OotS-verse.

In any case it seems odd to me that the Twelve Gods care so much about one old unarmed scheming man but so little for the wall of soldiers bravely defending a city that reveres them to their death. But I guess it was more important that the Twelve Gods not be personally implicated in Miko's homicide, huh?

[Ridureyu]

Miko's reminding me of Steve Martin in on of his movies. Steve's charater was praying, "Lord, if this is a bad idea, all i ask is that you give me one sign." Thunder crashed, trees fell down, an earthquake started, and Steve prayed, "Just one sign, Lord. Just one sign?"


Apparently, a cataclysm ain't a sign:-P

[Kioran]

I´d bet on Miko still making the right call, but that one reamins to be seen, and if we are lucky, that would be tommorrow :-)

[Milandros]

Here we enter a difficult debate that I'm not sure anyone's really resolved. What is sane, and what is insane?

The problem is that humans (and by fantasy extension, other humanoids and demi-humans :) ) aren't purely rational creatures. From minor irrationalities like not treading on the cracks in the pavement or always brushing one's teeth exactly the same way every morning up to the obvious lunacies of speaking with invisible things that aren't there, raving wildly and having psychopathic breaks is unfortunately a fairly smooth continuum. It's hard to say "ah, here is the dividing line from sanity to insanity".

Without bringing up real-world issues, there are now and have been in history a great many belief systems, religious, social, moral and even intellectual, based purely on belief without evidence. Often evidence has been presented that contradicts a previously held view - in science, too - and many still find it hard to re-align their opinions to match the evidence. Politics is a prime example of this, of course, many will continue to support a political party that they supported many years ago even when all the original people they admired have left and the policies of the party have changed significantly.

The problem is that we are generally irrational. We have a long way to go to become truly rational beings - most of our thinking is done after we've already decided what we want to do. We use logic and reasoning to suppport our conclusions rather than come to them in the first place.

Miko is not obviously completely insane. She still acts in a coherent manner based on her wishes and desires. Those wishes and desires are comprehensible (she's not saying "I must kill Roy because the vaporised fish made turtles in a radial yellow pressed!"). Each step follows in a sensible manner from the previous one. It's just her starting premises that seem absurd.

The question, then , is is she insane to believe that she is so incredibly important and that it's impossible for her to be wrong? I don't know. Many of our celebrities and politicians have exactly the same delusion. I can't, in all honesty, claim that they are particularly stable.

[Ridureyu]

\The question, then , is is she insane to believe that she is so incredibly important and that it's impossible for her to be wrong? I don't know. Many of our celebrities and politicians have exactly the same delusion. I can't, in all honesty, claim that they are particularly stable.


Are you claiming that Miko is really Paris Hilton in disguise?

[teratorn]

Goblin God? What pantheon is that from? This is a pretty big assumption to make, as it involves a God that we don't even know exists.

We had a mention of goblin gods in the crayons of time:
«some even raised up their own gods, like the elves and the goblins»

#369 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0369.html)
:redcloak: «allow me to relay my deity succint retort»

#456# (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html)
:redcloak: I'm the high priest of the Dark One!

[Milandros]

Are you claiming that Miko is really Paris Hilton in disguise?

Sweet lords of mercy, save us! I just imagined Ms Hilton kicking out the bars and escaping from jail... no! No! NOOOOOOOOOO!

[Elliot Kane]

Sadly, I do think Miko is now completely insane, yes. She's so far divorced from reality it's doubtful she could see it with a telescope.

[Snipers_Promise]

I don't think she's legally insane, but she does border on insanity. I think that she could be reasoned with, but mabye thats just wishfull thinking. I think what Roy said in 250 and 251 sum up this argument.

[Wonton]

Are you claiming that Miko is really Paris Hilton in disguise?

Even in 2-D, Miko is better-looking. :smallbiggrin:

[newcresty]

Errr... i have read somehere "then soon lose his aura and xycon took him down with one maximized magic misile"

with or without his aura, soon kim still is a epic level paladin, who have already made some much damage to xykon, and who should resist more than 1 magic misile, where r no talking aobut a mid lvl or a low lvl paladin, soon is a great one


and about miko... i just think she HATES OOTS, but as a paladin she cant comite evil acts, and she doesnt want to comit evil acts, but in his minds she is always looking for a reason to declare evil the OOTS, and so she can smite them all, that a subconscience works u know

[mihai]

Mihai, you are grossly underestimating the requirements of Guntrip. Miko has schizophrenic tendencies, but none are on teh scale that would match Guntrip. [...]

You're probably right, Miko might only have tendencies towards being schizioid (but schizophrenic? I thought that was something else...). As others have said here, the borders between sane and insane are fluent. But it appears to me that Miko is in a situation that only reinforces her defects - she will likely keep going on her path of delusion until something *really* weird wakes her up. Err wait, what could awaken her when she can ignore her fall?

[Kreistor]

Not much...

[DreadArchon]

with or without his aura, soon kim still is a epic level paladin ... where r no talking aobut a mid lvl or a low lvl paladin, soon is a great one
We have no evidence that he is epic. High-level, of course, but not epic. Also, he was shot several times by Xykon before the 25 from the Magic Missiles, and 50% of previous attacks (at like 18d6 damage each) should have hurt him. And Xykon got in a few hits since the first batch of Missiles, too, as there has been a small time lapse.

Edit: This next part was meant for another thread. Sorry. (I think I'll leave it here, though, it kinda ties in.)

Ooh, possibility:
(1) Sabine has reported that her contact with Miko was actually peaceful, so as to get at least a partial bonus if Miko decides to become a blackguard later. Alternatively, Miko has met an Evil Outsider peacefully in the past, with or without knowing it.

(2) Miko yells out "Gods, grant me the power to strike down this undead abomination!" and hits Soon.

(3) Soon is good, right? So, perhaps the gods--the evil ones--will answer her prayer literally by giving her Smite Good... via blackguard levels. She might think it's actually Smite Evil, but by the time she finds out, she'll have fallen too far and it will be too late.

That's how I'd do it.

[chibibar]

I didn't read all 5 pages... but to answer the question via my personal knowledge....

Miko has lost all rational reasoning. I think to be insane you have to be lost touch with reality. Miko knows her surrounding, she knows her situation... just her interpretation is just muddle.

[Kurald Galain]

Hm, I just noticed that Miko's line of thinking (i.e. that her actions are obviously endorsed by the Gods because they could have stopped her and they didn't) was also used by Mr. Jones in #282...

How's that for an insanity plea?

[Black of Night]

Do you know what the definition of insanity is? Doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results.

Miko would never do....

Oh, yeah, right.

[silvadel]

Naw -- she lost her last san point quite a while ago...

All looking at that macabre scene managed to do was to give her a couple of adds to her mythos score...

[Atanuero]

Durkon is NOT a fanatic, and it doesn't do at all to compare him to Miko and her fairly delusional antics. While he may have made a foolish choice in his interpretation of rain, this does not label him as an 'unthinking, unquestioning believer in a certain religion'. I went through all of yesterday believing that it was Friday, simply because I hadn't remembered to glance at my wall calendar when I woke up that morning. That doesn't actually make me any more...anything, except maybe slow to wake up.

The point is, everyone makes mistakes, and while Durkon is a very religious and Lawful dwarf, he is not a fanatic. At the very least, if he ever somehow witnessed Thor making a grave error or being something radically different than what Durkon was taught (for example, if Durkon witnesses Thor killing innocent children), Durkon's fairly powerful logical reasoning and dwarvish pragmatism would likely allow him to consider another religion or even lack thereof. He most definetly would not go down the path of 'Thor controls everything, even what I perceive and am able to do', because that's not Durkon's personality, alignment, or a plausible result of his logical deductions.

[Hyrael]

I'm not sure if your "religious fundamentalist = idiot" argument really holds water, after all, people like Isaac Newton and surely others of great mental capacity were also extremely religious.

[Scrubbed]

But, back to Miko. Miko either genuinely beleives that she has been freed by the gods, or she's decided, consciously or not, that the truly wise make their own portents. So, she's found a way to do whatever the hell she wants and still a pretext of faith, by pretending the thoughts echoing inside her own head come from the gods . She hasnt gone (more) insane, she's mentally advanced down the road of religious development.

Is anyone else reminded of deacon Vorbis, from Small Gods by Terry Pratchett? cause I am.

[Enlong]

Miko is sane. She is just woefully misinformed, and with all the mixed signals she thinks she's getting, "test of faith by the gods" is the only explanation she can think of that makes the world make sense.

[the mysterian]

my thoughts summed up, psycho fundie bitch. anybody who thinks she has any sanity left your wrong. she uses her gods as an excuse to attack and murder those she is angry at. "NO! the gods have a bigger plan for me!" and such leads me to believe she is extremely self centered, her murdering shojo and trying to kill hinjo(granted she was trying to escape, she was actually trying to kill him though) shows she has a horrible temper. and the fact that so much pure logic has been put infront of her face, she chooses to ignore it because it suits her outlook.

she has gone over the deep end.

[Admiral_Kelly]

The problem with your argument, Hyrael, is that you begin with the premises that God is a fallacy. To make such a statement is an assumption against what you are trying to argue and therefore logically absurd.

[Atanuero]

I think Miko is still sane, although incredibly deluded. Think of it this way: if you have been under the impression, all your life, that to be Lawful Stupid is to be righteous, holy, Good, and Lawful (a.k.a. exactly as her deities decree), and due to obscure-color-here-tinted glasses have never actually seen any evidence to the contrary, and then these predominantly non-Lawful and sometimes non-Good turned up and started causing all kinds of havoc with your life, and yet NOT suffered any Divine Smiting from the gods, then there is a chance that you would slowly retreat deeper and deeper into self-induced beliefs and skewed logical constructs because the alternative is to acknowledge that your innermost beliefs are not accurate.

The point to that run-on sentence is, Miko is instinctively reacting to everything around her. Because over the past month or so, she has been shown again and again that hers is not the only way to live well. So she's built up a subsonscious wall of... well, everything we've seen from her recently to prevent her very Lawful Stupid world from being crushed into oblivion.

[EntilZha]

It's been mentioned before in previous threads, but she's kind of gone Anakin Skywalker on us, turning away from the chosen path, seeing herself as right and everyone else as being wrong and therefore deserving of death. She's believing what she wants to believe, objective reality be damned. She destroyed the very thing she swore to protect. I said this in another thread, but if she won't even listen to Soon, then she's beyond help, reason, and redemption.

In a nutshell, if you looked up the word "insane" in a dictionary, you'd see her picture.