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Yechezkiel
2007-06-05, 03:33 AM
The new article up on the WotC D&D site about the Arcane Archer seems to not be aware of the 3.5 ammunition + weapon rules. Anyone else feel like this was written back in 3.0?

Several forums have gone into the fact that this PrC needs an official .5 update.

Creighton Broadhurst<-:smallfurious:

Swooper
2007-06-05, 04:02 AM
The article (which I just read a few minutes before you posted) is definitely written in 3.5, it mentions all kinds of things that weren't here back in .0 - Warmage, duskblade, feats from CW, cold iron arrows etc. I'm not sure which rules you're referring to regarding ammunition and weapons (having rather recently made the switch to 3.5 I tend to get confused :smallfrown:), care to clarify?

Leon
2007-06-05, 04:33 AM
Whats the problem your seeing?

as far as i can see its fine

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-06-05, 05:24 AM
Could someone link the offending article? However, if it has the same text as the one in the 3.5 DMG, I think I see the misconception...

In 3.0, you could have a +3 arrow launched from a +2 bow for a total of +5 enhancement. In 3.5, they didn't stack. So a +3 arrow launched from a +2 bow results in a +3 enhancement. It's not that they aren't aware of it, it's that it is poorly worded, and copied over from a poorly edited entry which was copied and pasted over from the old system and left in to nerf the class into oblivion.

RS14
2007-06-05, 05:33 AM
http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070605

PinkysBrain
2007-06-05, 05:42 AM
It's a pity they are willing to trash talk core monsters and question their design decisions but they still have to pussyfoot around when talking about the core PrCs like this.

Tyger
2007-06-05, 07:38 AM
Are you referring to the posted example character's damage output of 1d8+4?

If so, leaving aside the idea that they are suggesting the arrow enchantment stacks with the bow enchantment... the math is still wrong.

It should actually be 1d8+5.

+1 for Enchantment
+2 for Strength Bonus
+2 for Weapon Specialization.

So no matter what, the math is bad. Reminds me of the Durkon and math strip. :)

Swooper
2007-06-05, 08:50 AM
Actually, he's not using his composite bow. I looked thoroughly at that character and appearently, he has two bows. One's a Longbow +1, the other a Mighty +2 Composite Longbow +1. For reasons beyond mortal comprehension, he's using the Longbow. Therefore, one must assume the 1d8+4 damage comes from: +2 Weapon Specialization, +1 arrow, +1 bow, making the OP's complaints valid. Ignoring the premade character (honestly, who ever uses those anyway?) the article is fine I believe.

Tyger
2007-06-05, 08:58 AM
Actually, he's not using his composite bow. I looked thoroughly at that character and appearently, he has two bows. One's a Longbow +1, the other a Mighty +2 Composite Longbow +1. For reasons beyond mortal comprehension, he's using the Longbow. Therefore, one must assume the 1d8+4 damage comes from: +2 Weapon Specialization, +1 arrow, +1 bow, making the OP's complaints valid. Ignoring the premade character (honestly, who ever uses those anyway?) the article is fine I believe.

Actually, no. Read the section entitled "Possessions"... it only lists one bow, a +1 Composite Longbow. No second bow. The damage in the "Ranged" category lists "+1 longbow" which is completely accurate. The +1 Composite Longbow is in fact, a +1 longbow.

So the math I noted above stands. Either way, it doesn't matter, because as you pointed out, the example character isn't a rule, its an example. A bad one in this case, but an example nonetheless. :smallsmile:

Swooper
2007-06-05, 09:07 AM
Right you are. I read "Combat gear plus..." and assumed 'Combat gear' included the bow listed in the attack entry above, but evidently it's only a healing potion. Damn misleading naming conventions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots012.html). Should be 'Combat consumables' or something.

shuntsu
2007-06-05, 09:09 AM
Have to agree with Tyger:

It's a composite longbow, specially made to allow a +2 Str bonus to damage, which the example character has (Str 14).

This example character also has the Enchant Arrow ability (+1), and the bow itself is a +1 bow, but these don't stack, so only +1 to damage here.

The Weapon Specialization feat also adds +2 damage as well, for a total of 5.

I don't know if perhaps this is a typo or what, but it's definitely an error.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-06-05, 01:08 PM
Having read the article, it's full of crap.

1) Still doesn't address that the most powerful class features can be obviated by a single Greater Magic Weapon spell cast per day, and Seeker Arrow is obviated by Improved Precise Shot. I've never seen a case where Phase Arrow has been any good, and Hail of Arrows is just silly. So you're going to lightly damage everything in range (up to a max of 10 targets)? No thanks, I'll just concentrate fire and take out one or two things instead. And Death Arrow... the ONLY capstone ability with a FIXED DC... blech.

2) First off, it's not Darkwood Sniper, it's Darkwood Stalker, and contributes very little to Arcane Archer, and vice versa. Also, by the time you qualify for Darkwood Stalker after going Arcane Archer, you're nearly into Epic levels.

3) Order of the Bow Initiate also sucks. You only get the precision damage if you make a SINGLE attack in a round. Greater Weapon Focus is a feat, and a sub-par one, so is Sharpshooting, and Extended Precision can be obviated by the feat Crossbow Sniper. Other than the 2nd level ability and the precision damage, I could do this all faster as straight Fighter. The precision damage only applies when you make a single shot, so you're doing less damage than if you had been using something like Manyshot

I wonder if the author of this article even bothered learning about the class...

Tyger
2007-06-05, 01:12 PM
Oh yeah, no question that the class needs rebalancing. Its weak at best, and downright gimped at worst. The Scout class or even a Ranger going the Archery route both outdo the Arcane Archer in damage and relevant skills. Any elven wizard or sorcerer can quite likely do as good if not better just by creative use of spells (GMW to get the +5, Cat's Grace for bonus BAB, Truestrike, etc etc etc.).

Damionte
2007-06-05, 01:41 PM
Actually, if the example character is not using the (+2 STR) bow then the damage is correct.

+1 bow, +2 weapon specialisation, +1 point blank shot = 1d8+4. Once again not a great example but the damage is correct as long as the character is fighting within sneak attack range.

You guys didn't look at all of the characters feats.

Draz74
2007-06-05, 01:44 PM
I wonder if the author of this article even bothered learning about the class...

Considering the author doesn't even know that Rangers have a good Reflex save ... I've given up hope that he would learn anything about the Arcane Archer.

Seriously. He says one of the great features of the Arcane Archer is that it has a good Reflex save, while Fighter, Ranger, Wizard, and Sorcerer (it's "usual" base classes, which is also nonsense nowadays -- if anything, Hexblade is the best way to enter Arcane Archer) don't. I wanted to cry. :smallfrown:

Tyger
2007-06-05, 01:51 PM
Actually, if the example character is not using the (+2 STR) bow then the damage is correct.

+1 bow, +2 weapon specialisation, +1 point blank shot = 1d8+4. Once again not a great example but the damage is correct as long as the character is fighting within sneak attack range.

You guys didn't look at all of the characters feats.

And you looked too closely... :)

There is nothing there to indicate that range would be factored in to the damage. Damage, in MM or the like, as posted like that, does not take into account purely situational modifiers. Or if it does, it factors it in with parenthetical comments or clearly ennumerated statements.

If you are right, the damage would be 1d8+6... because the comments do indicate that they character is doing that damage with their +1 bow.

Yechezkiel
2007-06-05, 02:44 PM
I'm glad I'm not the only one who hates when we're handed halfassed articles/material.

Damionte
2007-06-05, 03:49 PM
You're right about the not being within 30 feet. Otherwise the attack bonus would be 14 instead of 13.

+7 BAB, +4 dex, +1 weapon, +1 point blank shot, +1 wepaon focus = 14



I do not believe they got any rules wrong as the OP proposes. They simply didn't clarify which of thier abilities they were using to come up with thier numbers.

The problem being that whoever put the article up cut and pasted from somewhere. They calculated the damaged based on a +1 Longbow, which is what's listed in the combat block. Yes he has a +1 composite longbow (+2str) listed in possessions but that weapon is not in the combat block.

How many of us actually look at thier character examples though. Personally I know I don't. Thier character examples are usually built so poorly I don't even both looking at them. Only reason I even took a look at this one was because you guys brought it up.


They always try to sneak in the stupid feats that no one takes. for instance thi guy blew a feat on <Iron Will>. The saving throw feats , and skill focus feats are not worth thier weight. Many of thier example builds through in these feats. Or things like <Run> or <Tougness>. I only take feats like those if they're required to get me soemwhere else.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-06-05, 04:05 PM
Furthermore, why in the name of Kratos would an arcane archer pick up a +1 bow, when his class ability completely negates any and all advantage from it?

Tyger
2007-06-05, 04:10 PM
For the +1 to BAB?

And it appears that they did get the printed materials wrong there. The math simply doesn't work out. Granted, that's likely a typo, not a rules confusion though. Point is, doesn't really matter, as we all noticed it asap.

Damionte
2007-06-05, 05:04 PM
Arcane archer doesn't get a +1 from a magic bow. Just the +1 from masterwork if they end up in an AMF.

Yeah it's another example of non optimised design. I know many people don't care about optimisation. As a discple of the church of Optomisation, (formerly the temple of min-max) thier sample characters are blights in the face of our lord. Minsta-Maximus!

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-06-05, 07:15 PM
Arcane archer doesn't get a +1 from a magic bow. Just the +1 from masterwork if they end up in an AMF.

Yeah it's another example of non optimised design. I know many people don't care about optimisation. As a discple of the church of Optomisation, (formerly the temple of min-max) thier sample characters are blights in the face of our lord. Minsta-Maximus!

There's non-optimized builds, then there's just plain SILLY ones. Even a normal, Core Ranger, without ANY optimization techniques, could do better than the example character in nearly every situation.

I can understand grabbing a Mighty Composite Masterworked Longbow. That lets you add your damage in. Fine. But to give it a +1 enchantment when your class ability already gives you a +1 enhancement bonus when it doesn't even stack is literally nothing more than wasting money to absolutely no benefit.

Come on, a Ranger with a Mighty composite longbow does more damage than this build. Toss on a +1 enchantment onto the bow and he just plain outclasses this one.

Droodle
2007-06-05, 07:52 PM
Wouldn't an Arcane archer who stacked elemental/Holy/Armor Piercing enhancements rather than +x enhancements on his bow actually out-do the damage potential of most other (non-sneak attacking) archers? Without the need to waste anything past the initial +1 when enchanting his bow (since he gets substantially more than that for free), an arcane archer is free to stack all kinds of elemental, holy, axiomatic, or brilliant enchantments on his weapon.

Skjaldbakka
2007-06-05, 08:12 PM
I believe the counter-point here is that a Greater Magic Weapon spell would give you the same benefit, and begging a 3rd level spell from the wizard or the cleric is much cheaper than sinking 10 levels.

Bauglir
2007-06-05, 09:36 PM
Ah, but the Arcane Archer is good for one thing; two level dip, then firing Guards and Wards arrows into the enemy stronghold. Heh. Plus, for actual combat situations, the +14 effective bonus on all arrows is nice, especially since one must ordinarily get +6 ammunition to get that bonus. Of course, getting that requires 9 levels and probably isn't worth it.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-06-05, 09:42 PM
Say, for example, a Wizard decides to cast Reach Chain GMW. This hits the whole party with GMW, granting everyone a +5 enhancement bonus. This is a good use of a spell, since GMW is hours/level, so it lasts all day long. In fact, you can pull it off with a lower level spell if you go Archmage and get Arcane Reach to make it a ranged spell in the first place. Everyone's weapon is now a +5 for the cost of a 5th level spell? Sign me up!

Oh... wait... sorry about that Arcane Archer, I didn't mean to make you obsolete... well, to be honest, you were already obsolete, I just kinda made you pointless with one spell... sorry bout that.

Arbitrarity
2007-06-05, 09:49 PM
Orrr... you could get smiting spell, as one of the feats the AA doesn't get cause he wastes em.

Damionte
2007-06-05, 10:03 PM
There is a reason to give an Arcane Archer a +1 Magic bow though. If he want's to put anything else on the bow it has to be +1 first. So if he wants to add in soemthing else that he couldn't do with his class abilities like.. exploding or soemthign he'd have to do this first.

Now bumping it up to +2 THAt would be stupid.

Draz74
2007-06-05, 10:27 PM
Ah, but the Arcane Archer is good for one thing; two level dip, then firing Guards and Wards arrows into the enemy stronghold. Heh.

That's hilarious and brilliant.


Plus, for actual combat situations, the +14 effective bonus on all arrows is nice, especially since one must ordinarily get +6 ammunition to get that bonus. Of course, getting that requires 9 levels and probably isn't worth it.

Sorry, that still doesn't hold water, because you can still do it better with Greater Magic Weapon. And I think you can only get it up to +13.

Renegade Paladin
2007-06-05, 10:29 PM
Ah, but the Arcane Archer is good for one thing; two level dip, then firing Guards and Wards arrows into the enemy stronghold. Heh.
Wouldn't work. You have to fire the arrow in the same round you cast the spell; guards and wards takes thirty minutes. Also, you have to be within the area to be warded.

ravenkith
2007-06-06, 10:31 AM
Arcane acher is great!

...In 3.0.

3.5? Teh suck.

Fix? The + 1 every other level goes to hit and damage...and can be traded out for certain other enchantments (similar to the soulbow list, perhaps). So, by the time you finish the class, you could coneivably be throwing up +1 arrows of flame, shock, acid, frost, so every single arrow drops d8 + STR + 1 + 4d6. Combined with manyshot or rapid fire, an what amounts to a full bab, and you're talking respectable damage, comparable to a high level wizard, popping scorching ray, for instance.

Also, on the levels that you don't get an arrow enhancement, you should gain a level in your arcane spellcasting class (so the class becomes a 5/10 progression). This enables you to actually get some higher level spells into play, and increase your damage output.

Class abilities:

Imbue Arrow: Good. Add in touch spells at level 6 and you've got a deal.

Seeker Arrow: Nice. Make it spellcasting modifer times/day.

Phase Arrow: Ok. See Seeker Arrow. Move it to 8 instead of 6.

Hail of Arrows: Urm...See seeker arrow and make it a force effect, requiring no ammo. Class abilities still apply to these 'force arrows'. Move to level 10.

Arrow of Death: Ha, ha, Wizards. Wait, you're serious? DC 15 + class level, get it at level 1. move action to make an arrow an arrow of death, requires no extra time or materials, lasts for rd/class level, not usable by others. spellcasting mod times a day.

Conclusion:
At least after these changes there'd be a point to the class. As it stands, you give up way too much for what, effectively, you can get for a few gold coins.

I mean, whats the point of having one level of wizard and imbue arrow...? You can't even put any good spells on your arrows...and don't get much damage at all.

Gah. Stupid WOTC.

Suggested build:

Fighter 4/Martial Wizard 4/Arcane Archer 10/Martial Wizard 5-6

Race: Elf
Feats:
Character: 7 - Manyshot should be included.
Fighter: 3f (Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus: Longbow) 2w (Rapid Shot, Weapon Specialization: Longbow)
(12 total)

If you want to give up a feat, you might try to trade out four levels of the Martial Wizard for four levels of Abjurant Champion (Complete Mage) instead, which is, without doubt, numerically superior (IIRC, it's BAB 5 required...and grants some very nice benefits).

Please note, with both builds you still get over a +16 BAB, sacking only 3 points of BAB on the first, and just one point on the second.

With the first build, you'd have 6d4 + 10d8 + 4d10. With the second, 10d8 + 8d10 + 2d4.

Both builds would (with the changes), yield 11 levels of spellcasting power. Just enough to get into the sixth level spells with a wizard, and more than enough to get the full 10d6 progression on a fireball.

If you go smart, you can go generalist wizard (using the sub levels for elven wizards in the races of the wild books) or the collegiate wizard feat that can be found in the back of the Complete Arcane, to juice up your power a bit.

Sickeningly, a wizard with these capabilities could conceivably deliver an arrow that impacts for the afore mentioned damage, then tiggers a fortitude save or take con damage to the tune of 1d10 (poison), then trigger a second fortitude save or die. Truly a 'death arrow'.

Still not as powerful as a straight wizard or druid by any means, but at least usable, and somewhat comparable.

Still needs a ton of ammunition. :smallfrown:

Matthew
2007-06-07, 01:13 PM
There's non-optimized builds, then there's just plain SILLY ones. Even a normal, Core Ranger, without ANY optimization techniques, could do better than the example character in nearly every situation.

I can understand grabbing a Mighty Composite Masterworked Longbow. That lets you add your damage in. Fine. But to give it a +1 enchantment when your class ability already gives you a +1 enhancement bonus when it doesn't even stack is literally nothing more than wasting money to absolutely no benefit.

Come on, a Ranger with a Mighty composite longbow does more damage than this build. Toss on a +1 enchantment onto the bow and he just plain outclasses this one.

Er, I would imagine the Long Bow +1 is a relic of the days before this Character became an Arcane Archer.

Doglord
2007-06-07, 01:29 PM
Have you noticed it says it can help fighters add a bit of magic to their abilities, yet you need to be able to cast arcane spells to enter the class! You may as well stay with fighter/wizard and work towards spellsword.

Zherog
2007-06-07, 02:09 PM
Furthermore, why in the name of Kratos would an arcane archer pick up a +1 bow, when his class ability completely negates any and all advantage from it?

You would pick up a +1 bow in order to add other enhancements (holy, flaming, etc) to the bow.

Person_Man
2007-06-07, 02:17 PM
Yeah, its a retarded PrC for a wide variety of reasons. Even a strait Ranger with access to the Spell Compendium (Arrowmind, Hail of Arrows) is more powerful and useful. And that's pretty mediocre.

I hate it when WotC defends patently weak material. You know what, just accept the fact that if you publish a phone book worth of material every month, that some of its going to suck. There's no need to beat poor old useless horses to death, Resurrect them, and then beat them to death again. Just bury them in the pasture and leave them alone.

Matthew
2007-06-07, 02:19 PM
You would pick up a +1 bow in order to add other enhancements (holy, flaming, etc) to the bow.
Heh, heh. Whilst, I was looking to the past, you were looking to the future...