Giving a devil a moral compass

[KindOfGoodGuy]

So there is an idea I have been playing around with for a while now. Many stories have spun the idea of demonic or hellish power that can reside within a person and slowly it corrupts them. But what if it was the reverse?

Say for example: There is a kingdom that for years has been under the torture of a devil. Every month it keeps coming up with a nefarious scheme more evil than the last. However, the only person who keeps putting a stop to his antics at the last moment is a single paladin with the purest of hearts. Yet despite his best efforts over the years and the number of confrontations that they have, neither side seems to be able to beat the other. Soon after the realization, the paladin decides to do something extreme as a way to prevent the devil from committing any more awful deeds. He prepares a ritual and lures him out. When the time is best, he activates the ritual and instead of having the devil trapped inside himself, he traps his own soul inside the devil to act as an extreme moral compass, actually making the guy feel huge guilt for anything bad that it does from then on out.

I know that more elaboration could be required in a setting to make this more feasible, but I wanted to know what the Playground thought of it first.

[Honest Tiefling]

Well, firstly, should a paladin be a match for a being of pure evil? That's not a snarky question, that's a genuine inquiry into how the setting works. Would the paladin infecting an Erinyes, a creature that once upon a time must have felt guilt be appropriate for this story?

Secondly, how would this take form? Can a being of pure and utter evil even comprehend guilt? What would its first reaction to such an emotion be? Guilt sucks, so wouldn't the devil's inclination be to remove the source of the guilt, as opposed to dealing with the emotion?

Thirdly, where do the players come in on this? Most BBEGs are pretty absent, else they tend to suffer a case of death or the character do. They could at first, free themselves, then be bribed to help the paladin, and then be told how to use the creature's guilt against itself, but that seems quite railroady.

[Geddy2112]

I mean sure, a force for good could be locked inside an evil being. When done, it could try to break free/tame the evil as best it can(should it be able to hold as innocent). Or maybe it can somehow undo some of the more evil things, sometimes.

Two other thoughts

1. Do devil's not have a moral compass?
I think as predominately LE beings, they are very well aware of right and wrong, where they stand on the issue, and have no qualms breaking eggs to make omelets. A compass always points north, but that makes it equally useful to find south. Knowing the exact perimeters of good and righteousness is the duty of any evil being to do evil properly. You have to know what both are to commit to a single side. Likewise, devils are generally not the type to feign ignorance of morality, or lie to themselves about their actions. Lying about being evil/lack of a moral compass is for players who want to play murderhobos and create elaborate justifications about how they can grind through saipent life for XP and gold while remaining chaotic neutral. If this is a devil, they should up and act like it.


Well, firstly, should a paladin be a match for a being of pure evil? That's not a snarky question, that's a genuine inquiry into how the setting works. Would the paladin infecting an Erinyes, a creature that once upon a time must have felt guilt be appropriate for this story?
Expanding on this
2. Do paladins have to get all the LG/good love? Sure, the noble sacrifice of the paladin is classic, but really anybody of devout faith and moral character may sacrifice themselves in this way. All the other divine casters, from clerics to rangers could jump on. Heck, a good aligned wizard is going to actually know what they are doing when they summon an extra planar creature and attempt to mess with its mind via magic. What about a bard? Can they not be equally devout and forceful of personality for their deity?

[Honest Tiefling]

Also, what of the risk of the paladin themselves being corrupted? Putting yourself into the body of a being literally made of evil is going to have risks. What if they feel the satisifaction of everyone and everything in its place, and the inner peace and strength of will that comes from that, giving them the drive to fight back the forces of chaos? The rush of power, the feeling of peace that comes from an iron fist can be quite alluring.

What of their own guilt, realizing that they are trying to make a creature feel guilt simply to punish it, watching it not understand this emotion at all and retaliate by hurting more people to make its own hurt stop? A devil may not be able to even comprehend feeling guilt and may not have any way to deal with it...After all, the forces that made the devils would want them not to defect. So what if this is a fail safe built into devils? What if the paladin comes to realize that devils no matter what, due to being pawns in a larger game require more then simply his soul to be able to even begin to process empathy or guilt? Many good aligned spells could cause such things (such as this ritual) so why leave such a glaring weakness in your perfect creations?

I sorta like the last response, because it gives an in to a party. The paladin realizes it isn't working, and contacts them, possibly via dreams or hijacking the devil itself. Or it could be that another paladin (or as mentioned, a cleric) realizes the first one never came back and bribes the party to help. They learn of the situation, and have three choices: Leave it be, hoping that in time it will work, getting the paladin out and admitting defeat, or shoving even more lawful goodness into the devil to make the place succeed, possibly at the risk of killing the paladin and devil.

[Aleolus]

Not to diminish the value of the previous posts (because they are all good points and questions), there is actually a precedent for this working in published WotC material.

Exordias (WoL) was originally a Nine-Lives Stealer in the hands of a powerful Blackguard (I think). He fought against a Paladin of purist heart and slew her, allowing the sword to devour her soul. However, her soul was so pure and innocent it actually purified the blade, rendering it useless for the blackguard

[DrMotives]

This is much like the backstory for the character Angel from Buffy. He's a vampire (which is a type of demon in the Buffy universe), and after being cursed to have a soul was immediately guilted into an eternal quest of atonement.

[Red Fel]

I'll just leave this (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a) here...

You know... Since I haven't been asked...

[Âmesang]

Heck, my first thought was Demon-King Piccolo (http://www.dragonball-multiverse.com/en/page-950.html#h_read) from Dragon Ball Multiverse.

With that out of the way I do like the idea, though mainly with the thought of tossing in a lawful-stupid character who doesn't believe it and might challenge the "vile" devil to combat, not realizing the truth till it's too late. :smalltongue:

[Aleolus]

I'll just leave this (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a) here...

You know... Since I haven't been asked...

Ah! Red Fel! How could we forget to invite Red Fel? After all, Red Fel's knowledge of all things evil is beyond compare!

[mackdaddie]

So there is an idea I have been playing around with for a while now. Many stories have spun the idea of demonic or hellish power that can reside within a person and slowly it corrupts them. But what if it was the reverse?

Say for example: There is a kingdom that for years has been under the torture of a devil. Every month it keeps coming up with a nefarious scheme more evil than the last. However, the only person who keeps putting a stop to his antics at the last moment is a single paladin with the purest of hearts. Yet despite his best efforts over the years and the number of confrontations that they have, neither side seems to be able to beat the other. Soon after the realization, the paladin decides to do something extreme as a way to prevent the devil from committing any more awful deeds. He prepares a ritual and lures him out. When the time is best, he activates the ritual and instead of having the devil trapped inside himself, he traps his own soul inside the devil to act as an extreme moral compass, actually making the guy feel huge guilt for anything bad that it does from then on out.

I know that more elaboration could be required in a setting to make this more feasible, but I wanted to know what the Playground thought of it first.


It's the teaser for a campaign, and not a bad one, either. Next questions are, what are the players gonna do? Perhaps through time or assistance the devil learns to quell the inner voice of the Paladin, so they seek to free his soul, however that may be accomplished. Whatever it is, the other question is, of course, who wants to stop them from doing whatever it is they do? Answer these questions, and you have the start of a game that could prove quite fun.

[Jowgen]

I've looked quite extensively into the subject of redeeming evil creatures, and when it comes to Fiends stuff gets real tricky. In general, going evil is so much easier than going good.

Erinyes, as a race, were originally Angels (or some other higher plane dweller), which is why they still have the ability to reproduce. Even that slug-looking Archduke of Baator, whose name escapes me, was a good guy once. To my knowledge, Eludecia is the only known example of the opposite happening.

Rule-wise, things get even trickier. BoVD considers a range of creatures (e.g. Chromatic Dragons) to be genuinely un-redeemable. BoED paints a slightly better picture, stating that only things with the Evil sub-type are inherently beyond redemption. This makes sense, as alignment and energy subtypes essentially describe what a creature('s soul) is made of. For illustration, according to Frostburn, getting the Lord of the 5th out of his icy prison requires plently of sacrificed souls belonging to good-aligned creatures with the fire-subtype.

So, to make a fiend good, you either need to get rid of their evil subtype first (e.g. the Savage Species alignment subtype ritual), or accept Eludecia's example as canon and somehow make that Fiend fall in love. I've never looked into any love-related material in the books, so no idea on how to achieve the latter.

To relate this back to the OP a bit more, instilling guilt itself does not strike me as sufficient to help turn a fiend good. Going by Elucidia's example, it wouldn't even be able to comprehend the unpleasant feeling. No, the Fiend in question would need to be compelled to feel love for one or more creatures, and everything that comes with it.

[Red Fel]

Ah! Red Fel! How could we forget to invite Red Fel? After all, Red Fel's knowledge of all things evil is beyond compare!

Well done. When my time is at hand, you will not be slaughtered.

Slowly.

Alright. There are several ways to do this, all things considered. Some have already been mentioned. Let me run through a few scenarios.

1. Evil Outsiders are People Too! In this scenario, Evil Outsiders are people, capable of the same range of human emotions, and even a certain degree of free will. The catch is that they just lack a conscience or morality. They don't feel guilt or shame. This is the Angel scenario DrMotives mentioned. Slap a conscience on one and suddenly he will realize, whether he wants to or not, how wrong his actions are. The advantage here is that, to him, the idea of morality is a relatable one, and as a result he can change over time. Basically, the conscience foisted upon him can grow to be something he accepts. The hero's noble sacrifice could actually create redemption here.

2. Demon Don't Give a ****. In this scenario, Evil Outsiders are mentally amoral. They have a natural inclination towards Evil, and a complete lack of moral compass. (Contrast that with the previous scenario, in which they are aware of morality, but don't indulge.) Morality is incomprehensible to them. Suddenly slapping one with a conscience would be pure punishment. Imagine a small child, uncomprehending of what he has done wrong, being told he has to be punished. He doesn't understand why this has to happen, why he has to suffer. Unlike the previous example, which can comprehend its new moral compass, this character cannot. All he knows is that something inside him twists and turns and makes him suffer for what he does, and he doesn't grasp why or what it is or means. In all likelihood, the hero's noble sacrifice will not change the baddie, but could cause him distraction at a key moment.

3. We're All Mad Here. In this scenario, Evil Outsiders are completely alien in mentality. You're trying to impose a Black-White morality, with emphasis on the White, on a creature with Waffle-Mongoose morality. As a result, the conscience will be ineffectual; trying to dictate a moral compass to a being so beyond morality is like trying to hold off the tide with a grain of sand. This is the worst case scenario for the hero's sacrifice, which is more likely to corrupt the hero's spirit in backlash than to change the baddie in any meaningful way.

4. Let's Make a Deal. My favorite. Here, the Evil Outsider is aware of this alien presence within it. After being unable to resist the compulsion of a conscience, and unable to exorcise its new occupant, the baddie decides on compromise. Clearly, the hero suffers whenever baddie does as baddie does. Clearly, so does baddie. So what you find is a strange symbiosis, each trying to "corrupt" the other by measures. The PCs have the opportunity to try to turn the tide, allowing host or parasite to win influence over the other.

How's that?

[morkendi]

just as an idea, It could be a half fiend and play well in the story. Everyone is saying about the devils being beings made of pure evil, but a half fiend would only be half an evil being so to say, but would fit in your story line well. I once played a lawful good priest/ radiant servant of Sarenrae in a combo of 3.5 and pathfinder. It was a very fun character to play as Sarenrae is a good of redemption. It says that she even communicates with evil deities in hopes of converting them.

[Prime32]

It would go something like this. Probably.

The attempt at redeeming the devil is 100% successful, but the devil is now wracked by guilt, feels that the paladin didn't deserve to die to save someone so evil, and sometimes starts weeping and trying to ask the paladin what to do.
A massive invasion from Hell is imminent, largely thanks to the devil's own prior efforts. No one on Earth knows about it, no one can stop it.
The devil tries to stop the invasion single-handed, fighting with such passion for its cause that it exceeds its limits and even starts to develop paladin levels. Dramatically shouting "I AM A PALADIN!" as it one-shots a devil three times its size with Smite Evil = optional.
Someone else tried to redeem a devil through the same process, but this devil's new emotions drove it insane and now it wants to serve neither Heaven nor Hell, but destroy the universe. This devil is the current leader of the Hell army, and its superiors have no idea of its true motives.
Crazy Devil rips out the paladin's soul from Hero Devil and destroys it, mocking Hero Devil for not really being good, but somehow Hero Devil manages to grow its own soul and transform into a unique Good Outsider who defeats Crazy Devil.
Hero Devil has a vision of the paladin saying he saw good in him because he held so tightly to honor, and he's proud of him.
Hero Devil never retires, and defends Earth forever.



Heck, my first thought was Demon-King Piccolo (http://www.dragonball-multiverse.com/en/page-950.html#h_read) from Dragon Ball Multiverse.

With that out of the way I do like the idea, though mainly with the thought of tossing in a lawful-stupid character who doesn't believe it and might challenge the "vile" devil to combat, not realizing the truth till it's too late. :smalltongue:There was also The Dresden Files. Harry briefly comes into contact with an artefact containing a fallen angel, and it leaves an imprint of itself on his mind. The imprint keeps trying to tempt Harry into taking up the artefact so that the fallen angel can take over, but he manages to keep resisting. And then something interesting begins to happen:

First of all, while fallen angels are essentially "made out of their alignment" D&D-style and cannot grow or change, the imprint is held in a mortal brain and thus inherently mutable. Second, Harry gives the imprint a nickname, different from that of the fallen angel itself, and there are implications that when Harry nicknames things it can subtly change the nature of that thing. Eventually the imprint survives long enough to develop a sense of self, and realises that if Harry actually takes up the artefact and invites in the real fallen angel, it will die.

The imprint ends up sacrificing itself to save Harry. When Harry meets the real fallen angel again, it is extremely disturbed by this.

[hamishspence]

Erinyes, as a race, were originally Angels (or some other higher plane dweller), which is why they still have the ability to reproduce. Even that slug-looking Archduke of Baator, whose name escapes me, was a good guy once. To my knowledge, Eludecia is the only known example of the opposite happening.


Apparently it was quite common in Planescape - to the extent that they formed their own army with their own general - K'rand Vahlix:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AscendedDemon

[tropical_punch]

There's always Sanctify the Wicked from Book of Exalted Deeds.

[hamishspence]

It's not clear whether the "change alignment" facet of the spell works - but the Sanctified Creature template (which the spell normally grants) cannot be applied to Outsiders with the Evil subtype.