So I was making an Antipaladin...

[thecrimsondawn]

and by Vortain's Flail, how the hell did I overlook them so quickly?!

At first glance, they are a debuff class. A paladin in reverse. Everything that was once sacred, good, and law, is now profane, evil, and chaos.
As I was building him, I started to notice a horrifying trend. As originally a 3.5 player, mind effecting effects such as fear I naturally overlooked due to how simply minor of a task it was to remove such things, but no more, no - not after seeing some of the Antipaladins natural combos.

The Aura of Cowardice effectively makes any save someone has to make vs fear 4 higher. Fear effects that can come from Intimidation, Cruelties, spells, and Black Seraph path of war related moves.
With a starting 20 in CHA, that is a good 16 or higher DC save at lv1, for your cruelty (dc20 if you count your aura), and once you hit them with it, they suffer a -2 from it.
Then you have Sickened, stacking with shaken, netting a -4 to saves, attacks,and other things. Both very easy to hit with.
By level 6 you get access to Diseased netting a nice choice of diseases that you can inflict (both on yourself or others while you are immune to the effects) If you hit with this after they are hit with the first two, those minor save DCs become a whole lot harder to make, and even harder at lv 8 when you hit them for 2 more just by being near them with your aura.

9th level is a huge one too, but by 9th level, everyone is starting to come into their own, so that is to be expected. Still for the sake of debuffing, I took a look and saw 3 options.
Exhausted is a huge debuff that I see most guides overlook. Its really really hard to get rid of when you suddenly get hit by it in a fight, and it sucks big time to be on the receiving end of it. However, to get it you need to grab Fatigued early on when your other two options are simply better IMO, even more so since they get better as you level up.
The second option is Cursed. More easy to remove then exhausted, but can adapt to a situation. For sake of shutting people down, lets assume we are targeting saves again. So that is -2 twice(from Shaken and Sickened) -2 from your aura, -4 from the curse, and whatever disease you decided to hit them with.
The last option is Poisoned. As long as you stay in range after debuffing, its almost a sure fire kill as their CON starts to rapidly deplete from both the poison and the disease.

Lastly at lv 12, you can Paralyze them and get a free crit every other round (provided they survive the first), or you can opt to stun them for 3 rounds and enjoy watching them suffer and bleed out in true chaotic evil fashion.


All of this comes standard with a class, its almost scary. Of course, it has little place in AOE combat, and their AC can only go so high unless you start looking at level dips, but 1 on 1, I cant see many bosses standing a chance. Also, by its wording, Aura of Cowardice works on anything with an immunity to fear, so that means they are able to put the fear of death into even Constructs and plants. I am going to have one hell of a fun time playing this class!

The big kicker I see tho is the Drow favored class bonus.
The antipaladin adds +1/4 to the number of cruelties he can inflict.
By this wording it seems to be saying that you can inflict one additional cruelty with your attack and not just gain 1/4th of a new cruelty. Even if a DM would say otherwise, since many class features and feats use the Paladins feats and class features to qualify for the Antipaladins, you can still net yourself a way to inflict multiple debuffs on a single target. All you really need is the first two tho. Anything past that is just overkill and murdering fun :3

[Sayt]

The Anti-paladin is a decent class, and Bastard's Sting is a great item for them.

But there are two things to note: Intimidate and Aura of Cowardice do not interact. AoC inflicts a penalty on the enemies saving throw, but Intimidation requires the Antipaladin to make a check, not the target.

The other thing is that the Code of Conduct makes it really hard to be constructive in a party.

[Florian]

Chosing Caliatria and her CoC will be hard, but at least do-able in a regular party.

[thecrimsondawn]

Good to know about the intimidate check. I am also going to be using the path of war's black seraph discipline so I will be stacking the crap out of intimidate anyway. My first level feat I opted for adding my STR as well as my CHA to my intimidate score netting me a solid 16 in it at lv3. Skill ranks aside, I will be grabbing other feats that allow me to make free intimidate checks all the dam time, so even without that -4, its still a very very high success rate.

As far as the CoC goes, we are planing an evil game with interesting comical elements to it. My antipaladin is more or less a 9-5 suit working for various greedy elf nobles that are more or less the spitting image of "that **** boss at work". I end up joining something akin to the Mafia where the leader is a divine ranked being who teaches me how to use the negative emotions I have been building up in constructive ways that are also of benefit to them. Effectively, just like superman and spiderman, I am a worker by day, but evil super villein by night (or whenever the "boss" calls for me). Knowing that I can kill, murder, torture, and destroy the people that ruined me from within, all the while having a well paying second "job" that covers my tracks, I see this as the ultimate win for me.
My antipaladin is very dumb however, and he knows this as well. Because of this he works with (but not under) an evil genius master mind (another player) who sets up somewhat simple traps for heroes to fight through, only to confront them, spill the beans on a master plot, and then leave the situation in the "capable" hands of his henchmen. We still have another party member who is undecided too.
I plan for my character to progress deeper and deeper into the darkest aspects of chaotic evil as I level up. While in a way I am following a "law" right now, I am actively working with a group to overthrow a different law for my own personal reasons. As I level, my ego is most likely going to start to inflate and get me into a whole heap of trouble, but hey, that is also part of the fun of playing CE.

[stanprollyright]

I would play an antipaladin in a heartbeat if anyone ever lets me be evil.

[grarrrg]

The big kicker I see tho is the Drow favored class bonus.
The antipaladin adds +1/4 to the number of cruelties he can inflict.
By this wording it seems to be saying that you can inflict one additional cruelty with your attack and not just gain 1/4th of a new cruelty. Even if a DM would say otherwise, since many class features and feats use the Paladins feats and class features to qualify for the Antipaladins, you can still net yourself a way to inflict multiple debuffs on a single target. All you really need is the first two tho. Anything past that is just overkill and murdering fun :3

Do keep in mind that even if you can apply multiple Cruelties at once, they still ALL depend on _1_ Saving Throw. And, of course, all of the "Save debuff stacking" you plan to do won't help you land the first one.
So you are likely looking at multiple rounds of application here.

[thecrimsondawn]

Do keep in mind that even if you can apply multiple Cruelties at once, they still ALL depend on _1_ Saving Throw. And, of course, all of the "Save debuff stacking" you plan to do won't help you land the first one.
So you are likely looking at multiple rounds of application here.

That is not quite true as some of them require fort saves and some will saves. Also the fear related ones would get a penalty due to the low level aura you get and at level 8+ the other rolls will get a different penalty. It would be more problematic to make them all on one roll and some just not probable.

[Florian]

@thecrimsondawn:

Normally, I'm a big fan of everything that puts inimidate to good use.
With the Antipaladin, though, I'm not really sure if the feat investment is really worth it. Personally, If in for a long campaign, I'd tend to VMC Sorcerer (Abyssal), A high-crit conductive weapon, channel smite, dazing assault, strike back and such, that'll eat up your availlable feats pretty quick, but your antipaladin will dish out some serious hurt.

[grarrrg]

That is not quite true as some of them require fort saves and some will saves....It would be more problematic to make them all on one roll and some just not probable.

Reread the Cruelty section:
"The target receives a Fortitude save to avoid this cruelty. If the save is successful, the target takes the damage as normal, but not the effects of the cruelty."

All Cruelties run on Fort Save. Nothing is mentioned of Will/Reflex saves.

It is up to interpretation exactly how the Drow bonus is supposed to work.
The Cruelty ability as worded seems like it's 1 Save all or nothing. BUT it was written before "multiple Cruelties" was a possibility.

The "1 Save all or nothing" can run into problems though: If you combine Shaken (fear effect) and something else (not a fear effect) does the target still get -4 from Cowardice? Can they fail the save vs. Shaken but succeed against the rest?

Then again, at higher levels rolling multiple Saves vs. 1 attack has great annoyance potential, and takes a bit longer than just 1 save.

[Florian]

I'd say the drow fcb changes how it works as it allows for an additional cruely every 4 picks. Functionally, I'd handle it with one save and see what sticks or what not.

[thecrimsondawn]

Reread the Cruelty section:
"The target receives a Fortitude save to avoid this cruelty. If the save is successful, the target takes the damage as normal, but not the effects of the cruelty."

All Cruelties run on Fort Save. Nothing is mentioned of Will/Reflex saves.

It is up to interpretation exactly how the Drow bonus is supposed to work.
The Cruelty ability as worded seems like it's 1 Save all or nothing. BUT it was written before "multiple Cruelties" was a possibility.

The "1 Save all or nothing" can run into problems though: If you combine Shaken (fear effect) and something else (not a fear effect) does the target still get -4 from Cowardice? Can they fail the save vs. Shaken but succeed against the rest?

Then again, at higher levels rolling multiple Saves vs. 1 attack has great annoyance potential, and takes a bit longer than just 1 save.

You....have a strong point there. Im not sure how i overlooked that. You are right, by that wording and placement, all of the will based saves are fort saves. This makes CON damage all the more fun now :3
and ya.... I considered that priority question myself. The conclusion I came to was that since its an effect laced onto an attack, the attack has first priority, and then all the effects go off at once, so following effects are not effected by the debuffs. I will just need to make a cheat sheet what what the DC for everything is


Normally, I'm a big fan of everything that puts intimidate to good use.
With the Antipaladin, though, I'm not really sure if the feat investment is really worth it. Personally, If in for a long campaign, I'd tend to VMC Sorcerer (Abyssal), A high-crit conductive weapon, channel smite, dazing assault, strike back and such, that'll eat up your available feats pretty quick, but your antipaladin will dish out some serious hurt.
Well I have a lot of open feat slots right now. My first level is taken up for adding STR and CHA mods for intimidate, and then lvs 3-? is taken up for Martial Training. I am not sure yet if I want all 6, or if I am just going to nab a few, mostly for a couple stances and what not. If I go all 6, I get a boost that lets me add my intimidate check to my next damage roll as a swift action. Being that that would be around lv12, its easy to say that that number can easily be in the 60s or higher. (thinks about it for a moment)
20 start(+5),STR to intim (+5) two +6 items (one for cha, one for str) (+6), 12 skill ranks (+12), in class skill bonus (+3), and lets assume a +4 item (+4) and skill focus (+6).
That is about 41 base before any rolls. assuming you can take 10 (another feat I saw) that is 51. Not too shabby. This is not including items that provide short term temp bonuses either since the situation of having those up in combat at lv 12 is kinda rare.

[Florian]

A bit of useless overkill, don't you think? The base calculation doesn't change: DC is 10+HD+Wis.

So if you pick Power Attack > Cornugon Smash, you may attempt Initimidate per Single Attack.

Frankly, that should be more than enough.

(It is a waste to work beyond auto-hitting to the nth degree just because it is possible)

Edit: Planning on intimidating a high level monster, let's say a solar (DC 10 + 22 + 8) is pretty easy, actually. At that point, the debuff won't cut it anymore, though.

[thecrimsondawn]

A bit of useless overkill, don't you think? The base calculation doesn't change: DC is 10+HD+Wis.

So if you pick Power Attack > Cornugon Smash, you may attempt Initimidate per Single Attack.

Frankly, that should be more than enough.

(It is a waste to work beyond auto-hitting to the nth degree just because it is possible)

Edit: Planning on intimidating a high level monster, let's say a solar (DC 10 + 22 + 8) is pretty easy, actually. At that point, the debuff won't cut it anymore, though.

This is not always true tho. The fact is, the antipaladin is sort of the Blackguard meets Hexknight from 3.5. The debuff from Intimidate alone is ok early levels, but when its stacked with other things, or unchained, it gets really really nasty. Also again, keep in mind I am using Path of War as well. Intimidate can be subbed for damage, I think vs an attack roll, or my saves on one of the counters. Some require a check before a move works well, and there is even some nice AOE Intimidates, and free intimidate whenever you do any type of damage too in a stance. Path of war takes the skill (and the damage of your attacks) and adds a little pepper to them. Also part of this builds persona is intimidating as hell, yet dumb as bricks, unable to properly talk to people, yet looks quite attractive. I am setting him up for some serious mental disorders :3

This is also for the most part, not focusing on intimidate as much as items I need anyway. STR helps with damage and hit chance, and CHA is still as useful as it is to me as it is to a Pally. That total I came up with is also forgetting to add in the bonus points every 4 levels too, so its even higher :3

[stanprollyright]

So if you pick Power Attack > Cornugon Smash, you may attempt Initimidate per Single Attack.


This + Hurtful (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/hurtful-combat) for an extra attack. Grab a conductive (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/conductive) weapon as well so you can use Touch of Corruption on your regular attacks. Great damage and a double debuff all in one round. I personally don't like the feat tax on this, but you can also get Dazzling Display and Shatter Defenses to make your opponent flat-footed at the same time.

[tadkins]

I would play an antipaladin in a heartbeat if anyone ever lets me be evil.

It's a challenge to convince a DM to allow it. I don't think I've ever been successful, lol.

[Xuldarinar]

It's a challenge to convince a DM to allow it. I don't think I've ever been successful, lol.

You have to know how to sell it. Most parties, in spite of being murderhobos, are "Good" aligned.


Ways to sell and antipaladin in a good party (Some ideas, anyways)
Note: Mask of Virtue (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/damnation-feats/mask-of-virtue-damnation), with other damnation feats, is a huge help in these but isn't a requirement.

An antipaladin is barred from altruism, but not from good deeds. You are on a crusade to create doubt in commonly held perceptions of those associated with demon-kind (or another malevolent force). You do good deeds, but always towards your ultimate aim. You sell vile deities and demigods as being things they are not and create opportunities for evil to take root. Your deeds may be that of a saint, but always to a vile end.

An antipaladin is not barred from working with a good party if to the end of undermining them. You exist to bring about the gradual fall of your party as you help raise them to incredible heights of power, only to deliver them to your patron. You are in this for the long game as you garner their trust.

An antipaladin is an agent of evil and of chaos, but not all evil serves your ends. Whether you serve a demon lord and aim your party to be proxies for their war upon the other demon lord, or you have broadened your horizons to combat the forces of hell, you are a representative of the concept of evil against evil. If the campaign is mostly against devils, fantastic. If it aims to combat the qlippoth, groovy. If your adventure is to take down a demon lord, serve one who likely would want their head.

An antipaladin serves their own ends, evil as they are. Your interests happen to otherwise align with that of the party, and so you fight along side them. They want to topple an evil ruler, you want that chair they are sitting in. They want to slay a dragon to save a village, you can bet there is something in it for you. This is a broader version of the aforementioned route, but being broader it is a little less likely to sell, but it is less situational.



You are the (likely younger) sibling of a paladin in the party, or of some other relation/association. The paladin having an oath of loyalty, an oath having been sworn in regards to your safety and to try to redeem you, where as you try to make them fall. Their oath keeps them from doing the deed or allowing their compatriots to do the same, but they act to help keep you in line. You get through what you can, and have fun watching the paladin twitch. Its good vs evil, law vs chaos, played out as sibling rivalry and banter.

[thecrimsondawn]

You have to know how to sell it. Most parties, in spite of being murderhobos, are "Good" aligned.


Ways to sell and antipaladin in a good party (Some ideas, anyways)
Note: Mask of Virtue (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/damnation-feats/mask-of-virtue-damnation), with other damnation feats, is a huge help in these but isn't a requirement.

An antipaladin is barred from altruism, but not from good deeds. You are on a crusade to create doubt in commonly held perceptions of those associated with demon-kind (or another malevolent force). You do good deeds, but always towards your ultimate aim. You sell vile deities and demigods as being things they are not and create opportunities for evil to take root. Your deeds may be that of a saint, but always to a vile end.

An antipaladin is not barred from working with a good party if to the end of undermining them. You exist to bring about the gradual fall of your party as you help raise them to incredible heights of power, only to deliver them to your patron. You are in this for the long game as you garner their trust.

An antipaladin is an agent of evil and of chaos, but not all evil serves your ends. Whether you serve a demon lord and aim your party to be proxies for their war upon the other demon lord, or you have broadened your horizons to combat the forces of hell, you are a representative of the concept of evil against evil. If the campaign is mostly against devils, fantastic. If it aims to combat the qlippoth, groovy. If your adventure is to take down a demon lord, serve one who likely would want their head.

An antipaladin serves their own ends, evil as they are. Your interests happen to otherwise align with that of the party, and so you fight along side them. They want to topple an evil ruler, you want that chair they are sitting in. They want to slay a dragon to save a village, you can bet there is something in it for you. This is a broader version of the aforementioned route, but being broader it is a little less likely to sell, but it is less situational.



You are the (likely younger) sibling of a paladin in the party, or of some other relation/association. The paladin having an oath of loyalty, an oath having been sworn in regards to your safety and to try to redeem you, where as you try to make them fall. Their oath keeps them from doing the deed or allowing their compatriots to do the same, but they act to help keep you in line. You get through what you can, and have fun watching the paladin twitch. Its good vs evil, law vs chaos, played out as sibling rivalry and banter.


Just remember tho, when you make a CE character, you WILL die sooner rather then later. ambitions grow, and you attract more and more attention to yourself. You may very well be able to cause a scar upon the world you live in that can never be healed or forgotten, but just due to the nature of CE, you will end up with other gods sending their own agents after you to stop your terror.

[Vhaidara]

Just remember tho, when you make a CE character, you WILL die sooner rather then later. ambitions grow, and you attract more and more attention to yourself. You may very well be able to cause a scar upon the world you live in that can never be healed or forgotten, but just due to the nature of CE, you will end up with other gods sending their own agents after you to stop your terror.

That doesn't track at all. Gods generally have a reason they don't intervene, and traditionally the Evil gods are the ones who will violate that. And you're on their side. So if you're going with the "divine intervention" reason for a short life, LG is going to die about a century sooner.

And why does CE have to be ambitious? You're pigeonholing an entire alignment into a very narrow category. Ambition is no more fundamental to CE than LG.

My personal CE archetype is the hero maker: the world needs heroes, but heroes need villains. I'm here to remind the world why it needs heroes.

[Xuldarinar]

Just remember tho, when you make a CE character, you WILL die sooner rather then later. ambitions grow, and you attract more and more attention to yourself. You may very well be able to cause a scar upon the world you live in that can never be healed or forgotten, but just due to the nature of CE, you will end up with other gods sending their own agents after you to stop your terror.

That matters purely on the manner in which a Chaotic Evil individual carries themselves and the ambitions they possess, if any. Subtly is not a trait lost on chaos and evil, and one's effects may not always be understood or perceived immediately. As stated, Evil is in it for the long game, the results, not the methods used to achieve such ends. If an antipaladin is (believed to be) a saint in their actions, but the ultimate result of their plans and actions is 100 years after their death a great calamity befalls the world, they were successful.




Oh, and while I am thinking of it, a list of proper forces/entities to serve for an antipaladin;

A demon lord (standard, nascent, dead, balor, or otherwise)
A horseman of the apocalypse
An oni daimyo
A qlippoth lord
A thanatotic titan
Daemons as a whole
Demon-kind as a whole
Demodands as a whole
Qlippoth as a whole
The dark tapestry, or a specific entity originating from it.
Pretty much any deity (CE especially, though within one step works, or even beyond. You might even be a heretic/heterodox of a faith of your party's cleric, or at least claim to serve them).

And of course, themselves. Any of these could supply the needed thematics and conflicts to align themselves with the party.

[Florian]

@thecrimsondawn:

Ah, ok, that's Path of War specific then.
Well, stanprollyright already mentioned going the dazzling display route. I would suggest picking Barroom Brawler for a bit more flexibility and maybe even Disheartening Display.

As you already mentioned Unchained stuff, have you checked with your gm if scaling items are an ok option? The Glorious Gorget would be interesting then for the competence bonus as well as buffing up your diplomacy and intimidate options.

@Gods/Patron:

Baphomet and his Templars of the Ivory Labyrinth is themathically quite strong.