Robilar's Gambit/Karmic Strike and Evasive Reflexes

[ColossusCrusher]

So I was looking around for some feats for a slippery, ninja-like character, and I came across Evasive Reflexes and the Shifting Defense stance in Setting Sun. I was wondering if using Robilar's or Karmic Strike to trigger the AoOs needed to spam five-foot steps is a good idea. Sure, you have to eat the first attack, but it stops full attacks cold - or am I missing something here?

[Jowgen]

It is a decent combo. Either Karmic or Robilars can allow you to 5 ft step away after an attack with Evasive reflexes, but it isn't entirely fool-proof. You need to consider that enemies may still have their own 5-ft steps available when they start full-attacking, and also, they may attack you at a range closer than their own reach.

The ability to take 10 ft steps (e.g. UMD'd sparring dummy of the master) would go a long way in making this more viable.

[Necroticplague]

The ability to take 10 ft steps (e.g. UMD'd sparring dummy of the master) would go a long way in making this more viable.

Isn't there also a book that let's a DC 40 tumblr check do this?

[Jowgen]

Isn't there also a book that let's a DC 40 tumblr check do this?

Yeah, Oriental Adventures.

[ben-zayb]

Isn't there also a book that let's a DC 40 tumblr check do this?

Yup, but that actually needs more eesource investment, and probably not optimal at low-mid levels.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Yup, but that actually needs more eesource investment, and probably not optimal at low-mid levels.

Robilar's Gambit needs BAB 12, so its not exactly a low-mid level option even on a full bab class (which most ninja-like characters probably aren't).
Karmic Strike might work at low levels, but it's completely counterproductive in that you need to actually get hit for it to work, so getting better AC and miss chance actually works against you instead of in your favor.

Boosting skills does take a little while to kick in, but its probably cheaper in the end because feat slots are generally the more valuable resource in my experience.
The easiest would probably be to take levels in Ninja Spy (OA). It's a decent rogueish class (all good saves, HiPS, Sneak Attack, Alter Self at will) that also grants a +20 competence on tumble (among others) along with the ability to take 10.

The other option is to backport the Snake Style line of feats from PF. It takes a lot more feats (3 + Combat Reflexes & IUS) to do what Robilar's Gambit does, but it doesn't have the BAB requirement. Probably not the best idea with 3.5 feat progression unless you get a lot of bonus feats.

[Rubik]

Robilar's Gambit needs BAB 12, so its not exactly a low-mid level option even on a full bab class (which most ninja-like characters probably aren't).
Karmic Strike might work at low levels, but it's completely counterproductive in that you need to actually get hit for it to work, so getting better AC and miss chance actually works against you instead of in your favor.Ironically, since AoOs take place before the action that triggered them (unless stated otherwise, like Robilar's Gambit), you can use any number of ways to neuter your attacker's ability to hit you with Karmic Strike. For instance, if you disarm your attacker with Karmic Strike, he won't actually be able to attack you with the weapon you just disarmed. The same goes for Evasive Reflexes or Knockback.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Ironically, since AoOs take place before the action that triggered them (unless stated otherwise, like Robilar's Gambit), you can use any number of ways to neuter your attacker's ability to hit you with Karmic Strike. For instance, if you disarm your attacker with Karmic Strike, he won't actually be able to attack you with the weapon you just disarmed. The same goes for Evasive Reflexes or Knockback.

Except that Karmic Strike explicitly triggers when you're hit. If your opponent doesn't hit you you don't get an AoO to prevent him from hitting in the first place.
You caused a paradox. Reality snaps and tears around you, tearing you apart on an existential level and unmaking you utterly, along with everything else in a 10ft radius.

(I'd just say that Karmic Strike AoO's trigger after the hit, so you just get the attack with no chance at interrupting. It's not entirely clear, but the wording can be interpreted that way and it causes less problems. But the other way is more fun.)

[Rubik]

Except that Karmic Strike explicitly triggers when you're hit. If your opponent doesn't hit you you don't get an AoO to prevent him from hitting in the first place.
You caused a paradox. Reality snaps and tears around you, tearing you apart on an existential level and unmaking you utterly, along with everything else in a 10ft radius.

(I'd just say that Karmic Strike AoO's trigger after the hit, so you just get the attack with no chance at interrupting. It's not entirely clear, but the wording can be interpreted that way and it causes less problems. But the other way is more fun.)Them's houserules, either way. After all, if a wizard casts a spell and it fizzles because of your AoO, he still provoked, even though the spell never got cast. Same thing here.

[ben-zayb]

something that completely missed my pointI was referring to DC20 UMD check + Sparring Master requiring less resource investments than a DC40 Tumble check.