Miko Blackguard Prediction (spoiler)

[Bel_Bel]

I think Miko is going to mess up with her distorted viewpoint, and become a blackguard in this scene.

What do you guys think?

[SilverClawShift]

Is this a joke? :smallconfused:

[RocketBard]

Not another Blackguard theory!:smallsigh:

[CardinalFang]

Where is the outsider in this scene?

[Basalock]

please die now(willing to help if needed)

[Spiryt]

Where is the outsider in this scene?

He is hiding behind curtain.

[CardinalFang]

He is hiding behind curtain.

Honestly, I was waiting for a "maybe the paladin in the cloak is an outsider."

[Spiryt]

Honestly, I was waiting for a "maybe the paladin in the cloak is an outsider."

I'm sorry that I dissapointed you. :smallbiggrin:

[PowerWordSneeze]

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w161/J_Lebowski/nooooooooooooooooo.jpg

DO NOT WANT!

[mockingbyrd7]

Honestly, I was waiting for a "maybe the paladin in the cloak is an outsider."

No, don't be silly, the guy in the helmet that blocks his eyes is OBVIOUSLY an outsider.

[CardinalFang]

No, don't be silly, the guy in the helmet that blocks his eyes is OBVIOUSLY an outsider.

Robopaladin? But I liked him...he had a cool helmet. :smallbiggrin:

[Icewalker]

I actually do believe this strip is heading towards Miko as blackguard.

She sees O-Chul in a position to smash the gate. She went up to protect the gate. She then sees that O-Chul was paralyzed by Xykon (nobody else there could have done it) so from Miko's viewpoint O-Chul appears to have turned traitor as well, but for some reason Xykon was trying to stop him. She didn't accept 'destroy it so it won't fall into the wrong hands' when OOTS said that either, why should she from O-Chul?

I dunno bout the outsider, but I can see this setting her down the path. At this point she has completely snapped, and is functioning along the lines of 'if I can do it, the gods are letting me do it, so thats what the gods want me to do'.

[Ridureyu]

It involves a dog, a signboard for ice cream, and clean windows.

[The Extinguisher]

Why Miko will never, ever, ever, become a Blackguard.

In the Oots world, you know your levels and manually choose what to level up as.

Maybe in a D&D game, you can become a Blackguard without knowing it, but when you control your classes, that's not going to happen. Miko is too lawful to be evil on purpose. And even if she becomes evil be accident, she will never believe she is, and thus, never become a Blackguard.

Miko as the Judge, Jury and Executioner makes a much better antagonist than Miko the Agent of Evil and Smiter of Good.

[Icewalker]

Well, the thing is, looking at Miko's logic, if she does go Blackguard she isn't going to be 'smite good, rar I'm evil' She is going to be completely deluded into thinking she is still doing the right thing.

But you are pretty right on that, she probably knows that blackguard = totally evil and as they choose how to level up she wouldn't go there unless she has an even more twisted leap of illogic.

[Tulisin]

Belkar crashes through the window via catapult *outsider* Eye of Fear and Flame in hand, both window and outsider problems solved.

[doliemaster]

Let me answer that theory with my own theory on this subject which I posted in my thread.
What happens is that Miko will stumble into the throne room, meet The President of 4!kids and be nice causing her to meet the blackguard criteia, but since that wouldn't fit with how she acts, The President of 4!kids will act on his master plan to ruin this webcomic by turning miko into a blackguard by screwing with her head via magic til' she is no longer miko but minna because obvouisly we can't have kids thinking japan is a real country, and that makes miko a blackguard.
This isn't an insult its just that there are to many damn threads like this.

[The_Weirdo]

Miko as the Judge, Jury and Executioner makes a much better antagonist than Miko the Agent of Evil and Smiter of Good.

She'd be a LE Warrior then? o_O

[The Extinguisher]

Yeah, but she wouldn't admit it. You kind of need to, in order to be a Blackguard.

That would be like a Paladin who thinks he's doing evil's work.

[DreadArchon]

Maybe Sabine went back to The Abyss and reported that her contact with Miko was friendly, prompting demons to give her blackguard powers. Miko will "Detect Evil," not knowing that she's actually Detect Good'ing, and Soon will read but Xykon won't. So she'll "Smite Evil" (Good) on Soon, and it'll work, and things will go downhill from there.

Or maybe she'll take her "will of the gods" thing to its logical extreme, assisted by Redcloak. To wit: She is the favored champion of the gods. Her actions are aided and abetted by the gods. The good gods are not providing her power; indeed, they have, for all intents and purposes, actually attacked her. Thus, logically, she must be a champion of the evil gods. After all, they'd not want to destroy all of creation, right? So, she should try to further their goals.


Perhaps there will be a similar exchange to that of Aribeth and Mephistopheles in Neverwinter Nights, such that Miko will decide she has been off-track her whole life and must now side with some dark power.

Mephy: "Join, blah blah blah, rule the galaxy as big dude and meatsack, etc."
Aribeth: "No! Tyr accepted me again! I am a Paladin!"
Mephy: "Wait, what? Tyr? Why would he accept you? I am the one who has been granting you spells, the entire time!"
Aribeth: "My unlife was a lie! I must get all angsty and join you, to be killed by Deekin and the PC!"

[Firestar27]

Although they choose how they level up, Miko is disregarding alignment readings in favor of what she believes. Remember, "Everyone in the room but you and I are agents of Evil, whether or not their alignments register as such". She might believe that the blackguard is not actually evil, but is in fact, the choice that the 12 gods want her to make. She might actually call the class a whiteguard to emphasize her point. If she sees Soon Kim making a shadow, then she might interpret that to mean that she must become a blackguard, regardless what an Evil alignment says about her.
Note: I don't actually believe in full, I'm just saying how Miko acts. But this probably won't happen, purely because the Giant doesn't put what the forumers say in his comics. If everyone thinks she will go blackguard, then he won't let her, just to be petty (according to him, that is partly why).

[GSFB]

In the Oots world, you know your levels and manually choose what to level up as.

But then, since Miko is an NPC, what she does is up to the DM.

Furthermore, let's assume that she is fully aware of her classes and levels and has free will to choose them as she advances. She is currently INSANE and will find a way to rationalize pretty much anything as "it is the will of the 12 Gods."

So if Satan himself appeared before her, said "join me and I will grant you great power that you can use to smite the evil Order of the Stick and restore order to Azure City," she would think "finally, the 12 Gods have sent me a sign telling me how to stop that evil Roy Greenhilt!" She would bow to Satan, assume the powers of the blackguard, see "good" Roy as "evil" in her own mind, and smite him. It would never occur to her that she wasn't working the will of her precious 12 Gods, because her success in killing Roy is obviously what the 12 Gods had planned for her all along.

That said, her transition to blackguard will be something clever and unexpected. The Giant is far too clever to throw something so cliche at us. So just sit back, enjoy the ride, and be surprised when Miko takes that unexpected turn somewhere.

[Imrahil]

"I must get all angsty and join you, to be killed by Deekin and the PC!"

You, sir, have just made my night with that dialogue.

[doliemaster]

What Satan? Their is no Satan, there are the Twelve gods, the norse pantheon and the other ones that I forget about, plus the SNarl, Satan does not exist in OOTS, plus you can't say any form of current religions people in this forum so edit your post to say one of the evil beings in the comic before I do something like wine that my religous status has been affected by using a name from your religion. Okay I probably won't wine but you will have offended me.

[Corwin Weber]

What Satan? Their is no Satan, there are the Twelve gods, the norse pantheon and the other ones that I forget about, plus the SNarl, Satan does not exist in OOTS, plus you can't say any form of current religions people in this forum so edit your post to say one of the evil beings in the comic before I do something like wine that my religous status has been affected by using a name from your religion. Okay I probably won't wine but you will have offended me.

Tricking a recently fallen paladin into becoming a blackguard instead of redeeming herself?

That has 'Loki' written all over it.

** edit because I just thought of it **

The whole 'don't mention any modern religion' rule kinda falls apart considering that the Norse gods are in fact still worshipped.

[delguidance]

"Whine" its "Whine"

From a story point of view, Miko falling would elevate her to a level of character development that competes with the Order.

[Droodle]

Where is the outsider in this scene?She's already had friendly contact with an outsider. :roach:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0373.html

[doliemaster]

Yeah it probably does, or maybe a somehow revived greek god say.... eris, now that would be cool, you know if the greek gods came back to life somehow and started messing with the world because of there not being there, but being there now.

[Admiral_Kelly]

What Satan? Their is no Satan, there are the Twelve gods, the norse pantheon and the other ones that I forget about, plus the SNarl, Satan does not exist in OOTS,We don't know if there is a Satan in the OotS universe or not. Probably not, but a Satan could exist in OotS universe. Also, he was speaking in a purely hypothetical manner.
plus you can't say any form of current religions people in this forum so edit your post to say one of the evil beings in the comic before I do something like wine that my religous status has been affected by using a name from your religion. Okay I probably won't wine but you will have offended me.You are offended because the name of a religious figure -one of which you do not believe in- is mentioned on a forum. Who cares? More importantly, Satan is a figure in folklore as well as religion, and we are not having a discussion on it so why not leave it in the thread? Next we won't be able to use the word "angels" or "gods".

[Green Bean]

Tricking a recently fallen paladin into becoming a blackguard instead of redeeming herself?

That has 'Loki' written all over it.

** edit because I just thought of it **

The whole 'don't mention any modern religion' rule kinda falls apart considering that the Norse gods are in fact still worshipped.

Of course, tricking a recently fallen paladin into redeeming herself instead of becoming a blackguard also has Loki written all over it. That's the great thing about being a trickster god; you can do whatever is funny.

[GSFB]

What Satan? Their is no Satan, there are the Twelve gods, the norse pantheon and the other ones that I forget about, plus the SNarl, Satan does not exist in OOTS, plus you can't say any form of current religions people in this forum so edit your post to say one of the evil beings in the comic before I do something like wine that my religous status has been affected by using a name from your religion. Okay I probably won't wine but you will have offended me.

Thor is an actual god from an actual, real, human pantheon, and yes, there are people out there who still worship the Norse gods. I know several.

And just because (insert name of any deity, real or otherwise, here) hasn't shown up yet in OOTS, doesn't mean he (or she, or they) can't. For the first few hundred strips, Thor and Loki had no competition from the 12 Gods. Then, all of a sudden like, we readers were exposed to, gasp, ANOTHER pantheon existing within the OOTS world.

According to the crayon flashbacks, there have been other pantheons in OOTS world as well. But we are not necessarily limited to the pantheons shown thus far. The Giant might decide, for plot purposes we cannot currently fathom, that some completely different pantheon might have to appear.

Or, Banjo the Clown might turn out to truly be the one true ubergod of OOTS.

And I know people out there who secretly worship Banjo, knowing this day shall come.

[Corwin Weber]

Of course, tricking a recently fallen paladin into redeeming herself instead of becoming a blackguard also has Loki written all over it. That's the great thing about being a trickster god; you can do whatever is funny.

I suppose it depends on who he's tricking really.

The Norse idea of Loki wasn't really that he was 'evil' per se... you're right. He was more of a weapon that Odin and the others sic'ced on people they didn't like or wanted something from. My suggestion would be a great joke against the Twelve Gods. Yours would be a great joke against the Fiends.

I suppose which would happen would depend largely on who had annoyed Loki or Odin recently. :biggrin:

[doliemaster]

Sorry 'bout that but school just got out and people in school shoved religion down my mouth so much I gotta alotta pent up rage, so again sorry, also the part about being offended was more a joke, but I still do get mad, that should end after a couple of no-one shoving religion down my throat days.
Again I apologize.

[GSFB]

The best way to get back at people for shoving religion down your throat is to not get worked up about it. Let it go. When you feel rage, you empower your enemy. They want to get you worked up. When you do, they win.

Remember, the only person who can make you believe in any religion (or none at all) is you. So ignore them, and have confidence in your own faith, whatever it may be.

Hail Xenu!

[doliemaster]

Ummmm its no faith, I don't like to believe in all-controlling super-beings. Except rockbands, wallmart, bill gates, and as an evil starbucks, but no over all religion.

[Ridureyu]

Where I live, people shove atheism down your throat. Life balances itself!

[Renegade Paladin]

What Satan? Their is no Satan, there are the Twelve gods, the norse pantheon and the other ones that I forget about, plus the SNarl, Satan does not exist in OOTS, plus you can't say any form of current religions people in this forum so edit your post to say one of the evil beings in the comic before I do something like wine that my religous status has been affected by using a name from your religion. Okay I probably won't wine but you will have offended me.
So should he use Mephistopheles instead? Oh wait, that's a real-world religious demonic entity. Baphomet? Oops, that's one too. Asmodeus? Yup. Dispater? Uh huh. Belial? Hey, thought I might have had one that wasn't there... Look, you'd have a hard time finding an archdevil who isn't named after a <name of a certain widespread religion redacted> demonic entity of some sort. In terms of relationship to real-world religion, there's no real functional difference between Satan and Demogorgon; it's just that one is more famous. So to sum up, we've got much ado about nothing here.

Anyway, to the original topic, Miko isn't going to become a blackguard, if for no other reason because she can't. There's a lot of prerequisites in there that she simply fails to meet, willingness to actually serve evil among them.

[Recurve]

Miko is most definitely not headed toward Blackguard-dom. She is not insane. She is a fanatic with very high standards for what she considers 'good'.

Notice she has sometimes mistaken good people as evil, but she has never mistaken someone evil as good. The former is a sign of fanaticism, the latter (which she has never demonstrated) would indicate insanity, which is why I believe it's a misnomer for people to continue carelessly labeling her as 'insane' (not really a descriptive term used by legit psychologists anymore anyway).

Listen to what she says in 461, "It all makes sense now. I understand what I need to do." These are the words of a fatalist or a martyr.

Mark my words: Miko will die (or put herself greatly in harm's way) in the next strip where we see her. She will not knowingly join forces with evil beings.

[Tobrian]

Why Miko will never, ever, ever, become a Blackguard.

In the Oots world, you know your levels and manually choose what to level up as.

Maybe in a D&D game, you can become a Blackguard without knowing it, but when you control your classes, that's not going to happen.

Agreed.


Miko is too lawful to be evil on purpose. And even if she becomes evil be accident, she will never believe she is, and thus, never become a Blackguard.

Huh? D&D alignment doesnt work like that.


Miko as the Judge, Jury and Executioner makes a much better antagonist than Miko the Agent of Evil and Smiter of Good.

She's prime material for the Mercykiller PrC (from Planescape setting), one of the more self-righteous and homicidal factions in Sigil: those who kill without mercy because they see themselves as punishers of criminals (they don't really care about good or evil so much as about punishment), unfortunately they believe that everyone is guilty of something, everyone that is of course except themselves. (They never apply the same rules to themselves as to others, which in my book doesn't even make them lawful even though they continuously use "the Law" or laws as excuse to do what they do.) They, like Miko, are a law unto themselves.

Or its nearest non-Planescape 3.5 equivalent, the Gray Guard (from Complete Scoundrel) who just loves to torture confessions out of those in his grasp... mind you, I firmly believe that the Gray Guard is lawful evil or at least lawful neutral, not lawful good.

That, or Avenging Executioner PrC (from Complete Scoundrel), living only for revenge and fury. She's too crazy to be suitable for the Justiciar PrC (from Complete Warrior).


Miko is most definitely not headed toward Blackguard-dom. She is not insane. She is a fanatic with very high standards for what she considers 'good'.

Bull****. Fanatics who no longer listen to anyone but the voices in their head ARE lunatics in my opinion. At some point, such behaviour is no longer a sign of dedication to a cause but becomes a full-fledged psychosis.


Notice she has sometimes mistaken good people as evil, but she has never mistaken someone evil as good.

Given that most of the evil villain types in the OotS universe are of the "mwahahaha I'm evil!" type that openly slaughters people, that would be a hard mistake to make.

She already gets a false positive one way (mistaking non-evil for evil), who says you have to make the same mistake both ways before you're eligible for being called crazy? She keeps jumping to conclusions, acting on bizarre notions. She is not willing to admit she can make mistakes, and considers herself divinely guided, while at the same time ignoring the actual will of the gods - those same gods who punished her with loss of her paladin powers in the first place.


The former is a sign of fanaticism, the latter (which she has never demonstrated) would indicate insanity, which is why I believe it's a misnomer for people to continue carelessly labeling her as 'insane' (not really a descriptive term used by legit psychologists anymore anyway).

Fine, next time we'll all consult the Oxford Handbook of Psychiatry or the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders for the proper medical terms before we post, ok?


Listen to what she says in 461, "It all makes sense now. I understand what I need to do." These are the words of a fatalist or a martyr.

Or the words of a paranoid schizophrenic who selectively sees what she wants to see, and then uses that as a excuse to do what she wants to do, absolving herself of all responsiblity because she's "only following the will of the gods", and everyone else who tries to stop her is clearly conspiring against her.

[Driderman]

Why Miko Won't become a Blackguard:

How would Belkar ever get to kill Windstriker?

[Khatoblepas]

Why Miko Won't become a Blackguard:

How would Belkar ever get to kill Windstriker?

Don't Blackguards get a mount anyway? After all, Belkar didn't specify Windstriker, he said "Miko's Stupid Horse". An eeeeeeeeeeevil Windstriker, maybe?

She's got all the qualifications for Blackguard, anyway.She's even shown that she can Cleave. And Power Attack. with her FOOT. (Kicking a dead gobbo's head into another in one fell swoop - sounds like a power attacking great cleavage to me. Especially against a Flat Footed foe.) After all, she doesn't seem to believe that she's being evil, and she's frightfully optimised for a Pally/Monk. Blackguard would just be her "getting her powers back." if she traded her levels in.

[Ladorak]

Yeah it probably does, or maybe a somehow revived greek god say.... eris, now that would be cool

Not actually a goddess... And please don't google or Wikapedia some link stating that she is because the standard of information you get on the internet regarding Greek Mythology is laughable.


Thor is an actual god from an actual, real, human pantheon, and yes, there are people out there who still worship the Norse gods. I know several.

Really? Do they sacrifice a human life on Summer solstice? (Incidently if they do, you'd best hide, as I believe it's tomorrow) 'Cos if they don't then they 'worship' the Norse gods about as much as mass murders worship Buddha.

[TranquilRage]

Not actually a goddess... And please don't google or Wikapedia some link stating that she is because the standard of information you get on the internet regarding Greek Mythology is laughable.

More correctly its "Strife" who was the personification of, funnily enough, Strife. Translated as Discord into Latin. However the Greek is Έρις which is commonly translated as Eris. Its accepted that the Goddess Eris, the Goddess Strife and Discordia all refer to the same ancient Goddess. If you know something everyone else doesnt you could educate the masses by updating Wikipedia.

[Driderman]

Really? Do they sacrifice a human life on Summer solstice? (Incidently if they do, you'd best hide, as I believe it's tomorrow) 'Cos if they don't then they 'worship' the Norse gods about as much as mass murders worship Buddha.

Much like real catholics still burn witches at the stake and believe the world is flat?
You know, there are such things as 'modernized' religious practices... For example worshipping the Aesir without human sacrifice

[Ladorak]

Eris is an immortal, not a god. The two words are largely interchangeable in the ancient tongue, but the difference is important. Nymphs etc are immortals, as are a number of women Odysseus meets in the Odyssey.

There are only 12 'gods' (What we would call gods), the Olympian gods, incidentally this does mean Hades is not a god, despite a position of power that only his brothers better. Everything else is an immortal, hence Eris = Not an Olympian = Immortal.

And I don’t update Wikapedia because if you rewrite that Venus is the goddess of sex, not love, someone who has preconceptions will rewrite in double quick time, despite the fact that ‘love’ was an unknown concept in early Roman life.


You know, there are such things as 'modernized' religious practices... For example worshipping the Aesir without human sacrifice

So how exactly do they worship? Or more to the point what do they worship? They may claim they are offering libations to Obin, Thor etc. but the true Norse gods will have little in common with these 'modern interpretations.'

So you invent your own god with it's own morality but you want to gain some credibility so you steal the name of some long forgotten panthon because there's nobody left to argue the point. They don't worship the Norse gods, they worship things they claim to be the Norse gods, and frankly that's a good thing... They weren't nice people you know

[Driderman]

Khatoblepas: Actually, I don't think Blackguards get mounts. They get some sort of Fiendish servant, if I remember correctly. Unless of course there's some 'Keep your paladin-abilities' variant, which wouldn't surprise me much

[Renegade Paladin]

Khatoblepas: Actually, I don't think Blackguards get mounts. They get some sort of Fiendish servant, if I remember correctly. Unless of course there's some 'Keep your paladin-abilities' variant, which wouldn't surprise me much
They get a fiendish servant, but can choose for that servant to be a warhorse.

[Jayabalard]

And I don’t update Wikapedia because if you rewrite that Venus is the goddess of sex, not love, someone who has preconceptions will rewrite in double quick time, despite the fact that ‘love’ was an unknown concept in early Roman life.If you have sources, then you should update wikipedia and cite those sources; that's how wikipedia works. You might run into a couple of non-wikipedians that would rewrite it to be love rather than sex, but as long as you're not just stating your opinion or posting original research, most people won't revert your changes. Somehow, I doubt that you have sources that would deny that Eris is a greek goddess that are as good as the sources that are used in the wikipedia to claim that she is a greek goddess... or else you wouldn't be so afraid to correct the wiki article.

by the way... if you're talking about Greek gods, don't you mean Aphrodite rather than Venus? Certainly the romans stole the Greek gods, but you should at least keep your naming consistent...

[Ladorak]

And I don’t update Wikapedia because if you rewrite that Venus is the goddess of sex, not love, someone who has preconceptions will rewrite in double quick time, despite the fact that ‘love’ was an unknown concept in early Roman life.


I'm sorry was that not clear enough?

[Kreistor]

Miko is not actually that far from Blackguard potential. She is already delusional, seeing good people as evil. All she needs now is to see evil people as good.

And that might be her latest insight. She sees O-Chul attacking the throne, which Miko is sworn to protect, and Xykon is defending it. Even Soon is acting against Xykon.

Once she takes that step, Miko is flipped and evil has become good. The step after that is deciding that she needs to restore her power level inorder to combat the OotS. They're "good", so she needs "evil" power in order to fight them well.

Ironically, this leads to Belkar causing her death. He's immune to Smite Good and Sneak Attack (if he continues with Barbarian). Miko makes herself better against everyone else in the OotS, but she weakens herself against the one person that would love to eat her heart.

[factotum]

Belkar crashes through the window via catapult *outsider* Eye of Fear and Flame in hand, both window and outsider problems solved.

Nope. The Eye of Fear and Flame Rich is using is an undead, NOT an outsider. (The EoFaF has appeared as both in the game literature, which explains the confusion).

[Driderman]

They get a fiendish servant, but can choose for that servant to be a warhorse.

Hehehe....
What kind of Blackguard would choose a devil-horse as a servant? I mean, they can get hellish incarnations of death and doom or luscious succubi/Erynies to serve their twisted whims. Why on earth would anyone choose a horse??

[Ladorak]

Could get a Nightmare. Nothing says 'badass' like a black horse on fire... I mean, if it's meant to be on fire

[TheSaylesMan]

Much like real catholics still burn witches at the stake and believe the world is flat?
You know, there are such things as 'modernized' religious practices... For example worshipping the Aesir without human sacrifice

Burning witches at the stake and other such things are not, and were not religious ceremonies, nor were they integral to the faith of Catholicism.

A more apt example of the evolution of religion would be individuals not believing in the transubstantiation of the Eucharist into te actual flesh and blood of Christ. Plenty of these people exist, they're just members of the many Protestant churches out there.

A person who worships the Norse gods, and doesn't partake in human sacrifice is a lot like the example given above.

They would be considered part of a sect that has branched off from the original religion.

Now, enough of my ramblings on religion. Its time to get to the topic on hand!

I think it is possible that Miko could become a Blackguard, but I don't think she will because it may put her on the same side as Redcloak, whom I believe she is more obligated to kill because he is the ancestral enemy of her former order.

[DreadArchon]

This just occured to me. This is how I would handle this:
(1) Sabine has reported that her contact with Miko was actually peaceful, so as to get at least a partial bonus if Miko decides to become a blackguard later. Alternatively, Miko has met an Evil Outsider peacefully in the past, with or without knowing it.

(2) Miko yells out "Gods, grant me the power to strike down this undead abomination!" and hits Soon.

(3) Soon is good, right? So, perhaps the gods--the evil ones--will answer her prayer literally by giving her Smite Good... via blackguard levels. She might think it's actually Smite Evil, but by the time she finds out, she'll have fallen too far and it will be too late.

[Lord Zentei]

She's already had friendly contact with an outsider. :roach:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0373.html

That contact was anything but friendly.

[David Argall]

The "outsider" considered it friendly and presumably would be willing to do her the necessary favors.

Mind you, we don't know it is an outsider, or that Miko would even consider the idea, or even that the writer will be that rules fussy, but there is no clear blockage here.

[Lord Zentei]

The "outsider" considered it friendly and presumably would be willing to do her the necessary favors.

Mind you, we don't know it is an outsider, or that Miko would even consider the idea, or even that the writer will be that rules fussy, but there is no clear blockage here.

No, the outsider did not consider it friendly at all. Review the comic:

-- "It was horrible".

-- "Show me on the doll where she touched you".

Sorry, not friendly.

[Ladorak]

You left out being oppressed, being used as a lighter and being blown up.

[Lord Zentei]

You left out being oppressed, being used as a lighter and being blown up.

Indeed. Though that would have been somewhat redundant. :smallwink: The quote summed it up well enough.

In any case, she needs another encounter for blackguard-dom, and there aren't any evil outsiders in the immediate area.

[Ganurath]

What about Sabine? I know Miko snapped her neck and all, but she got better, and was still eager and willing to help her out. Sabine herself was nothing but nice to Miko, so couldn't that be considered the friendly encounter?

[Ladorak]

Where I come from snapping someone's neck isn't considered friendly... Boy am I glad I don't live were you do.

[Moik]

If the Gods wanted Miko to stay in prison, they would not have cracked the bars.
If the Gods did not want Miko to be free, they would have put guards in her way.
Et cetera.

She's looking at everything as the Gods will. Whatever is, is their will.

If the Gods wanted the Sapphire Guard to win, they would not be defeated by evil.

She is seeing that the Gods want evil to win.

She follows the Gods Will.

She will become evil.

Sorry.

[Lord Zentei]

She is seeing that the Gods want evil to win.

That's an assumption. There is frankly no way of telling what she is thinking at this stage.

[TranquilRage]

If you have sources, then you should update wikipedia and cite those sources; that's how wikipedia works. You might run into a couple of non-wikipedians that would rewrite it to be love rather than sex, but as long as you're not just stating your opinion or posting original research, most people won't revert your changes. Somehow, I doubt that you have sources that would deny that Eris is a greek goddess that are as good as the sources that are used in the wikipedia to claim that she is a greek goddess... or else you wouldn't be so afraid to correct the wiki article.

Exactly, any article on wikipedia that doesnt supply enough supporting information gets corrected / disputed / marked as unsupported, thats the point of a wiki. If you look at the revision history i cant see anyone ever raising the point let alone trying to argue it. Also, the Olympians were the 10 (might be 12) principal gods, they did not make up the pantheon in its entirity.


by the way... if you're talking about Greek gods, don't you mean Aphrodite rather than Venus? Certainly the romans stole the Greek gods, but you should at least keep your naming consistent...

Correct

[Ladorak]

This time do I have to write 'early Roman life' in bold and increase the font side? Maybe I could write it in red as well. Or maybe in mile high letters of flame.


And I don’t update Wikapedia because if you rewrite that Venus is the goddess of sex, not love, someone who has preconceptions will rewrite in double quick time, despite the fact that ‘love’ was an unknown concept in early Roman life.

Clear enough yet?

Aphrodite was the goddess of love, hence why I didn't she she was not the goddess of love. I said Venus was not the goddess of love because she is not the goddess of love. I fear I cannot make this simpler.

Please people, any academic worth his salt, and most who aren't will tell you the same thing about wiki, use it, but verify everything because it cannot be trusted. As an example of this one of my lecturers went onto wiki and rewrote an entry so it read all Romans were Hamsters. It remained up for over two weeks

[Kaziel]

Where is the outsider in this scene?While I think that it's a far stretch... but... The Snarl?

[David Argall]

No, the outsider did not consider it friendly at all. Review the comic:

-- "It was horrible".

-- "Show me on the doll where she touched you".

Sorry, not friendly.

You are thinking of the wrong "outsider". See MITD

[Twilight Jack]

You are thinking of the wrong "outsider". See MITD

Oh? The probably not-an-outsider MitD who knocked her and her horse through a frickin' wall?!?

That "outsider?"

[Ladorak]

Ah, my mistake. However 'friendly' has to be on both sides... Miko was never friendly to him, although she pretended to be. I was kinda disappointed she didn't use detect evil on him though...

[Lord Zentei]

You are thinking of the wrong "outsider". See MITD

:smallconfused: Then there seems to be a bit of a disconnect between our posts.

See the exchange:


She's already had friendly contact with an outsider. :roach:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0373.html


That contact was anything but friendly.


The "outsider" considered it friendly and presumably would be willing to do her the necessary favors.

Mind you, we don't know it is an outsider, or that Miko would even consider the idea, or even that the writer will be that rules fussy, but there is no clear blockage here.

I was under the impression that you were responding to my post immediately previous to yours, where I was in turn responding to someone who brought up the roaches (I assume that it was the roaches being referenced because of the post in question included the roach smiley rather than the MitD smiley).

But if not, you must have been responding to someone else, yes?

[Adeptus]

Not actually a goddess... And please don't google or Wikapedia some link stating that she is because the standard of information you get on the internet regarding Greek Mythology is laughable.



Really? Do they sacrifice a human life on Summer solstice? (Incidently if they do, you'd best hide, as I believe it's tomorrow) 'Cos if they don't then they 'worship' the Norse gods about as much as mass murders worship Buddha.

Wow, what a condicending attitude. Are you saying that all through the viking age that one act separated true worshippers from false ones? By that logic jews, moslems and christians should be sacrificing goats because that was done in the old testament.

Stop insulting the Ásatrú please. It's just as valid a religion as christianity or buddhism. Oh, and wikipedia is perfectly fine as a quick reference into mythology.

[Poppatomus]

Wow, what a condicending attitude. Are you saying that all through the viking age that one act separated true worshippers from false ones? By that logic jews, moslems and christians should be worshipping goats because that was done in the old testament.

Stop insulting the Ásatrú please. It's just as valid a religion as christianity or buddhism. Oh, and wikipedia is perfectly fine as a quick reference into mythology.

Not being one that suppports misrepresnting other people's religions (though I do support jokes about all religions if they are funny) I have to note that the old testament doesn't say anything about worshipping goats. It does talk about offering animals up an certain occasions to expiate sin or celebrate god, etc... but nothing about worshiping any kind of animal.

If what was said about the Ásatrú is wrong, by all means correct it, but not by going after the faith of others, especially if you're wrong.

[Ladorak]

Not quite the same ball game. This is a core point of the faith.

Christian that has sex before getting married = Bad Christian
Christian that doesn't believe in Christ = Not a Christian, claims to be one,

Pagan that still does Christmas = Bad Pagan
Pagan that doesn't mark the holy days in the correct way = Not a Pagan, claims to be one.

[David Argall]

‘love’ was an unknown concept in early Roman life.


It might be seriously argued that it was not an approved of concept in Roman times, but that the concept didn't exist? Most unlikely. In fact the concept, in one form or another, likely existed before humanity did.

It is a common mistake for scholars to assume the first surviving reference to something is close to the first time something existed. Often enough that is the case. Areas where there are rapid changes are pretty good this way. But many concepts are effectively automatically known to any human anywhere, anywhen, and the first written reference refers to something long known to all.
A practical problem for anything dating before 1500 is that there is a serious to overwhelming shortage of sources. We can have barely a page of ancient writing compared to entire libraries from modern sources. And that page has been recopied a dozen times by those of varying skills, not to mention being a nearly random survivor of a few dozen pages that are lost to us. Under such conditions, saying a concept didn't exist before a given date is merely arguing from ignorance.

Now we can note that love was not viewed as nearly as positive an emotion as we do. Marrying for love was often deemed folly, insanity, or even criminal. One's parents often made the choice of partner, without the couple even meeting. But that the concept didn't exist is just wrong.

Of course, we do have to consider definitions. Love has lots of definitions and confusion over which one we are discussing can prolong a discussion to absurd lengths. So you might include a definition of what type of love did not exist in Roman times.

[Adeptus]

Please people, any academic worth his salt, and most who aren't will tell you the same thing about wiki, use it, but verify everything because it cannot be trusted. As an example of this one of my lecturers went onto wiki and rewrote an entry so it read all Romans were Hamsters. It remained up for over two weeks

Any actual person, let along an academic, that would do that is a complete a$$hat. If you actually have a lecturer like that it propably explanes a thing or two of your debating style.

Sabotaging a bright project like Wikipedia out of petty spite. How grand.

[Ladorak]

Love did exist, we have examples of Roman citizens who were almost certainly in love. But it was not a concept, there was no word for it, it was unknown, nobody dreamed of such a thing, a early Republican Roman that tried to explain to his fellows such a feeling would be thought mad.


Any actual person, let along an academic, that would do that is a complete a$$hat. If you actually have a lecturer like that it propably explanes a thing or two of your debating style.

Sabotaging a bright project like Wikipedia out of petty spite. How grand.

Or MAYBE, just maybe, if you could open your mind to such a concept.... She was attempting to stop a whole academic year from failing their first year by giving fairly compelling evidence that Wiki is not to be trusted on academic matters, and maybe the reason she felt such measures were needed is because some people seem unnaturally attached to Wiki

[Adeptus]

Not being one that suppports misrepresnting other people's religions (though I do support jokes about all religions if they are funny) I have to note that the old testament doesn't say anything about worshipping goats. It does talk about offering animals up an certain occasions to expiate sin or celebrate god, etc... but nothing about worshiping any kind of animal.

If what was said about the Ásatrú is wrong, by all means correct it, but not by going after the faith of others, especially if you're wrong.

Drat! A weird typo... I must be too tired. I'll fix it.

[Poppatomus]

Can someone explain the origin of this whole, "romans didn't know about love" bit? I mean, hadn't Aristotle outlined something like eight different kinds of love almost hundreds of years earlier? and wasn't Greek philosophy heavily cribbed by the Romans, in addition to their theology.

I understand that the actual expressions of "love" and their distribution both in society and between individuals differed with the structure of their society, as compared to ours. So I can see where aphrodite may not have been the god of "love" but surely the concept itself existed.

[Adeptus]

Or MAYBE, just maybe, if you could open your mind to such a concept.... She was attempting to stop a whole academic year from failing their first year by giving fairly compelling evidence that Wiki is not to be trusted on academic matters, and maybe the reason she felt such measures were needed is because some people seem unnaturally attached to Wiki

Wikipedia is the work of thousands of volunteers, created for the benefit of mankind. A single lecturer who thinks making a point to her students is so important that she has to sabotage a part of it has a seriously overinflated evaluation of her own work and an equally serious lack of respect for the work of others.

Again, not the sort of an academic that one should look up to.

[Ladorak]

Can someone explain the origin of this whole, "romans didn't know about love" bit? I mean, hadn't Aristotle outlined something like eight different kinds of love almost hundreds of years earlier? and wasn't Greek philosophy heavily cribbed by the Romans, in addition to their theology.

I understand that the actual expressions of "love" and their distribution both in society and between individuals differed with the structure of their society, as compared to ours. So I can see where aphrodite may not have been the god of "love" but surely the concept itself existed.

Ah, someone with an open mind, how refreshing, thank you sir, you are a prince among men.

No, the concept didn't. There was no word for it... In later years Catullus (A poet) would write endless reems in Latin trying to express the feeling of love because there was no word for it. Of course Romans were human and thus could still fall in love, but explaining it to the society as a whole would be rather like trying to tell a blind man what colours are like.

Rome is founded as a Republic about 500 BC, Aristotle in born 384 BC, he's the one that outlines the idea of feelings being the result of emotions, before him any feeling was a result of the gods (Which is why we divide the gods from the immortals). The Macedonia wars (When Greek wisdom defuses to Rome via a slave population) begin properly in 199 BC. This is when the idea of love defuses to the Roman populus, where it becomes something to be repressed, something shameful for another hundred years or so

Now please let this die... I'm not one of those people who enjoy using the internet to appear smart, anyone who's done the same courses as me will know this stuff too, but I won't stop argueing if people keep trying to fault me.


Again, not the sort of an academic that one should look up to.
Ah, now in this we agree. But the ones I do look up to say the same thing... Use Wiki, fail

[Poppatomus]

Ah, someone with an open mind, how refreshing, thank you sir, you are a prince among men.

Now please let this die... I'm not one of those people who enjoy using the internet to appear smart, anyone who's done the same courses as me will know this stuff too, but I won't stop argueing if people keep trying to fault me.


I'm happy to let it die, but when there's an opportunity to learn something one is obligated to seize it. oh, thanks by the way. (too much time in those stupid IR classes to learn about classics)

[Ridureyu]

#1. Use Wikipedia for Serious Research = The Twelve Gods take away your Scholarship powers.


#2. By the first century, the Greek language had a whole bunch of words for different kinds of love, with definitions varying from Erotic (Eros - the root word) to brotherly love (Phileo... may have messed up the spelling). So by that time, the concept had definitely evolved well.



Wikipedia is the work of thousands of volunteers, created for the benefit of mankind.

And for this reason, we get pages transformed into "STFU!!!111", or the gender pronouns for a video game character changed back and forth.

[Ladorak]

Oh, I wasn't talking to you Poppatomus, please any questions feel free to ask I'll be happy to answer, by PM. I simply meant let the arguement die

[the_tick_rules]

are the roaches even outsiders anyways?

[Ladorak]

they're fiendish... Can't remember if that counts or not.

[Poppatomus]

It's implied when they are introduced that they are demons, which would mean outsiders. But friendly contact does not include, "picking up and using as a lighter against one's will." at least last I checked.

Thanks for the offer Ladorak, should you ever have a question about IR, though no one ever does, feel free to do the same.

[jamroar]

are the roaches even outsiders anyways?

Well, they're Demon Roaches, so yes.
However, Sabine has established that "friendly contact" involves the subject consciously signing on with a fiendish agent to get in on the Blackguard package. (which is not explicitly stated but implied in the rules).

[Corwin Weber]

I think we have to remember who and what we're talking about here.

Sabine clearly didn't consider the contact to be unfriendly. Yes, Miko broke her neck.

Erm, hi. Sabine is a supernatrual being. Miko 'attacked' her using an attack she bloody well knew wouldn't actually hurt Sabine at all.... and was entirely unsurprised when it didn't.

You can make the argument that it was nothing more than posturing, and that there was no actual malicious intent at all. She was establishing a show of force to up the price for her allegiance, or simply to gain the upper hand in the situation. This would be pretty normal among evil warriors and outsiders. (Look at the stereotype evil warrior.... punches anybody who annoys him. This doesn't stop the punched individual from working for/with the guy....)

And since you can make the argument, you can be quite sure Sabine can, and very likely will. (She's a devil, remember? Lawful evil? Come on people.... you think we have some anal-retentive rules lawyers on this forum?!?!?!?!? The worst here couldn't hold a candle to Sabine and her superiors....)

[Renegade Paladin]

Hehehe....
What kind of Blackguard would choose a devil-horse as a servant? I mean, they can get hellish incarnations of death and doom or luscious succubi/Erynies to serve their twisted whims. Why on earth would anyone choose a horse??
One whose player actually read the rules for fiendish servants (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/blackguard.htm#theBlackguardsFiendishServant). :smallamused: It has to be an animal with the fiendish template; you can't get a succubus.

[DreadArchon]

She's a devil, remember? Lawful evil? Come on people.... you think we have some anal-retentive rules lawyers on this forum?)
Bat wings make her Chaotic.

[Kreistor]

Corwin, actually, miko has Improved unarmed Strike, making her unarmed attacks lethal, an we have pretty good evidence that she has Power Attack, which does work with Unarmed attacks (see the Class and Level Geekery thread for arguments on this). So, she can probably overcome Sabine's damage reduction.

[Cybaster]

What about Sabine? I know Miko snapped her neck and all, but she got better, and was still eager and willing to help her out. Sabine herself was nothing but nice to Miko, so couldn't that be considered the friendly encounter?

Not even. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0371.html)

If the DM is really mean, he/she could count those few minutes Miko was in captivity, talking to Xykon and Redcloak, as a peaceful encounter, and Xykon's enough of an Evil Outsider (if stupid :P) to count. And the SRD Blackguard doesn't really specify that Miko needs to have a peaceful contact with the same Evil Outsider willing to sponsor her (nor does it specify how long the peaceful contact at least has to be).

So her peaceful contact is with Xykon, but her sponsorship towards Blackguard can be with the Snarl (and is likely with the Snarl, since there's no telling how far back it's already tampered with Miko's thinking). Both PrC requirements fulfilled right there.

The main problem with Miko's characterization is that she's been set up so distinctly to antagonize the Order of the Stick by now, the only way she can keep doing so at this point is to turn outright evil (and the most beneficial way for Miko to do so is to turn Blackguard and not waste her Fallen Paladin levels). I don't see her exactly becoming a Blackguard of the Snarl as much as an Avatar (basically the Snarl acting through her, and whatever left of Miko's thoughts and soul destroyed utterly), though.

[Driderman]

One whose player actually read the rules for fiendish servants (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/blackguard.htm#theBlackguardsFiendishServant). :smallamused: It has to be an animal with the fiendish template; you can't get a succubus.

Hmm, well whaddya know?
I was pretty sure they could have Vrocks though, but maybe I'm confusing it with Neverwinter Nights or 3.0 rules...