M&M3e Power Concept Questions

[Yatogami Odin]

I'm doing some brainstorming for a new character, and I had some questions about how to best pull off a particular concept. I've dabbled in M&M3e before, but I'm no expert.

So here's the idea: a girl who's able to project psychic limbs from distant surfaces. Clearly the basis for this concept is Sustained Extra Limbs with Projection. The trick is how to convert it from a personal power into a ranged one.

Increased Range operates only on close or ranged powers, but the text indicates that a personal power could be changed to close via Affects Others, which then qualifies the power for Increased Range. So that would definitely allow my character to literally give a guy some extra hands from a few paces away, but could she also grow an arm out of that streetlamp over there? It sounds more like something Affects Objects would cover, but that specifically applies to "effects normally resisted by Fortitude". I guess I could throw in Resistible (Fortitude) and qualify that way, but then Affect Objects doesn't have the "change personal to close" clause. As you can see, I'm not really sure how to proceed.

I know that I could potentially just relegate the projected arm thing into a descriptor of some kind and use a combination of powers to accomplish the things I want to do, but somehow I think Ranged Projected Limbs is more "elegant" than an amalgam of Move Object, Improved Grab, Extended Reach Strength effects, Remote Sensing, etc., especially with all the extras those powers would need to fit my mental image. So let's just assume, okay, Affects Others plus Increased Range lets my character grow arms from distant surfaces. I still have a few questions about how exactly that works.

1. Does she need the Indirect modifier for the arms to grow from somewhere other than her body? Or maybe could Indirect in conjunction with some other modifiers (like a Feature, for instance) replace the tricky Affects Others business?

2. If she wanted to project multiple arms at once, do they all have to sprout from a single spot, or could she distribute each one anywhere within targetable range? Would she need the Area extra in either case?

3. Slightly different sort of question: if I wanted to apply Elongation to just her projected arms, would that be a Limit or a Quirk? I mean, Quirk makes sense, but if she's projecting four (or fewer) limbs that gives her a total of eight, and from there it's easy to see that making four of them un-elongatable (if there is such a word) fits the "halved effectiveness" requirement nicely.

I would greatly appreciate any feedback the Playground can offer. Thank you.

EDIT: Follow-up question for the Elongation power; no bearing on the Extra Limbs questions. How does Elongation interact with Swinging Movement? Do the stretchy limbs simply provide the necessary swing-line? Or can you skip Swinging since snapping back an extended limb is a free action? I guess the real question is whether or not one can allow oneself to be pulled along to the stretched limb, as opposed to always having the limb snap back to the body.

[Kid Jake]

Seems like it'd be a better idea to just use Summon Minion to model the spontaneously generating limbs.

[Yatogami Odin]

Seems like it'd be a better idea to just use Summon Minion to model the spontaneously generating limbs.

That is one possibility, but there are some areas that Minions don't cover. For example, Strength effects and combat Advantages apply to all limbs equally (as would things like Elongation sans Quirk or Limit), but would have to be purchased separately for each minion. But more importantly, the cost of summoning multiple effective minions escalates sharply, especially where hordes are concerned. Also, there isn't the same ease of use with minions-as-arms; even if you got the other things to work, they act on their own places in the initiative order, and have to be commanded as a move action at that. Sorry, but Summon isn't really what I'm looking for.

EDIT: Another question not related to Extra Limbs: How does Ranged Touch respond to things like fire or sharp blades? If such things are within range, do you automatically get burned/cut/whatever? And what if you threw Penetrates Concealment into the mix? Does that mean you can touch the inside and outside of objects all at once? The feedback question becomes a little more important because things might be hot or pointy inside, and there's also the matter of moving parts, like clockwork. I guess the issue boils down to whether or not the sense of touch includes pain, in which case ranged touch kinda sucks (although ranged touch as tremorsense doesn't seem to carry risk of feedback or sensory overload).

[Sith_Happens]

I know that I could potentially just relegate the projected arm thing into a descriptor of some kind and use a combination of powers to accomplish the things I want to do, but somehow I think Ranged Projected Limbs is more "elegant" than an amalgam of Move Object, Improved Grab, Extended Reach Strength effects, Remote Sensing, etc., especially with all the extras those powers would need to fit my mental image.

Sorry to burst your bubble but that way lies naught but madness. Trust me, I've seen people try to reinvent the wheel in this system and it never works.

[Yatogami Odin]

Sorry to burst your bubble but that way lies naught but madness. Trust me, I've seen people try to reinvent the wheel in this system and it never works.

Yeah, figured as much. I'll make do with something else and save that for a system that supports it. Do you have any feedback on the ranged, concealment-penetrating touch issue? That one I think is more straightforward, more a question of limitations than hacking the system.

[Sith_Happens]

You're talking about applying Senses 1 (Ranged) to your tactile senses, right? I don't see how the ability to feel things from a distance without physically touching them would come with any of the drawbacks of actually sticking your hand in a fire. I suppose it would in fact still feel painful (unless of course you added a Feature to negate that part), but you definitely won't take any damage or anything. As for throwing Penetrates Concealment on top, yes, that would let you feel things through walls.

[Yatogami Odin]

Awesome. I imagine a Feature that provides an overall immunity to pain isn't too unreasonable, as it compares well with the other 1pt Immunities. Mind, that's different from the inability to feel pain; it's just that pain isn't a hindrance.

That just about sums everything up, then. I'll try and crank out a character sheet for more thorough review.

EDIT: Most of the crunch is done; fluff needs a lot of work. Unfortunately, I can't post links until I've posted 10 times, so I can only give you the sheet number: 631328. Sorry about that. I'll poke around the forum and see if I can fill that quota, perhaps by making a recruitment page.

[Sith_Happens]

Use Myth-Weavers instead, it doesn't have that problem.

[Yatogami Odin]

Use Myth-Weavers instead, it doesn't have that problem.

Ah, whoops, I forgot to mention that I did use Myth-Weavers. That's what I meant when I said sheet number. Unless you mean putting up the game request over there, which I might do also. Still, it won't be too long before I can post links. I'm working on that request now, and it includes a narrative description of my character's capabilities. I'll probably copy-pasta that to the M-W forum once I'm done. If you want to see the description, give me just a sec to finish the request post.

EDIT: I'm not sure why, but my phone keeps eating what I type. I flip back and forth between tabs and sometimes when I come back some of all of the text disappears. That's why it's taken me such an inordinately long time to post and draw up the character sheet - the latter I had to redo at least three or four times. Oh well. Anyway, request thread is up over in the recruitment forum.

[Sith_Happens]

I have no idea what you mean by "posting a link," but copy-pasting the URL works for me and I've never posted a single thing on their forums.

[Yatogami Odin]

No, I meant here. I didn't realize there was a "10 post before you can insert images or links) restriction here. If I even try to paste the URL it doesn't let me post. I suppose a certain amount of butchering would let it go through, but at that point it's just easier to say, " Here's the M-W sheet number, go open up any sheet and change the number in the URL to that". I hope that's what came across. If not, I apologize.

In any case, I'm only a post or two away from the mark. At the very least I can make it just responding to you over and over again. Have you read the summary for my character's abilities in the other thread, perchance?

EDIT: Aha, we have linkage! Here you go:

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=631328

[Elderand]

I think you may have become too focused on the idea of limbs and doing everything with one power.
The ability to sprout phantom limbs, especialy with projection and elongation tells me it would be easier to forget extra limbs entirely. The limbs are more descriptor than anything.

Phantom limbs: Dynamic Array
Phantom Grabby hands: Ranged affliction (Resisted by dodge, overcome by damage; hindered and impaired, disabled and immobile), extra condition, limited degree, Indirect 4 (2pp/rank +4 points)
Manipulating phantom limbs: Perception range move object, precise (3pp/ranks +1 point)
Phantom multipunch: Ranged on strength damage, indirect 4, multiattack (1pp/rank + 5 points)

Or possibly just the more expensive:
Phantom limbs: Perception range damaging move object, precise (4pp/rank +1 point)

As for the ability to use tactile sense at a distance through your limbs that could be done with placing ranged and extended on tactile sense, sure.
Or it could be Remote sensing (Tactile), simultaneous. Either of them linked to the entire phantom limbs dynamic array or more expensive Phantom limbs power.

[Yatogami Odin]

Yeah, that'll do it. Thank you for working that out; I'll keep it in mind for a future character. For the one I'm working from right now, though, I skipped the ranged projection limbs entirely and just went with 500ft long ones. Close enough. :-3

[Sith_Happens]

Fun fact: it costs like 30 points to be able to punch anyone on Earth without getting out of bed.

[Yatogami Odin]

Fun fact: it costs like 30 points to be able to punch anyone on Earth without getting out of bed.

I wouldn't be surprised. Reminds me of that one GURPS advantage that lets you destroy the universe for just 43 points. :-3

So yeah, I cut the elongation down to 30ft for less craziness, but I think the ranged touch thing might be scaring people off. I mean, I want to have Lucina be able to navigate through walls and stuff, and touch just seemed like a funner way to do it.

Then there's the fact that she's got three Abilities at 10 and +15 attack with literally every close combat weapon out there. I did it because it was cheaper than buying up the equivalent traits separately, but now I feel like I'm overdoing it. Do you have any feedback about that?

[Elderand]

It's hard to give feedback because the mythweaver sheet is not showing any text if it goes beyond the edge which is a problem for the movements effect and senses

[Yatogami Odin]

It's hard to give feedback because the mythweaver sheet is not showing any text if it goes beyond the edge which is a problem for the movements effect and senses

All you need to do is click and drag. Granted, Lucina's powers are pretty simple, but more complicated arrays and the like would probably need to be broken down more. Still, it won't be too hard to move the text around a bit.

To save you some time, it's Movement 4 with Slithering, Trackless (Visual, Auditory), and Wall-Crawling. Senses 7 improves the tactile sense with Acute, Analytical, Penetrates Concealment, and Ranged. The former, in conjunction with Insubstantial 1, allows Lucina to crawl along walls and ceilings as a puddle of goo that makes no sound or visible tracks. The latter helps her feel her way around while she's in puddle form; she gets a highly sensitive tactile awareness of anything around her, including their insides and outsides. Feeling objects from every direction at once would reveal, among other things, their distance, size, weight, and, perhaps most importantly, permeability. That's the intent, anyway.

[Elderand]

Alright then.

Purely from a point counting point of view, you're wasting point in awareness, you're better off buying perception and will separatly.
Movement cost is 8 points on it's own. 4 if you put a limit on them that they are only available while in puddle form.
Immunity to pain is at least 2 points, not a 1 point feature, there's no functionnal difference between not feeling pain and not being bothered by it.

[Yatogami Odin]

Alright then.

Purely from a point counting point of view, you're wasting point in awareness, you're better off buying perception and will separatly.
Movement cost is 8 points on it's own. 4 if you put a limit on them that they are only available while in puddle form.
Immunity to pain is at least 2 points, not a 1 point feature, there's no functionnal difference between not feeling pain and not being bothered by it.

Using Awareness for Insight, too. Just didn't list it because I didn't put any ranks into it. That's what I did for all the skills that don't need training but are Ability-only anyway. I threw the 1 point into Acrobatics because that's the one skill I'm interested in that is trained-only.

That sounds legit. Not sure why I didn't think of that before.

Deal. I couldn't find a way to word it, but what I really wanted was to just cover for some ranged touch weirdness, e.g. if there's a knife or a fire or some such "hazardous" item in range, do you get cut/burned/whatever? Well, not necessarily injured, but I don't imagine feeling those things is pleasant. Immunity to Pain would certainly cover that; I was just wondering if something lesser would do.

[The_Snark]

Purely from a point counting point of view, you're wasting point in awareness, you're better off buying perception and will separatly.

Not necessarily - Awareness also gives you Insight, which is a fairly useful skill; buying Will, Perception and Insight costs exactly as much as buying Awareness. If you don't care about Insight, then you're better off lowering Awareness and buying what you want directly, but if you like having it then it's not wasted.

[Elderand]

Deal. I couldn't find a way to word it, but what I really wanted was to just cover for some ranged touch weirdness, e.g. if there's a knife or a fire or some such "hazardous" item in range, do you get cut/burned/whatever? Well, not necessarily injured, but I don't imagine feeling those things is pleasant. Immunity to Pain would certainly cover that; I was just wondering if something lesser would do.

It could be a one point feature if it's just for the pain response to "touching" thing with the sense power, hell, it might simply be an assumed part of the power much like speedtser don't have to buy immunity to friction to avoid having their clothes burned.

Immunity to pain would also protect you from power with a pain descriptor like an affliction for exemple.

[Yatogami Odin]

It could be a one point feature if it's just for the pain response to "touching" thing with the sense power, hell, it might simply be an assumed part of the power much like speedtser don't have to buy immunity to friction to avoid having their clothes burned.

Immunity to pain would also protect you from power with a pain descriptor like an affliction for exemple.

Yeah, I was hoping for that kind of generous interpretation too, but I've still yet to hear from a prospective GM for this character, so I'll keep Immunity to Pain on there until then, as it's useful in other ways, too.

I feel like I can probably throw Limited to Insubstantial onto Elongation and Extra Limbs, too, since I really don't intend for Lucina to access those powers in regular human form, even if she might want them.

[Elderand]

Then what you're looking at is an alternate form, something like this:

Ooze form: Activation (Standard, -2 point) (31)
Tentacled beast: Insubstantial 1; Elongation 2 (30 ft), Extra limbs 5 (tentacles)
Multitentacle attack: Multiattack on strength damage
Slithering ooze: Movement 4 (Slithering, Trackless 2 (visual, auditory), wall crawling); Speed 1
Tremorsense: Senses 7 (Accurate, analyctical, extended tactile, tactile penetrates concealement)

[Yatogami Odin]

Figures they have a way to stop Limit-spamming. Hmm. If I just Limited one power (Movement, since it costs the most at 8), could I get away with that? I don't much like Alternate Form. The Limited Movement seems alright as it could be the adhesive quality of the ooze that allows the slinking and wall-crawling.

(Darn, if I Limited all the powers except the Senses 7, I'd have powers completely locked down, with the exception of Multiattack, should I boost Strength later. Oh well.)

[Sith_Happens]

I couldn't find a way to word it, but what I really wanted was to just cover for some ranged touch weirdness, e.g. if there's a knife or a fire or some such "hazardous" item in range, do you get cut/burned/whatever? Well, not necessarily injured, but I don't imagine feeling those things is pleasant. Immunity to Pain would certainly cover that; I was just wondering if something lesser would do.

The Feature you're looking for is "May exclude nociception (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nociception)" as an extra on the Senses power itself. The "may" being there because sometimes you want to know if something hurts.

[Yatogami Odin]

The Feature you're looking for is "May exclude nociception (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nociception)" as an extra on the Senses power itself. The "may" being there because sometimes you want to know if something hurts.

Provided that the GM doesn't simply allow it as a part of the sense, I think that would work out pretty well. For the time being, it's a moot point, as I pushed points around and made room for Immunity to Pain (which I also hope the GM would interpret as "you can still feel pain, you just don't mind it.)

Said point-pushing has also allowed me to grab pretty much everything on my wish list of powers - everything else at this point, like Concealment or Regeneration, is just icing on the cake. So aside from the 5-6 points per level used to catch up with PL limits, I'm free to mess around:

The fifteen points to PL11 would probably be spent as follows:

- 4 points on Strength and Stamina 6.
- 1 point on Multiattack 6
- 5 points on skills to bring both Athletics and Deception up to a total of +15 each.
- 5 points on anything else.

From PL11 to PL12:
- 6 points on Agility, Awareness, and Fighting 11.
- 9 points on anything else.

And so on. Basically, from even PLs to odd, I need 5 points to keep with the limits (including Multiattack), and 6 from odd levels to even. Thus, 9-10 points free at each level. Yeah, pretty happy with where Lucina's at, and with where she's going. :-3

[Sith_Happens]

Immunity to Pain (which I also hope the GM would interpret as "you can still feel pain, you just don't mind it.)

That is at least how I would interpret it given that powers having drawbacks is what flaws and complications are for.

[Yatogami Odin]

That is at least how I would interpret it given that powers having drawbacks is what flaws and complications are for.

Exactly. Without a flaw or complication to that effect, I can't imagine Pain Immunity working against you. There's a difference between that and, say, Immunity to Suffocation not strictly protecting you from inhaled toxins.

If you know there's something bad in the air, you can just hold your breath until either it's gone or you're elsewhere. But in the case of an invisible toxin, unless you were holding your breath beforehand, you wouldn't think you needed to hold your breath until something bad happened. That's not a flaw or complication, but a natural limitation of the power. Pain Immunity doesn't have that kind of built-in limitation.