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DreadArchon
2007-06-05, 10:39 PM
So, I just found Rich's gaming articles.

I *love* the Elemental Infiltrator class, but I just have to wonder: Is it my imagination, or is Fire--as the title states--absurdly underpowered in comparison to the others?

Sure, it gets UMD for cheaper, but that's rather minor and its abilities are laughable at best. Air is crazy maneuverable, as is Earth, and Water gets Alter Self at will, which has the same effect and more ("I grow wings. Okay, I'm slower, but I have all my other abilities too.") Fire? Fire saves a few gp on magic item upgrades and gains cold vulnerability, presumably costing it double--no, I'm sorry, it's quadratic, it should be squared--in protective items!

Is the Fire version really as freakishly underpowered as it appears to me? Am I missing something huge here?



(...Not that there's anything keeping me from houseruling it to something useful. Suggestions?)

Ironfist Orc
2007-06-08, 06:57 PM
I'm not really qualified but, yeah the Fire Infiltrator seems weaker than the other three. It is the only Inf. with a stated vulnerability, and I don't know if Burn is equivalent to "Fire Mastery" (the others all have xxx Mastery.) Pyrotechnics also seems very low powered and while Rich mentions why Air Inf.s get Fog Cloud, the Fire Inf. doesn't have a special movement ability...

Jasdoif
2007-06-08, 08:37 PM
I wouldn't call it "absurdly underpowered", no.


I think you're seriously underestimating the value of UMD. The possibility of using any magic device, even if it requires a class feature you don't have or an alignment or race that isn't yours, is pretty freakin' good.

Admittedly you don't get a nifty speed like the other elemental types do, and fire resistance is kinda lackluster, but you can just use a scroll of something like overland flight, passwall or water walk if you need to, thanks to the aforementioned UMD.

Pyrotechnics can have uses, particularly the blinding application. It's long range, and blinds in a 120 foot radius. Heck, at character level 8 you qualify to take Maximize Spell-Like Ability (Complete Arcane) for it, so if you want to take it the blinding duration is guaranteed to be 5 rounds. You can either use the blinding for sneak attacking, or to get away.

Vulnerability to cold increases damage by only 50%, and applies after cold resistance, so it's not really more expensive unless you normally skip out on energy resistance. Oh, and you're immune to fire too! Immunities are always nice, particularly if you can use something like wall of fire to take advantage of it.

And look at burn (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm#fireElemental). Anyone you hit with your newly gained slam attack, and anyone who hits you with an unarmed strike or natural weapon, takes fire damage and has to make a save or catch on fire.

DreadArchon
2007-06-09, 01:01 PM
Jasdoif: These points are true, but that the class has some usefulness does not necessarily make it on par with others.

Okay, Pyrotechnics could be fun, I admit, but it's not enough, IMAO. It allows saves, it requires you to carry around a source of flame to chuck at things, and it works on the user.

Fire immunity, while nice, isn't as good as movement; buying a good movement mode is much harder than buying fire protection, even if not immunity. And it's got cold vulnerability to balance against it.

And you almost certainly already have access to UMD, albeit at double cost now, which means that part is really only saving you a single skill point per level. Again, not worth it, as far as I'm concerned.

Burn is tolerably useful, but being set on fire isn't that impressive, especially at high levels.


Anyway, does anyone have any suggestions for something to give them to make them more balanced compared to the others?

Jasdoif
2007-06-09, 03:23 PM
Jasdoif: These points are true, but that the class has some usefulness does not necessarily make it on par with others.Fair enough. But "absurdly overpowered" suggests it was devoid of usefulness entirely; at least we're on the same page now.


Thing is, what kind of extra movement mode would a fire elemental have? Earth, water and air are pretty straightforward: Earth elementals have earth glide, water elementals have a swim speed, and air elementals have a fly speed. Meanwhile a fire elemental has a regular ol' ground speed and no abilities to give them extra movement. The closest thing I can think of is fiery discorporation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/fieryDiscorporation.htm). Hmm...or maybe something like the Shadowdancer's Shadow Jump, except between fires. (Keep the fire resistance though, so you don't get damaged from the attempt.)

Fire also has the stigma of being shared between the elemental "Fire, Water, Earth, Air" and the energy "Fire, Cold, Electric, Acid, Sonic". That's where the energy immunity and vulnerability comes in, it's a feature of the Fire subtype. (The creative could enter the class with a race with the Cold subtype, thus gaining immunity to fire and cold and making the vulnerabilities irrelevant). I'm going to guess the subtype is there because it's supposed to be related to other matters, so removing it is questionable...instead, what about healing from fire, a la iron golem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm#ironGolem)?

As for pyrotechnics...well, there are resourceful solutions to be found, but for the sake of convenience how about making all the infiltrators immune to blinding effects? Fire source isn't too much of a problem, carry a +1 flaming dagger or some alchemist's fire to ignite things, and you're set.

Burn...well, it can be a fun defense. And it's extraordinary, as opposed to supernatural. If there was ever a class designed to burn people inside an AMF, this one qualifies :smalltongue:


As for the skill points...well, I guess it's a matter of taste, but this is a class geared towards skill monkeys, and it's already 2 skill points per level behind a rogue. Keeping up skills cross-class may be a painful prospect to some players.

DreadArchon
2007-06-10, 11:06 AM
But "absurdly underpowered" suggests it was devoid of usefulness entirely...
Ah, sorry, my bad. I overstressed it; I didn't mean that the class is useless as the Fire version, but that a direct comparison between the Fire and others leaves it falling short beyond what one can easily justify.


Thing is, what kind of extra movement mode would a fire elemental have?
This is where I got stuck, too. I also considered trying to think of something good to give them instead of a movement mode. (Though land speed could work, actually.)


The closest thing I can think of is fiery discorporation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/fieryDiscorporation.htm). Hmm...or maybe something like the Shadowdancer's Shadow Jump, except between fires. (Keep the fire resistance though, so you don't get damaged from the attempt.)

...instead, what about healing from fire, a la iron golem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm#ironGolem)?
All good ideas! I'll consider them... And, yes, it'll still be fire resistant (and still get the Fire subtype at level 10; that makes too much sense to take out).


As for pyrotechnics...well, there are resourceful solutions to be found, but for the sake of convenience how about making all the infiltrators immune to blinding effects?
I dunno, that strikes me as particularly odd. I can maybe see it for Fire (IIRC the Manual of the Planes calls light a manifestation of the Fire element). Making the Fire Infiltrator immune to his own flare would be a good start, though.


Fire source isn't too much of a problem, carry a +1 flaming dagger or some alchemist's fire to ignite things, and you're set.
Either way takes at least a full round to set up, whereas other infiltrators just get to go "Shazam!" and be done. (Give Pyrotechnics as a move action, maybe?)


As for the skill points...well, I guess it's a matter of taste, but this is a class geared towards skill monkeys, and it's already 2 skill points per level behind a rogue. Keeping up skills cross-class may be a painful prospect to some players.
Depends what your cross-class skills are. An Air Inf likely doesn't worry about Jump or Climb (unless the DM has an antimagic fetish) at all, but the Fire might still want either of those.

rwald
2007-06-23, 03:57 AM
Here's some suggestions that a friend of mine made for improving the fire infiltrator. For Elemental Perfection II, grant +10 movement speed in addition to the +10 fire resistance. This makes sense because medium fire elementals have a movement speed of 50, faster than most humanoids. (For references, earth and water move at 20, and air moves at 100.) For Elemental Perfection III, replace Pyrotechnics with Fire Stride (from Spell Compendium; basically, the thing someone said earlier where you can enter one fire and walk out another within 400 ft.) Alternatively, replace Pyrotechnics with Flameblade, but I argued that was too good and not in the correct flavor. Anyway, what do you guys think?

Chuckles
2007-07-17, 06:40 PM
Well, you (Dread) have a fairly valid point, but I think fire isn't as underpowered as you'd think.

Fire has always struck me as one of the most chaotic elements, so it stands to reason a great many rogues would be attracted to the plane of fire. From that more alignment view, the fire infiltrator is a good choice.

Next, you have Jasdoif's other valid points: the ability to blind your opponents and the basic energy shield (I'm not familiar with all the terms, but I think that's the burn ability?). As a rogue you could take advantage of that blinding effect for your sneak attacks, as Jasdoif said, but also that fire effect could be justified as a circumstance bonus on many escape artist checks.

For example, if the fire infiltrator was hit with a web spell, the web would instantly ignite and catch everything it touches to flame. Not always the best thing if your friends are in it with you, but they can take the 2d4 damage. Or if the infiltrator is hit with tangling roots, you could grant a reasonable bonus to the infiltrator's escape artist check or reflex save. Obviously roots would have some difficulty latching onto someone who is an embodiment of fire.

Finally, you could argue as a player or as a DM (depending on how you like to DM) that most beastial opponents would be discouraged from attacking you after their first few swipes meet with a flaming response.

So those are some reasonable house rules and observations that make the fire infiltrator a little less kitten like.

Oh, and I'm new here! I just thought I'd comment on how polite and well-spoken people in these forums are. It's a nice change of pace from many forums I've been to! Please send me messages if I've fudged up any rules or if you can help explain some things I may have appeared to not know, like that burn ability, for example. Thanks!