Help! Strict DM and new to the rules.

[SMac8988]

Hello giants! As said above I am new to fifth edition, and normally played with a very open 3.5 dm. A friend and I recently joined a new group, so we could play together for a change, and the Dm is super set by the rules and won't deviate much from the core rule book.

I joined up with the group with the goal of playing a dwarven mammoth rider, but accepted that won't happen. My biggest goal now is to get a mounted character still, looking at paladin since his mount can be summoned and desummoned if we go into a cave.

I am very new to 5th edition so any suggestions or help would be amazing.

Stats are 8 10 12 13 14 15 to assign as we want, with no start feats. Only the given for level one in a class. Was panning a mountain dwarf, since my friend and I are playing brothers.

Thank you all so much, in advance!!

[Corran]

Have your friend play a moon druid. At some point I think the moon druid can transform into a mammoth. Now your dreams come true via teamwork!

[SMac8988]

Lol he was going to go some dragon mage thing, but thus DM said no and convinced him to be a cleric so think that is out.

[Mjolnirbear]

A strict DM will restrict the list of mounts available to you with Find Steed. Being weaker mounts, consider barding and Mounted Combatant. Bear in mind that elephant is a listed mount option in the equipment list.

There is a house rule your DM may be interested in: the CR of mounts available go up when you cast with a higher level spell slot. Up cast from level 3 slot and maybe get a dire Wolf, upcast from a level 4 slot and maybe get a Pegasus.

Also for thematic reasons, the spirit you summon the first time is the one you bond with. Any future time you summon it, it takes whichever Form you like, like a familiar.

My halfling paladin is running around with a spirit from the feywild currently in the form of a blink dog, with occasional switches to elk as the need arises

[SMac8988]

My goal with the other build was a woolly rhino. Since out characters were from the north. That's way I wanted, but Idk

[Theodoxus]

With a strict DM, I like to game the system as much as I can. A half-elf rogue with all the necessary skills - if the DM is playing fair, you'll win most contests, and your combat won't suffer either.

But, if you're insistent on being a MDwarf... might want to drop your concept for something more doable. I'd be hesitant to play in a game where the DM dictated what class I was going to play - was it compromise of some kind or is your friend meek? Although Cleric can certainly be fun, and a Light, Tempest or Arcane domain can replicate some of the feel of a dragon sorcerer. But if your heart is set on one thing, and you're told you need to play something else... well, that's also where you are, isn't it.

IDK - the paladin idea is fine - you'll be more of a bruiser than a face... too bad you're not playing halflings (I have a very soft spot for halfling brothers who cause mayhem together, always having each others backs) - and a halfling paladin can ride his war dog into dungeons just fine...

[Lonely Tylenol]

Lol he was going to go some dragon mage thing, but thus DM said no and convinced him to be a cleric so think that is out.

Wait, why did he say no? Dragon heritage sorcerer is very much a core option for players who want "dragon-themed magic", even if Dragonborn is not being allowed (despite also being a core, albeit rare, race).

In any case, if your DM is not too stodgy, you might be able to convince him to let you have an elephant from the equipment list as your mount, reflavoring it as a "domesticated mammoth", after a suitable number of levels and gold so as to make it both affordable and balanced in the context of the game. It is definitely too strong to have a mammoth in a first-level game.

[SMac8988]

He said we could only play the base classes, and kinda told him a cleric who worships behumut would be close. He and I just really want to play together, since one of us has been DMing on and off for 6 years.

Hence why I am trying to make it work.

I figured with the Paladin at least I could desummon and go sword and board in caves and dungeon. And side we aren't getting much for feats I didn't think it would be a big deal. Figured I would get mounted combat and if boon pet was a thing to get the level up. And by level 4 I should be able to summon a rhino, which is large so could be a mount. It being intelligent means it could attack as well as move and I could attack too.

But like I said i'm not sure entirely how it all works

[Corran]

convince him to let you have an elephant from the equipment list as your mount, reflavoring it as a "domesticated mammoth"
This. Elephant = baby mammoth.

[Raphite1]

He said we could only play the base classes ...

Dragon bloodline sorcerer is a base class. PHB p 102. It's as core as you can get.

[EvanescentHero]

He said we could only play the base classes, and kinda told him a cleric who worships behumut would be close.

By "base classes," does he mean only the ones in the basic rules?

Because sorcerer is a base class, and dragon is one of the base bloodlines.

[Georlik]

By "base classes," does he mean only the ones in the basic rules?


Because paladin is not.

[Gwendol]

This. Elephant = baby mammoth.

African elephants are typically larger than the woolly mammoth.

[hymer]

African elephants are typically larger than the woolly mammoth.

Obviously, since the African elephant tends to consists of more than bones these days. :smallwink:
But seriously, the MM backs this viewpoint up to some degree, referring to the mammoth as merely 'stockier' than the elephant, rather than outright larger. So the MM mammoth may well be a woolly mammoth, which was quite similar in size to the modern African elephant. But the stats would not be completely off representing, say, a steppe mammoth. These were ancestors of woolly mammoths, and bigger.

[SMac8988]

Thank you all for the advice. I wasnt there for the first night so im not 100% how he ended up a cleric, he told me he kinda got stuck as it. So my assumption is the group needed a healer and he didnt argue.

The elephant idea may work, fingers crossed. Im really sad they removed the rhino from the mount list. If the animal is cestlial does that make it white and gold or do i deci see its colors?

[Maxilian]

My goal with the other build was a woolly rhino. Since out characters were from the north. That's way I wanted, but Idk

You could still get this, try asking your DM if you could get a Elephant with the Find Steed spell (its in the mount list, so is possible) and just refluff it as a Wooly Rhino

[Maxilian]

Thank you all for the advice. I wasnt there for the first night so im not 100% how he ended up a cleric, he told me he kinda got stuck as it. So my assumption is the group needed a healer and he didnt argue.

The elephant idea may work, fingers crossed. Im really sad they removed the rhino from the mount list. If the animal is cestlial does that make it white and gold or do i deci see its colors?

You decide but we all know all Rhinos are pink
http://embiearts.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/pink-rhino-sml1.jpg

[SMac8988]

Oh true. Ill ask!!!

So what would you all suggest build wise? Should i skip my level4 stat buff for a feat? Or not worry about mounted combat and all. Also is there a way to increase my caster level so i could get my elephant/rhino prior to level likee 13?

[Sitri]

This is a bad edition to have an overly restrictively DM. In the other editions I played, if a DM was more interested in "Their story being told" than actual player agency, you could normally point to some rules to help your case a little. Even if you learn the book like the back of your hand, you are going to find many instances where the DM may tell you to "Shut up and color" and the book will back him on it.

Your DM sounds a bit like the first one I played 5e with; every "optional rule" was out from the start and there was so much more that he would ax on the fly citing some personal aesthetic displeasure; and the book backs him on this......as long as you ignore why it says you should be changing rules.

There is so much DM empowerment, as some like to call it, that a bad DM can leech everyone's fun and feel quite justified in doing so. We cycled through about 10 or more players in his games in a few sessions because of this with all but one player leaving really pissed off. Another player hit the nail on the head when he said he felt like he was being forced to watch this guy manually stimulate himself for 5 hours (in not as nice words.)

If you have the option, I would look for a DM that wants to find ways for players to have fun. This edition also gives extra wiggle room in the book to do this as well. In fact, it claims that is what all the vagueness and optional rules are for. I don't know what your gaming area is like for player base, but I know there are DMs out there that could easily give you the experience you are looking for and weave it into a story they would like to tell as well.

[SMac8988]

Ya I am normally a dm, and have already told the shop we are playing at that if this guy is as bad as im being told ill start my own story. Apprently there is a player that shots down stuff before the dm can even voice an opinion. I just dont get that style of play. Like i play fantasy to do whatever i want and as a dm i want to allow my players to do the same.

This is going to be my first time playing 5e, and a paladin which i feel maybe rough, lol.

[Vogonjeltz]

Oh true. Ill ask!!!

So what would you all suggest build wise? Should i skip my level4 stat buff for a feat? Or not worry about mounted combat and all. Also is there a way to increase my caster level so i could get my elephant/rhino prior to level likee 13?

It really depends on what you want to do. If you're not seeing alot of mounted combat, it's probably not worth picking the feat up until later on. Stat increases are actually quite meaningful because of the bounded accuracy of 5e, so I'd tend to go with that initially, unless you see a feat that you want that also increases your primary or secondary stat.

i.e. Heavy Armor Master instead of +2 str.

No, you can't get there faster than 5th level of Paladin.
There aren't caster levels, and what level of spell you can cast is entirely dependent on the number of levels you have in that specific class.

i.e. If you multiclass into another spellcasting class like Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, etc... you would determine spell slots access by the formulas given in that chapter, but you wouldn't continue to gain access to higher level Paladin spells because you wouldn't meet the requirements for them.

Any multiclassing would delay access to Find Steed, and only the Paladin has that spell on their default spell list.

[SMac8988]

Wanted to thank everyone for the help. After using your advice i have finished up my level 1 version for now. And have decided i will start my mount life on a bison, cr 1/4, and move up to my rhino at higher levels.

Build idea so far: http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=632344

[Beany]

“The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules.”
― Gary Gygax

I agree with the man. I've been playing D&D for a long time. I've played every edition and own every edition. A good DM and a good story doesn't need rules. I had a game in 3.5 edition where I had a guy who wanted to quote rules to me because I was a relaxed DM and like to say yes to my payers. Eventually the other players showed him where the door was. I hope you can find a way to enjoy the game. I also hope that your DM decides the golden rule is more important than all the others and that is, "Let fun and story override the rules."

[Corran]

“The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules.”
― Gary Gygax

I agree with the man. I've been playing D&D for a long time. I've played every edition and own every edition. A good DM and a good story doesn't need rules. I had a game in 3.5 edition where I had a guy who wanted to quote rules to me because I was a relaxed DM and like to say yes to my payers. Eventually the other players showed him where the door was. I hope you can find a way to enjoy the game. I also hope that your DM decides the golden rule is more important than all the others and that is, "Let fun and story override the rules."
I respectfully disagree. A good story needs rules. How else can you differentiate faillure from success, without a set of impartial and logical rules that define what you can and cannot do, and when you are successful and when you aren't? If there is no chance of failing, then there is no suspens, the choies you make weight nothing, and you just sit tight watching a story unfold knowing that whatever you do it will unfold the same way. Personally I dont like these kind of stories, as I like my characters' actions to matter, and without rules there is not an impartial and subjective way to address that.

[Beany]

Lol Corran, I understand what you're saying and agree with you. I suppose I should have been more clear but didn't feel the need on this thread before. Consequences are vital for a good story. I just find the idea of strict rule Nazi's annoying and not fun. The game is played to be fun otherwise why play. The rules are to give us a guide and make the world tangible. I have played in games though where the rules have bogged down any creativity though and the DM didn't know how to say yes once in awhile. It takes a good DM to know when to loosen up and when to be firm.

[Tanarii]

the Dm is super set by the rules and won't deviate much from the core rule book.Absolutely nothing wrong with a PHB rules only game. And if he's allowing Feats and/or Multiclassing, he's not being strict. Those are optional rules.

The main things you'll need for your mounted combatant: Animal Handling skill, Mounted Combat feat, and a Lance. And a mount of course, preferably a Warhorse. And Barding. That's all not cheap, and gold doesn't come fast in default 5e treasure parcels. So Paladin will definitely help there.

IMO Animal Handling should have been named 'Ride'. It took me a while to realize what its primary purpose was. Or I could just be slow.

[Sitri]

You decide but we all know all Rhinos are pink
http://embiearts.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/pink-rhino-sml1.jpg

just ask Madam Mim!


“The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules.”
― Gary Gygax

I agree with the man. I've been playing D&D for a long time. I've played every edition and own every edition. A good DM and a good story doesn't need rules. I had a game in 3.5 edition where I had a guy who wanted to quote rules to me because I was a relaxed DM and like to say yes to my payers. Eventually the other players showed him where the door was. I hope you can find a way to enjoy the game. I also hope that your DM decides the golden rule is more important than all the others and that is, "Let fun and story override the rules."

I played some White Wolf game for a few games that operated on this premise. We really barely even rolled dice. Ultimately it was not my cup of tea. Rules and rule mastery add a lot of fun for me.


To clarify and not sound like I am contradicting myself: Rules good, options good, hyper restriction for personal gratification or short-comings bad.

[Edenbeast]

Have you asked why your GM doesn't allow the mammoth? Most of my games are based on our current biodiversity with some monstrous deviations. Extinct species like dinosaurs are out.

[SMac8988]

I normally dm and i'm very lose with rules. My view is a good player and someone who is as invested in the story as I am won't try to break the "rules" and will try to maintain the flow of everything. And so far I haven't had any real big problems. I'm also the dm with minimal dice rolls, I started my story telling career in white wolf though.

He hadn't said no to mammoth yet. he said no to the mammoth rider class, wanting everyone to stick with core game classes.

So current goal is you go pally and just use my mount summon to maintain my riding skills, since it is intelligent and I can control it telepathically so I'll still get my attack and it can charge. my big thing was to avoid a horse, i'm more into the odd mounts, like a rhino or bison, especially with a dwarf. Since I feel a dwarf on a horse just looks silly.

I appreciate everyone getting involved and helping me out with this. I'm pretty sure i'm going to sacrifice my level 8 stat boost for mounted combat and possibly 12 for heavy armor matter. Still not completely getting this feat vs stat thing, feel like i'm going to under powered....

[Tanarii]

Generally speaking, Feats are more powerful than a stat boost, within their given activity. As long as you have a 16 or 18 str, and a 14 or 16 Cha, you'll be able to do what you need to do.

That's not to say you shouldn't consider Max Str, and a higher Cha. Just that you can operate without them.

[Sitri]

...
Still not completely getting this feat vs stat thing, feel like i'm going to under powered....

This is something I never fully came to terms with either, although I am getting used to it slowly.

My current DM tossed around the idea of "half feats" for a while, and I wish we would have gone with that but the campaign was already in play. Essentially most of the feat mechanics were split into two separate feats and every two levels you could get a plus 1 stat boost or select a feat. That idea seems to mitigate the cost and expand the options.

[SMac8988]

That would be nice. Idk I just feel like if I don't take the stats i'm going to fall behind, but the feats seem like the are really good and will help maintain the idea I have. I don't need to be the strongest member of the team, but I also don't want to be a henderence.

[Flashy]

That would be nice. Idk I just feel like if I don't take the stats i'm going to fall behind, but the feats seem like the are really good and will help maintain the idea I have. I don't need to be the strongest member of the team, but I also don't want to be a henderence.

You won't fall behind. As long as you have at least a 16 in your primary stat you'll be able to contribute. My party has an 8th level paladin who has only ever taken feats and he's still probably the biggest contributor in combat.

[SMac8988]

My thought was level 4 take heavy armor master, the one that gives the +1 str,, then 8 take mounted combat. Then 12 bring my str to 18 and my charisma to 16. Reevaluate at that point. Hopefully by 8 I've bought full plate, a buffed lance and maybe a few rings/ magic gear.

[Flashy]

Hopefully by 8 I've bought full plate, a buffed lance and maybe a few rings/ magic gear.

Have you talked to your DM about magic item availability? 5e as a system is agnostic about the existence of magic items at all and the DMG these days actively suggests that any magic items that do exist not be available to buy and sell. It's perfectly possible that these things DO exist in the campaign you're going to be playing in, but the days of the guaranteed magic item mart are over. This is especially true if your DM is being otherwise very strict about rules, intent, and other factors that relate to magic item availability.

[Tanarii]

Level 7-8 is about when you'll be able to afford Full Plate if he's using standard treasure, and you don't spend on other things in the mean time. If he's playing strict by the book, you probably won't be able to buy magic items at all.

[SMac8988]

True didn't think of that. I mean a smite lance will still hurt like a banshee. Also I haven't gotten a chance to look into it. Do lances still do bonus damage at the end of a charge?

[Flashy]

True didn't think of that. I mean a smite lance will still hurt like a banshee. Also I haven't gotten a chance to look into it. Do lances still do bonus damage at the end of a charge?

No. Among other things "charging" isn't a defined concept anymore unless you have the charger feat. The advantage of a lance is that you can wield it one handed while mounted and it still does the full 1d12 damage, which is more than any other single handed weapon in the game. Unmounted you have to wield it in both hands, and it always has disadvantage on attack rolls against enemies who are within 5 feet.

It will still be an outrageous amount of damage though.

[SMac8988]

Ya my goal is to sword and board when off my mount, and pull my lance out as often as I can.

Now since charge isn't as need, since no damage boast, now does mounted combat work? Can my mount still trample/overrun? And do they get an attack at the end, since my mount will follow telepathic orders?

Also does the charger feat apply to my mount moving? Or would my mount need that feat? Also do paladin mounts get levels and feats anymore?

[mephnick]

I personally feel like stat boosts are all but meaningless in this edition. I would choose a feat every single time if they're available.

The difference between a +8 to hit and a +10 to hit isn't a big deal since AC's are low. I feel it's almost always better to take a feat that will allow you to do more things or perform your role better.

[Mechaviking]

Wanted to thank everyone for the help. After using your advice i have finished up my level 1 version for now. And have decided i will start my mount life on a bison, cr 1/4, and move up to my rhino at higher levels.

Build idea so far: http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=632344

Just to clarify a bit:

Dwarven resilience gives you advantage vs poison and resistance to poison.

Stone cunning allows you to add double your proficiency bonus on checks related to stone(but that´s +2 at the moment), and you won´t even need the history skill(for stonework that is).

Also Chainmail sets your AC to 16 and you wont get to use your dex modifier on ac anymore(only light and medium armors do that)

[Build Advice]


My thought was level 4 take heavy armor master, the one that gives the +1 str,, then 8 take mounted combat. Then 12 bring my str to 18 and my charisma to 16. Reevaluate at that point. Hopefully by 8 I've bought full plate, a buffed lance and maybe a few rings/ magic gear.

I´d swap strength and charisma so that heavy armor mastery gives you 18 strength at level 4, then if you use mounted combat a lot from levels 5-7 get the feat at level 8. At 12 you can still buff your charisma to 16 if that´s what you want, but you´ll be more reliable in the 4-7 range.

Personally I´d also swap out dex and wisdom, but I can see merit to either case, but in this case dex only gives you 2 higher initiative and a higher dex save which is somewhat mitigated with higher hp anyways.


Good luck, and remember don´t be a paladin that has an immovable rod up his pooper, be a cool one :D

[SMac8988]

Ok, I'll adjust the traits, this was a quick version our dm is putting then in paper, and has to review everything.

I feel that makes heavy armor not that great, doesn't that mean 20 is as high as I can get?

The stat advice I am taking. Thanks for that, I don't know the paladin class very well remembered in older editions you needed wisdom too. I'll be changing all those around.

My back story for him is he was a drunk bruiser who was saved by a knight of bahumet who lead him in a path of light. I'll be playing him as if he just started his pilgrimage for bahumets grace, and to return home and smite the evil that is there. He is a vengeance paladin, so no sticks

[Tanarii]

I feel that makes heavy armor not that great, doesn't that mean 20 is as high as I can get?
Heavy armor is fantastic. It lets you not spend any points on Dex in a point buy and still have a good AC. Typically one point better than someone in Light Armor and Max Dex, or medium Armor and Dex 14.

It also compensates for having Dex lower than 10, because you don't add bonuses or penalties, which can be a godsend with a rolled stat array.

Both of these allow you to spend points or use high stats elsewhere. Typically Str.

[SMac8988]

Oh awesome. I see now plate will give me the highest possible, and then if I get more buff stuff I'll be good.

I'm just looking to make sure he is awesome and fun!

[SMac8988]

So fellow giants, idk if this is a resurrection or not but i am hopefully caling you all back for help!!!!

So after a couple of plays i am loving my paladin, he is just a ton of fun. I've managed one level, our dm states he only does 100 exp a night i know dumb....

But the group has requested that i become somewhat a guard to the squishies. So far they are able to blow up what we fight, but mobs are dashing the line and we have nearly had 3 back party whipes that the cleric and i have to clean up. My dm has agreed to work with me for adjusting to this, perfering i stay dwarf, but if needed i can change.

My goal is to stay a plaldin, and pick up a halbred and go polearm/sentinel build. Also getting heavy armor master. Any other advice or am i doing this all wrong?

[EvanescentHero]

See if he'll let you trade your fighting style for the tunnel fighter one they just put out in Unearthed Arcana, since that more or less gives you infinite opportunity attacks. Then do your best to position yourself so that enemies have to move past you to get to the back.

[SMac8988]

Idk if he will let me do that. ....

[Lonely Tylenol]

100 XP a night? That's rough. Like... Unreasonably rough. I hope that's just the total for first level... Otherwise it'll take you over a year's worth of play sessions to reach level five, and nearly 70 years to reach level 20! You'd better make sure he's aware that XP requirements scale quadratically, not linearly. (If it's... Like... 100*lvl experience per night, it's not as bad... But it's still pretty rough.)

If he will not let you take Tunnel Fighter, you're cherry. Oath of the Crown (from Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide) is preferred when you take your oath, but failing that, any of the other oaths is serviceable.

[Sigreid]

Have you talked to your DM about magic item availability? 5e as a system is agnostic about the existence of magic items at all and the DMG these days actively suggests that any magic items that do exist not be available to buy and sell. It's perfectly possible that these things DO exist in the campaign you're going to be playing in, but the days of the guaranteed magic item mart are over. This is especially true if your DM is being otherwise very strict about rules, intent, and other factors that relate to magic item availability.

I don't think the game itself is anti-magic items. I think they just took into account the complaints about having a minimum level of magic to be able to adventure at various levels and instead they allow the party to hit above their level rather than being an absolute must. It basically just opens the game up to more styles of campaign.

[Flashy]

I don't think the game itself is anti-magic items. I think they just took into account the complaints about having a minimum level of magic to be able to adventure at various levels and instead they allow the party to hit above their level rather than being an absolute must. It basically just opens the game up to more styles of campaign.

I totally agree with you. I just think that someone who's being a stickler for the RAW might run away with the idea that commonly available magic items are flat out not supposed to be a thing. That's not really the case, but coming from a 3.5 mindset it's an easy reaction to have. I know it was a kneejerk I went through. It's a good thing to talk to talk to your DM about anyway, since they're the one making that choice either way. The system honestly works perfectly well at basically any magic item level.

[steppedonad4]

This DM doesn't sound like he's strict, he sounds like a ****.

[EvanescentHero]

Idk if he will let me do that. ....

It's worth asking, at least! Especially since everyone else seems to be making you change.

[SMac8988]

He says via wizard its 100 a night flat, no bonus per level. He also is only doing 1 fight a night, which is all we get exp for....

and i feel he will only let me stick to the main player hand book, nothing from anything else... like he even if he would there is a player, one of the mages saying i need to defend him since he is "our main dps and does all the work", who argues every time we try and go outside the exact rules. Like im a 3.5 player, and i dm mainly im reallu big on tell me what you want to do and ill work out how it works thats my job. This guy is kinda unreasonable.....

i just dont know how to build a character with this guy i will enjoy and still be useful to the group.....

[Mr.Moron]

He says via wizard its 100 a night flat, no bonus per level. He also is only doing 1 fight a night, which is all we get exp for....

and i feel he will only let me stick to the main player hand book, nothing from anything else... like he even if he would there is a player, one of the mages saying i need to defend him since he is "our main dps and does all the work", who argues every time we try and go outside the exact rules. Like im a 3.5 player, and i dm mainly im reallu big on tell me what you want to do and ill work out how it works thats my job. This guy is kinda unreasonable.....

i just dont know how to build a character with this guy i will enjoy and still be useful to the group.....

It's clear that if you're only doing 1 combat per night, and a relatively low XP one at that it's probably not going to be the game where combat performance matters as much. No point in getting hung up so much on things like damage, efficiency or builds for fancy combat tricks because those things will be showing up for 10, 20 minutes max per session.

Assuming you're not having 1 hour sessions and also not spending the rest of your time starting at the walls, you must be doing something else with that time. Depending on what those are look to develop something beyond your character's combat mechanics.

If it's largely an exploration and world-building game, come up with a few things your character really cares about learning or things they want to discover.
If it's largely a talky game with focus on mundane interactions, come up with your chartacer's likes and dislikes figure out what he likes to do in his free time.
If it's largely a political or military game with a focus on planning and execution, come up with your character's political goals and approach to attaining power.


What does the game focus on? When you guys sit down at the table and your characters are doing things what are they doing most of the time, in what part of the game world, with who and why?

EDIT: Also consider if you really want to be in that sort of game. The impression I'm getting is you have a laser-focus on character optimization and combat builds the primary means of enjoying the game. A 1 combat per session game just might wind up being more of a burden than fun if that's the case.

[SMac8988]

I like the rp aspect of the game, and combat isnt my only goal, but i feel most people want to be a hero and right now i feel like we are more just hanging out. Some how we set a demon free, or so we were told, i dont know of what interaction caused that....

As of now this is the only group my friend and i can play with and ita my first interaction with 5th edition.

I am cool with mostly anything, i am a paladin so i have a good deal of cha, so im pretty good social interaction wise, and i have my character well set in my head as to who he is and all. I am just trying to make sure my character is well set to help my party is combat. Im far from a min/max player, just like being helpful....

[Mr.Moron]

He says via wizard its 100 a night flat, no bonus per level. He also is only doing 1 fight a night, which is all we get exp for....

and i feel he will only let me stick to the main player hand book, nothing from anything else... like he even if he would there is a player, one of the mages saying i need to defend him since he is "our main dps and does all the work", who argues every time we try and go outside the exact rules. Like im a 3.5 player, and i dm mainly im reallu big on tell me what you want to do and ill work out how it works thats my job. This guy is kinda unreasonable.....

i just dont know how to build a character with this guy i will enjoy and still be useful to the group.....

Again character builds and combat rules won't matter much in a 1 combat per sessions game. Being "useful" is only really a relevant issue when you have a substantive number of combats to contend with.

"DPS" and "Protecting" the mage just aren't important in a game like the one you're describing. Just ignore whatever he says and focus on the content you have to explore.

[SMac8988]

Only problem is when that one fight is a pain in the ass and half our team gets dove and nearly killed. It maybe one time a night but its rough fights, so being good during those are important astalking to joe the bartender...

[Tanarii]

there is a player, one of the mages saying i need to defend him since he is "our main dps and does all the work", who argues every time we try and go outside the exact rules. Like im a 3.5 player, and i dm mainly im reallu big on tell me what you want to do and ill work out how it works thats my job. This guy is kinda unreasonable.....
That player is going to run into a lot of problems in a non-combat oriented 5e game in the long run. Outside of mechanic, the default mechanic *is* "tell the DM what you want and he figures out how it works". Usually in the form of an ability check, if a check is necessary.


I'm with Mr.Moron (that name tho ...) on this one. If it's a low combat focus game, put aside worries about combat, and focus on the story and interacting with it.

Your game sounds like 5e WotC /AL module being run at a home table to me. Those modules have combat, but you don't need to worry about optimizing for it, and can focus on party dynamics and RP and what the hell is going on in the story's plot.

(Less so at Encounters sessions where pickup players are more common and attention span for non-combat story plot elements is, uh ... generally lacking. To be generous. I swear most players act like they are trying to click next through the cut-scene / text dialog as quickly as possible. ;) )

Edit: or maybe not. Cross posted. Yeah if combat is that hard, gotta pay attention when the time comes and be geared & built for it.

[SMac8988]

Like i did online non combat rping for a while. If it was all rp based id be ok, its the fact the combat that comes is really hard, he has said he is a dm who tries to kill pcs

[JoeJ]

Like i did online non combat rping for a while. If it was all rp based id be ok, its the fact the combat that comes is really hard, he has said he is a dm who tries to kill pcs

I'd say that's a warning sign. Killing PCs is trivially easy for any DM, and if that's what he thinks his goal is, then sooner or later he's probably going to decide that he's being too easy on you and increase the number and/or power of the monsters until he succeeds in getting the death rate he wants.

[SMac8988]

I'd say that's a warning sign. Killing PCs is trivially easy for any DM, and if that's what he thinks his goal is, then sooner or later he's probably going to decide that he's being too easy on you and increase the number and/or power of the monsters until he succeeds in getting the death rate he wants.

Ya i know, big isue with that. Ill bring it up to him next time. I missed the first night where that was said, and was only just about it at the end of last session.

[Tanarii]

Like i did online non combat rping for a while. If it was all rp based id be ok, its the fact the combat that comes is really hard, he has said he is a dm who tries to kill pcs
If he means that he runs a module's encounters as tactically as he can with the goal of trying to defeat the PCs, and doesn't pull any punches, you definitely need to optimize and coordinate both builds and tactics with the party.

If he just wants to kill PCs you're screwed.

If you're trying to protect the Mage, you probably want Sentinel or Shield Master feats asap. Edit: ah yea just looked back see you said you're reworking as Polearms sentinel. Good idea. Also Polearm Master should be your second feat, since it gives you an opportunity attack when they enter your reach, as opposed to leave it.

The alternate build is sword & board, with Protection style and Sheild Master. That gives you the ability to knock enemies prone or push them away as a bonus action, and use your reaction to give disadvantage to an adjacent ally.

Sentinel/PAM works better if you can form a choke point away from your squishes. S&B/Protection/Sheild Master works better if you are fighting next to them. Generally speaking.

[SMac8988]

I think it is the first, make them challenging and try and best us. I'm hoping he was just quoted wrong with that wanting to kill us.

I've wanted to go sword and board, and have a lance on my back for mounted combat, which is what I really want to do. I'm just hoping I don't focus to much on feats, since then my stats won't get boasted.

[gfishfunk]

I love Shield Master for Sword and Board builds. It is really useful for knocking enemies down, and then moving away from them to get into better position.

[SMac8988]

I am thinking; shield master, heavy armor master and mounted combat, and possibly sential. But that would be 4 feats, meaning my str could be 18, with heavy armor, but nothing else is getting past 14 or so without items. Which Idk if that is worth it.

I just really need to play more and get a good feel for it all. I feel like stats and feats are in demand in 5e. Which makes me feel under whelming...

[EvanescentHero]

I just really need to play more and get a good feel for it all. I feel like stats and feats are in demand in 5e. Which makes me feel under whelming...

Stats are less important in 5e, to a point. You can get by just fine without maxing out your scores.

[SMac8988]

Should I be concerned with getting my charisma up higher since i'm a paladin, or would 14 work?

[WickerNipple]

Should I be concerned with getting my charisma up higher since i'm a paladin, or would 14 work?

14 is fine.

[SMac8988]

Awesome. What would be a good order to get the feat? I was thinking heavy armor master early, since that is when it is most effective. But I feel shield master is needed like asap

[WickerNipple]

Awesome. What would be a good order to get the feat? I was thinking heavy armor master early, since that is when it is most effective. But I feel shield master is needed like asap

Personally I would get shield master right away and not bother with HA Mastery. I probably wouldn't bother with Mounted Combatant either unless I was sure the campaign would revolve around it.

[EvanescentHero]

Should I be concerned with getting my charisma up higher since i'm a paladin, or would 14 work?

The only thing charisma affects as a paladin is your spell save DC, the amount of spells you can prepare, and I think later on something to do with saving throws? Either way, you'll likely be burning your spell slots on smites more than anything, so don't worry too much about it.

[Sigreid]

Should I be concerned with getting my charisma up higher since i'm a paladin, or would 14 work?

Everyone in your party will love you, and your DM will curse your name if you max your CHA ASAP so that by 6th level your group is making nearly all their saving throws. Just my opinion.

[Lonely Tylenol]

The only thing charisma affects as a paladin is your spell save DC, the amount of spells you can prepare, and I think later on something to do with saving throws? Either way, you'll likely be burning your spell slots on smites more than anything, so don't worry too much about it.

I think you overshot. Charisma no longer has any bearing on your daily spell allotment.

[steppedonad4]

I think you overshot. Charisma no longer has any bearing on your daily spell allotment.

He said prepare.

[SMac8988]

My end goal for this character is to ride a golden horned white rhino covered in full plate into combat. Mounted combat is why I chose the paladin from the beginning, then learned how much I love them.

Heavy armor i've been on the fence with. I thought the +1 str would be nice plus the damage reduction at level 4. But I could see how it falls off super fast. So just do shield master level 4 and the maybe sentinel level 8, mounted combat 12???

[WickerNipple]

My end goal for this character is to ride a golden horned white rhino covered in full plate into combat. Mounted combat is why I chose the paladin from the beginning, then learned how much I love them.

Yes, but you don't need a feat to do any of that.

[Flashy]

Everyone in your party will love you, and your DM will curse your name if you max your CHA ASAP so that by 6th level your group is making nearly all their saving throws. Just my opinion.

Yeah, the paladin in my party recently multiclassed lore bard and between bardic inspiration and the auras we as players have pretty much forbidden him from ever boosting his strength over his charisma ever again. The support is too strong.

[Malifice]

He says via wizard its 100 a night flat, no bonus per level. He also is only doing 1 fight a night, which is all we get exp for....

How often are you getting long rests in between these fights?

[SMac8988]

Yes, but you don't need a feat to do any of that.

But to be epic at it, I want the feat. Hell if I can use it enough I may take two weapon fighting and run two lances! :).

And we have had 4 big fights and rested 3 times so far, so just about after each. Could decrease with tine though. So i'm just concerned with running out of smites

[Malifice]

And we have had 4 big fights and rested 3 times so far, so just about after each. Could decrease with tine though. So i'm just concerned with running out of smites

Youre getting long rests after nearly every single fight and youre worried about running out of smites?

Dude, this campaign is built to nova.

[SMac8988]

Youre getting long rests after nearly every single fight and youre worried about running out of smites?

Dude, this campaign is built to nova.

I'm not super concerned, just worried about later game, and bigger fights. As of now I have no issues, but we will see. I also was worried about the benefit from my aura, that can be a really powerful passive if I gave higher charisma. But outside of not being a dwarf, no really way to get my feats and max both Str and cha. Without items.

[Tanarii]

I am thinking; shield master, heavy armor master and mounted combat, and possibly sential. But that would be 4 feats, meaning my str could be 18, with heavy armor, but nothing else is getting past 14 or so without items. Which Idk if that is worth it.

I just really need to play more and get a good feel for it all. I feel like stats and feats are in demand in 5e. Which makes me feel under whelming...
IMO you're probably trying to do too many things. Pick one: mounted, damage, personal defense, or group defense. Then get the critical feats for those first at levels 4, and if needed 8. If you hit level 12 or 16 throw in some ASIs then.

I'm kind of biased in favor of ASIs though. My general guideline is no more than 1/2 feats, so 2 in a 5 ASI build.


And we have had 4 big fights and rested 3 times so far, so just about after each. Could decrease with tine though. So i'm just concerned with running out of smitesShort or long rests?

Either way, it hat doesn't really sound like 'by the book' (or by the module for most released so far). Unless he's doing Deadly encounters and they're Short Rests. There's nothing wrong with doing it that way, it's just not the guidelines recommend it.

[Malifice]

I'm not super concerned, just worried about later game, and bigger fights. As of now I have no issues, but we will see. I also was worried about the benefit from my aura, that can be a really powerful passive if I gave higher charisma. But outside of not being a dwarf, no really way to get my feats and max both Str and cha. Without items.

For a DM who 'plays by the rules' your DM doesnt get the inherent rest mechanism of 5E.

Youre supposed to (generally speaking) stretch those spell slots over 6-8 medium to hard encounters between long rests. Your DM is giving you every opportunity to nova the heck out of every encounter (I expect Barbarians to be in perma-rage, wizards to be spamming their highest level spell slots and Sorcs to blast sorcery points and monks Ki points like candy. You should be smiting on every single attack also).

What his ignorance (or refusal) to police the 5 minute Adventuring day does is push classes that rely on long rest resources (all full casters barring the warlock, and barbarians and paladins) to solid tier 1 status, and seriously impacting on other classes.

Once the game gets to 5th level, you'll be steamrolling his encounters unless he throws insane encounters at you, and youll find classes like the Fighter and Warlock will suck badly.

A party of 5 full casters at 5th level can reliably nova multiple fireballs in every encounter with no repurcussions for doing so. There is very little non (super deadly) encounters that can survive that kind of onslaught. As a consequence he'll up the deadliness of his encounters and the game will become super swingy.

It's not a campaign I would want to play in, but if youre enjoying it, have fun.

[SMac8988]

I'm by no means a pro, or a vet of 5e, so I take all the advice I can. Would picking up shield master at 4, and mounted at 8 be a good plan? or because the lance is reach if never get to use by shield bash properly? Or could I lance someone, then continue my move and then bonus action them to prone?

And the dm maybe doing rests like this at the beginning since we have 3 players with no previous d&d play. And then 2 with mild, my friend and I, and one who had a lot with this dm. like I said i've always played 3.5 and pathfinder, so i'm still adjusting to this and honestly this is my first relative caster class, normally playing barb or fighters....

Thank you all again for the continued help!

[Malifice]

I'm by no means a pro, or a vet of 5e, so I take all the advice I can. Would picking up shield master at 4, and mounted at 8 be a good plan? or because the lance is reach if never get to use by shield bash properly? Or could I lance someone, then continue my move and then bonus action them to prone?

And the dm maybe doing rests like this at the beginning since we have 3 players with no previous d&d play. And then 2 with mild, my friend and I, and one who had a lot with this dm. like I said i've always played 3.5 and pathfinder, so i'm still adjusting to this and honestly this is my first relative caster class, normally playing barb or fighters....

Thank you all again for the continued help!

The frequency and number of rests indicates what classes will be stronger than others.

In your current campaign look to stock up on (the more powerful) long rest recharge abilities (namely non warlock spell slots, and anything that keys off them). You wont need many.

I strongly suggest dipping like crazy to get as many nova abilities as you can. Sorcery points and metamagic, assassinate, cunning action, smite, spell slots, action surge, sup dice, rage... everything).

You can pull off some utterly broken combos when your DM doesnt care/ know about (or police) the 5 minute AD.

[SMac8988]

Like I said I assume this is due to us having several new players and to give then a feel for their spells. I think he will slowly take those away, most likely sooner than later.

And I want to stay full paladin so I can make sure my mount is as strong as possible.

[Lonely Tylenol]

He said prepare.

You're right. My bad.

[SMac8988]

Anyone have any idea is shield master can be used with mounted combat? Like charge/trample if my mount has it, then stab with lance then knock someone over as my bonus action

[EvanescentHero]

You're right. My bad.

Your username is super good, by the way.

[tieren]

Anyone have any idea is shield master can be used with mounted combat? Like charge/trample if my mount has it, then stab with lance then knock someone over as my bonus action

That's legal as long as target of shield shove is within 5 feet.

Protection fighting style will help you protect those squishies and later your mount.

[SMac8988]

Figured id give everyone an update. Character went over fine, dm actually helped me with down playing the rhino size for all levels, which was cool.

But I left the game shortly after. A new player showed up, seeing how my friend and I played our dwarven brothers and decided he wanted to be a family member. The dm said that was fine, which I was ok with, not happy since we put a lot of work into back story, but ok. Then he wanted to be a paladin as well, which didn't fit the family story at all, and the dm took my sheet and told him to go photo copy it. Several other things got to me, very inexperience dm playing by a module a friend made with very vague story points, and NO experience gained several nights in a row, but this just finished my interaction with this group.

Friends still plays, said last week one player was having phone sex with his girlfriend at the game and another was intentionally trying to kill party members, the "new paladin", for not agreeing with his plan of how to enter an abandon keep.

[Alejandro]

Figured id give everyone an update. Character went over fine, dm actually helped me with down playing the rhino size for all levels, which was cool.

But I left the game shortly after. A new player showed up, seeing how my friend and I played our dwarven brothers and decided he wanted to be a family member. The dm said that was fine, which I was ok with, not happy since we put a lot of work into back story, but ok. Then he wanted to be a paladin as well, which didn't fit the family story at all, and the dm took my sheet and told him to go photo copy it. Several other things got to me, very inexperience dm playing by a module a friend made with very vague story points, and NO experience gained several nights in a row, but this just finished my interaction with this group.

Friends still plays, said last week one player was having phone sex with his girlfriend at the game and another was intentionally trying to kill party members, the "new paladin", for not agreeing with his plan of how to enter an abandon keep.

I've been following this thread, as I honestly just was waiting for the figurative car crash, so I could see it. Now that it has arrived, it's more like a ten car pileup. I'm sorry.

Get your friend out of there ASAP and start a new group. Incidentally, how old are these 'players'?

[darkrose50]

I respectfully disagree. A good story needs rules. How else can you differentiate faillure from success, without a set of impartial and logical rules that define what you can and cannot do, and when you are successful and when you aren't? If there is no chance of failing, then there is no suspens, the choies you make weight nothing, and you just sit tight watching a story unfold knowing that whatever you do it will unfold the same way. Personally I dont like these kind of stories, as I like my characters' actions to matter, and without rules there is not an impartial and subjective way to address that.

There is, just about, no right way to have fun.

I can find following rules too closely to be not fun. I once played a mad scientist in the original Deadlands . . . it took a year to make something. That rule was not fun. Effectively I never made anything.

There needs to be a time for house rules.
[1] I plan on not limiting the number of cantrips a wizard can learn.
[2] I plan on creating cantrips, spells, and magical items that are non-adventuring focused.
[3] I plan on allowing Ranger animal companions to act without sacrificing actions.
[4] I do not like the idea of material components. Perhaps I will do away with the need for non-wand, and non-staff components once 3rd level, and wand components at 5th (perhaps grating a bonus for using them after).
[5] I plan on making my own list of backgrounds. I would allow someone to play a prince or princess, or the like.
[6] I plan on making my own economy, and price list.

I can find not following the rules to be not fun. One of my game masters is a great storyteller, however knowledge skills are virtually useless. Your character will never know anything about a mystery, or a monster, or anything that is not prompted by the GM. In effect your knowledge skills are a waist of space. This can be frustrating.

[darkrose50]

Ya i know, big isue with that. Ill bring it up to him next time. I missed the first night where that was said, and was only just about it at the end of last session.

There is a scale from:

[1] Fudging rolls, and choosing to make sub-optimal opponent actions (actions that would not make sense for the opponent).

[2] Not fudging rolls, and choosing to make optimal opponent actions (that make sense for the behavior, intelligence, and training of the opponent).

[3] Trying to kill PCs via being a jerk.

[darkrose50]

Figured id give everyone an update. Character went over fine, dm actually helped me with down playing the rhino size for all levels, which was cool.

But I left the game shortly after. A new player showed up, seeing how my friend and I played our dwarven brothers and decided he wanted to be a family member. The dm said that was fine, which I was ok with, not happy since we put a lot of work into back story, but ok. Then he wanted to be a paladin as well, which didn't fit the family story at all, and the dm took my sheet and told him to go photo copy it. Several other things got to me, very inexperience dm playing by a module a friend made with very vague story points, and NO experience gained several nights in a row, but this just finished my interaction with this group.

Friends still plays, said last week one player was having phone sex with his girlfriend at the game and another was intentionally trying to kill party members, the "new paladin", for not agreeing with his plan of how to enter an abandon keep.

That sucks.

[Mr.Moron]

[3] Trying to kill PCs via being a jerk.


"A Bear jumps at you!"
"I attack it with my sword of beast slaying"
"Your attack fails, the sword doesn't work"
"What? But it's super effective against all mammals"
"Yes. But it does so by blasting their internal organs with magic energy"
"So what? You're saying this bear doesn't have organs"
"No. This bear is filled with BEEs"
"That's stupid"
"The bear roars and fires bees out of it's mouth at you. You take (rolls 10d20) 107 damage"
"What? Don't I get a dexterity save"
"YOU CAN'T DODGE BEES"

[quinron]

I only just read this today, but I'm sorry this didn't work out, and I hope you find a new group that you and your friend can play in together.

I was waiting to see the other shoe drop after the 100-XP-per-session thing, and it most definitely did when you said you were nearly TPKing on these fights. As a party of, if I'm following correctly, 4 characters, then by the XP Challenge balance rules, it's nearly impossible (if not genuinely so) to make even a Hard encounter: the Hard threshold for 4 1st-level characters is 300 XP, while the highest "challenge" XP you can get for 100 "real" XP is 250 (10 CR0 creatures at 10 XP apiece, multiplied by 2.5 for numbers).

Trimming the rules tech from this post: any 100 XP fight, ever, that puts even one character in mortal danger is absurdly unfair according to 5e's balancing mechanics. Also, the amount of planning you were putting into your character would have been functionally impossible to accomplish.

[Tanarii]

the dm took my sheet and told him to go photo copy it.Wow. Was this a character sheet you had personally filled out? Because if so, that's unconscionable.

[SMac8988]

Wow. Was this a character sheet you had personally filled out? Because if so, that's unconscionable.

Yes, I spent a lot of time on the character.


I only just read this today, but I'm sorry this didn't work out, and I hope you find a new group that you and your friend can play in together.

I was waiting to see the other shoe drop after the 100-XP-per-session thing, and it most definitely did when you said you were nearly TPKing on these fights. As a party of, if I'm following correctly, 4 characters, then by the XP Challenge balance rules, it's nearly impossible (if not genuinely so) to make even a Hard encounter: the Hard threshold for 4 1st-level characters is 300 XP, while the highest "challenge" XP you can get for 100 "real" XP is 250 (10 CR0 creatures at 10 XP apiece, multiplied by 2.5 for numbers).

Trimming the rules tech from this post: any 100 XP fight, ever, that puts even one character in mortal danger is absurdly unfair according to 5e's balancing mechanics. Also, the amount of planning you were putting into your character would have been functionally impossible to accomplish.

I said **** it, and went back to story telling. I am going to look online in my minimal free time, two kids and two jobs, to get minor play in when I can. I have an idea for a new character since my Paladin is now tainted in my eyes.


"A Bear jumps at you!"
"I attack it with my sword of beast slaying"
"Your attack fails, the sword doesn't work"
"What? But it's super effective against all mammals"
"Yes. But it does so by blasting their internal organs with magic energy"
"So what? You're saying this bear doesn't have organs"
"No. This bear is filled with BEEs"
"That's stupid"
"The bear roars and fires bees out of it's mouth at you. You take (rolls 10d20) 107 damage"
"What? Don't I get a dexterity save"
"YOU CAN'T DODGE BEES"

EVERY FIGHT. He made us fight a shade, that had possessed an innocent man. The Shade could not take damage, but all attacks hurt the innocent. Cool Mechanic, cept the only way to hurt the shade was to flip these pots. And Each pot had a str check of 17 to flip, and did 1d6 necrotic damage from touching it...EVEN IF YOU FAILED.


There is a scale from:

[1] Fudging rolls, and choosing to make sub-optimal opponent actions (actions that would not make sense for the opponent).

[2] Not fudging rolls, and choosing to make optimal opponent actions (that make sense for the behavior, intelligence, and training of the opponent).

[3] Trying to kill PCs via being a jerk.

My friend still plays. They have a near TPK every night, unless the DM gives them something at the end to stop it. Like a magic scroll the res the whole team..... happened twice now.

The group is my friend, 26, the DM 22, and two older guys probably early 30's and two younger kids, 17-20ish.

I love D&D and tabletop Rping in general. I am also a HUGE advocate that everyone should be able to make THIER character. This kid was just a joke honestly. He only runs modules he likes, doesn't scale the fights for each players levels, doesn't read ahead. Will read puzzles out loud, then gets pissed when the players solve them to fast, saying the characters wouldn't know that. I miss playing a ton, but I would rather make sure people are having a good time, and involved in an engaging and detailed story then play with that mess again.

[Tanarii]

Yes, I spent a lot of time on the character.I would have flipped the hell out right there and then. That's like taking someone wallet or phone and handing it to someone else. Good job showing restraint.

[SMac8988]

I would have flipped the hell out right there and then. That's like taking someone wallet or phone and handing it to someone else. Good job showing restraint.

Well I went from in character with my thick, nearly incomprehensible Scottish (SOO FAKE) accent, to barely answering. Soon as we finished the fight we were in I said I was out. Grabbed my **** and left.

[Theodoxus]

Regarding rules (and the sometimes lack thereof) - I'm a loose DM, but I need a structure upon which to base the game. The D20 system works. I find Bounded Accuracy and Proficiency as pretty swank foundation for allowing pretty much anything a player can imagine.

I've found, after porting over a lot of PF classes specifically (I've completely fallen in love with the Golarion world and ethos) - it's actually very easy to squish 20 levels of Pathfinder classes into 20 levels of 5e balance.

With the basics of Proficiency, ASIs and Spell slots, you can mold anything to fit the structure.

So, I don't throw out everything - but if a player wants to play a necromancer who can animate hands and wants a large size skeleton guardian... that's simplistic enough to do. If the group wants to play gestalt, but one guy wants to be single classed and on par, powerwise - also easy to do.

The rules let the players know what's possible - the DM determines what's feasible. When the two are in accord, magic happens. When one side bullies the other - time to reconsider what you're playing for.

It is my fondest wish for every DM out there to be as lucky as me - a game to run, and a game to play. Learning for each side to improve the other.

[Talakeal]

Wow. I have had some really bad experiances, but even I am in shock of your DMs behavior.

[SMac8988]

I was surprised honestly. Like I have had rough DM's. Hell my first made sure he had a PC for himself in the story who got all the gear, was 3 levels higher than the party, and would tell us what to do, or kill us... was great fun....

[Alejandro]

Don't let these experiences affect you too much though. You'll find a better group and better players, instead of the immature and piss poor players you were temporarily cursed with.

[djreynolds]

Friends still plays, said last week one player was having phone sex with his girlfriend at the game and another was intentionally trying to kill party members, the "new paladin", for not agreeing with his plan of how to enter an abandon keep.

For real.?

We literally have women and children also at our table. And I yell PG all night. But phone sex, Boot him or boot him. I suggest the latter.

[Nibenay]

I was surprised honestly. Like I have had rough DM's. Hell my first made sure he had a PC for himself in the story who got all the gear, was 3 levels higher than the party, and would tell us what to do, or kill us... was great fun....

Seems you have some tough luck with DMs. Nobody is perfect, but clearly somebody is a bit too far from perfect! From how you told it, your last DM sounds more like being 12 than 22...

[SMac8988]

One was a friend, the later I described, and I ended up taking story telling away from him and took over. Within my group of friends I have been doing it since. I love to DM, but at times I do really miss playing, but like I said before, Id rather have someone join a game with a good story and a fair DM then me play and just get annoyed... LOol