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View Full Version : Reintroducing Psionic Combat to 3.5?



AngelAndrius
2007-06-05, 12:34 PM
Honestly, Fights between psionic characters were the main reason I loved to play psionic chars in 2nd.

It was by far the most appetizing aspect of psionics.

Where did it go? Why did WotC decise it would be a good idea to drop it?

I am not a big fan of the extraplanar snot theme they have going on now.

The basic premise for you guys who didn't know

There was a psionic "field" like another plane, but directly tied and on the prime material. Individuals with psionic abilities could 'see' into this field. Non-psionics looked like an amorphous sphere, while those possesing Power Points, appeared as their physical form. Psionic individuals could attack and defend on this field using five attacks and five defenses. You picked an attack and picked a defense at the beginning of the round and so did your opponent. They both cost a certain number of points to use, the defenses always cost a set 1 or two Power Points and the attacks were variable, 1 to 3 per die of damage you wanted to put into an attack.

But the cool thing about it was that you could make your attacks look like anything you wanted. You could be like "Full Plate forms over my body as I stretch out my hand and cause a Red Dragon to Kamikaze into my opponent" that would be the defense Tower of Iron Will and an attack like Psychic crush. Really cool eh?

The dies of damage did not damage HP they damaged the psychic reserves. Like if you were to put 8 points into an attack that cost 2, you would do 4dwhatever damage to your opponent psionically. If your opponent ran out of Power Points, the secondary effects of the attacks came into play. the mind being 'opened' allowed some attacks to directly damage or stun or some other effect, depending on the attack.

You learned the five attacks and defenses as you leveled, usually starting out with 1/1, 2/2 if you were a straight Psionicist. Wild talents were different then, you earned more and more Power Points as you leveled, not a stagnant bunch.

So that's an issue I don't quite know how to approach.

Non psionic chars were less vulnerable to these types of attacks, starting at a higher AC. For the re-make I'm planning I'd start them at 20 and psionic chars at 10. Usually it was the base plus your highest mental stat (Int Wis or Cha). Psionic chars usually got bonuses according to their psionic hit die, like a Monk nowadays. The psionic defenses added a bonus or a penalty to your MAC depending on what attack is used against them. You got a mental BaB too. Psionicists were on the full, and Wild Talents were on the 2/3.

But as you can see, it became not all that difficult to hit someone, even a non-psychic char (who immediately took the secondary effects of the attacks). I was thinking for a 3.5 re-make to allow you to get +1 to either your MBaB or your MAC when you leveled, your choice. So either you became really good at defense or attacking or moderate at both. Classes like Soulknife I would put on the 2/3 for this. And as for learning the attacks a defenses, I would probably let most strict psionic classes like Psion and Ardent to learn all 10 by lvl 10. Mid classes like Lurk and Wilder by 15. And minor classes like Divine Mind and Soulknife by lvl 20.

I still haven't figured out how to deal with Wild Talent Feat holders. :smalleek:

This is all been sort of random. Some ideas I just wanted to throw out.

Let me know what you think! :smallbiggrin:

AngelAndrius
2007-06-05, 01:02 PM
what about also allowing teh wild talent feat holders to gain one attack and defense of their choice so long as they don't have any psionic class levels, but that's it, and a +1 to put either in MAC or MBaB their choice? Again without any psionic classes that would give this bonus anyway.

I would also start them out at an AC of 15 I think.

But what sould I do about naturally psionic races? People with just 1 Power Point and no powers to manifest???

shadowmage
2007-06-05, 01:08 PM
One of the 3rd party books did really were recreating the "dreamscape" psionic battle grounds. But I can not remember off the top of my head which one it was or what it was named. I think it was Untapped Potential: New Horizons in Psionics (Expanded Version). I will have to go home and check my PDF to see if this is it. But it is something that only psionic char can do to each other.

Catch
2007-06-05, 01:09 PM
Where did it go? Why did WotC decise it would be a good idea to drop it?

Too complex, and it didn't appeal to everyone. The major intention of 3rd edition was simplify everything to make the game easier to pick up and play (ie, THAC0 to BAB, positive AC instead of negative, simplified saving throws, etc.)

2nd edition's psionic combat was peculiar system that didn't quite fit in the 3rd edition style of play, so it was left out.

AngelAndrius
2007-06-05, 01:12 PM
Too complex, and it didn't appeal to everyone. The major intention of 3rd edition was simplify everything to make the game easier to pick up and play, (ie, THAC0 to BAB, positive AC instead of negative, simplified saving throws, etc.)

2nd edition's psionic combat was peculiar system that didn't quite fit in the 3rd edition style of play, so it was left out.

haha yeah i agree

but now that they've made everything all complicated again, why not bring it back? :smallwink:

EDIT: With all the simplified new stuff of course BaB and positive ACs and all that

AngelAndrius
2007-06-05, 01:13 PM
One of the 3rd party books did really were recreating the "dreamscape" psionic battle grounds. But I can not remember off the top of my head which one it was or what it was named. I think it was Untapped Potential: New Horizons in Psionics (Expanded Version). I will have to go home and check my PDF to see if this is it. But it is something that only psionic char can do to each other.


Huh tha'td be interesting. If you can find it, that'd be awesome

Attilargh
2007-06-05, 01:14 PM
I recall reading an amusing little piece of dialogue about how a DM wants to introduce a couple of house-rules to the Cleric's Turn Undead ability. Does anyone know what I'm talking about?

AngelAndrius
2007-06-05, 01:15 PM
huh? no idea, sorry

Quietus
2007-06-05, 01:16 PM
If you do implement this, do NOT allow psionic chars to affect nonpsionic ones. If you have no levels in psionic classes, you haven't opened your mind to it, and aren't affected by it. Include Wild Talent people in this if they have no psionic classes.

One of the most broken parts of the old psionics system, from what I saw, was in the ability to wander around hitting nonpsionic people for effects they couldn't prevent.

AngelAndrius
2007-06-05, 01:21 PM
If you do implement this, do NOT allow psionic chars to affect nonpsionic ones. If you have no levels in psionic classes, you haven't opened your mind to it, and aren't affected by it. Include Wild Talent people in this if they have no psionic classes.

One of the most broken parts of the old psionics system, from what I saw, was in the ability to wander around hitting nonpsionic people for effects they couldn't prevent.

yeah, i know, that's why I tried to balance it up there. You have to pick whether you get to add to your attack or defense. But maybe I'll allow non psionic chars to add 1/2 their hit die to their MAC too, or something, I dunno.

But I'd still like for psionic chars to be able to affect non-psionic chars. Somehow

ghost_warlock
2007-06-05, 01:21 PM
Psionic combat for 3.5 D&D is fully and artfully detailed in the third-party book Hyperconscious (http://www.ptolus.com/mpress_Hyper.html) by Bruce R. Cordell and published by Malhavoc Press. Evidently, you can pick it up as an eBook for between $7-11.

This is a really good supplement (many Playgrounders like and use it) and I'd advise checking it out if you love psionics (much, much better than Complete Psionic). Much of the flavor of the book deals with dreams and a plane of dreams; including special "dream-stained" magic items. there's a number of new powers, prestige classes, and critters as well. It also contains an adventure for psionic characters.

bosssmiley
2007-06-05, 01:24 PM
2nd Psionic Combat had the same problem that netrunning did in cyberpunk games: how do you involve the non-psi/non-netrunner characters in the action? Any combat scene where 3/4s of the party is rendered irrelevant fails as a gaming exercise. The 'cheerleading from the sidelines' claque (a la "Yu-Gi-Oh") is not where any gamer wants to spend their time.

Ectoplasmic manifestation at least allows non-psionics to fight someone who is potentially more boring and one-sided as a combatant than a controller archetype mage. :smallannoyed:

Belteshazzar
2007-06-05, 01:25 PM
I recall reading an amusing little piece of dialogue about how a DM wants to introduce a couple of house-rules to the Cleric's Turn Undead ability. Does anyone know what I'm talking about?

Do you mean my rant on Clerical domains and how their effect on the cleric's range of abilities should be more heavily influenced by the source of their spiritual power?

NEO|Phyte
2007-06-05, 01:28 PM
I recall reading an amusing little piece of dialogue about how a DM wants to introduce a couple of house-rules to the Cleric's Turn Undead ability. Does anyone know what I'm talking about?

I remember it, yeah. No clue where or when it was posted, but it is remembered.

Attilargh
2007-06-05, 01:29 PM
Do you mean my rant on Clerical domains and how their effect on the cleric's range of abilities should be more heavily influenced by the source of their spiritual power?
I don't know. I just recall it being used to point out why psionic combat was silly. It has a DM explaining some rather odd, psionic combat -inspired rules to a Cleric player and end with the Cleric storming away in disgust.

Khantalas
2007-06-05, 01:33 PM
I have used this model before, but to really appreciate how this "class feature" worked you should see how it would apply if ported to mainstream D&D where they haven't been conditioned to accept inferior mechanics without question. Lets take the big sacred moo, a Cleric's undead turning ability:

DM: "Before we get started, Cleric, I just want you to know that I am instituting some changes in your turn undead class feature that will make your class more different and give it a unique divine mechanic."

Player: "OK. How does it work now?"

DM: "Well, for starters, when you attempt to turn undead you will now have to burn a spell."

Player: "A spell???? What level?"

DM: "Different levels. It depends on what turning mode you want to use. Sanctified Gesture takes a level 1, Divine Dance of Power takes a level 2, High Holly Homina Homina takes a level 3, and...."

Player: "Wait, I assume I will get a bonus on the roll based on the level of spell slot I sacrifice?"

DM: "Sometimes you will. Other times you will get a penalty based on the turning defense mode the opponent selects. Turning and turning defense modes will interact on a table. The table determines the actual DC of the roll, not the level of the spell slot burned. Choosing a given defense mode may actually mean you pay a spell to get a penalty on the save, but it will still be better than being defenseless."

Player: "The undead will get defense modes?"

DM: "Sure, so will you. Each round you will select a turning attack mode and a defense mode. In fact, you will need to select a defense mode against each undead opponent each and every round and each will cost you spell slots."

Player: "Wwwwwwhat????!!!!!! What if I am facing undead who do not cast spells, I assume they won't get to mount a defense?"

DM: "It doesn't matter if you face undead without casting ability because their turning and turning defense modes are free."

Player: "Wait a minute! This is stupid! One of my 3rd level spell slots could be spent on Searing Light which fries undead; why would I ever spend it on an attack mode that might help me on a turning attempt? And why would I ever take a turning defense mode, much less a separate one vs. each undead opponent? I would simply choose to ignore undead or cast spells against them or go at them with weapons. I would have to have brain damage to choose to turn with these rules!"

DM: "If you fail to mount a defense then each unblocked undead gets a special +8 bonus to hit you for having this wonderful class feature and choosing not to use it. They also get to drain your stats if they hit. This will apply also to anyone who adds a level of Cleric; multiclassing will be very flavorful."

Player: "But I am a spellcaster, I need to be able to cast spells. How can I do my job if my spell slots get sucked away every time we run into undead?"

DM: "Well, how can you do your job if you are dead or reduced to a mindless state? You need to use your spells this way or you may not live long enough to cast them anyway."

Player: Head down, silently weeping into his hands.

DM: "I should mention too that you will be able to make turn undead attempts vs. nonundead; if you succeed they will be stunned for a few rounds. Of course, everyone who does not have this feature will get a huge bonus on the save DC. The best part: If you blow a 5th level spell to use High Holy Hokey Pokey then everyone in a large area could be stunned for a long while and they don't get a bonus vs. this one mode -- that makes the entire system usable and balanced."

Player: "They should all be stunned if they ever see me willingly use these rules. This is preposterous! I need my spells to heal and buff and perform all the functions of a Cleric. How am I going to be of any use to the party if I hemorrhage spell slots every time we run into undead?"

DM: "That is the beauty of it: You get to choose whether to use your spell slots as they were intended or save your own hide by using them to turn. Come on and at least give it a chance. It will be a mechanic unique to your class so it must be a benefit. You don't want to be just another spellcaster do you? This will add so much flavor and.... Hey! Get him off of me!"

Player: "How ya like that fist flavor?"

By AntiDjinn, in the Wizards boards.

AngelAndrius
2007-06-05, 01:35 PM
Oh well, yes psionic chars had some disadvantages to fighting psionically.

They were flatfooted so long as they engaged in psionic combat and could only move1/2 their speed. I would add to this big penalties to spot and listen. You aren't oblivious to the outside world, but you are somewhat occupied. :smalltongue:

Also, just because someone is attacking you psionically, doesn't mean you have to respond, you can let them wail on you if you want to summon a nasty snot-monster. I might even allow psionic chars to manifest a defense as a swift action. Allowing them to fight and move. I'd probably still halve their movement speed, but not make them completely flat-footed.

Attilargh
2007-06-05, 01:39 PM
Khantalas, you're awesome. Have a jar of cookies.

AngelAndrius
2007-06-05, 01:42 PM
By AntiDjinn, in the Wizards boards.

lolololol OMG that is hilarious.

I hope that the psionic combat thing isn't so ridiculous. I will check out that book, but in the meantime, are these two systems really so comparable?

lol just because you fail to hit or even mount a defense doesn't mean your oppoenet gets +8 to hit with lvl drain and sta drain. I think it might be balanced, but that's jusyt me, the psionic thing, not the cleric thing.

Belteshazzar
2007-06-05, 01:50 PM
Oh my thread had nothing to do with psionics mostly just domains and turning. Must have been a different post.

lord_khaine
2007-06-05, 01:52 PM
that post by antijinn was a pretty good desciption, off why getting rid of psionic combat was one of the best things to happen to psionic when they updatet to 3.5

psionic combat really sucked that much as in the example, and if you suddenly introduce it to your player i will recomend sitting closest to the door..

AngelAndrius
2007-06-05, 01:53 PM
that post by antijinn was a pretty good desciption, off why getting rid of psionic combat was one of the best things to happen to psionic when they updatet to 3.5

psionic combat really sucked that much as in the example, and if you suddenly introduce it to your player i will recomend sitting closest to the door..

Bah

No way, being a blackblet, I'd take em out lol.

But i do miss psionic combat. Ithink it is worthwhile to revisit.

Behold_the_Void
2007-06-05, 02:30 PM
Psionic Combat was just unintuitive, overcomplicated and wholly unnecessary. Who says you can't give astral form to your regular psionic powers that only other psions can perceive? You can get the exact same flavor by using psionic powers to be useful as opposed to using it to lock your brain with some other psion and slowly batter at each other's ability scores while the fighter runs up to you and guts you. Heck, most of the Psionic Attack and Defense modes were converted into actual powers. Useful powers.

Quietus
2007-06-05, 02:32 PM
Bah

No way, being a blackblet, I'd take em out lol.

But i do miss psionic combat. Ithink it is worthwhile to revisit.

Just remember that A) Psionic combat left non-psionics more or less defenseless, and B) Every time they come against people who can fight psionically, as was noted in that rant, the psionic characters will be hemorraging PP (spell slots). Even - actually, ESPECIALLY - if you let them mount defenses as swift actions. That just means they're essentially blowing two spells a round, and one is just so they don't get bent over by a psionic opponent.

I'd recommend that you do something like... if you want to make a psionic mental attack, KEEP the flat footed, and make them lose their psionic focus. If you have to be focussed in order to do this, that means that they're going to either only mount a psionic attack every other round, OR burn a feat so they can spend a full round standing in spot doing mental combat.

AngelAndrius
2007-06-05, 05:58 PM
Really, I don't think that psionic combat is exclusory. the swift action thing allows for one to be able to engage the other party members while still fending off the psion. And summoning or protective barriers would be crucial to protect the swift action person if he wants to engage in psionic combat full time. The psionic focus thing makes sense to me. I like that idea. But i don't think I'll throw in the flat footed, it takes a lot less focus to defend your own mind than to try and attack another. And I think I will make non-psionics, including naturally psionic races with no potential to tap their power (still don't know what to do about elans) practically immune with a base 20 MAC + highest mental stat (no lower than 0) + hit dice/levels. That makes the most sense to me. Wilder Talents (and elans?) will be the same thing but at a base of 15.

So like, a lvl 5 psion with a party comes up against a level 7 fighter
Let's say the psion goes for a mental attack. Let's also say, going by my above suggestion she gets to split her bonuses between MAC and MBAB. Assuming the worst, all 5 into MBaB and a 4 stat bonus, she would get +9 to hit.

The Fighter's MAC would at least be 27 plus highest mental stat, in the worst case, a 0. that's a 27. That means the psion would have to roll an 18 or higher to affect the fighter with an attack. Not very prudent. She'd probably would be far better off just manifesting powers.

Take the same scenario with another psion. Say the enemy was more prudent with their point distribution. +4 to attack +3 to MAC. Assuming a +5 stat bonus, that's an MAC of 18, and an 9 or higher for our aggressive friend. Even if the enemy figures out what defense works best, say a net +3 bonus to MAC and the ability to manifest a defense every round burning the feat, that still gives our psion a fighting chance of really hurting the opponent.

As for the flavor argument that you can manifest powers simlutaneously on the astral plane... so what??? It's still who can throw out the most powers and get the luckiest rolls on saves. Thank you, but we already have clerics and mages for that.

Nothing makes more sense for me than two psions sitting across from each other, slowly breaking into a sweat, when suddenly one rolls out of the chaor screaming. Not throwing snot at each other.

Starsinger
2007-06-05, 06:43 PM
But the cool thing about it was that you could make your attacks look like anything you wanted. You could be like "Full Plate forms over my body as I stretch out my hand and cause a Red Dragon to Kamikaze into my opponent" that would be the defense Tower of Iron Will and an attack like Psychic crush. Really cool eh?

You can do that anyways. There's nothing stopping you from describing your mind thrust power as a giant blue spear manifesting in your hand, then flying into your enemy's skull or whatever. Description and mechanics aren't inseparable or anything.

Swordguy
2007-06-05, 08:15 PM
Go look at the psionic combat rules in the Lone Wolf RPG (by Mongoose). It's built to be run simultaneously as regular combat. It's no perfect (you can still absolutely ruin non-psi-capable people every round, and you can't break the combat until one or the other is down), but it's a good start.

The Valiant Turtle
2007-06-05, 08:32 PM
The main problem with Psi combat was that it was a bigger weakness than it was a strength. The earlier posted cleric setup was dead on. If a psi-warrior encountered any full-psi or a psi-monster his brain was toast thanks to this class "feature". If anyone attempted to multi-class into a psi-class they were toast in psi-combat thanks to this class "feature". As a 3.0 psi of any type if my DM would let me completely dump psi-combat and be treated as a non-psi I would have jumped all over it, because it is nothing more than a weakness.

If you want to have two psions duke it out mentally, fine, take the mind thrust power, or psi-blast, or any of the others, they still exist, and most of them are pretty decent powers. But if my psion is more of a grow giant claws and rip my opponent apart, I want to be able to rip your psion apart.

Part of your error comes from assuming psionic=telepathic. There are plenty of psions who have no ability whatsoever to affect their opponents minds. The can affect themselves, or the fabric of the universe, or whatever, but they are not telepathic in any form. Why should their minds automatically be open to assault?