9th level spells at caster level 1?

[Tedective]

So I found out how to prepare 9th level spells in a 1st level slot at level 4 (Gotta have money first).

Only question, does this wizard (let's be honest it's always a wizard) still need caster level 17 to cast this 9th level spell from a 1st level slot?

If so, what cheap, inexpensive ways are there to attain sufficient caster level earlier than 17?

*Assuming all caster level boosts stack*

[Troacctid]

Depends on how you're doing it. If you're a cleric burning a bunch of candles of invocation, for example, you'd have no problem, since the candle explicitly allows you to cast higher-level spells than normal.

[Tedective]

candles of invocation

I like it, 8,400G for essentially a +2 to casting spell slot levels is nice, but there's a few things wrong with this.

1, Cleric. I've never had any luck playing Clerics. I really like the class, the class just really hates me.

2, Spell Level. I've already got the spell level down by fitting 9th level spells in 1st level slots.

3, Gate. The bonus of Gate is nice, but unneeded here as it adds unnecessary gizmos to the magic item.

The 4 hour duration doesn't really bug me though, if I were playing a cleric with this kind of cheese active, just prep the 9th level spell as norm, but when the BBEG shows up, light all... 8 candles (67,200G) at once and cast... Energy Drain? Sure Energy Drain. :)
Very inexpensive for its effect, usable on its own, and able to generate more of itself possibly?
Best thing is that Clerics learn all spells possible to them at the time they gain access to the new level spell level...
Only thing needed then is a wizard to use a couple scrolls for the cheese to start melting.

[Crake]

I like it, 8,400G for essentially a +2 to casting spell slot levels is nice, but there's a few things wrong with this.

1, Cleric. I've never had any luck playing Clerics. I really like the class, the class just really hates me.

2, Spell Level. I've already got the spell level down by fitting 9th level spells in 1st level slots.

3, Gate. The bonus of Gate is nice, but unneeded here as it adds unnecessary gizmos to the magic item.

The 4 hour duration doesn't really bug me though, if I were playing a cleric with this kind of cheese active, just prep the 9th level spell as norm, but when the BBEG shows up, light all... 8 candles (67,200G) at once and cast... Energy Drain? Sure Energy Drain. :)
Very inexpensive for its effect, usable on its own, and able to generate more of itself possibly?
Best thing is that Clerics learn all spells possible to them at the time they gain access to the new level spell level...
Only thing needed then is a wizard to use a couple scrolls for the cheese to start melting.

I think you're misinterpreting how the candle functions for a cleric. Burning them at the start of a fight does nothing for you, because you have the spell slots, but you haven't prayed for spells, so you gain no extra spells. You need to burn the candles as you're praying for spells, and then you can prepare those higher level spells, and have access to the for as long as the candles burn (if you put out the candles, you lose the extra spells).

As for how you find yourself in a spot where you can prepare, but not cast a spell, I don't know how that's even possible. If a spell has been prepared, I cannot imagine why it cannot be cast. There is definitely precedence for spells being able to be cast at a lower caster level than "normal" (see any 10 level prc with 9th level spells, chamaleon, and the precocious apprentice feat, and versatile spellcaster with a runestaff or knowstone).

Can you explain the method you used to prepare this 9th level spell in your 1st level slot by the way?

[Tedective]

explain

Rary's Arcane Conversion tied to an Energy Transformation Field with feats Heighten Spell and Easy Metamagic (Heighten Spell).

Prep an Orison with Heighten spell into a 1st level slot, then bump it to a 2nd level spell with Easy MM.

Throw 6 spell levels of spells into Energy Transformation Field, proccing Rary's Arcane Conversion onto you, allowing you to re-prepare your 2nd level slot into a 1st level spell with 1 Heighten, then another from Easy MM, giving you a 3rd level spell in your 1st level slot.

Rinse.

Repeat.

[Crake]

Rary's Arcane Conversion tied to an Energy Transformation Field with feats Heighten Spell and Easy Metamagic (Heighten Spell).

Prep an Orison with Heighten spell into a 1st level slot, then bump it to a 2nd level spell with Easy MM.

Throw 6 spell levels of spells into Energy Transformation Field, proccing Rary's Arcane Conversion onto you, allowing you to re-prepare your 2nd level slot into a 1st level spell with 1 Heighten, then another from Easy MM, giving you a 3rd level spell in your 1st level slot.

Rinse.

Repeat.

That's definitely arguable, since heighten spell doesn't say it has a spell slot cost, merely that the spell requires you to prepare it in the same level slot as it's effective level. You could however, fix that issue by just using sanctum spell on it's own and designating the area in which the energy transformation field as your sanctuary (so while you're there the spell level is increased by 1).

The other arguable issue though is the way rary's arcane conversion is worded. The way it's worded refers to the level of the spell, not the slot it's prepared in. So if you had an orison heightened to 2nd level, you would at best be able to prepare a 2nd level spell. Applying heighten metamagic to it would increase it's level beyond 2nd level, making rary's arcane conversion not able to apply.

A way you could get around this is actually by having 2 energy transformation fields, one inside a sanctum, one outside. So you prepare your sanctumed 1st level spell. Inside the sanctum it's a 2nd level spell, so you prepare a 2nd level spell in it's place, you then move to the energy transformation field outside of your sanctum where you can prepare a sanctumed 3rd level spell (since outside of a sanctum, it's -1 spell level). You then move back into your sanctumed ETF, where it's a 4th level spell, rinse and repeat.

Do not though, that for this to work you DO need to have spells of appropriate levels, or at the very least, heighten spell to have spells of the correct spell levels. As for charging the field, I would recommend a reserve feat, since they have infinite uses, thus providing infinite charge to the field.

Neat trick to be honest, and yeah, it would function perfectly fine, you could most definitely cast the spell you ended up prepared with, though it would be at CL1, so it's effectiveness might not be so great. I mean sure, a CL1 shapechange is still pretty sweet (though your forms would be limited by your HD/CL, so :smallconfused:) Energy drain, as you said, would be a pretty sweet option, since at level 1, 2d4 neg levels is almost universally an instant kill.

This whole trick is incredibly arguable though, based on the fact that nothing in rary's arcane conversion lets you apply metamagic to the spells you prepare. "Light" is a spell, "Heightened Light" is not. Take a similar spell that refers to spells, Arcane Fusion, which explicitly allows you to apply a metamagic feat, and says to use the adjusted spell level instead of the spell's actual level (which normally would be higher, but in this case would be lower).

[sleepyphoenixx]

It doesn't work, because of this simple passage:

You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.
The passage in the SRD isn't all that clearly worded, but the one in the PHB has an example that pretty much removes any ambiguity.

The minimum CL for a wizard to cast a 9th level spell is 17. If you don't have CL 17 you can't cast a 9th level spell, even if you manage to prepare one.

The same applies to all other classes, even PrCs. The minimum CL is the one when you ordinarily gain access to the spell level in question with you class. Any lower than that and you can't cast the spell.

Note that this doesn't apply to heightened spells, so you can still cast a 1st level spell heightened to 9th with a CL of 1 (which is mostly relevant for early entry shenanigans). You just can't cast a 9th level spell without boosting your CL to 17 first.

As for raising CL, there's a handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444635-Raising-Caster-Level).

[Tedective]

That's definitely arguable, since heighten spell doesn't say it has a spell slot cost
It's got the big [Metamagic] around it, and every other metamagic (Even Fortify, the other X cost) has a listed adjustment to it.
Meh, Heighten will stay arguable and I can't sway it one way or the other.

But Reserve feats, nice idea, thanks! I was looking for a renewable resource to spam for levels, and that really works wonders, I'll take another look at magic items though to see if there's anything inexpensive and reusable throughout the day.

However... Rary's Arcane Conversion may not mention metamagics, but neither does Arcane Fusion, nor Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability, which literally moves your prepared spells into your familiar. If metamagics aren't part of the spell in ruling, then sending an Empowered Fireball to your familiar will just get it a Fireball in a 5th level slot.

I really like Sanctum Spell too, it was a close second in this build because the ETF never moves anyways. I just dislike how the only way of actually suing Sanctum Spell right is with having a spell of each level known. Great at high levels where you can afford it, because it then saves you a feat where a metamagic could be!

Additionally, if metamagics can work with Rary's Arcane Conversion, a bit of trivia for you. :smallsmile:

A 9th level spell can be converted to a 1st Level Ray of Flame with Empower Spell, Maximize Spell, and Repeat Spell for a grand total of... 0!
Ray of Flame does 1D6 per 2 caster levels, our dude has a CL of 1. :smallcool:

[Tedective]

It's night time.

[ben-zayb]

It doesn't work, because of this simple passage:

The passage in the SRD isn't all that clearly worded, but the one in the PHB has an example that pretty much removes any ambiguity.

The minimum CL for a wizard to cast a 9th level spell is 17. If you don't have CL 17 you can't cast a 9th level spell, even if you manage to prepare one.

The same applies to all other classes, even PrCs. The minimum CL is the one when you ordinarily gain access to the spell level in question with you class. Any lower than that and you can't cast the spell.

Note that this doesn't apply to heightened spells, so you can still cast a 1st level spell heightened to 9th with a CL of 1 (which is mostly relevant for early entry shenanigans). You just can't cast a 9th level spell without boosting your CL to 17 first.

As for raising CL, there's a handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444635-Raising-Caster-Level).
General rules citation needed. Despite what you houserule them to be, induction doesn'tautomatically apply unless otherwise stated.

[sleepyphoenixx]

General rules citation needed. Despite what you houserule them to be, induction doesn'tautomatically apply unless otherwise stated.

The example in the PHB under the (SRD) passage i quoted clears it up, as i said. I'm AFB so you'll have to look it up yourself.

[ben-zayb]

The example in the PHB under the (SRD) passage i quoted clears it up, as i said. I'm AFB so you'll have to look it up yourself.Example's aren't accurate with what's RAW, and nothing in RAW states specific examples are necessarily applied as general rules.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Example's aren't accurate with what's RAW, and nothing in RAW states specific examples are necessarily applied as general rules.

That's your argument? That a passage that basically says "in practice, the rule means this" isn't RAW? I'm not talking about a statblock or something (which are notoriously inaccurate). I'm talking about a clarification that's right with the actual rules text.
The statement from the SRD isn't all that clear on what "high enough to cast the spell in question" actually means, but i'd be interested to know how else you interpret it.
With the PHB clarifying things there's little doubt that the minimum CL for a spell level is the level that your casting class naturally gains access to it.

Saying "it isn't RAW" when the example is part of the rules text is equivalent to ignoring any part of the rules you don't like. It removes any basis for argument.

[ben-zayb]

That's your argument? That a passage that basically says "in practice, the rule means this" isn't RAW? I'm not talking about a statblock or something (which are notoriously inaccurate). I'm talking about a clarification that's right with the actual rules text. Of course it is. This is, afterall, something asked in a RAW subforum. Is it broken and not working as intended? Possibly. Again, I don't mind your houserules at all, but please don't confuse it with RAW.


The statement from the SRD isn't all that clear on what "high enough to cast the spell in question" actually means, but i'd be interested to know how else you interpret it. There's none by RAW, obviously, unless otherwise specified. Of course, in practice, I deal with it the same way many people deal with vague or completely dysfunctional RAW: houserules.

[Tedective]

broken

So there isn't any serious loophole I'm forgetting right? I can get the 9th level spell to fit into a 1st level slot? Greeaat.

As far as caster level though, I'd agree. As a wizard, you need a CL of 17 to cast 9th level spells, and a CL of 15 to cast 8th, 13 for 7th, and so on.

What I really want now, is ways to improve caster level. Practiced Spellcaster's nice.

Why am I still up?

[ben-zayb]

So there isn't any serious loophole I'm forgetting right? I can get the 9th level spell to fit into a 1st level slot? Greeaat.Not by RAW. For one, you still need to have INT 19. For two:

Like other spellcasters, a wizard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Wizard.At level 1, the table clearly points to "-" 9th level spells, so unless you can find an exception to that rule*, then you're out of lock.

* such as making deals with devils to gain a 9th-level Spell Slot or two.

[Crake]

However... Rary's Arcane Conversion may not mention metamagics, but neither does Arcane Fusion

Yeah it does. It has this to say on the matter: "If applying a metamagic feat to a spell, use the adjusted spell level and casting time for purposes of determining eligibility for arcane fusion." So if your hieghtened spell gets +2 levels, but only +1 spell level adjustment, it's treated, for arcane fusion anyway, as original spell level +1, not +2.

[Tedective]

"If applying a metamagic feat to a spell, use the adjusted spell level and casting time for purposes of determining eligibility for arcane fusion."

Been looking everywhere for that quote, appears in D&D Tools but not Complete Mage.

Was it errata or the same bull that happens to D&D Wiki from time to time?

And even then, when you apply a metamagic to a spontaneously casted spell (Arcane Fusion's exclusively Sorcerer), it moves the cast time up to a full round action.
Moving spell levels up is only possible in this sense with prepared casters, specifically wizard.
Arcane Fusion's only possible with Sorcerer.

TLDR: No mention in Complete Mage's description on metamagic. Page 96.

Edit: Found it in Complete Mage Errata on Scribd.

Oh. The quote still doesn't mention that you are or are not allowed to apply a metamagic feat to a spell, it automatically assumes yes.

This leads me to believe the errata was meant more for the casting time adjustment than the spell level adjustment, or even the go ahead to use metamagics at all.

Though every other spell (RAC, IFwSA, Spell Engine, etc.) makes no mention of metamagics being allowed in swapping, neither does Arcane Fusion still! AF may provide additional rules to the qualifications of metamagics, but it still doesn't say yes or no, but just implies yes. And if by not mentioning metamagics in a swap that they're banned, then they're /still/ banned in Arcane Fusion and the errata is meaningless.

[Crake]

Yeah, you'd be right that implication is that it can be done normally. Since that's an errata to the spell though, I'd personally include that as an errata for any effect that works with spell levels and the like, since it otherwise breaks things as this thread evidences :smalltongue: