The Best Ways to Become a Lich?

[Draconium]

I was just curious about what you guys think is the best way to achieve Lichdom by ECL 20, while still getting 9th level spells, as a Tier 1 or 2 fullcaster. I've been debating on how the best way to do this is, but I'm really not sure.

Now, I realize that this is probably a very subjective question, and that different people might have different answers, but I'd like to know all the possibilities, if there are indeed multiple.

The only way I can think of to do this off the top of my head is to go Cleric 3 > Walker in the Waste 10 > Cleric (or some other PrC that gives full cleric casting) +7, for the Dry Lich template and CL 18. However, I'm more curious about how to do it with the normal Lich template. I'm just not exactly sure how.

[Inevitability]

LA buyoff?

[Andezzar]

Cleric 3 /Walker in the Waste 10/Cleric 7 is ECL 25, not 20. The template is applied at WitW 10 in total, including the LA.

The only way I can think of is using Ur-Priest and taking the create Wondrous Item feat to become a lich by fiat.
Classes that enable Ur-Priest 5/Ur-Priest 10/other class 1 with the Lich Template is ECL 20.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Cleric 3 /Walker in the Waste 10/Cleric 7 is ECL 25, not 20. The template is applied at WitW 10 in total, including the LA.

[citation needed]

The 10 levels you spent in WitW are your LA, based off of past rulings with respect to things like Dragon Disciple.

[Andezzar]

The 10 levels you spent in WitW are your LA, based off of past rulings with respect to things like Dragon Disciple.Dragon Disciple has no such rule. That is a popular houserule, but a houserule nonetheless.

For the Walker in the Waste:
On reaching 10th level,
you learn to apply the secrets of waste preservation to your own body, becoming a dry lich. You must undergo the Sere Rite, overseen by another dry lich, which includes preserving your flesh, removing your organs and storing them in special canopic jars, and imbuing your body with foul magic to make it undying

"Dry lich" is an acquired template that can be added to any living creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature), provided it can create the required canopic jars and undergo the Sere Rite (see below).
A dry lich has all the base creature's statistics and special abilities except as noted here.
[...]
Level Adjustment: Same as the base creature + 5

[Draconium]

Dragon Disciple has no such rule. That is a popular houserule, but a houserule nonetheless.

For the Walker in the Waste:

Well, I have not actually met a DM that would rule that you take the +3 LA from Dragon Disciple, nor the +5 from WitW, because forcing you to take on LA (which is already poorly designed) as a class feature is just penalizing the player. For the purposes of this discussion, then, please presume that the DM will not make me take the LA from class-granted templates, regardless of the actual rules on them.

[Florian]

In this case, I agree with Andezzar. The PrC gives you all the prereqs for the transformation and that's it.

But what I'm not sure about is the aforementioned Dragon Disciple. My last knowledge on PrC/Classes to directly provide a template was, that there will be no LA for it.

[Andezzar]

But what I'm not sure about is the aforementioned Dragon Disciple. My last knowledge on PrC/Classes to directly provide a template was, that there will be no LA for it.Please quote that rule.

[Balmas]

I'm surprised no-one has mentioned Dread Necromancer. Full T-2 casting class, with a focus on necromancy, minionmancy, and using negative energy to heal both yourself and your minions. And becoming a Lich is your level 20 capstone. Pretty sure it's LA-free, too, in as much as you can call 20 levels of an arcane class to be LA free.

[Andezzar]

Dread Necromancer 20 is at least ECL 24:

When a dread necromancer attains 20th level, she undergoes a hideous transformation and becomes a lich. Her type changes to undead, and she gains all the traits of the undead (see page 317 of the Monster Manual). She no longer has a Constitution score, all her existing Hit Dice become d12s, and she must reroll her hit points. A dread necromancer need not pay experience points or gold to create her phylactery.Except for waiving the XP and gold cost on the phylactery that is exactly like adding the template. So LA is also added.

[Draconium]

Dread Necromancer 20 is at least ECL 24:
Except for waiving the XP and gold cost on the phylactery that is exactly like adding the template. So LA is also added.

Except it never actually says you gain the template, by the very rule you quoted. It says you become a Lich, but never actually mentions the Lich template, and the only direct similarities it says you have from that are the Undead type and the phylactery.

That said, I thought to DN was Tier 3?

[Andezzar]

Except it never actually says you gain the template, by the very rule you quoted. It says you become a Lich, but never actually mentions the Lich template, and the only direct similarities it says you have from that are the Undead type and the phylactery.
Besides the lich template there is no other lich. You cannot become a lich without adding the template.

[Draconium]

Besides the lich template there is no other lich. You cannot become a lich without adding the template.

Except, you know, fluff. Which that line was. As far as I'm aware, if the class feature doesn't specifically say you gain something, you don't gain it. It never says you gain a template from DN, so therefore, I'd imagine that you don't.

[Andezzar]

If you don't gain the template you don't gain abilities of the template. So the dread necromancer does not reform after being destroyed, he gets no natural armor bonus, no paralyzing touch, nothing from the template, just what the rule says: no CON score, undead traits and 20 rerolls on the hit points.

That weak undead has nothing to do with a lich.

[Draconium]

If you don't gain the template you don't gain abilities of the template. So the dread necromancer does not reform after being destroyed, he gets no natural armor bonus, no paralyzing touch, nothing from the template, just what the rule says: no CON score, undead traits and 20 rerolls on the hit points.

That weak undead has nothing to do with a lich.

It does say he gains a phylactery, though it doesn't say what exactly this can do. Other than that, yes, that's completely correct by RAW.

Which is one of the reasons we need RAI. Because RAW is a mess. RAI obviously interprets the DN' s transformation as at least giving them the reformation ability. It also interprets that a class like the Dragon Disciple doesn't take the LA at the last level, because that's needlessly penalizing the player. (Granted, WitW being interpreted as finding you the LA is more understandable, but I don't think Dry Lich is worth the +5, and it doesn't overpower the player to gain in for free at WitW 10, IMO.)

[Balmas]

It does say he gains a phylactery, though it doesn't say what exactly this can do. Other than that, yes, that's completely correct by RAW.

Which is one of the reasons we need RAI. Because RAW is a mess. RAI obviously interprets the DN' s transformation as at least giving them the reformation ability. It also interprets that a class like the Dragon Disciple doesn't take the LA at the last level, because that's needlessly penalizing the player. (Granted, WitW being interpreted as finding you the LA is more understandable, but I don't think Dry Lich is worth the +5, and it doesn't overpower the player to gain in for free at WitW 10, IMO.)

Exactly this. Rules as written can be interpreted however you like. However, when you consider that classes like Dragon Disciple and Dread Necro involve slow transformation (Breath weapons, increasing ability scores, or DR/Bludgeoning and Magic, fear aura, and increasing resistance to sleep and other mind-affecting spells), it's fairly obvious that the capstones are not intended as "Same thing everyone else gets, with the same price involved."

It's not explicitly stated that the templates you gain are without LA, but it's fairly obvious that this is what is intended. Otherwise, there'd be very few benefits for playing a Dread Necro 20 vs Necromantically-focused Sorcerer 16/Lich 4, or a Fighter10/DD10 vs Fighter17/Half-Dragon3.

[Inevitability]

[citation needed]

The 10 levels you spent in WitW are your LA, based off of past rulings with respect to things like Dragon Disciple.


Dragon Disciple has no such rule. That is a popular houserule, but a houserule nonetheless.

I'm pretty sure that quote isn't mine. :smalltongue:

[Andezzar]

Woops, how did that happen? Corrected.

[Xuldarinar]

I am just going to place this link (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031212a) right here.

[Andezzar]

It's not explicitly stated that the templates you gain are without LA, but it's fairly obvious that this is what is intended. Otherwise, there'd be very few benefits for playing a Dread Necro 20 vs Necromantically-focused Sorcerer 16/Lich 4, or a Fighter10/DD10 vs Fighter17/Half-Dragon3.The benefit of of a dread necromancer 20 is that you actually have rules how to become a lich. The template has very little beyond requiring CL 11, Craft Wondrous Items and committing unspeakably evil acts.
The benefit of the Dragon Disciple is that you can use such a character in a campaign that starts at ECL 1. But dragon disciple isn't a very good class even without the LA.


I am just going to place this link (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031212a) right here.So? This class just gives you the +4 LA over the course of several levels instead of in one go.

[Draconium]

But dragon disciple isn't a very good class even without the LA.

Well, I think we can all agree on that. :smalltongue:


So? This class just gives you the +4 LA over the course of several levels instead of in one go.

I think the point of it is that you don't have to take all four levels at one, so you can take a few of the levels and still get 9th-level spells. (Although your transformation into a Lich won't be finished yet.)

[Andezzar]

I think the point of it is that you don't have to take all four levels at one, so you can take a few of the levels and still get 9th-level spells. (Although your transformation into a Lich won't be finished yet.)But the caster who isn't even undead (undeath comes with the fourth level) does not deserve to be called Lich.

[Xuldarinar]

So? This class just gives you the +4 LA over the course of several levels instead of in one go.

Thats part of the point. Consider this;

You are adventuring with a party. You wouldn't want to undertake a process that takes time, diverts you from your adventures, and abruptly become significantly more powerful than your party, would you? This, can argued to be anyways, one of the better routes. If one permits buy off to apply to the progression, then buy off could be taken bit by bit. Take a lich level, work to buy off the LA, take another level of lich..


That and yes, one could just take a few levels and still get the 9th level spells. There are +0 LA forms of undeath it could be used with if need be.

[Andezzar]

You are adventuring with a party. You wouldn't want to undertake a process that takes time, diverts you from your adventures, and abruptly become significantly more powerful than your party, would you? This, can argued to be anyways, one of the better routes. If one permits buy off to apply to the progression, then buy off could be taken bit by bit. Take a lich level, work to buy off the LA, take another level of lich..That is not how LA buy off works. LA +1 has to be bought off when you are about to take yout 3rd class level (i.e. at ECL 4). You cannot take the first level of the lich class before having a Caster Level of 11. I'm sure you cannot achieve that by class level 3 without shenanigans.



That and yes, one could just take a few levels and still get the 9th level spells. There are +0 LA forms of undeath it could be used with if need be.And that would not be a lich. Just play a necropolitan if you do not want all the advantages and drawbacks of lichdom.

[OldTrees1]

That is not how LA buy off works. LA +1 has to be bought off when you are about to take yout 3rd class level (i.e. at ECL 4). You cannot take the first level of the lich class before having a Caster Level of 11. I'm sure you cannot achieve that by class level 3 without shenanigans

By this ruling of yours:

Gain 3 LA prior to buying off at 9th (having a caster level of 11 is much easier now)
Buy off 1 LA (down to 2 LA)
Gain the 4th LA (up to 3 LA)
Buy off 1 LA (down to 2 LA)
Buy off the 3rd LA (down to 1 LA) at 15th
Buy off the 4th LA (down to 0 LA) at 18th

[Andezzar]

I doubt LA-Buy off is intended to work with LA acquired after the first class level.

I'm not saying you should be prohibited from buying off the LA later, just that the rules don't actually give permission to do so.

[Florian]

So, in essence, we're back at starting with a more or less solid LA+2 race, buying off the LA before caster level 11 (Ur-Priest amongst the mix) and simply accept the unavoidable 4 levels of lich class, I guess?

[OldTrees1]

I doubt LA-Buy off is intended to work with LA acquired after the first class level.

I'm not saying you should be prohibited from buying off the LA later, just that the rules don't actually give permission to do so.

RAW: The rules don't specify when the LA needs to be gained. Hence the rules do give permission to buy off LA gained before and/or after the first class level.

RAI: The authors would probably use a 3/6/9/12/... levels clock after gaining the LA before allowing buyoff. So a lich would finish buying off their LA 12+9+6+3=30 class levels after gaining lichdom

Personally: I switch between using a 3 clock and a 3N clock where N starts at 1 and increases by 1 per buyoff

[Florian]

Its been a long time since I last read those rules.
But if I remember it correctly, the whole 3-step rule was based on LA-races losing their initial edge compared to what class levels offer and the rule was setup this way to counteract this.

Frankly, I'm a bit torn about this, especially if templates, not races are concerned, more so if they have HD-scaling abilities.

The level range we're talking about for entry into lich, even something like a half-celestial has already bought off 3 points of 4 LA and an early-entry vampire had the chance to buy off 1.