V vs IFCC.

[ghoul-n]

It might be kinda inappropriate time to speculate about this right now (Roy vs Durkula showdown and all), but still.

What if one day V decided that no fiend orders him/her around? What would be the chances if s/he actually took on them?

Let's assume that IFCC, as species, are more or less common types of powerful creatures found in their respective corner of Hells.

That leaves us with, say:



Cedric, balor:

Size/Type: Large Outsider (Chaotic, Extraplanar, Evil)
Hit Dice: 20d8+200 (290 hp)
Initiative: +11
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), fly 90 ft. (good)
Armor Class: 35 (-1 size, +7 Dex, +19 natural), touch 16, flat-footed 28
Base Attack/Grapple: +20/+36
Attack: +1 vorpal longsword +33 melee (2d6+13/19-20)
Full Attack: +1 vorpal longsword +31/+26/+21/+16 melee (2d6+13/19-20) and +1 flaming whip +30/+25 melee (1d4+6 plus 1d6 fire plus entangle); or 2 slams +31 melee (1d10+12)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft. (20 ft. with +1 flaming whip)
Special Attacks: Death throes, entangle, spell-like abilities, summon demon, vorpal sword
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 15/cold iron and good, darkvision 60 ft., flaming body, immunity to electricity, fire, and poison, resistance to acid 10 and cold 10, spell resistance 28, telepathy 100 ft., true seeing
Saves: Fort +22, Ref +19, Will +19
Abilities: Str 35, Dex 25, Con 31, Int 24, Wis 24, Cha 26
Skills: Bluff +31, Concentration +33, Diplomacy +35, Disguise +8 (+10 acting), Hide +26, Intimidate +33, Knowledge (any two) +30, Listen +38, Move Silently +30, Search +30, Sense Motive +30, Spellcraft +30 (+32 scrolls), Spot +38, Survival +7 (+9 following tracks), Use Magic Device +31 (+33 scrolls)
Feats: Cleave, Improved Initiative, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (telekinesis), Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (longsword)
Environment: A chaotic evil-aligned plane
Organization: Solitary or troupe (1 balor, 1 marilith, and 2-5 hezrous)
Challenge Rating: 20
Treasure: Standard coins; double goods; standard items, plus +1 large vorpal longsword and +1 large flaming whip
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: 21-30 HD (Large); 31-60 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: —


Lee, erinyes:

Size/Type: Medium Outsider (Evil, Extraplanar, Lawful)
Hit Dice: 9d8+45 (85 hp)
Initiative: +5
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), fly 50 ft. (good)
Armor Class: 23 (+5 Dex, +8 natural), touch 15, flat-footed 18
Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+14
Attack: Longsword +14 melee (1d8+5/19-20) or +1 flaming composite longbow (+5 Str bonus) +15 ranged (1d8+6/×3 plus 1d6 fire) or rope +14 ranged (entangle)
Full Attack: Longsword +14/+9 melee (1d8+5/19-20) or +1 flaming composite longbow (+5 Str bonus) +15/+10 ranged (1d8+6/×3 plus 1d6 fire) or rope +14 ranged (entangle)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Entangle, spell-like abilities, summon devil
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 5/good, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to fire and poison, resistance to acid 10 and cold 10, see in darkness, spell resistance 20, telepathy 100 ft., true seeing
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +11, Will +10
Abilities: Str 21, Dex 21, Con 21, Int 14, Wis 18, Cha 20
Skills: Concentration +17, Diplomacy +7, Escape Artist +17, Hide +17, Knowledge (any two) +14, Listen +16, Move Silently +17, Search +14, Sense Motive +16, Spot +16, Survival +4 (+6 following tracks), Use Rope +5 (+7 with bindings)
Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Shot on the Run
Environment: A lawful evil-aligned plane
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 8
Treasure: Standard, plus rope and +1 flaming composite longbow (+5 Str bonus)
Alignment: Always lawful evil
Advancement: 10-18 HD (Medium)
Level Adjustment: +7


Nero, destradoloth:

Size/Type: Large Outsider (Evil, Extraplanar, Yugoloth)
Hit Dice: 20d8+160 (250 hp)
Initiative: +12
Speed: 40 ft., fly 60 ft. (average)
Armor Class: 44 (-1 size, +4 armor, +8 dex, +23 natural), touch 17, flat-footed 36
Base Attack/Grapple: +20/+37
Attack: +2 Keen Unholy Vilebone Scythe +35 melee (2d6+29 plus 1d6 unholy plus 1 vile, 19-20/x4) or claw +33 melee (2d8+13, 20x2)
Full Attack: +2 Keen Unholy Vilebone Scythe +35 melee (2d6+29 plus 1d6 unholy plus 1 vile, 19-20/x4) and 2 claws melee +33 (2d8+13, 20x2)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Spell-like abilities, summon yugoloth
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 15/good and adamantine, darkvision 60 ft., flight, gray aura, immunity to acid and poison, resistance cold/elec/fire 10, regeneration 5, spell resistance 32, telepathy 100 ft.
Saves: Fort +20, Ref +20, Will +20
Abilities: Str 37, Dex 27, Con 27, Int 26, Wis 26, Cha 26
Skills: Appraise +31, Bluff +31, Concentration +31, Diplomacy +31, Disguise +31, Hide +27, Intimidate +35, Any Two Knowledges +31, Listen +31, Move Silently +31, Search +31, Sense Motive +31, Spellcraft +31, Spot +31, Use Magic Device +31
Feats: Power Attack, Hover, Cleave, Great Cleave, Ability Focus (Gray Aura), Improved Initiative, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (Bestow Curse)
Environment: Gray Wastes of Hades
Organization: Solitary, Pair, Team (2-4), or Troupe (1-2 Destradoloths, 2-5 Nyacaloths, and 2-5 Canoloths)
Challenge Rating: 20
Treasure: Double
Alignment: Always Neutral Evil
Advancement: 19-36 (Large), 37-54 (Huge)
Level Adjustment: —

vs

:vaarsuvius:, level 16 PC Evoker with medium-sized plot armor.

Let's presume that V has any amount of time to prepare, any amount of buffs (including potions) to cast on him/herself and Blackwing beforehand, can carry any amount of potions and/or scrolls/wands that his/her strength/bags/money allowing him/her, and manages to catch the fiends off guard (i.e., they never suspect that s/he might turn on them, have no useable items/consumables ready, and, say, have to waste a round to get their weapons from a conveniently placed armoire).

Also, the fight goes on in Hell (say, in that place where they all watched TV), movement is allowed in all 3 dimensions (i.e., flying or movement underground by whatever means), fiend truly dies only if it dies right there, IFCC members cannot magically summon each other, but can contact with each other by any other means as well as try to summon some reinforcements of their specific alignment.

Two possible scenarios: V takes on three of them (all unaware) at once or V picks them one by one. Let's also say that if s/he ever wins against one fiend, two others become alert.

V cannot rest to replenish spells, s/he must do it (or retreat) in one go.

Obviously, those CRs on some of the creatures state 20, but overcoming insurmountable is the whole point of both being a wizard and V.

[King of Nowhere]

it would be fairly disappointing if the ifcc were no more than the most powerful type of fiend, unmodified. and they ca reclaim v's soul for a few minutes if they want.

[Mx56]

I'd have thought Lee would be something more powerful than that. A Pit Fiend at the very least.

Though think they're more likely to be something on the order of a low level archfiend, unique and extremely powerful, but less so than, say a full fledged deity. If I was creating something like them as a GM, I'd probably start with a half-fiendish high level sorcerer and then then add/swap out some special abilities to make them more unique and powerful. But I'm a lazy sod.

[Rift_Wolf]

V: I challenge you to three on one combat!
Lee:.... K. *yoink*
Cedrik: (on phone) Hey Tiamat, wanna know where that Wizard is gonna be for the next forty minutes?
Nero: Summon Fiendish Popcorn!

[Macros]

Yeah, I don't like V's chances here. Honestly, the IFCC do not strike me as the kind of villains you can foil via physical combat.

[Bulldog Psion]

Still, plane shifting a strike team to take them out is an interesting idea, and I don't think I've ever seen anything like it proposed before. Kudos for the originality.

It also raises the question if the fiends can extract V's soul to Baator when V's already in Baator.

[Darth Paul]

Honestly, the IFCC do not strike me as the kind of villains you can foil via physical combat.

Agreed. V will have to defeat the IFCC the Vulcan Elven way- with logic, ingenuity, and by using their own rules against them. Somehow.

Even there, one fears V may be (as the British say) "on a hiding to nothing".

[brian 333]

Sometimes you have to just pay the price. V may indeed be pulled away at a critical point or two in the upcoming episodes, but it's up to Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0945.html) as tactician to figure out how to work around that problem. I'm wondering how Haley's wand exercises (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0970.html) are coming along?

[Vinyadan]

I'm wondering how Haley's wand exercises (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0970.html) are coming along?

You know, I had not thought that she could be a backup in case of severe wizard deficiency.

[ghoul-n]

and they ca reclaim v's soul for a few minutes if they want.


V will have to defeat the IFCC the Vulcan Elven way- with logic, ingenuity, and by using their own rules against them. Somehow.

That's got me thinking, actually, if V could bluff his way through the fiends via combat.

I.e. if s/he catches one of them off-guard and blasts him hard enough, that fiend might be forced to invoke his part of the debt to get some breathing room. V's body will be invincible during that time, so s/he can just chill for a bit and run away afterwards.

(of course dealing with the dimensional anchors and whatnot should be thought of beforehand)

[Heksefatter]

I definitely can't see Lee being so much less powerful than the other archfiends. If Lee is CR 8 and the other are 20, Lee would be useless. They can't cooperate as equals. A relative weakling would have little or nothing to contribute. On top of that, a CR 8 ranking devil couldn't pull any strings with their own leaders, hence defeating the entire point of the IFCC.

[Reathin]

The three of them are archfiends. If I recall correctly, every archfiend we have on record has been Epic challenge rating. V's good, but she's not THAT good, and three against one when the three of them have apparently refined their teamwork to an admirable extent? Banjo'd have a better chance of defeating Xykon, because the lich might at least be mind-boggled enough to hold off a round trying to process being attacked by a hand puppet.

In most stories where people manage to get out of deals with devils (and daemons and demons, in this case), there's usually two ways it goes. One, they get forgiveness from a higher power. I don't see the gods getting in on this; a literal Deus Ex Machina to let V off the hook would be narratively unsatisfying and, given V's desire for proper repentance, unlikely to be wanted so easily. The second and much more likely case is that V figures out either a loophole in the details or uses their own rules against them.

Something that stood out when Sabine was talking to V during the the pyramid was that Nero was the one that keeps the two of them working together. Normally, fiends are at each other's throats, and apparently the IFCC isn't immune if that's Nero's job. If V can get Nero out of the picture briefly (not likely through combat), Lee and Cedric might fall apart and defeat themselves.

[factotum]

In most stories where people manage to get out of deals with devils (and daemons and demons, in this case), there's usually two ways it goes.

Of course, there's potentially a third option, namely, that V never *does* escape his literal deal with the devil and thus gets nabbed two more times at the most awkward moments.

[Rift_Wolf]

Of course, there's potentially a third option, namely, that V never *does* escape his literal deal with the devil and thus gets nabbed two more times at the most awkward moments.

Which raises another question; how many more plot critical moments will the story have? I've been considering this in the context of 'how many more opportunities are we going to see MitD before his big reveal?', as I'm not sure the absolute final for-reals showdown will be at Kraagor's Gate. If Kraagor's Gate is plot critical moment 2, where will the third be?

Unless... V is alerted to the vampire and gets yoinked, allowing Gontor to steal the Portkey and complete Hel's backup plan!

[denthor]

In one of the books Rich refers to the IFCC as a major Character. I have not seen them so I expect to see them a lot over the next two books. Here's hoping I'm right and I do not see V fighting with them

[Zenzis]

In most stories where people manage to get out of deals with devils (and daemons and demons, in this case), there's usually two ways it goes. One, they get forgiveness from a higher power. I don't see the gods getting in on this; a literal Deus Ex Machina to let V off the hook would be narratively unsatisfying and, given V's desire for proper repentance, unlikely to be wanted so easily. The second and much more likely case is that V figures out either a loophole in the details or uses their own rules against them.


Liliana Vess is an example of a powerful magic user going and trying to kill the demons they made a pact with to get out of it.

I think the OP is less about "would this ever happen" and more about "if for some reason this did happen would V stand a chance" anyways, but maybe I am misinterpretting it.

[rodneyAnonymous]

I think the OP is [...] about "if for some reason this did happen would V stand a chance"...

I think the answer is "no, the elf wouldn't stand a chance". I'd expect the IFCC to press some kind of "I win" button that makes their combat stats irrelevant, like calling in one of the debts to make Vaarsuvius comatose for a few minutes.

[factotum]

I'd expect the IFCC to press some kind of "I win" button that makes their combat stats irrelevant

Even if they didn't do that, three archfiends would be way beyond a single mid-level wizard. They'd probably be way beyond even the entire Order or Team Evil.

[ti'esar]

I don't know if they'd be beyond Xykon - they're not gods or anything. Most statted archfiends tend to have CRs in the 20s; the highest ones I've seen have generally topped out around 33 or so, and the IFCC aren't that (since we know that they're trying to impress the "lower-downs").

That's kind of a meaningless quibble, though, since I agree that they're not the kind of opponent to be beaten in direct combat.

[EmperorSarda]

This thread is forgetting that Plane Shift is a conjuration spell, which V cannot cast. So he cannot get to Hell by himself.

And I guess good luck finding a caster willing to send Hir there. Or to go with so V can get back.

I do have a question; can V's soul cast spells when it is separated from its body, such as when the IFCC next abduct V?

[zimmerwald1915]

This thread is forgetting that Plane Shift is a conjuration spell, which V cannot cast. So he cannot get to Hell by himself.

And I guess good luck finding a caster willing to send Hir there. Or to go with so V can get back.

I do have a question; can V's soul cast spells when it is separated from its body, such as when the IFCC next abduct V?
Eugene's soul can cast spells. On the other hand, casting something seems like one of the first things V would have tried the first time she was taken, and she didn't.

[ti'esar]

I don't think they're operating under the same rules.

[factotum]

Eugene's soul can cast spells. On the other hand, casting something seems like one of the first things V would have tried the first time she was taken, and she didn't.

One assumes that without a body V wouldn't be able to use any of the somatic components of a spell anyway, so he'd be severely limited in what he could cast--similar to how it was when he was turned into a lizard.

[EmperorSarda]

Which means Power Word Stun is probably the only effective spell V can cast when held by the demons.

[thereaper]

Power Word Stun won't do anything to the fiends; they almost certainly have far too many hit points.

[brian 333]

This thread is forgetting that Plane Shift is a conjuration spell, which V cannot cast. So he cannot get to Hell by himself.

And I guess good luck finding a caster willing to send Hir there. Or to go with so V can get back.

I do have a question; can V's soul cast spells when it is separated from its body, such as when the IFCC next abduct V?

The last time they had V fairly well secured. Unless s/he can cast by wiggling hir ears, (which seemed to be the only functional extremities s/he had,) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0903.html) Varsuvius doesn't seem to be able to do much of anything unless the Archfiends allow it.

[Morquard]

Something that stood out when Sabine was talking to V during the the pyramid was that Nero was the one that keeps the two of them working together. Normally, fiends are at each other's throats, and apparently the IFCC isn't immune if that's Nero's job. If V can get Nero out of the picture briefly (not likely through combat), Lee and Cedric might fall apart and defeat themselves.
I don't think I ever noticed that Nero is the glue between them. And I gotta admit I still don't, I went back but don't see it.
I mean, it makes sense. He's the Neutral one, after all.

But can you give an example?

[ghoul-n]

I don't think I ever noticed that Nero is the glue between them. And I gotta admit I still don't, I went back but don't see it.
I mean, it makes sense. He's the Neutral one, after all.

But can you give an example?

Sabine talked about it right here: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0903.html

Maybe she's lied for whatever reasons, of course.

[Keltest]

I don't think I ever noticed that Nero is the glue between them. And I gotta admit I still don't, I went back but don't see it.
I mean, it makes sense. He's the Neutral one, after all.

But can you give an example?

I assume that it would be more apparent were we ever exposed to one of their planning sessions. Gloating is a cross alignment feature, and that's most of what they've done on screen.

[Roland Itiative]

Sabine talked about it right here: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0903.html

Maybe she's lied for whatever reasons, of course.

I never paid enough attention to Sabine's dialogue there... "Pawns on every team", huh. I wonder if the demonic cockroaches are more than just comic relief after all. And Jirix might be on the know, as he unceremoniously kills one of them.

[lenon3579]

No, he would never stand a chance.

The power of the three reunited is sufficient to bind the souls of three epic-level spellcasters to V. And to take the soul out of V in the terms of the contract. If they are capable of doing that in the terms of the contract, they are capable of doing that for self-defense.

And they ARE Arch-Devils. That is stated more than one time. But they are "starting out", so they are not as powerful as Bel's avatar (CR 55). But also they are way more powerful than a mere balor/pit fiend/arcanaloth. Waaaay more powerful than them. Maybe some fiends with class levels?? Anyway I would put them in the 25-30 range.

Xykon would not stand a chance against the three of them reunited.

EDIT: And they DO receive souls of dead people. And is stated by Rich himself that Souls are the Power-Engine of Godhood in OOTSverse. So they are god-ish in some way.

[xroads]

EDIT: And they DO receive souls of dead people. And is stated by Rich himself that Souls are the Power-Engine of Godhood in OOTSverse. So they are god-ish in some way.

My impression was that the souls didn't belong to them. I think it's more like they receive & process souls for the gods of their respective hell. Perhaps in a way similar to the celestial that interviewed Roy when he died.

Having said that, I don't think V would have the raw power to fight the IFCC.

But he does have a 18 intelligence (I think). And I suspect, guided by the lessons he is starting to learn about the limits of arcane power, V will rely on his intelligence more then anything else to defeat the IFCC.

:vaarsuvius:

[lenon3579]

But, in fact, apart for a "vengeance resentment" against the IFCC for the trick they played (which I think would be very against his character development) or the 15 minutes more or less that they may take him away from his body V doesn't have no reason to go against them.

In fact, in the light of the most recent developments, it may be pretty the contrary. Both V and the IFCC would want to stop Hel in her world-destroying plan. And both would want to stop Redcloack and The Dark One's plan, also.

Yeah, I think that The Giant would rather put them to work together in some twisted plot twist in the near future.

[factotum]

But he does have a 18 intelligence (I think). And I suspect, guided by the lessons he is starting to learn about the limits of arcane power, V will rely on his intelligence more then anything else to defeat the IFCC.


But the IFCC probably have a higher INT than that. Even a CR 20 Balor has a listed intelligence of 24, after all!

[lenon3579]

But the IFCC probably have a higher INT than that. Even a CR 20 Balor has a listed intelligence of 24, after all!

Yes... we are talking about outsmarting the very incarnation of vileness, deception and first-edition thiefness here.

[xroads]

But the IFCC probably have a higher INT than that. Even a CR 20 Balor has a listed intelligence of 24, after all!

True. But even so, her 18 intelligence is probably one of her best tools. And while hers may not be higher then one or more of the trio, if she wants to she might still be able to use it to beat them.

Of course that's assuming she even tries. I suspect the pursuit of redemption will take a higher precedence then thoughts of vengeance in her mind. At least this seems to be the case so far.

[brian 333]

Also: V doesn't seem to be the type to renege on a deal.

[zimmerwald1915]

True. But even so, her 18 intelligence is probably one of her best tools. And while hers may not be higher then one or more of the trio, if she wants to she might still be able to use it to beat them.
If you're going to quote numbers, get them right. V's natural intelligence is 20 these days, 24 with a magic item.


Of course that's assuming she even tries. I suspect the pursuit of redemption will take a higher precedence then thoughts of vengeance in her mind. At least this seems to be the case so far.
Ah, but remember Roy's advice (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0945.html); "sometimes you have to stop the bleeding before you can start to heal."

[Keltest]

If you're going to quote numbers, get them right. V's natural intelligence is 20 these days, 24 with a magic item.


Ah, but remember Roy's advice (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0945.html); "sometimes you have to stop the bleeding before you can start to heal."

Im not certain that suicide by denizens of the lower planes is a particularly effective way to stop the bleeding. Part of V's character growth means seeking solutions beyond "kill it with fire".

[zimmerwald1915]

Im not certain that suicide by denizens of the lower planes is a particularly effective way to stop the bleeding. Part of V's character growth means seeking solutions beyond "kill it with fire".
Hmm? By "stopping the bleeding" I meant foiling the Directors' plans, somehow.

[Keltest]

Hmm? By "stopping the bleeding" I meant foiling the Directors' plans, somehow.

So did I. I thought the assumption we were operating on here was that V would only engage them in combat to try and get out of the deal.

[Reboot]

Sometimes you have to just pay the price. V may indeed be pulled away at a critical point or two in the upcoming episodes, but it's up to Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0945.html) as tactician to figure out how to work around that problem. I'm wondering how Haley's wand exercises (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0970.html) are coming along?
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0973.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0975.html